Jesus cannot be divine for he himself has confessed he cannot tell the future
Debate Rounds (3)
Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
In the above the "God of Israel" is the one who is speaking (Isa 41:17), but just to make sure there is no doubt as to who is speaking in the above text, let"s turn to another portion of Isa which gives us two names of this God who is able to predict future events:
Isa 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
Isa 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.
Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
So who is "the God of Israel" and "the Lord of hosts" as spoken of in the above verses who claims to be able to inherently foretell the future? Is it Jesus? If you say yes, I must conclude that you do not know your Bible very well, for "the Lord of hosts" and "the God of Israel" above is the Father of Christ (and of all of us Christians as well). I will now move into the NT in order to prove that the above God who can predict the future, "the Lord of hosts", "the God of Israel" is indeed the Father.
First off in the NT Jesus himself has told us in plain English that he does not even know the time of his coming as seen in two places Mt 24:36 and Mk 13:32. This inability of his to foretell the future events certainly is not a quality of true Divinity is it? So based upon what Jesus clearly confessed in Mt 24:36 and Mk 13:32 of not being able to foretell even the hour of his coming, who then can be the true God of Isa 41:23 and 48:1-3, is it Christ? Jesus cannot be "the Lord of hosts" and "the God of Israel" spoken of in Isa 41:23 and Isa 48:1-3 above, for not only has Jesus denied being able to tell us the hour of his coming in the future, but he has clearly revealed the name of the true God who is able to actually tell the future events and this God is the Father as seen in Acts 1:7 below:
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
As we have already seen from Isa, a true deity must be able to predict the future inherently (Isa 41:23 and Isa 48:1-3), this gift cannot be given to him otherwise we could then conclude that all the prophets of the Bible (and all time) such as Isaiah and Jeremiah are truly divine, for these gentlemen foretold the destruction of Israel with accuracy did they not? However, what we are seeing in the above verses is that Christ himself is utterly refuting the ability to know the future on his own power. As the reader can now deduce for himself based upon the above texts alone we have just studied , the God of Isa 41:23 and Isa 48:1-3 "the Lord of hosts" and "the God of Israel", who is able to accurately predict the future must indeed be the Father.
Yet there are some at this point who will resist this claim and assert that Jesus only denied being able to tell the future as seen in the above NT verses, simply because he was in his human form. Well, this would be quite a stretch! For let"s remember that just before Christ had confessed what he did in Acts 1:7 above, he had also told his disciples that:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Yet it is clear from what we have already studied that "all power" had not been given to him, that is, at least the power to inherently foretell the future of which makes a god a true divine God. For we read that well after Christ had ascended and had been glorified by the Father (Acts 3:13) and his face shown like the sun (Rev 1:14-16), he came back to John on Patmos and revealed yet once again to humanity that he is still unable, even in his glorified state, to predict the future on his own power, for we read in Rev 1:1 the following:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (CAPITALIZATION IN ABOVE VERSE MY EMPHASIS)
Therefore, unless the readers can offer me stronger evidence contrary to what has been given above. Showing Jesus claimed somewhere in the Bible to have the inherent ability to foretell the future as a God must be able to do in order to be considered a true God, I must conclude the following: that Christ is not a divine God. Now if this is true that Christ is not a divine God then we can also correctly conclude as well that the doctrines of the Trinity, Tri-theism, Bi-theism, and Modalism are all indeed false doctrines. That in fact there is only one true God as Christ himself has told us there is as is seen in John 17:3, and that is the Father!
One last thing, before you pick up this argument, I ask that you to declare what doctrine of God you believe in. Are you a classic Trinitarian? Do you believe in Modalism or Tri-theism? If you are a Trinitarian you cannot simply merge the so called "personalities of the godhead" as you call them, when it suits your doctrine. The Bible clearly separates the Father from Christ as from the angels etc. If you use OT or NT Bible verses we must look in the direct context of those verses and define what the name of the God is who is speaking in them. We cannot logically just take verses here and there and simply ignore the name of the deity that is speaking in them. Do we not need to follow the rule of "context is king"?
Isa 41:23 "Shew the things that are to come hereafter, THAT WE MAY KNOW THAT YE ARE GODS: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together." (Capitalization emphasis mine)
Now in the first round of this debate we also offered strong evidence that the God above who claims that he can tell the future "the Lord of hosts" is in reality the Father. We substantiated this assertion by going to the NT and comparing the above verse (Isa 41:23) to what Jesus stated concerning his Father as seen below in Acts 1:7:
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, WHICH THE FATHER HATH PUT IN HIS OWN POWER. (Capitalization emphasis mine)
As the readers can see, a simple comparison of both verses above yields a fair conclusion that the God who spoke in Isa 41:23 must be the Father. Yet some readers at this point may continue to deny that foretelling the future is what makes one truly divine, or proves that one is truly God. And because this doubt may still exist, we respond to it with the following commentary from well-known and respected Bible theologian Albert Barnes, who states the following about Isa 41:23:
"That we may know that ye are gods - THE PREDICTION OF FUTURE EVENTS IS THE HIGHEST EVIDENCE OF OMNISCIENCE, AND OF COURSE OF DIVINITY. In this passage it is admitted that if they could do it, it would prove that they were worthy of adoration; and it is demanded, THAT IF THEY WERE GODS THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE SUCH A PREDICTION AS WOULD DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY WERE INVESTED WITH A DIVINE NATURE." (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible) (Capitalization emphasis mine)
Many Christians know that we indeed can be partakers of the divine nature (2Pt. 1:4), but the divinity spoken of by Mr. Barnes above must be an intrinsic type of divinity. For he tells us above that when one has the type of divine nature spoken of in Isa 41:23, one can inherently reveal the future and that being able to predict events to come is what truly defines one as God! Now for added emphasis to what Barnes just put forth above, I would like you to read another commentary on Isa 41:23, this one coming from yet another distinguished theologian named Matthew Henry, who tells us below that:
"He has an infallible foresight. He would not only do this, but he did now, by his prophet, foretel it. Now the false gods not only could not do it, but they could not foresee it. (1.) HE CHALLENGES THEM TO PRODUCE ANY OF THEIR PRETENDED DEITIES, OR THEIR DIVINERS, that had given notice of this, or could (Isa 41:26): "Who has declared from the beginning any thing of this kind, or has told it before-time? Tell us if there be any that you know of, for we know not any; if there be any, we will say, He is righteous, he is true, his cause is just, his claims are proved, and he is in the right in demanding to be worshipped." This agrees with Isa 41:22, Isa 41:23. (2.) HE CHALLENGES TO HIMSELF THE SOLE HONOUR OF DOING IT AND FORETELLING IT (Isa 41:27) (Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible) (Capitalization emphasis mine)
After reading the above commentary we note that it plainly echoes much of what Barnes" statement put forth previously. Before moving on, let"s hear from just one more testimony concerning Isa 41:23 offered by the Seventh-day Adventist church"s commentary series on the Bible. We read in volume 4 of this set the following regarding Isa 41:23:
"But only God can actually tell the future." (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 4, p. 253)
The above testimonies have provided us with some of the most damning evidence which utterly refutes the Trinity doctrine (and all other polytheistic dogmas). These very statements issued by these theologians above, along with Jesus' own words denying the ability to inherently predict future events, all reveal that Christ cannot be divine; he simply cannot be God as the Bible defines divinity! I would like to now however, take all that we have been learning of here to yet another level. We have already offered strong Biblical evidence that to be truly divine one must be inherently able to predict the future. But now, the same God who has laid out this clear principle for us to follow in Isa 41:23 has also told us unequivocally as well that THERE IS NO OTHER GOD IN THE UNIVERSE who can predict the future besides him. If this is indeed true, then this standard would then not only eliminate Christ from being God, but also the "holy spirit" who has also been placed on the same level as the Father! Let"s read below what the true God states about all this in Isa 46:9, 10:
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and THERE IS NONE LIKE ME,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Capitalization emphasis mine)
In other words readers, what we have discovered up to this point is that not only has the Father put in his own power the ability to predict the future (Acts 1:7), but he additionally tells us above and in no uncertain terms that he is the ONLY God in the universe who can do so! The above declaration seen in Isa 46:9, 10 which is exclusive at its core, entirely eliminates the possibility of a so called "role play" (taken from Greek philosophy) among the alleged Trinity. Were there any such thing as a "role play" God would be lying above and God cannot lie (Heb. 6:8)! Now at this point since I received no real significant argument from my challenger in his last retort, I will end this round of the debate with a verse of which we have already read. The following, compared to the above verse will help us substantiate that the deity speaking in the above (Isa 46:9,10) is indeed the Father. Acts 1:7 states:
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, WHICH THE FATHER HATH PUT IN HIS OWN POWER. (Capitalization emphasis mine)
Regarding Acts 1:7 above Matthew Henry, whom we have already heard from, states the following:
"The knowledge of it is reserved to God as his prerogative; IT IS WHAT THE FATHER HATH PUT IN HIS OWN POWER; it is hid with him. NONE BESIDES can reveal the times and seasons to come. Known unto God are all his works, but not to us, Act 15:18. IT IS IN HIS POWER, AND IN HIS ONLY, to declare the end from the beginning; AND BY THIS HE PROVES HIMSELF TO BE GOD, Isa 46:10. (Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible) (Capitalization emphasis mine)
Please read the above once again and take special note that "none besides" the Father can predict what is to come. In summary up to this second round, is what I am arguing for being strongly substantiated so far here? Is Jesus divine readers? Is he a God like the Father? Although many Christians claim that Christ is divine, we must concede that the evidence which has been offered here from the Bible totally challenges this very belief held by so many, it plainly reveals that he is not God!
My opponent seems to have accepted my definition since he never gave his own, and he never challenged my definition. Because of my new definition, my opponent must now prove that Jesus is neither delightful nor excellent, since he has the BoP.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, which was, and is, and is to come.
Albert Barnes comments below on the Lord God Almighty spoken of above:
"Lord God Almighty - Isaiah Isa 6:3 expresses it, "YAHWEH OF HOSTS." The reference is to THE TRUE GOD, and the epithet Almighty is one that is often given him. (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible) (Capitalization mine)
Theologian Adam Clarke in his observations regarding the Lord God Almighty of Rev 4 quotes the Schoettgen seen below:
""and each has six wings: with two they cover their face lest they should see the face of the shechina; with two they cover their feet lest they should find out the footstool of the shechinah; and with two they fly, and sanctify his great name. And they answer each other, saying Holy, holy, holy, LORD GOD OF HOSTS; the whole earth is full of his glory." (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible) (Capitalization mine)
These two learned gentlemen above testify that it is the Lord of hosts sitting on the throne in Rev 4. This is the same one and only God who can prophesy the future. Now if the readers assert that the Lord of hosts is Christ we must ask how could this be true? For we read in the very next chapter (Rev 5) of Jesus entering the same throne room the Lord of hosts has been in, and we see below that Christ actually takes the book out of the hand of the Lord of hosts:
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 AND HE CAME AND TOOK THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM THAT SAT UPON THE THRONE.
It would be quite a stretch indeed for Biblical scholars to persuade us that the Lord of hosts is Jesus based upon what we have just read in Rev 4 and 5 above! At this point, let"s now move on to the book of Dan and offer even more compelling evidence regarding the identity of this one and only God who is able to foretell future events. Listen to what Daniel states below about a God, not multiple gods, but A God who is able to reveal a dream king Nebuchadnezzar had regarding the future:
Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Daniel then states:
Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
Dan 2:21 AND HE CHANGETH THE TIMES AND THE SEASONS: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
As the readers may have already noted, verse 21 above sounds much like Acts 1:7. This was the very text in which Jesus plainly affirmed that the Father is the only God who knows the future times and seasons. But can we find the exact name Daniel applies to this God above who can reveal happenings yet to transpire? Yes, for right after the above texts we read:
Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou GOD OF MY FATHERS, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
Daniel tells us above that this deities name is the "God of my Fathers". Now where in the Bible can we uncover the identity of this divine being? The NT provides strong evidence unveiling who he is for we read in Acts 3:
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS, HATH GLORIFIED HIS SON JESUS; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
From the above verse it is evident that the "God of our fathers" is the one who "glorified his son". We are also told this same idea once again later on in Acts:
Act 5:30 The GOD OF OUR FATHERS RAISED UP JESUS, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Above we see that the "God of our fathers" is indeed the one who both glorified and "raised up Jesus". Having these facts in hand, we can now come to the logical conclusion that the "God of our fathers" must be none other than the Father? Why? Well not only do the above verses reveal this very thing, but the NT states over 30 times that the Father raised up Christ from the dead! Having now uncovered the identity of the God of Daniel who reveals "the times and the seasons", and makes known "what shall be in the latter days", let's turn to our last evidence substantiating from the Bible who this God is of whom the Bible declares is only being able to inherently reveal the future. Note first off in the following that the God spoken of in Acts 17 appoints the future events as they are about to happen:
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, AND HATH DETERMINED THE TIMES BEFORE APPOINTED, and the bounds of their habitation;
Will the texts above be in line with what we have already learned so far? Yes indeed they will for in verse 31 of the same chapter (Acts 17), Paul discloses to us that the God above actually raised Jesus from the dead:
Act 17:31 BECAUSE HE HATH APPOINTED A DAY, IN THE WHICH HE WILL JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, IN THAT HE HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.
Obviously it is the Father who raised Christ up. Yet, we have even more compelling evidence revealing the identity of the God spoken of above in Acts 17, for if we return to vs. 24 above Paul actually provides us with another name of this deity. There we see that he is referred to as the "Lord of heaven and earth". Jesus revealed to us that this God is unquestionably his Father (Luk 10:21, 22; Mt. 11:25-27).
In summary, have I successfully argued my conclusion contained in the very title of this debate? Is Jesus divine, is he a true God as the Father is? You may still claim he is. The great creeds which have been penned since the council of Nicaea which uphold him as a "coequal" and on the same level with God the Father may also assert he is. However, the inherent quality the Bible and Lord of hosts tell us which makes one a true God, the ability to accurately predict the future events, is simply and plainly not a quality that Jesus possesses. We must therefore come to the irresistible conclusion that what Jesus himself stated is true. Specifically, that there is only one true divine God (Jon 17;3) and he is the Father.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con played semantics, so conduct to pro. But, pro did not challenge the definition, so it's deemed accepted, do argument to con.
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