The Instigator
radz
Pro (for)
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The Contender
FMAlchemist
Con (against)
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Jesus is God by nature

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/13/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,047 times Debate No: 61637
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
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radz

Pro

This debate challenge is strictly not for Atheists/ Agnostics but only for those who are Christians by calling especially the Unitarians. This calls for the use of the Bible per se as the source of both arguments and rebuttals.

This is my debate challenge: JESUS IS GOD BY NATURE.

Jesus Christ is God by nature because of one singular reason and that's His being the Son of God.


By the word "nature", we mean the "whole substance which makes God as He is." It's the DNA, the make-up of the Deity as revealed in the Christian Scriptures.

Consider this analogy:

A son of a man is man by nature.

The Son of God is God by nature.

Question: Do the Scriptures support this teaching?

Answer: Yes. The Scriptures do support this teaching. The Holy Scriptures always emphasizes the son-ship of Jesus Christ as the reason of his true Godhead (god-hood).

Notice the following scriptures:

John 1:1 Jesus Christ is the Word who is God by nature.

John 1:14 Jesus Christ is the only Son from the Father.

John 1:18 Jesus Christ is God the Son who is in the bosom of the Father.

Psalm 110:3 God says to Christ: "I begat you before the day star."

Colossians 2:9 In Christ "all the fullness of deity" live bodily.

Philippians 2:6 Christ exists in God's morphe ( form, nature, reality).

NOTE

All of the language that is used to convey the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ is simply an anthropomorphism.



On God's nature

The reality of God is "from everlasting" ( eternal) based on Psalm 90:2.

The reality of God's Son is "from everlasting" ( eternal) based on Micah 5:2.

In fact, John 1:1-3( Genesis 1:1) is clear that both the Word and God co-existed in the beginning. This existence before the creation of all things proved that these two existed without beginning. How could the Word had a beginning if he was in the beginning with God? The fact is that God began everything by Him and no creation would be in existence without the agency of the Word who is God the Only Son.

NOTE

Jesus Christ is not only God by nature but also human by nature because according to John 1:14, the Word who is God is the same Word who " came into existence" ( egeneto) in a "human flesh"( sarxi). In 1 Timothy 2:5 it says "the human Jesus." This is what Christians call "Incarnation" ( an English word which came from the Latin word caro, meaning "flesh" as found in all Latin MSS of Jn 1:14).






FMAlchemist

Con

"A son of a man is man by nature.

The Son of God is God by nature. "

Actually Jesus could be classified better as a Demigod,since his mother is a human and his father God. I could use the these analogies too. The son of a tiger and a lion is a liger or a tigon,the son of a horse and a donkey is a mule or a hinny,the son of a donkey and a zebra is a zeedonk or a zonkey[1].For him to be a God both his mother and his father would have to be deities.

Question: Do the Scriptures support this teaching?

No they don't. This believe was added by the Nicene Creed[2],because the church was concerned that Jesus would be less than his father. The original scriptures never say explicitly that Jesus is God.

John 1:1 Jesus Christ is the Word who is God by nature.

If The Word means God it means that Jesus is God who is God by nature?Sounds a bit weird and redundant. I don't think it uses the same meaning as the other verse,but i don't know where to find the hermeneutics to see.

John 1:14 Jesus Christ is the only Son from the Father.

The son of the father but not God.

John 1:18 Jesus Christ is God the Son who is in the bosom of the Father.

Again he is his son,but not God.

Psalm 110:3 God says to Christ: "I begat you before the day star."

Again,it doesn't say he is God. Also,if he was God he would be omniscient,omnipotent,etc. and wouldn't need to hear what God would have to say,since he would be God and would've know what he was going to say,and wouldn't need to talk to himself.

Colossians 2:9 In Christ "all the fullness of deity" live bodily.

Lives bodily,like a man. Deity referring to God,which means he is both a man and a god,like a demigod.

Philippians 2:6 Christ exists in God's morphe ( form, nature, reality).

In the next verses you can see he became a man,and how he is not God anymore.

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! - Philippians 2:6-8

On God's nature

The reality of God is "from everlasting" ( eternal) based on Psalm 90:2.

The reality of God's Son is "from everlasting" ( eternal) based on Micah 5:2.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
- Micah 5:2

I doesn't refer to God's son,but to his origins,probably God.

In fact, John 1:1-3( Genesis 1:1) is clear that both the Word and God co-existed in the beginning.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. - John 1:1-3

You mean this?It just means that you have fellowship with both the Father and the Son,it doesn't say "And the father created everything with his son" or something. And in John 1:2 they talk only about the Father. Why not both?

"Jesus Christ is not only God by nature but also human by nature because according to John 1:14"

Yes,but being human is not in God's nature,which just proves they are two different beings with two different natures. If he has both qualities he is a Demigod.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

I don't think it means God himself became flesh,but that his teachings became flesh in the form of Jesus. And it also says that Jesus came from the Father,so he wasn't always there.


In 1 Timothy 2:5 it says "the human Jesus." This is what Christians call "Incarnation" ( an English word which came from the Latin word caro, meaning "flesh" as found in all Latin MSS of Jn 1:14).

And this is what atheist and ancient Greeks called a demigod.


Debate Round No. 1
radz

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting my debate challenge. The following are my rebuttals on my opponent's arguments:

ARGUMENT:

Actually Jesus could be classified better as a Demigod,since his mother is a human and his father God. I could use the these analogies too. The son of a tiger and a lion is a liger or a tigon,the son of a horse and a donkey is a mule or a hinny,the son of a donkey and a zebra is a zeedonk or a zonkey[1].For him to be a God both his mother and his father would have to be deities.

REBUTTAL:

The begetting does not imply literal generation. What it tells us is that the Son of God is God by nature.

JOHN 5:18

John 5:18 says that the Son is equal with God because He calls God His own Father. Logic dictates that the only way a son ca be equal to his father is by nature and never in authority.

This is what the context affirms. John 5:19 shows that the Son can only do what the Father can do and He can do it likewise and John 5:26 shows that the Father gave the Son the sort of life which He has. Verse 27 say it's the reason why the Son can give life. It's because He has the same life as the Father which is "life-in-Himself."

This life was never given to others except Christ alone. The fact that it is the life of the Father per-se proves that the Son is co-eval with the Father for the Father has no beginning of existence. That's the Father's life and it was given to His Son ( John 5:26).

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself ( John 5:26)

John 1:4 concurs: In Him was life:

Do not forget that the Son can only do what the Father can do ( John 5:19). It highly implies that the Son is Almighty the same way the Father is because they are one in ability.

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does ( John 5:19 NIV)


ARGUMENT:

This believe was added by the Nicene Creed,because the church was concerned that Jesus would be less than his father. The original scriptures never say explicitly that Jesus is God.

REBUTTAL:

The Nicene Creed is the response of the church to the new teaching that Jesus is not God by nature but rather, the first creature created by God (i.e. Arianism).

SOURCE:
http://www.gotquestions.org...

The NT Scriptures do call Jesus as “God.”
…the Word was God –John 1:1
…God the Only Son who is in the Father’s bosom… - John 1:18
And Thomas said to Him, “My Lord and My God.” – John 20:28
…Christ, who is God over all, blessed for ever. – Romans 9:5

SOURCE:
https://bible.org...

ARGUMENT

If the Word means God it means that Jesus is God who is God by nature?Sounds a bit weird and redundant. I don't think it uses the same meaning as the other verse,but i don't know where to find the hermeneutics to see.

REBUTTAL
The Word does not mean “God.” Rather, it means “ speech, message, reason.” It denotes something “from the inside out.” It is the reality of God’s self and being reflected by His own Son who is the “exact imprint of His nature” (Hebrews 1:3).

ARGUMENT

The son of the father but not God.

REBUTTAL
The Son of the Father is God by nature. In fact, John 1:18 is clear that Jesus Christ is “God the Only Son.”


ARGUMENT

Psalm 110:3 God says to Christ: "I begat you before the day star."

Again,it doesn't say he is God.

REBUTTAL

Yes. I agree that Ps. 110:3 does not say that Jesus is God but when read Christologically in the light of the NT Scriptures, it proves that the Messiah existed before the creation of the universe and that He existed as the begotten Son of the Father which coheres with NT theology ( Jn 1:1-4,14,18;5:26;8:42,58;10:28-38;20:28, Col. 2:9, Heb. 1:3).

ARGUMENT

Also,if he was God he would be omniscient,omnipotent,etc. and wouldn't need to hear what God would have to say,since he would be God and would've know what he was going to say,and wouldn't need to talk to himself.

REBUTTAL

In John 5:20 it says that the Father shows everything to the Son. How does the Father show all things to the Son? The Father is not literally showing all things to the Son. Rather, the text only means that the Son is omniscient (knows all things) because of the Father, having His nature in Him. Why does the Father show all things to His Son? It is because He loves His Son as the text reasoned out. This is a reiteration of the Johannine theme of close relationship between the con-substantial Father and Son.

I speak the things which I have seen with My Father. John 8:38

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. John 12:49

What this means is that Jesus speaks as the Son of the Father. Everything He says is under the Father’s initiative and authority. They are not divisive but one in their message, will and design. It shows functional subordination while on the other hand, ontological equality.

ARGUMENT

Lives bodily,like a man. Deity referring to God,which means he is both a man and a god,like a demigod.

REBUTTAL
Jesus Christ is not a sort of a demigod. A demigod is half god and half man. Jesus Christ is not a demigod because He is completely human and completely God at the same time. This is what Christians call the “Incarnation.”

SOURCE:
http://www.gotquestions.org...

ARGUMENT

In the next verses you can see he became a man,and how he is not God anymore.

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! - Philippians 2:6-8

REBUTTAL

It is a universal Christian teaching that God’s nature cannot cease to exists. Therefore, based on what my opponent has quoted, Jesus Christ is indeed “in very nature God.”

Perhaps, my opponent is trying to bring into argument the kenotic (emptying) notion that the incarnate Son gave up His certain attributes. This is easily refuted from the texts per se. It is recorded that the time when Jesus Christ made the decision to make Himself nothing is the time when He is already having the human nature.

ARGUMENT

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.” - Micah 5:2

I doesn't refer to God's son,but to his origins,probably God.

REBUTTAL

Micah 5:2 does refers to God’s Son. In Matthew 2:6, Jesus Christ is its fulfillment. It spoke of the Lord Jesus’ origins ( both in his divinity and humanity).

In both the Hebrew texts and the Septuagint Version, the eternality of the Son of God is meant.

Mime owlam – Hebrew [ transliterated]
Ex hemeron aionos –Greek [ transliterated]
Out from the days of eternity or from everlasting [English]

ARGUMENT

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. - John 1:1-3

You mean this? It just means that you have fellowship with both the Father and the Son,it doesn't say "And the father created everything with his son" or something. And in John 1:2 they talk only about the Father. Why not both?

REBUTTAL

My opponent quoted the wrong texts. I quoted John 1:1-3 but He quoted 1 John 1:1-3.
I extend my argument on John 1:1-3.

Here’s the texts:

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

ARGUMENT

Being human is not in God's nature,which just proves they are two different beings with two different natures. If he has both qualities he is a Demigod.

REBUTTAL

My opponent wrongly concluded that Jesus Christ is a demigod by virtue of His dual natures. I already explained earlier that Jesus Christ is not a demigod because He is not half god and half man but rather, fully God and fully man.

ARGUMENT

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

I don't think it means God himself became flesh,but that his teachings became flesh in the form of Jesus. And it also says that Jesus came from the Father,so he wasn't always there.

REBUTTAL

The texts are clear:

John 1:1 The Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word ( who was God) became flesh.

It does not say that God’s teachings became flesh. Both Genesis 2:7 and James 2:26 tell us that man’s nature is both body and spirit. If God’s teachings became flesh, then it is just a mere body. It is not human at all. The fact that the result of this “Word who became flesh” is Jesus Christ (a person) disproves the idea of my opponent that it is God’s teachings that became flesh.

The Son has its origin from the Father. That's what it means by the clause "the Only Son from the Father." It does not mean that the Son has a beginning of existence but rather, it means that by virtue of His unique son-ship, He is God by nature.

ARGUMENT

The Incarnation is what atheist and ancient Greeks called a demigod.

REBUTTAL

My opponent is utterly wrong in this case. As I already pointed out earlier, to be an incarnate Deity and to be a demigod is not synonymous. Jesus Christ has both natures , not in halves but rather in completeness.
FMAlchemist

Con

FMAlchemist forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
radz

Pro

I extend my arguments.
FMAlchemist

Con

FMAlchemist forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
radz

Pro

I extend my arguments.
FMAlchemist

Con

FMAlchemist forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
FMAlchemist

Con

FMAlchemist forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by radz 2 years ago
radz
@FMAlchemist, Sure. :)
Posted by FMAlchemist 2 years ago
FMAlchemist
I'm an atheist,but can i play the devil's advocate?
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Emilirose. God creates using faith-filled words. In Geneses every time God spoke, he created.Now when Adam sinned, God had a dilemma. Now man was no longer his son. He now belonged to satan. He became the god of this world.Adam was up to that point god of this world. He had been given dominion over all the works of God's hands.
Now God had to devise a plan to get another man in there to make amends for that one.He could nopt use the dust iof the earth. That dust now had a curse in it.So he did it the same way he always did things. Speaking. For 4000 years God made covenant with anyone who would listen to him.He was painting a picture of himself.He was making an earth suit, or a physical body. There is no other way to get one of them except it comes through a womb of a woman.And he spoke words and created that body. When iot was finished he put it on in the womb of Mary.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.And the word was made flesh and dwelt among men.And since all the blood in a baby is of the man, it had to be a virgin birth. The Holy Spirit planted the seed of the word of God in Mary and jesus was born 9 months later.

Now that is what I have learned after a careful study of the Abrahamic covenant and the new covenant. Jesus was first mentioned in Geneses when God said he would send one to take back the authority that Adam gave to satan.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Emilirose. Messiah means " the anointed one." Anointed with Gods power.And he walked in that power for 33 years.Not for himself. But he healed all that came to him.The bible is not a revelation of the power of God. But of the love of God.He uses his power to help those who will let him in.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Jesus said, This is manifest, the children of God and the children of the devil.Adam turned mankind into children of the devil. That is why Jesus came. So we can be reborn from death to life. Adam was the first man to be reborn. He was reborn from life to death. He put all mankind on a collision course with death.Satan was now their father.Jesus came, made a sacrifice to redeem us, and now all those who accept that sacrifice, God will accept him into his family. All those who reject that offer, God will simply leave them in the family of the devil.

Your choice, not Gods.
Posted by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
If God is THE FATHER...

Sons of man are man
Sons of God are God,

Aren't we all Son's (or children) of God. Therefore by this logic we are all God.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
I'm Agnostic, but have read the Christian Bible and would be happy to debate this, however I would prefer to leave it to an actual Christian to do so. If nobody accepts within the last day, if you don't mind, I would be happy to.
Posted by Envisage 2 years ago
Envisage
You need 5 rounds to debate one point?
Posted by Emilirose 2 years ago
Emilirose
To my knowledge, the teaching of Christianity is that he is the Messiah, so how is it plausible that he can be God too? That contradicts itself.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
John 1st chapter. In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was god, and the word became flesh, and dwelt among men.

Jesus said, " if you have seen me , you have seen the Father. They look exactly alike.If you study the word. Jesus is no longer the only begotten son of God.He is the firstborn from the dead. The firstborn of many brothers.It is called the church of the firstborn. There were over 3000 sons and daughters of God on the day of Pentecost.2000 years later sons and daughters are being added to that number daily.
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