The Instigator
left_wing_mormon
Pro (for)
Winning
27 Points
The Contender
theaceb
Con (against)
Losing
18 Points

Jesus had liberal veiws

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/5/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,769 times Debate No: 3094
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (15)

 

left_wing_mormon

Pro

I WILL NOT AFFILIATE JESUS CHRIST WITH ANY POLITICAL PARTY. I WILL NOT SPEAK FOR CHRIST.

This is only really to point out some of his teachings that according to todays standards are "Liberal". I don't want anyone to say he IS a liberal or he IS a conservitive (repulican, democrat, socialist, nazi, communist,ect.) Jesus Christ, in my humble opinion is so far above our political spectrum.

However, his teachings at a whole scale level seem to lean to the left, only by American modren standards. Peace and Tolerance seem to be a reoccuring theme with Christ. As well helping the poor and turning the other cheek.

I will make my case as soon as someone decides to start this debate with me.

Lets keep this respectful. No name calling, swearing, attacking. This will be a very peaceful discusion. Thank You.
theaceb

Con

I agree with your statement that Jesus was far above political views. I'm almost certain he wasn't involved or cared about politics in his day or would in our day either. Also theres no way you could compare politics today in the U.S. to politics in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.

Ok so for sake of the debate let's assume he had political views that are based on his teachings (I'll exclude government spending issues because I wouldn't imagine Jesus ever thought about what role government should play in people's lives). I would still say socially and culturally he would not to a liberal "by American modern standards." I say this because he lived in a time of extreme Jewish orthodoxy where it was government law that adulteresses should be stoned, and certain criminals could be eligible for torture and crucifixion.

As we know Jesus went against the "stoning adulteresses" law, which would have been considered liberal or leftist at the time. However "by American modern standards" I think you would be hard pressed to find any significant political ideology that believes in stoning adulteresses or anybody for that matter.

We also know that he spoke out against the corruptness of tax collectors. Once again "by American modern standards" this would neither be classified as left, right, socialist, libertarian, fascist (etc.). No significant political ideology believes that tax collectors should be able to be corrupt and keep tax money.

There's a whole host of other things Jesus said that could be considered "progressive" in his time, but would not be considered specifically left wing or any political position in our modern day.

Now were Jesus alive today and had political views, would he support such left wing social issue positions as gay marriage, abortion, drug legalization, gun control (etc.). Most of these issues you of course could not say because guns, modern drugs and contraceptives didn't exist in his time so he never said anything regarding them.

The very idea of birth control didn't exist back then (except in isolated instances such as Cleopatra in Egypt) so if you were found pregnant and were married you kept the baby, and if you were unmarried you were killed. Those were the only two options, unless you did it in secret, the option of using contraceptives or having an abortion is canceled out because anyone eligible for an abortion in the current day, would be killed in his day.

While it is never documented that he said anything regarding homosexuality we can probably assume that he had the understanding that Jewish society had at that time, which is that homosexuality is an aberration to be overcome, not embraced. Jesus wouldn't have had access to scientific research about homosexual genes and such like that.

Left leaning in his day? Sure, but if he were political today I don't think you could say he's necessarily left leaning.
Debate Round No. 1
left_wing_mormon

Pro

left_wing_mormon forfeited this round.
theaceb

Con

100 character minimum, 100 character minimum, 100 character minimum, 100 character minimum, 100 character minimum, 100 character minimum, 100 character minimum.
Debate Round No. 2
left_wing_mormon

Pro

Sorry for not posting, computer was down.

My point is according to modren day standards did jesus have liberal veiws. Capital punishment? Welfare? War? What do you think he would support? Well, lets see:

Biblical Quotes Supporting the Belief that Jesus Is A Liberal

Peacemaking, not War Making: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [Matthew 5:9] Resist
not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [Matthew 5:39] I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute
you; [Matthew 5:44]

The Death Penalty: Thou shalt not kill [Matthew 5:21]

Crime and Punishment: If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her. [John 8:7] Do not judge, lest
you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you. [Matthew 7:1 & 2.]

Welfare and Social Programs: But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed,
because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just. [Luke 14:13 &14.]

So, aren't these veiws considered "left-Wing"?
theaceb

Con

"The Death Penalty: Thou shalt not kill [Matthew 5:21]"

There is an important distinction between the death penalty and just plain old killing. Like I said before, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any significant political stance that thinks murder is ok. So that statement cannot be proof of his left wing views. The simple phrase "thou shalt not kill" cannot be construed to be talking about the death penalty.

"Welfare and Social Programs: But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed,
because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just. [Luke 14:13 &14.]"

This is just talking about being personally charitable, which has nothing to do with supporting welfare and social programs. Again I don't know of any significant political stance that is against people being charitable to others. I for one embrace his ideal of being personally charitable to others, but I am against welfare and most social programs.

"Crime and Punishment: If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her. [John 8:7] Do not judge, lest
you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you. [Matthew 7:1 & 2.]"

I don't see how this is asserting a left-wing view, I don't really know if there is an official left-wing stance on crime and punishment other than being anti-death penalty, and putting more money into prisons for them to be rehabilitation facilities. In the quote about casting stones, the situation is people wanting to stone to death a woman for committing adultery. As I said before I don't know many right-wingers, libertarians, communists, (etc.) who think that adulteresses should be stoned.

"Peacemaking, not War Making: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [Matthew 5:9] Resist
not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [Matthew 5:39] I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute
you; [Matthew 5:44]"

The first quote is the closest one to Jesus having a left wing view. However I would say he is simply saying that on a personal level people should be peacemakers, and not hate and argue, another idea that non-liberals do not oppose. The rest of the quotes are undoubtedly simply talking about loving and doing good to others on a personal level. These simple proverbs cannot be applied to the complex political entanglements of war, and I don't Jesus meant them to be applied to such things.

"So, aren't these veiws considered "left-Wing"?"

Sure...but most of them can also be considered right-wing, libertarian, communist, (etc.)
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by left_wing_mormon 9 years ago
left_wing_mormon
See what you said about war protesters is my whole point. As you just admitted anti-war people are labeled liberal. So according to todays standards Jesus, being a pacifist and all, would be a liberal, since thats what we call pacifists today, right?
Posted by Derek.Gunn 9 years ago
Derek.Gunn
> the fact that I lost this debate by such a large margin, even when my opponent
> forfeited one round, is proof of the extreme abundance of liberals on this site

Proof?
It's not possible that people just found the Pro argument more convincing?
Posted by theaceb 9 years ago
theaceb
"In the 60's there were outraged war protesters that gathered and protested the Vietamn War very vocally. Today, these groups, (and even then) are called liberals. They were young, and they wanted peace, which was considered the liberal stance. Peace activists have always been considered liberals in our country."

Despite that fact that anti-war people are typically called liberals, doesn't mean that they are or that the principle of anti-war is even liberal. Libertarians are perhaps the most anti-war political position, and they are obviously not liberals. There are more reasons to be anti-war than just the typical idealistic, "we just want peace" stance. Once again the umbrella statement "blessed are the peacemakers" can be interpreted so many different ways, you can't just bastardize, take it out of context, and say that it proves that Jesus was anti-war.

Also as a side-note, the fact that I lost this debate by such a large margin, even when my opponent forfeited one round, is proof of the extreme abundance of liberals on this site.
Posted by theaceb 9 years ago
theaceb
"When we pay our taxes and the money goes to Welfare, we are being charitable. We should be willing to support more programs for the needy. Blessed are the Meek."

Just because you support government welfare, doesn't mean you are a charitable person, and vice versa. A truly charitable person would give of themselves to others, and not just take the easy way out say that since their taxes (that they're forced to pay) already pay for charity, they don't have to. Being personally charitable and supporting government welfare are two very different issues which are often wrongly lumped together.

"Why does the right-wing stand against Welfare (Charity)? You really think Christ would be against social welfare"

I can tell you that I am against welfare, because it is forcefully taking money from someone else (who may also be needy) and giving it to someone else. I believe the purpose of the government is to force society to be charitable. I really couldn't say if Christ would support government welfare, because he probably had no concept of it.

"Thou shalt not kill to me goes for every one even the guy who is about to pull the lever for the electric chair. It is not right to kill, and it is not right to kill the killer."

You cannot take some umbrella statement from thousands of years ago like thou shalt not kill and say it somehow applies to the death penalty. The death penalty is a punishment, for which the victim has been tried and found guilty for, there is obviously a difference between that and plain old murder, which you must acknowledge, regardless of how much you disagree with the death penalty. Also I'm sure you know who originally said that, Moses, and if that principle applies to the death penalty or war, I'm not sure God's chosen people really lived up to the law. The point of this is to show that thou shalt not kill, in that time period, only referred to a person murdering another person outside of war, or government.
Posted by Vi_Veri 9 years ago
Vi_Veri
Should tell you a thing or two about those crazy liberals ;)
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
Jesus was a bartender. Didn't his firs miracle involve wine?
Posted by Derek.Gunn 9 years ago
Derek.Gunn
You're quite right Pro about this Pro.
It's quite ironic that conservatives who are so pro-Jesus, are typically anti his beliefs.
Hypocrisy of the first order.
Posted by left_wing_mormon 9 years ago
left_wing_mormon
In the 60's there were outraged war protesters that gathered and protested the Vietamn War very vocally. Today, these groups, (and even then) are called liberals. They were young, and they wanted peace, which was considered the liberal stance. Peace activists have always been considered liberals in our country.

Thou shalt not kill to me goes for every one even the guy who is about to pull the lever for the electric chair. It is not right to kill, and it is not right to kill the killer.

When we pay our taxes and the money goes to Welfare, we are being charitable. We should be willing to support more programs for the needy. Blessed are the Meek. Why does the right-wing stand against Welfare (Charity)? You really think Christ would be against social welfare?

Thats all I'm saying.
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