Jesus christ is NOT God
Debate Rounds (3)
i have some points that shows Jesus cant be the God according to the bible & Quran, i will try to give not too much unless it will be too long and boring to read...
1> if God cannot be tempted by evil, how Jesus was tempted if he was God?
"For God cannot be tempted by evil."
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."
The Bible never says that Jesus’ “human nature” was tempted, it says “Jesus” was tempted. Nowhere does it say that “part” of Jesus was tempted; it was “all” of him. If Jesus is God, this is a clear contradiction. Fortunately, Jesus is the human Son of God, so there is no contradiction.
2> If Jesus is God, why does he pray to God and call Him “the only true God”?
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jesus Christ makes a clear distinction between “the only true God” and himself. Jesus called his Father “the only true God,” and that doesn’t leave any room for Jesus to also be “God.”
3> If Jesus is God, why did he say to his disciples: “Trust in God; trust also in me”?
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”
Jesus didn’t say “the Father,” he just said “God.” and Jesus once again makes a clear distinction between himself and God.
4> If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only
God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.
5>if Jesus is God, how can he couldnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?
In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.
Examples of God in old testment:
I [am] God Almighty.
that I [am] the LORD your God.
for I [am] thy God.
Examples of Jesus in new testment:
6> why Jesus denying divinity?
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
clear cut proof of Jesus himself refusing even the quality of Goodness (Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good).
7> How come Jesus is God and he was given power & authority?
God is all-powerful and is independent unlike Jesus, does not own any power or any authority, rather it is given to him from God.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God
“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Luke 22:41 & 42
"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless, not my will, but thine, be done."
THE SAME IDEA IS REPEATING IN MANY VERSES...
8> If Jesus is God how he pray to God?
its not making sense yeah?
"'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
Quran gives us reasons why Jesus is not God by approching in a way of reasoning here some:
1> "Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).
eatting food causing everybody to excrete, and who ever eat food he is depended. its not befitting of the qualities of God.
2> Quran conforms (like the bible) that jesus never said "worship me" & worship the only true god your lord and mine.
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so serve Him alone. This is the straight way.'
3> God begotting a son not befitting of the qualities of God almighty
They say: "Allah hath begotten a son": Glory be to Him, nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
1. Jesus could not have been God because He was tempted.
2. Jesus wasn't God because He prayed to the Father.
3. Jesus told His disciples to trust in God the Father and also in Him.
4. If Jesus was God, how did He not know what hour He would return?
5. You argue Jesus never claimed to be God.
6. You claim Jesus denied his divinity.
7. Jesus should already have power and authority.
As an introduction, I would like to first state that you believe in the Quran, a book written nearly 700 years after Jesus' death. This book claims that Jesus never died, despite the innumerable historical accounts that claims He did. These accounts were written by Jewish scholars, Roman Historians, individuals who converted to Christianity (Probably the most reliable and valid as they later became martyrs for what they believed, as well as many others)
There is not one educated ancient historian in this whole world who denies that Jesus died. They all agree that He died, regardless of whether they believe what He said was true or not.
On top of this, Mohammed saw Jesus as a 'great teacher' who was a prophet, but not God, and furthermore claimed that the Bible had been edited or changed over time. Firstly, one cannot take some of Jesus' teachings and not the rest.
Jesus was one of these three:
1. A mad person who deceived all of mankind.
2. God, as He claimed to be.
You cannot say that Jesus was a great teacher, but not divine as He claimed to be divine. You either take all of His teachings or you take none of them. (John 8:58)
John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
'I am' was God's title all throughout the Old Testament, shown clearly in Exodus 3:14
"14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, "I am has sent me to you."
Following this statement of identification, the Jewish leaders were about to stone Him as it says in the next verse.
John 8:59 "At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
Why would they want to stone Him? Simply because they knew exactly what He was claiming. He was claiming to be the Son of God.
1. Now I want to note that one of the main points you make is Jesus could not have been tempted. What you are saying is that Jesus can't be both God and man, though throughout the scriptures, we see that that is the case. Jesus was tempted because He was a human being, yet it was not possible for Him to sin because He is God Himself. The act of temptation is not sin, rather it is something experienced by humans naturally. Jesus is commonly identified as the 'Son of Man', as well as being called God in John 1:1-14. Jesus was not just a man. Jesus was God.
Think of H20. H20 comes in three forms: ice, water and steam. Ice is H20, water is H20, and steam is H20.
Ice is not water, nor is water steam, nor is ice steam. They are all separate but exactly the same at the same time.
Another example is a dice. If I were to ask you what one side was and you said 'the side with 6 on it', and then I asked you what another side was and you said 'it is the side with 5 on it', what you are really saying is that a dice has more than one side. Every single side is part of the dice, but the sides are not each other. They are not the same, as they are different though contribute to the dice as a whole.
(See this for further information: http://carm.org...)
2. Jesus prayed to God the Father because He and the Father are separate. Just as Jesus is separate from the Holy Spirit, God the Father and God the Son are separate. They are all God, same in nature, but different in person. They are three different identities of the same nature. Jesus claimed to forgive sins, Jesus was praised and worshiped by men
Mark 2:55 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven."6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He"s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Every Jewish person living in that day knew that only God could forgive sins, therefore Jesus was attesting to His deity by claiming He could forgive sins. If He weren't, the people there would not have gotten so angry and tried to kill Him!
You cannot take some parts of the Bible and reject others. You either take it as a whole or don't take it at all. It says in Revelation 3:16 that God opposes the lukewarm and will 'spit them out'; in other words they will not be saved.
3. With the Trinity in mind, God the Father and God the Son interact with each other. They are in a relationship, just as the Holy Spirit is in this divine, eternal trinity. All three are of exactly the same nature, though are different in person. Jesus was fully man and fully God, as it claims in the Bible in Colossians 1:15, which says Jesus was the creator of the world. The only way you can possibly reconcile this is if you admit that Jesus was actually God. He was God as well as man.
5. Jesus did claim to be God. Read this: http://www.gotquestions.org...
6. Jesus never denied His divinity when He said 'No one is good but God alone', He was simply stating the fact that God is 'good'. Furthermore, He claims to be good later on John 10:11, when Christ calls himself the 'Good Shepherd who lays his life down for His sheep'. Jesus claimed to be the 'Way, the Truth, and the Life', He said 'No one comes to the Father except through me'. You cannot take some of Jesus' teaching and reject the rest.
8. Jesus prayed to God the Father because He is in a relationship with the Father. They are both God, but separate persons. They communicate with each other. What is your problem with that?
Jesus had to eat, drink, sleep, and do everything a human would do. He was God though, so he never sinned
Welcome Con, lets begin
In your introduction you said:
1. Quran is written nearly 700 years after Jesus death.
2.Quran claims Jesus never died and historical accounts claims He did.
1 - its doesnt really matter whether its after 700 years or million years, becuase if God (as muslims believe) says something, its always true. but to convice you i using the Bible.
2- Quran 4:157
...but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture...
so its doesnt matter the innumerable historical accounts because its only "made to appear to them".
Jesus was one of these three:
1. A mad person who deceived all of mankind.
2. God, as He claimed to be.
You cannot say that Jesus was a great teacher, but not divine as He claimed to be divine. You either take all of His teachings or you take none of them. (John 8:58)
- Why he must to be God or mad/lair? why not consider him as a mighty prophet of God? (CON -"He claimed to be divine") he never claimed to be a God/Divine, if he did, qoute Jesus.
> Jesus saying ""before Abraham was born, I am":
Before Exodus 3:14, lets go back to verse 3:13:
13 "Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."
in Hebrow its says "i will be what ever i will be". its not " I Am". Hebrow -אהיה אשר אהיה
"(אהיה/i will be) /that/which/who/אשר )". (and yes i know hebrow).
the problem is must translations say "i Am" instead of "i will be". in the context we see that when Moses (pbuh) asked he replied "Im what ever im".
nevertheless, the word "im" in Exodus 3:14 and what Jesus said is not the same word (in Greek EGO EIMI & HO ON). If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. now lets examine what Jesus said.
How many people existed before Abraham? In the Bible Jeremiah being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. when Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am", he was existing in the knowledge of God, everybody were there.
why the jews want to stone Him?
because everything that Jesus said they took exception. for example - in John 10:30, when jesus said "i and my father are one" they took stones to stone him,blaming him to claim dvinity, but keep reading the next verses from 30 to 35 Jesus dismiss their allegation about claiming to be God.
1> CON - TRINITY EXPLAINED:
Quoting: "Jesus was tempted because He was a human being, yet it was not possible for Him to sin because He is God Himself."
- its not about sining, its about temptation - "For God cannot be tempted by evil.", yet Jesus was tempted by satan. i repeating my self, it says “Jesus” was tempted, Nowhere does it say that “part” of Jesus was tempted; it was “all” of him.
2>CON - They are all God, same in nature, but different in person. They are three different identities of the same nature.
Three distinct persons makes 3 distinct Gods, Jesus is not equal to The Father nor the holy Ghost, by their knowledge, power etc.. for example Jesus says -
"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."
God can do anything, Jesus cant.
CON - Jesus claimed to forgive sins (1), Jesus was praised (2) and worshiped by men (3).
1 - Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”
The queastion is from where Jesus get this power/authority to forgive sins?
that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee...
God own all power, and its given to Jesus its not his.
2 - Every prophet was praised.
3 - NOBODY WORSHIP JESUS IN THE SENSE GOD BEING WORSHIPED AND NEVER TAUGHT TO WORSHIP HIM.
he always glorifies the Father the True God. for example:
king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel...
so Daniel did NOT reject the worship that was given to him, He did not rebuke the king, he did nothing, he accepted the worship, so therefore Daniel is God...
There is no clear statemnet about the Trinity in the bible, the nearest passage is 1 John 5:7:
"there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - is a fabrication and thrown out of the Bible by 32 CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS OF THE HIGHEST EMINENCE.
Qouting "Colossians" you just qouting Pual. Pual never saw Jesus in his life time so logicaly we looking upon the life of Jesus at his time and the people around him what they said and thought (accodring to the bible).
4> CON didnt reply.
5> Jesus never claimed to be a God, if he did, show us. reading some article from www.gotquestions.org dont give an answer, your task is very easy just quote 1 verse Jesus saying IM GOD OR WORSHIP ME.
6> In Luke 18:17 Jesus refuses to be called good in the way God is good. if he was God he should say IM GOOD! but the oppisite is happend. "Good Shepherd" doesnt mean God.
Every prophet was the "Way, the Truth, and the Life', & 'No one comes to the Father except through me'.
Because at every time the prophets were the only way to go God and to salvation, from Adam to Jesus (peace be upon them all).
7> CON didnt reply.
8> My problem is if Jesus was God he doesnt need anything. God praying to God make sense to you? i cant understand it if you do explain. Jesus was dependent on his father ALLWAYS.
having litte space here cant keep writing so back to you...
The Quran is a single book, recited by a single man, which contains contradicting scriptures to the Bible, offers a works-based salvation, and overall is incompatible with the Bible. If you believe the Bible is the word of God, then you can't also believe the Quran is. The Bible claims to be the complete canon of Scripture. Jesus Christ claimed to be the final atoning sacrifice that would complete the Scriptures. He claimed to be God.
Explain to me how the Quran is the inerrant word of God. Was it written by God? Was it written by Mohammed's prophets? How do we know it is reliable and true? If anything, it is one of the most historically inaccurate books we have surviving today due to it's erroneous, false and misleading historical claims.
Stop using the Bible as if it were divinely inspired by God while simultaneously claiming the Quran is the inspired word of God. They are both false, or one is true. They CAN'T both be true! You are contradicting yourself off the first statement.
Firstly, don't argue that Jesus didn't die. Not only is it infinitely irrational and illogical, but it is blandly ignorant in the eyes of any educated individual who knows anything about ancient history. Jesus Christ was killed on a Roman Cross in 33AD whether you like it or not. He did not 'fake it', no one took His place. He was killed. The Romans at the time (If you have any idea what ancient history recalls) were extremely brutal people who were dedicated to totalitarian control; or what they seemed to think they had. In order to do this, they killed Jesus Christ as He was seemingly a threat to their political system. They did not 'mistake' someone, nor did Jesus fake it.
You cannot fake a crucifixion. (https://www.youtube.com...) Use your logic to realize this.
The Bible is a compilation of 66 books written by 44 authors over a period of 1500 years containing thousands of thousands of prophesies that have been fulfilled. The
1. The Quran is written 700 years after and it is inconsistent with everything we know about God. The Bible is a historically accurate book written over a period of 1500 years containing thousands of prophesies that came true. (300 prophesies regarding Jesus and His death alone!) You cannot dismiss it as an unreliable book. It contradicts the whole Bible, it offers salvation based on works, and it proclaims a contrasting view of salvation. Either the Bible is true, or the Quran is true. They can't both be.
READ ISAIAH 53:6-12
This was written hundreds of years prior to the birth of Christ. Please explain who this is talking about if it isn't Christ.
Throughout the whole Old Testament, God is a Holy God who shows grace abundantly. (E.g. Story of Joseph, Jonah, Cain, Noah) You don't need to look very far to see that pre-Christ Judaism was not based on works but purely based on faith.
Secondly, you say that you are a Muslim and are referencing biblical scriptures as if they were true to you. Not only is this a contradiction of your orthodox beliefs as a Muslim, but you are affirming that the Bible is an inerrant book, and therefore implying it is the inspired word of God.
BEFORE ABRAHAM I AM
You claim that it means 'I will be' when that is not the correct translation whatsoever. What kind of Hebrew do you claim to know, because I can't see that you have any education in it whatsoever from that translation alone..
JESUS DISMISSES CLAIMS OF GOD?
-Jesus never dismisses being God. If anything, He supports the notion on every single incident possible which we see. For example, Matthew 28:9 reveals Jesus being worshipped, you saw that He forgave sins in my earlier message, and He had many other moments when He claimed deity. He said 'I and the Father are One'. They are either both God or He is crazy. The moment you change that doctrine, you are effectively creating your own cult of Christianity or Islam and condemning yourself in the act. Please don't do this.
JESUS IS GOD
You assume Jesus isn't God to begin with! Of course Jesus couldn't have sinned like you said, but what you are saying is that God cannot be man and God at the same time. You have no basis for this, and are using your brain as the decider of what is true and what isn't.
John 5:18 "For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
Considering you are using the Christian scriptures to answer questions, I will use them all the more considering you see them as true (Obviously!).
John 1:1-3 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made...............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
JESUS WAS GOD! He either was God or He was a fraud altogether. He was not merely a prophet.
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death"
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
Jesus was the perfect Adam, always dependent on the Father as we should follow.
Reliance on the Father while on earth shows his love for us.
Thank you very much praying for me ^^ i praying back for you to find the true both of us, and im not an english man and im not claiming to be an excellent speaker/writer, but trust me i know english and i know the bible inside out. (also in hebrew for you).
Jesus was worshipped
Daniel was worshipped
I want to also say that I am not doing 'backflips' with my arguments as someone commented, rather I am using my brain to view the flaws in the questions asked before I answer them. This is not only the most effective means of debating, but resolves the need to answer the question because more than often the question is an invalid one.
Some articles describing Jesus' claim of divinity.
For the sake of this debate, read those articles above as I don't want to write 'irrelevant' arguments for my case in regards to Jesus being 'God', despite that is the topic which you listed as being chosen.
If Muslims believe in the Christian Bible as a source of truth, isn't that claiming that it is the inerrant word of God? If not, then you are just taking the parts of the Bible that you like while discarding the others. You cannot use the words of Jesus but then invalidate the disciples' words who spent the majority of Christ's life with Him. The apostle John
Furthermore, you quote Matthew, Mark, Luke, and then tell me not to quote John as it wasn't Jesus' words? That is about as invalid as discrediting any part of the Bible that isn't a communication between God and humans. (Despite the fact the Bible claims to be the inerrant word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16) Also, something to note is that John not only wrote the book of John, but he co-authored the gospel of Mark. Please explain how his voicing is inaccurate or invalid.
Don't bring Catholicism into this debate. Catholocism is not Christianity. For a vast majority of reasons, including the adding of scriptures to the Bible, the addition of saints (Prayer to them), and the forgiveness of sins through works. (Not a supported Biblical practice.)
Do not ever bring Catholicism into this, you know it's irrelevant and it is not related to any extent.
DEATH OF JESUS
The death of Jesus is more than relevant to this debate, don't try and escape this simple truth.
It is relevant as you are claiming that you believe in the Quran over the Christian Bible. The Quran is not historically accurate regarding it's teachings of Jesus; it's as simple as that.
For example, if there is a major car accident on the highway, who would be the best people to talk to regarding what happened at the scene? Would it not be those present on the scene? What if someone was born 700 years later and claims that there wasn't ever a car crash there, despite 100's of reports that accurately depict the crash. This is precisely what you are arguing, hence it is of infinite relevance that we investigate the reliability of the Quran before trusting it at all.
WE AS LITTLE GODS?
Read this. It will explain it in depth as I don't have the space to answer it here. Jesus claimed to be equal with the father on an uncountable number of occasions; you just choose to reject it.
Do not ever say that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are more historically reliable than John. First of all, you said John was written 70-80 years after Jesus' death when it was written in 70AD (Merely 50 years after his death). For this alone, I could pinpoint you as writing historical inaccurate information. Secondly, John was written not only as a historical account but a theologically dense book that reveals who Jesus really was. While the first three Gospels focused on history to the depths, John was probably Jesus' closest disciple (The disciple that Jesus loves: He was His best friend) and therefore He was inspired to reveal not only what Jesus did, but who He was. John lived with Jesus for the majority of his ministry and was himself directly related to Jesus Christ. (First cousins)
JESUS ISN'T THE FATHER
You are true when you say Jesus isn't the Father. I agree with you. You are then going on to claim that Jesus isn't God.
Understand the trinity then you will understand how Jesus can be God. Jesus claimed to be alive prior to Abraham's birth. Furthermore, He claims that He has been forever. He just IS. You cannot refute this with a false translation.
Verses showing Jesus claiming deity:
(1) Col 1:15
(2) John 1:2
(3) 1Peter 3:15
(4) John 8:56-58
(5) John 12:44-46
(6) John 14:6-9
(7) Matthew 9:6-8
(8) John 8:23,24
(9) John 5:21-23
(10) John 11:25
(11) John 10:27,28
(12) John 6:40
(13) John 10:30-33
(14) John 6:35
(15) John 14:6
(16) John 8:12
(17) John 8:31,32
(18) John 10:10,27,28
(19) John 14:21
(20) Matthew 28:20
I hope that your heart is softened towards Jesus Christ and the errors of the Quran become evident to you.
I understand that you are very stubborn in your ways, though I know it would be of great value to assess the character of Jesus Christ and what He claimed to have been and done.
Read Isaiah 53 as well. You will see that Jesus Christ was prophesied to be killed. Jesus isn't a ruler who is arrogant, proud, or lacking in humbleness. You view the Messiah as a heroic figure that will defeat everyone; just as the Pharisees falsely believed. Open your heart to the humility, kindness, love, and compassion of Jesus and you will see that He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QURAN: Some helpful articles for you to read.
Read this article if you have time: http://carm.org...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Fruitytree 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made strong arguments proving that Jesus, wasn't God, Con didn't prove Jesus was God , it is very clear in the scriptures that Jesus was behaving and speaking like a messenger, not at all like God.
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