The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
sapere_aude
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Jesus decides who will be thrown in hell and who will be saved as per the Christian Bible

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/23/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 637 times Debate No: 87120
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (0)

 

CapAhab

Pro

Round 1 acceptance only (no arguments)
Round 2 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 3 - Rebuttals Only
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

Serious debate only.

hell definition
a place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.

Jesus definition
Jesus definition. A prophet of the first century of our era; to Christians, Jesus Christ, the son of God, a person who was both God and man, the Messiah sent by God to save the human race from the sin it inherited through the Fall of Man. The story of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem is called the Nativity.

Saved definition:
Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering (in hell)

The Christian Bible: Old and New Testament will be consider 100% inspired.
sapere_aude

Con

I accept your challenge to prove that Jesus is not the one who decides who goes to have and who goes to hell. I accept under the conditions of this argument that for arguments sake that the bible is 100% inspired by god. Jesus was the sacrifice for the redemption of human kind and the way to reach god. However, the power to decided who goes to have and who goes to hell in solely in the hands of God alone.
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

"I accept under the conditions of this argument that for arguments sake that the bible is 100% inspired by god. Jesus was the sacrifice for the redemption of human kind and the way to reach god. "

Even though I only believe in the Hebrew Bible, what you said will be used for this debate. The Old and New Testament is 100 % the word of the christian god.

First, let us look at Ephesians 1:4-5

According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

So here we have god choosing before the foundation of the world who will be a believe in Jesus.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8

And again we have god who predestined some to believe in Jesus.

And Jesus/the christian go predestined us (christian) for adobtion. Ephesian 1:5

On the other side of the coin, if the christian god chose who will believe in Jesus and who will be chosen for adoption, then the other side of the coin most be true. He did not chose the one who go to hell, thus you cannot come to be saved by accepting Jesus.

Look at John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. See... NO ONE CAN COME, that is the unbeliever who do not accept, the one that draws near are the one that are chosen before the foundation of the world.

So, basically, the few that believe in Jesus and are going to pass the eternity in Heaven with him were chosen by god not because of what they have done, but for an unknown reason to us. And those who do not believe in Jesus were simply not chosen, or in other word, god decided not to care about them! And what faith will attend them, hell? For a while, maybe, but worst, they will be thrown in the lake of fire forever and ever and ever. Thus the would not have been able to save themselves even if they would have like to.

Again in John 15:16, Jesus said "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed" So basically, someone might think that he chose Jesus, but Jesus chose him. And on the other side of the coin, did not choose the other. That is, if they keep on their unbelief until death. But if they change their mind, they were part of the elect who were written in the book of life. Revelation 13:8

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Roman 8:7

NOR CAN IT DO SO. So you have no power as a normal man to come to Jesus.

This is of course all according to the New testament, which I do not believe. The Hebrew Bible G-d asks people to come to Him and to repent, and people are able to do so..
sapere_aude

Con

The argument we are debating is if Jesus has the power to throw people into hell and decide who will go to heaven. In
Ephesians 1:4-5

According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Jesus is the mere instrument in which we are able to come to god. It is god alone that is the one that is choosing who will pick Jesus and who will not. Also concluding that it is not even our choice as individual"s weather or not we will go to heaven or hell since god has already decided our fate. My opponent"s argument here:

"On the other side of the coin, if the Christian god chose who will believe in Jesus and who will be chosen for adoption, then the other side of the coin most be true. He did not chose the one who go to hell, thus you cannot come to be saved by accepting Jesus."
cannot be further from the truth by not picking certain individuals he is banishing them from his presence, which is essentially hell.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9." The Lord will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Jesus is merely a means that god used to allow his chosen ones to come into his presence in heaven. Jesus is not able to decide the fate of humans but is merely a servant of god to achieve god"s plans.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is merely the gate not the judge of man"s fate.
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

Look at Ephesian 1:4-5

Because the christian god and Jesus are one in though and action, we can conclude that Jesus chose those who will be save.
I and the Father are one."
Look at John 15:16, it does not say "the father chose you", but "I (Jesus) chose you". Thus what Jesus chose, the father chose and what the father chose Jesus did as well!
You did not choose me, but I chose you (Jesus said that)
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. John 13:18
In him (JESUS) we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.. . Ephesians 1:11

"Jesus is not able to decide the fate of humans but is merely a servant of god to achieve god"s plans."

If all scriptures are inspired, Jesus chose and the father chose together.

"Jesus is merely the gate not the judge of man"s fate."
No, Jesus is the one who judges.
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, John 5:22
And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. John 5:27
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."John 9:29
He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead." Acts 17:31
I charge thee in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom...

It's clear Jesus is the one who chose those who are saved and he chooses those who will go to hell. He will judge them after deciding that he will not call them.
sapere_aude

Con

John 14:10
Believes thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, when ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

All of these verses suggest that Jesus and god are not the same, at the very least not completely the same person. Jesus says that god is greater than himself. That his actions and teachings are not from him but god. God may live in him but he is not fully god.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

These verses suggest that Jesus is the means in which god will judge the people. Jesus again is a tool that god uses to do his work but the decisions are made by god alone. They may be one, in that Jesus is the heart and god is the mind. However, it is the mind that makes decisions. The mind may be influenced by the heart but the mind is in full control. Jesus may sit on the judgement seat but everything he does he does only because god told him to.
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

"All of these verses suggest that Jesus and god are not the same"
This is a debate for another time, nevertheless Jesus is the one judging:

the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, John 5:22

Romans 2:16
by Jesus "christ"... that mean the christian god will use Jesus, who does all thing according to the father, to judge. So god gave judgment to Jesus and Jesus is the one judging.

John 5:30
Yes he judges according to what the father told him, but still the one judging. Just like judges judge according to the law of the country, but the judges are still judging.

"These verses suggest that Jesus is the means in which god will judge the people."
Jesus is the judge, the christian father is the one making the rules.

"Jesus may sit on the judgement seat but everything he does he does only because god told him to."
Jesus is in the judgement seat, so he is the one executing judgement and deciding who will go to hell. That is, after he decides who he will choose as believer, and on the other side, who he will reject and judge according to what the father said; and that's in other words hell and the lake of fire.
sapere_aude

Con

Jesus may sit on the judgement seat but god has already decided before creation.
Ephesians 1:4-5
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to son ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"

And Jesus does nothing of his own accord but simply is the one caring out the judgment in which god has already decided long ago.
John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

As I said, both god and Jesus chose us. John 15:16, Jesus said "You did not choose me, but I chose you...
Because both the father and Jesus chose us and both agree together, then Jesus, who also called himself god (see Revelation 22 and John1:1) decides who will accept him.

Thank you
sapere_aude

Con

In john 15:16 that is Jesus talking to his disciples saying to them that he chooses them as his followers. They did not choose him as a leader. Which does not have to do with their eternal destination.
Ephesians 1:4-5
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to son ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"
Again clearly shows that god and Jesus are two different people and Jesus is being an instrument of gods will. Here are more versus suggesting the difference between them. Either they are two separate people or the bible is to contradictory to be clear on its meaning. Either way god is the superior force in the trinity and is the decider of the fates of man"s eternal destiny even if he is deciding through his son Jesus Christ. Thank you.
Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.

Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sapere_aude 1 year ago
sapere_aude
it was good debating with you to:)
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
It was good debating with you. I agree the the NT is not inspired, and many verses seem to contradict one another...
Posted by matt8800 1 year ago
matt8800
Agreed but just about any Christian would disagree with that so as to remain a Christian.
Posted by sapere_aude 1 year ago
sapere_aude
That's more of a fact than a debate
Posted by sapere_aude 1 year ago
sapere_aude
That's more of a fact than a debate
Posted by matt8800 1 year ago
matt8800
A non-Christian could use this debate for another debate, "The Bible is full of inconsistencies".
Posted by sapere_aude 1 year ago
sapere_aude
very true and a point i made in one of my arguments
Posted by matt8800 1 year ago
matt8800
I was going to vote but the verses contradict each other so much, it was impossible to do so.
Posted by JOHNCENA1738 1 year ago
JOHNCENA1738
Someone needs to read Mark 13:32. How is Jesus the one that decides who is thrown into hell when he does not even know what time he is supposed to do it. Also it states that Jesus only condemns the Christians on what they have done in their past and then His part is done. God the Father, on the other hand, is the one that holds what is commonly refereed to as the Great White Throne Judgment. This Judgement determines those that are to be sent to hell. And everyone that did not accept Christ as their savior here on earth is doomed to the burning pit.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Hopefully my opponent will use your verses to prove his point and I can rebuke it :)
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