The Instigator
MesserMessesUpEverything
Pro (for)
The Contender
canyouguessmyusername
Con (against)

Jesus did not dismiss the Old Testment laws.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/17/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 239 times Debate No: 101090
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

MesserMessesUpEverything

Pro

first round accepting, Second argument, third rebuttal.

I claim the Old Testament laws should still be followed, if you are a follower of Jesus.
canyouguessmyusername

Con

My position is that the old covenant of the 10 commandments, and the laws in the old testament were broken by the Israelites, Jesus was the more excellent, better, covenant prophesied 600 BC, established upon better promises, that the old covenant was a shadow of things to come, and the old testament religion of Moses has not existed for 2000 years.

I do not believe anyone in the bible, including Abraham had special genes endowed to them by God, was genetically chosen or superior to anyone without those genes. I believe that Abraham was chosen to start a new religion, and anyone could convert into this religion at any time. So I reject any notion of racial or ethnic chosenness through out the entire old testament, and new testament. And I do not believe modern Judaism is a continuation of the Moses religion of the old testament.

In The book of Jeremiah written around 600 BC it was prophesied:

Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Prophecy confirmed 600 years later in 1st century AD:

Hebrews 8King James Version (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A *new covenant*, he hath made the first *old*. Now that which *decayeth* and *waxeth old* is ready to *vanish away*.

* above for emphasis.

In Exodus 19 written about 1400 BC to the Mosaic Israelites

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

In 1 Peter 2:9 Written 1st century AD to believers of the new covenant. The same language is used about a holy nation to show, since the covenant change of Jesus anyone who now believes in Jesus has the same status as the ancient Israelites did in their old religion:

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And:

Matthew 22:37-40King James Version (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments *hang all the law and the prophets.*

The law, and prophets being the 10 commandments, and laws in the old testament, and the prophets being the ones who spoke, and wrote those things.

And

Galatians 3:29

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Debate Round No. 1
MesserMessesUpEverything

Pro

(Here is my argument)

Here are actual quotes from Jesus, to support my claim:

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

Note: When Jesus said "until all things have taken place." In (Matthew 5:17), he is referring to the rapture.

When Jesus was criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating, Jesus defended himself by telling them that they follow the tradition of the elders and not the commandments of God. Jesus said "For God said 'honor your father and your mother.' And 'whoever curses father or mother shall die."(Matthew 15:4), this is an Old Testament law.

It seems clear, Jesus wanted us to follow the Old Laws, for they are from God, and no law will pass until all is done.

It was Paul who thought the Old Testament should pass after Jesus had come. But, Jesus was more on the side of keeping the Old Testament till the end of times.

Here is a Christian website that supports what I have claimed. https://carm.org...

I am quoting Jesus, not what Paul wrote.

If Canyouguessmyusername would. Please, give me quotes from Jesus, saying when he sacrifices himself to save us, the Old Testament will pass as well.
canyouguessmyusername

Con

Hey. I read the comments about the first round being for accepting the debate, and the second round being for the arguments so I will copy paste my original comment here:

My position is that the old covenant of the 10 commandments, and the laws in the old testament were broken by the Israelites, Jesus was the more excellent, better, covenant prophesied 600 BC, established upon better promises, that the old covenant was a shadow of things to come, and the old testament religion of Moses has not existed for 2000 years.

I do not believe anyone in the bible, including Abraham had special genes endowed to them by God, was genetically chosen or superior to anyone without those genes. I believe that Abraham was chosen to start a new religion, and anyone could convert into this religion at any time. So I reject any notion of racial or ethnic chosenness through out the entire old testament, and new testament. And I do not believe modern Judaism is a continuation of the Moses religion of the old testament.

In The book of Jeremiah written around 600 BC it was prophesied:

Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Prophecy confirmed 600 years later in 1st century AD:

Hebrews 8King James Version (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A *new covenant*, he hath made the first *old*. Now that which *decayeth* and *waxeth old* is ready to *vanish away*.

* above for emphasis.

In Exodus 19 written about 1400 BC to the Mosaic Israelites

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

In 1 Peter 2:9 Written 1st century AD to believers of the new covenant. The same language is used about a holy nation to show, since the covenant change of Jesus anyone who now believes in Jesus has the same status as the ancient Israelites did in their old religion:

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And:

Matthew 22:37-40King James Version (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments *hang all the law and the prophets.*

The law, and prophets being the 10 commandments, and laws in the old testament, and the prophets being the ones who spoke, and wrote those things.

And

Galatians 3:29

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Intolerant_Liberal 10 months ago
Intolerant_Liberal
He didn't dismiss them, He fulfilled them. We don't have to live by law, but by grace. There is a difference.
Posted by MesserMessesUpEverything 10 months ago
MesserMessesUpEverything
Greetings, emk24. I'm assuming you are addressing me. If not, don't mind this. This debate is not for the legitimacy of the Bible. It's about, if Jesus was for the Old Testament laws, according to what the Bible claims.
Posted by MesserMessesUpEverything 10 months ago
MesserMessesUpEverything
Hello, Capitalistslave. I will show you, in my argument that I will be posting shortly.

I hope Canyougeussmyusername? Sees this. The first round is just accepting, the second round is for the argument, and third round is for rebuttals or counter arguments. If your first round was your argument, you may copy and past it in the second round. I would like to keep this well organized and simple for all to read.
Posted by emk24 10 months ago
emk24
If you say you don't believe anyone in the bible, how can you say that they are "laws", and believe what the scripture says that you use for your argument as facts? How can you believe the people that wrote it and are also included and mentioned in the bible parables as well?
Posted by emk24 10 months ago
emk24
If you say you don't believe anyone in the bible, how can you say that they are "laws", and believe what the scripture says that you use for your argument as facts? How can you believe the people that wrote it and are also included and mentioned in the bible parables as well?
Posted by Capitalistslave 10 months ago
Capitalistslave
How do you even know the old testament laws just weren't there in place specifically for Israelites? After all, it was Israelites who received them, and no one else.
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