The Instigator
64bithuman
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Fletch290
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

Jesus intended to return within the lifetimes of his peers

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
64bithuman
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/2/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 515 times Debate No: 77224
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

64bithuman

Pro

I’ll begin by making my position clear. I’m an atheist and I don’t think god exists, and I certainly don’t think Jesus rose from the dead. However, I think he may indeed have been a man, and so I will argue from scripture to prove my side (although I also think the scripture was thoroughly man-made).

The Resolution: Jesus intended to return in the second coming within the lifetimes of his peers.

I will argue that Jesus' return was supposed to happen some 2000 years ago as Jesus claimed.

C1: Jesus’ intent was to return while the Apostles were alive

While I will argue against Isaiah, the real proof is in the words of the man himself, and the Apostle Paul. Here are a few verses to prove my point:

From Paul: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

The believers will remain alive until the second coming.

From Jesus: Mark 9:1

“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”

Why would he say that some who stood among him would remain alive until the second coming? Or take Matthew 24. Why would Jesus spend so much time giving instructions about false messiahs to people who would be dead when he returned? Take verse 33-34, “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

There is insurmountable evidence in the words of Jesus that he intended to return quickly, within the lifetime of those who first saw him.

C2: Prophecies

These books are hardly effective books to judge Jesus by. After all, he didn’t even fulfill all the prophecies that he was supposed to. Take Isaiah 11:9, "They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be as filled with knowledge of Hashem as water covering the sea bed." Well, when Jesus had finished his duties some 2000 years ago entire continents hadn’t heard of him. This was to be the prescribed work of the upcoming Messiah, and yet it wasn’t him who spread the word to Australia, or North America.

Or take Isaiah 2:4, “He will judge among the nations, and will settle the arguments of many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare." Being that we still murder each other on a regular basis, I’d say that Jesus didn’t complete that task in his lifetime either. In fact, his gospel was the direct cause of many wars and Crusades.

Or take Isaiah 11:12 “He will arise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Israel is still in chaos and land and religious disputes are rampant and have been for thousands of years.

We cannot apply a double standard and only use a few prophecies to prove what we please.

Sources

http://christianthinktank.com...

http://www.26reasons.com...

http://ipost.christianpost.com...

Fletch290

Con

Thank you pro for kicking off, and I will begin by making my position equally clear. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I believe that God does indeed exist, I certainly do believe Jesus died, was buried and then rose on the third day. I also believe he was God in human form, both fully God and fully man. I also believe that the scripture is the living breathing word of God.


Your first point of contention states that "Jesus intent was to return while the Apostles were alive" And to back up this claim you use a few different verses of scripture.

You are misinterpreting the meaning of these pieces of scripture, by looking at the verses, isolated from the rest of the book it is easy to misinterpret the verse. Yet if you look at the context before and after all of these verses that you have listed, the meanings are quite clear.

You start with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, particularly focusing on the portion that reads "that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

If you start in verse 4:9 and read you will see that the main point of this section was to reassure the believers that those who have died will still go to heaven, not that the people of that generation would be around when Jesus came back.

In 1 Thessalonians 4 15-16 Paul is saying the Christians who died will be the first to be reunited with Jesus, and then those believers who are living will be gathered to Christ. When Paul says "we which are alive" the "we" is simply the Christians who are living, and the living shall not precede before the dead, or take precedence over them.

Next you use Mark 9:1 "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Again you must look at the context, when Jesus was speaking, he was speaking to the twelve disciples, (you will see that he is speaking to the disciples as well as a crowd if you back up and read chapter 8:34). Later on in chapter 9 of Mark you will find the story of the transfiguration, specifically in verses 2-13. In this case Jesus took only Peter, James and John up to a high mountain, not the twelve, nor anyone from the crowd, only these three men were allowed to see the transfiguration, which is why he says "That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


Here is mark 9:2-7

"2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. 5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud:“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

So when Jesus went up to the Mount of Transfiguration, his form was literally changed. In Matthew 17:1-11 and Luke 9:28-36 they say the appearance of his face changed and glowed like the Sun, and that his clothes were as white as a flash of lightning. He was receiving power and glory from God the Father who said “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”, this is where he came into power.


To add to this point, in 2 Peter 1:16-18 Peter speaks of what happened during the transfiguration.

"16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying,“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." Note what Peter is saying here, Jesus has come into power, on the Mount of Transfiguration James, John and Peter were all eyewitnesses to the power of Christ and his Kingdom.


For Matthew 24, specifically verses 33-34 once again, you must take the context into account, I will start at the beginning of the chapter, Jesus is speaking of things to come before his return.

In verses 4-9 it talks of an unusual amount of famines, earthquakes, and rumors of war.
These signs are to be the early warning indicators, and are like the beginning of birth pains before the child is actually born. then comes this,

"10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

As you pointed out in your argument pro, there is no way that the gospel reached places such Australia or the New World. Jesus will not come until these things are fulfilled, and this could not have been fulfilled in the generation of the Apostles.

Verses 15-21 speak of an "abomination of desolation," whatever follows this "abomination" will wreak such havoc on the earth that it will put the worst events in history (WW1 and 2, the Holocaust etc) to shame.

After that many false prophets will appear performing signs and claiming to be Christ, but when the real Christ comes, everyone will know it. This is how Jesus will make his entrance

29“Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Now since none of these things has happened yet, Jesus can not have returned, and finally we get to your section of scripture that you used.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Jesus is using the fig tree as an illustration, when these things start to happen, the end result will be quick, and the generation that witnesses them will not pass away. This in no way suggests that the disciples or at least their generation would absolutely be around for the second coming, but it wasnt ruled out either.



C2

All three scriptures you chose will be fulfilled after the return of Christ during his reign as king in the millennial Kingdom, just because there is prophecy in the OT does not mean it needed to be fulfilled by Jesus' first coming.

Isaiah 11 9 the mountain refers to Christ's kingdom, the kingdom will never see ruin. Daniel 2;44-46 tells of a kingdom set up by God that will wipe out all other Kingdoms, this kingdom will last forever and never fall under enemy rule, this kingdom is Christ's kingdom. Read Daniel 2 for full story.


Again in Isaiah 2:4 a prophecy speaking of the peace that will come over Earth
once Christ is King.


Isaiah 11:12 again look at context, in verse 10 it says at that time (that time is the millennial kingdom) he will be a flag to the nations and they will seek guidance from him, in 11-12 God will bring his people to his eternal kingdom.

Sources

The Bible

http://www.christnotes.org...

Debate Round No. 1
64bithuman

Pro

64bithuman forfeited this round.
Fletch290

Con

Pro missed his window so I will just move forward to Round #3
Debate Round No. 2
64bithuman

Pro

Thanks Con, I apologize for missing a round - as Douglas Adams said, “I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.” I’ll suspend my anti-theist attitudes as best I can, I’d invite Con to debate god more in-depth sometime, for now, on to rebuttals.

1 Thessalonians is a kind of guidebook for living a Christian life as written by Paul. As far as I can tell at no point in Chapter 4 does Paul seem to be talking about the already dead, aside from verse 13, in which he seems to me to be encouraging the living that although a few might have died, Jesus is going to return soon, in verse 17, he says, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

That verse is very hard to interpret your way out of. It’s clear that Paul is assuring the living that they will be reunited soon – let us not forget that this is a letter to a young Church in need of guidance. It is specifically written to them. It’s not ‘official’, third-person styled narrative like say, the Book of Matthew. To argue that Paul was referring to future Christians is going to take some more impressive logic/evidence.

Mark 9:1 is similarly difficult to wiggle out of. Jesus chooses careful words here, “there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.” If you want to stretch the event of the transfiguration into somehow seeing the “kingdom of God come with power”, that is a matter of purposeful interpretation. Take verses 33-34, “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The context is hardly a factor. The context is obvious – it’s the bookend to a series of events that never happened because Jesus was not divine and did not have the ability to see into the future. He clearly promises that the current generation will be around for the all the events, he says it; “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” He picks his words carefully here: this generation, not some generation. Even you concede that ‘it wasn’t ruled out either’.

I realize that all the prophecies can be interpreted as after the return of Christ, or they might not be. That’s fine. I don’t need them to prove this point.

Thanks.

Fletch290

Con

Basic thoughts:

Thank you pro, before I start my rebuttal, let me make a brief point and lay out some verses of scripture that I will be relying on throughout the rest of my argument.

Christians are called to walk by faith, we are told to watch for Jesus as we do not know when he will return. Therefore we must always watch and be ready for his return, this is something that Jesus commanded and applies to all Christians from the very first believers in Jesus" until Christ does indeed come back. (Luke 12:35-48)
There are many other verses I can bring to the table in reference to the second coming, but here are some that reinforce my main point in this round. No one, not even Jesus when he was on earth knows when the return of Christ will take place.
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
"for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2)
"But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into."( Luke 12:39)

Here is a parable Jesus told concerning his coming,
35 "Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, 36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

In this first section, it is clear that Jesus is telling his disciples to watch for his return, he also says that he will come when he is not expected, but could come at any time and therefore we as believers must always be prepared.

Continuing with the parable

41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, "My master is delayed in coming," and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Since no one knows when Jesus will return, all the authors teach the believers to be prepared. Which is why in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul says "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together". Paul is always under the assumption that Jesus could return at any time which is why he says "we who are alive, who are left" the "we" is any believer alive at the return of Christ. This is where I believe you are misunderstanding, since the authors are saying "we who are alive," you are assuming that they thought Jesus would be coming specifically to them. And while he(Jesus) did"t say he was"t coming to them, he never promised to return within their lifetime.

That is why I said Jesus didn't rule out the possibility that he would return during the apostles lifetime, because even he did"t know the day of his return

Jesus is asking them,and all believers (Here I am referring to the parable, not Thessalonians)to walk in faith, to continue to carry out his instructions completely and consistently throughout our lives, to further the Kingdom of Heaven and to expect his return. He is also warning us that if we live as though he in"t coming back, then we will face punishment. This is how believers are supposed to live; in a constant preparedness for his return.

Now to head back to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, In chapter 4: is where the writer Paul transitions from urging the believers to live a Godly life, to reassuring them that those who have died will be reunited with the Christians who are present at Christ"s return. From verse 13 until the end of the chapter deals with the dead being reunited with Christ at the end. "To argue that Paul was referring to future Christians is going to take some more impressive logic/evidence." I am not saying Paul is referring to future Christians, he is saying that all Christians must wait for Christ, (again, those believers who are left)

Lets dissect verse 17
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Bear in mind the scripture is quite clear that nobody knows the day or hour
Now the reason why Paul uses the word "we" is because he believes that Christ very well could return within his lifetime, he is calling the believers to act in faith and live as though Christ will return at any minute this is why the word "we" is used by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 because we (we as believers) do not know when Jesus will return, and therefore must always be expecting the return of Christ.

As far as Mark 9:1, my interpretation comes from the verses I gave in 2 Peter 1:16-18. It is obvious that Peter is saying that he and the other two disciples saw Jesus come into the power of his Kingdom. Those are not my words, but Peter"s so I don"t see where I am purposely interpreting scripture here.

And as for Matthew 24:33-34, I believe Jesus when Jesus says "this generation, he is referring to the generation that sees the signs, and the what I meant by context is, as the olive tree leaves turn green, you know summer is right around the corner. So once the signs start, Jesus will have come back within the lifetime of the generation that saw them. Not necessarily within that specific generation
. In fact I can assure you that Peter, knew full well that he would not see Jesus return, but that he would be dead. (John 19:18-22) Jesus predicted Peter's death, and Peter asked how the Apostle John would die, and Jesus replied "If it is my will that he should remain until I come, what is it to you? You follow me!"and later on it says other believers started a rumor that John could not die until Jesus returned. The point here is, that Peter knew he would be dead before Christ's return, yet he still taught others to watch for Jesus. In 2 Peter chapter 3:4 he says in later days people will scoff and say why hasn't Jesus come as he promised? If you read 2 peter 3 he reaffirms everything that I have said.

To pro and voters, I must apologize if this round seems poorly written or structured, I wasn't able to put quotes in italic form or scripture in bold lettering as I wrote this on my iphone in a car. to be honest, i had to rush a response as I will probably not have access to the internet again until saturday. I would ask the pro to wait until the last minute to submit his final round. I know he is not obligated to do so, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would give me the extra time to finish this debate.

Regardless of your decision pro, just know I have thoroughly enjoyed this debate and invite you to discuss any other questions you may have with me.

Sources:
The Bible
Debate Round No. 3
64bithuman

Pro


As per Pro’s request, I have waited until the last hour to post my response (actually I waited too long and so I’m a bit rushed), and I have to say I’m pretty impressed you wrote a response on your iPhone. That’s some dedication!



“Christians are called to walk by faith…”


This entire section doesn’t actually present any proof. Just saying ‘we are called to do x or y” is not adequate proof. I operate under the assumption of Jesus’s word and the Bible, not on church doctrine, or what believers have been saying for the past two thousand years.


Indeed continuing to post verses like Luke 12:35-48, which says things like, “Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.” in no way helps your case. I argue that it in fact helps my case. Jesus is telling people he knows and loves that they should be ready – the hour comes near – not the ‘century’ comes near. None of these verses are helpful to you:


"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)


"for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2)


"But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into."( Luke 12:39)


Why would Jesus mislead all these people he so loved into thinking they should be ready for his return? On a side note, at no point did Jesus mention starting a Church or a hierarchy for his teachings, unlike, say Muhammad. Even you say it, “In this first section, it is clear that Jesus is telling his disciples to watch for his return, he also says that he will come when he is not expected, but could come at any time and therefore we as believers must always be prepared.” Indeed, but why? Why not say what he really means? Why would he direct his words in such a way as to almost purposely mislead his followers?


You seem to think that because Jesus said he didn’t know, he had no intentions, and that’s just false. He consistently hints at an immediate return, within the lifetime
Fletch290

Con

Thank you Pro, for being courteous and waiting as long as possible, you have given me just enough time to form my last round.

To start, I will defend my opening statement was founded in scripture. And will go on to reinforce it with more.

"Christians are called to walk by faith, we are told to watch for Jesus as we do not know when he will return."

You say that I did not back up what I said with Scripture, I quote "This entire section doesn’t actually present any proof. Just saying ‘we are called to do x or y” is not adequate proof."

Now I know you only directly quoted the first part of my opening point for that round, but the first and second half of my sentence are not separate points, but are interconnected. didn't I reference (Luke 12:35-48)? The very first paragraph backs up what I said, here are the first three verses.

“Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes."

Look at the words used there, "stay dressed for action", "keep your lamps burning" "like men who are waiting" These figures of speech all point to a state of being prepared, a state of vigilance.

Jesus is calling the believers to watch for him. He is telling them to believe he is coming, to have faith in him.


Now, could I have backed up what I said with more black and white verses regarding Christians walking in faith? Yes, and I am sorry Pro, I was trying to use verses from Jesus directly. here are some of the many verses that back up the part you specifically mentioned.

Hebrews 10:37-38

"37 For,
“In just a little while,

he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”


Hebrews chapter 11 deals with living by faith almost exclusively, but here are some verses that are very clear. 5-6, 7,8-10

Habakkuk 2:4
Romans 1:17 "For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Now what does it mean to live in faith? It means to believe Jesus is who he says he is, To back that up

Romans 3:21-22 21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,


Romans 4:3
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.



On to your next point,

“Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.” in no way helps your case. I argue that it in fact helps my case. Jesus is telling people he knows and loves that they should be ready – the hour comes near – not the ‘century’ comes near."


God is beyond time,
as psalm 90:4 states
A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.

or 2 Peter 3:8
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

God is beyond time, he doesn't view it the way we do. Jesus is not trying to tell them he is returning in their lifetime, he never gives a date, he had already said he doesn't know when he is coming back, but only God knows.

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)

He is asking his followers, to live "dressed for action" because they do not know when he will return, only that he will return. This is not a message just for the disciples, but for all of his believers.

Why would Jesus tell his followers of that time to "be dressed for action, ready for his return" with one breath, and in the next say "Oh by the way, I wont be back for at least another 2,000 years so you all will be long gone before I return."? Jesus never gave us all of the details, he asks us to trust him, to put some faith in him.

By not revealing the day of his return, he left us with two options. "Either trust he is Messiah, and wait on his return, or not. We can either live as though he will return to the Earth at any day, and will judge the inhabitants of the Earth based on their actions, or we can ignore him. Just as the wicked servant in Luke 12:35-49 did,

43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or actaccording to his will, will receive a severe beating.

That is why Jesus never mentioned a date, we are called to put our faith to action. Jesus has made his will pretty clear, throughout all his teaching, we are to follow him and live as he did. This is summed up in the Great Commission,

"18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”




Next point

"On a side note, at no point did Jesus mention starting a Church or a hierarchy for his teachings,"


Matthew 16:18
Jesus is talking directly to Simon Peter here, the name Peter means "rock" he says "on this rock I will build my church"

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”



Final point

You seem to think that because Jesus said he didn’t know, he had no intentions, and that’s just false. He consistently hints at an immediate return, within the lifetime

I semi-answered this point,
I am going to start by asking you, can you show me a single verse in the bible where Jesus had intentions of doing anything on his own? Here are some against that theory

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
(John 6:38)

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. (John 5:19)

My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. (John 4:34)
If he can only do what the father wills, and if the Father hadn't let him know when he is coming, then why would you say Jesus had intentions of doing anything?

In summary

Jesus states that he will return, and that his return will be soon. But as God, his definition of "soon" is completely different than ours. You look at "soon" as within your lifetime, and have therefore forced your definition of "soon" into your interpretation of the scripture. But if you consider God is outside of time, and look at his words through his perspective, suddenly you realize that he could come tomorrow or 1,000,000 years from now.

For a believer, that can be discouraging. This is why I believe he says "I am coming soon", to encourage us. We want to be assured that he hasn't forgotten us, and that he will come back soon. Those verses are not there to tell us what time he is coming or should have come. But that he is coming, and for us that serves as both encouragement and warning.



Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by 64bithuman 1 year ago
64bithuman
Shoot I done cut the end off my argument, but you can guess what I wrote - it's the title.
Posted by 64bithuman 1 year ago
64bithuman
Oh MAN! I just missed it!!!
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Greg4586 1 year ago
Greg4586
64bithumanFletch290Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Good debate guys. So with this I kept looking at the evidence pro presented and the rebuttals con presented, and I just don't think his rebuttals could overwhelm the evidence. Con said towards the end that God sees time very differently than we do, but I think I'm going to have to go for Pro with his quote "Why would Jesus mislead all these people he so loved into thinking they should be ready for his return?" And then it boils down to "He consistently hints at an immediate return, within the lifetime" Which despite all of the rebuttals and evidence Con gave it just doesn't shake the fact that Jesus did hint at him returning in their lifetime many times.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
64bithumanFletch290Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited a round. This is bad conduct.