The Instigator
ianspigler
Pro (for)
Losing
16 Points
The Contender
Ore_Ele
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

Jesus is God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,132 times Debate No: 16590
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (7)

 

ianspigler

Pro

I affirmitively belive that Jesus is God. I can suppport my belief by pointing out the following: Jesus was omnipotent, and since only God can be omnipotent threfore Jesus is God. Secondly, In John 1 it clearly states "God was the Word" .Thirdly, if Jesus was not god he is a lesser spirit being which cannot take the mantle of messiah and dose not deserve our worship. Lastly, Jesus could not have died to give us eternal life unless if he had eternal life to give us and, since only God has eternal life Jesus must therfore be God.
Ore_Ele

Con

I will address each of these, 1 point at a time.

1) "Jesus was omnipotent, and since only God can be omnipotent threfore Jesus is God."

This is known as Begging the question. You need to show that a) Jesus is omnipotent (which you may want to define those words), and b) that only God can be omnipotent. Why can't we have multiple omnipotent things?

2) "If Jesus was not god he is a lesser spirit being which cannot take the mantle of messiah and dose not deserve our worship."

That does not prove that Jesus is God. First, you must prove that Jesus deserves our worship (without using circular logic, of course).

3) "Jesus could not have died to give us eternal life unless if he had eternal life to give us and, since only God has eternal life Jesus must therfore be God."

We know this is false, since the Devil also has eternal life (unless you believe that the devil will die of old age someday). Since the devil also has eternal life, that shows that more than 1 being has eternal life, and so it is logical to believe that any multiple number of beings could have eternal life, so Jesus could provide eternal life without actually being God.

4) "John 1 it clearly states 'God was the Word'."

This is probably the most damning piece of evidence, as everybody knows that the bird is the word.
Debate Round No. 1
ianspigler

Pro

In response to my opponent's first statement, in Mathew 12: 23-28 Jesus clearly shows his omnipotence (which means you can know all, see all, and hear all) In that he reads the Pharisee's minds. The reason why only God can be omnipotent we must first look at eternity, to know everything that was, is and ever shall be is too mind bollinging for any human (remember, eternity has no end or begging so that all lot of stuff to know). Secondly, In Matthew 2: 10- 12 it states that the wise men worshiped Jesus as Messiah, so clearly he is worthy to be worshiped. Thirdly, the Bible states that satan has everlasting life, not eternal life. A person with everlasting life can die if he disobeys God and, in Revelation 20: 10,11 it sates that satan along with Gog of Magog will be cast into the lake of fire and die. I would also like to add in the 1 Epistle of John 4:2-4 it states that he who does not believe that God came in the flesh has the spirit of the Antichrist. Also, in 1 Timothy 3:16 it states that " Without controversy God was manifested in the flesh." Also, I would like to point out that in Genesis 1:26 it states "Let us make man in our image." So, if God was not part of the Trinity why would he be speaking about himself in plurality ? Finally, I would like to point out that my opponent did not respond to my final point which shows me that he knows that I am right.
Ore_Ele

Con

I thank my opponent for continuing the debate.

First, I will address my opponent's arguments, then move on to my own.

1) "Jesus clearly shows his omnipotence (which means you can know all, see all, and hear all) In that he reads the Pharisee's minds."

Reading minds does not prove omnipotence. My wife can read my mind, but I highly doubt she is omnipotent.

2) "...the wise men worshiped Jesus as Messiah, so clearly he is worthy to be worshiped."

Simply because individuals labeled as "wise" choose to worship him, does not mean that he is worthy of it.

3) "...the Bible states that satan has everlasting life, not eternal life."

The difference being, as you said, that the Devil can die (since God will kill the devil), but is it not true that Jesus died? For three days, Jesus was dead. He was not simply playing dead, or pretending. He was actually, completely, and officially dead (according to the bible), and was raised from the dead. That shows that Jesus can die, which would indicate that he has everlasting life, not eternal (since that is how you specified the difference between the two).

4) "I would like to point out that in Genesis 1:26 it states "Let us make man in our image." So, if God was not part of the Trinity why would he be speaking about himself in plurality?"

I believe that indicates that each are seperate. If he were all and one, than one would expect that the singular would be used, not the plurality.

When reading through the bible, we come across many examples where Jesus differentiates himself from God. Indicating that he is seperate from God.

John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form."

John 12:49 - "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."

Luke 22:42 - "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

There are many more, but I think those get to the point. We also come across other issues. In Exodus (33:20), God says that no one can see his face and live. However, many have seen the face of Jesus. If Jesus is God, that provides a painful contridiction (and Moses got ripped off from being one of the first to see the face of God).

We also reach the issue in that God cannot die, yet Jesus could (for his very mission, he had to be able to die).

I will let my opponent take these up as we move to the final round.
Debate Round No. 2
ianspigler

Pro

I wish to tell my opponent he has been a truly worthy adversary. Now, I shall make my final statement. I would first like to draw attention that Jesus is omnipotent, In Matthew 18:20 He says "Two or three of you gathered in my name, I am there." If Jesus is not omnipotent (being able to be everywhere at once and knowing all ect.) than how can he possibly do this every Sunday at 10 AM when two and more people around the world simultaneously gather in prayer. Also, in Matthew 28:20 he says " And lo I am with you always until the end of the age." Also, in Revelation 20 he says "I am the Alpha and the Omega , The first and the last, the begging and the end." Clearly I have made my point, so I will move on to the next one. Next, I would like to point out that Christ was fully human and fully divine. ( 1 John 5:20) meaning, that when he died his human essence died not his spiritual essence (Acts: 20) On to my next point I would like to point out the times he was worshiped. Matthew 14:33 �€then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God€�
Matthew 28:9 a€and as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, Rejoice! And they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him€�
Matthew 28:17 a€and when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted€�
John 9:38 a€then he said, a€˜Lord, I believe!a€™ And he worshiped Him€�
Hebrews 1:6 a€but when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, a€owlet all the angels of God worship Him€�
I could go on but I think you see my point.
Next, I would like to point out that multiple times in Matthew ( Ch 6,9, 10) "He who has seen me has seen the father" So Jesus not only says quite clearly he is divine but he also rebuttals your statement. Also, in Genesis 1:26 God says "let us make man in our image" So, if you want to be technical you look into God's face every time you look in the mirror. And I haven't died yet. Lastly, I would like to point out some more verses that indicate Christ's divinity. In John 20:28 "My Lord and my God" , in Closings 2:9 "For in him (Christ) dwells the Godhead bodily. Hebrews 1; 7&8 "And the Angels say to the Son 'Your throne O god is forever and ever'". Isaiah 9:6 "And he will be called wonderful counselor, Mighty God, and Prince of Peace." John 10 " I and the Father are one" . I would also like to still point out that my opponent has still remained silent on several arguments of mine, so that shows he knows I am right and is not prepared.
Ore_Ele

Con

I thank my opponent and will only refute his statements and back up what he's attempted to refute of mine.

1) "If Jesus is not omnipotent (being able to be everywhere at once and knowing all ect.) than how can he possibly do this..."

Omnipotent means "all powerful." Showing that he can do one or two really powerful things, does not show that he can do every powerful thing.

2) "in Revelation 20 he says 'I am the Alpha and the Omega , The first and the last, the begging and the end.'"

We need to remember that Jesus is not actually speaking, since the book of Revelation was written off the author's visions, not actual conversations with Jesus. In fact, even according to the author himself, the vision was provided by an Angel, not Jesus or God.

3) "On to my next point I would like to point out the times he was worshiped."

This is an appeal to popularity. The number of times someone is worshiped is no indication on whether or not they actually deserve that worship. After all, from a number's perspective, Snookie has more people "worshiping" her now than Jesus had while he was alive (a truly sad thing).

4) "'He who has seen me has seen the father' So Jesus not only says quite clearly he is divine but he also rebuttals your statement."

Since Jesus says in one instant that we've never "seen his [God's] form," yet in another says "He who has seen me has seen the father," we can only conclude that one of these passages is more figurative and one is more literal. The verse in Exodus is also very obvious. There is not a lot of wiggle room to make it figurative.

18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

The only logical explination is that either A) the other passages are symbolic and figurative, or B) the bible is being illogical and so we cannot use it as a legitimate source for any of this debate.

Summing up, it should be clear that no evidence was given the Jesus IS God, given by the number of time Jesus stated that he wasn't (not refuted, merely pointed out that Jesus said he was aswell), and that if he was literally God, all his disciples would be dead.

Thank you,
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
The Trinity doctrine and Jesus' own words (I am one with my Father) might have done it. But Pro's arguments were unconvinvincg. Better alternative ways might have been taken.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
That depends on the accepted definition of omnipotent.
Posted by wjmelements 5 years ago
wjmelements
Multiple-omnipotence is impossible.
Posted by Scepticus 5 years ago
Scepticus
I like how Pro assumes Jesus was/is God. There is no real evidence to suggest that Jesus was anything more than a human, and some still question whether Jesus actually existed.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
So sad to see a brother who is about to get destroyed. I hope you have better arguments than this... because the atheists on this site will tear the ones you have presented apart.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: con used much evidence that supported his position as well as refuting pro's
Vote Placed by royalpaladin 4 years ago
royalpaladin
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Dimitri C votebombed the debate and argued that Con was wrong because he disagreed with the Pro's position. When he corrects his vote, then so will i.
Vote Placed by Dimmitri.C 5 years ago
Dimmitri.C
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: It seems as if Con misunderstood the importance of Jesus Christs resurrection. John the Apostle of Christ, the author of the Book of Revelation, was a direct witness of Jesus Christ's life and actions. To suggest otherwise is pure sophistry.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Nice effort from Pro, 3:2 n arguments to Con, 1pt to Con as Pro could have used some cleanup.
Vote Placed by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: countering halos vote bomb
Vote Placed by HaloReach 5 years ago
HaloReach
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: why block my bomb?
Vote Placed by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
ianspiglerOre_EleTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had a lot of straw-men arguments. Con had much better arguments and refuted each of the claims brought by pro. This debate is clearly won for con. However, good conduct from both sides.