The Instigator
jesusfreak22
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
19debater19
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

Jesus is God

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
jesusfreak22
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,075 times Debate No: 42113
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (29)
Votes (3)

 

jesusfreak22

Pro

1st round acceptance. Con must prove that Jesus and God are not the same. Please site references to sources, may use biblical references (those must be cited as well). All arguements must be coherant to the topic.
19debater19

Con

1- Jesus is not all knowing:

Mark 24: 32-36:

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

God is all-knowing, Jesus fails this main qualification. This alone is enough to prove that Jesus is not God. Also note the verse says ONLY the Father meaning nobody else, including the divine Jesus.

2- Jesus never said I am God.

Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God:

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I[am] the LORD your God.

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.

Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence.

3- Jesus is the son of man, the OT tells us not to trust the son of man:

The New Testament makes it very clear that Jesus is the son of man:

Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Luk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.

Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

The Old Testament tells us not to put our trust in the son of man:

Psalms 146:

1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

So note, Jesus is the son of man, the OT tells us not to put our trust in the son of man; therefore we cannot place our trust in Jesus so he cannot be God. The OT is basically saying that you shouldn’t put your trust in men as you do with God, so hence we cannot put our trust in Jesus in the same way we do with God since Jesus is just a man, and he cannot really save us. So hence Jesus cannot be God.

1- Jesus is the son of man

2- The OT tells us not to put our trust in the son of man

3- We cannot put our trust in Jesus as we do with God

4- Jesus is not God

The OT also tells us that there is no help in the son of man, therefore this means Jesus cannot help anybody, therefore he is not God since God can help all. So we cannot place our trust in Jesus, nor can he help us, therefore he cannot be God according to the OT.

4- Jesus was GIVEN power and authority, he did not own it.

As we all know, God is all-powerful and is independent, he needs no help from anybody. However so this is not the case with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help from God, unlike God, Jesus does not own any power or any authority, rather it is given to him from God.

Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

So as we can see, Jesus GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracle, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracle. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

I challenge any Christian to bring me one single miracle Jesus performed on his own, just one. The Christian will never be able to meet this challenge.

5- Jesus was sent to a specific nation only, not to mankind

It is very strange that when we read the Bible, we find that Jesus was sent to preach to a specific nation only, not mankind. One would expect to find Jesus being sent to all of mankind if he was God, rather what we find is that Jesus just like all the other prophets, was sent to a specific nation only:

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So as we see, Jesus was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel. His main duty was for them, not the gentiles or the world. Christians often like to say Jesus told his disciples to go preach to the gentiles, however so this doesn’t change anything. Jesus’ real mission as we see was for the children of Israel, not the gentiles, the verse I posted cannot be refuted. The verse is very clear, Jesus is SENT for the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles, Jesus saying go preach to Gentiles does not mean he was sent for gentiles.

5- Jesus denied being good in the sense that God is good.

If Jesus is God one would expect him to admit he is good in the sense that God is good, meaning perfect. However when we read the Bible we see that Jesus denies being good in the sense that God is good which is perfect. Here are the passages:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So note, the man calls Jesus good, Jesus tells the man there is non good but God. Obviously Jesus referred to God as someone else, which also proves Jesus isn’t God. However the main importance of the passages is that Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect.

Debate Round No. 1
jesusfreak22

Pro

My opponent has stated that the Old Testament tells us not to trust the Son of Man. However, I have found 2 flaws. One, Jesus is not called the son of man, he is called the Son of God. Two, my opponent gave the reference Psalms 146:3. My opponent worded the verse "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help". As I stated before, Jesus is the Son of GOD, not man. Allow me to read from my version. " Don't put your confidence in powerful people; there is no help there". (NLT) This is talking about people. All of the verses that my opponent has stated say not to trust Jesus are false. They are misread, because while Jesus was born from a simple woman, he himself is not simple. He is the son of God.

I would like to state the Trinity. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each are God, but they are not each other. The Father is not the Son, the Son not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit not the Father. My opponent has been stating that Jesus is not God the Father, which is correct. However, the topic is Jesus is GOD, which, according to the trinity, concludes it as true.


5- Jesus was sent to a specific nation only, not to mankind
It is very strange that when we read the Bible, we find that Jesus was sent to preach to a specific nation only, not mankind. One would expect to find Jesus being sent to all of mankind if he was God, rather what we find is that Jesus just like all the other prophets, was sent to a specific nation only:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So as we see, Jesus was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel. His main duty was for them, not the gentiles or the world. Christians often like to say Jesus told his disciples to go preach to the gentiles, however so this doesn’t change anything. Jesus’ real mission as we see was for the children of Israel, not the gentiles, the verse I posted cannot be refuted. The verse is very clear, Jesus is SENT for the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles, Jesus saying go preach to Gentiles does not mean he was sent for gentiles.

If my opponent had read on, he would see that this is merely a test of faith. It starts out with a woman begging Jesus to heal her daughter, who has been posessed by Satan. Jesus said, "I have been sent here to save the lost people of Israel". But the woman had faith and Jesus replied, "Your faith is great. I shall heal your child."



5-Jesus denied being good in the sense that God is good.

If Jesus is God one would expect him to admit he is good in the sense that God is good, meaning perfect. However when we read the Bible we see that Jesus denies being good in the sense that God is good which is perfect. Here are the passages:
Mat 19:16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So note, the man calls Jesus good, Jesus tells the man there is non good but God. Obviously Jesus referred to God as someone else, which also proves Jesus isn’t God. However the main importance of the passages is that Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect.

Reading the NLT version vs. King James (which is much harder to understand... seems like Shakespeare!!) it says this: 'Someone came to Jesus with this question:" Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" Jesus replied "Why ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good. But to answer your question, if you want to recieve eternal life, keep the commandments."'
Jesus is telling this man that there is no good he can do that will prove himself worthy of grace. The only one who is without sin is God (which, by the trinity, includes Jesus). The only thing we can do is live by the 10 Commandments.




19debater19

Con

F*ck you.
Debate Round No. 2
jesusfreak22

Pro

Excuse me?
Umm... okay. I believe my previous arguements/rebuttals stand.
19debater19

Con

19debater19 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
LOL Ragnar, Franky is a popular pontiff, very lenient, some think he may be a closet atheist.
Or he is trying real hard to get the popularity vote, in front of the more lenient churches and Christian leaders.
He's certainly more popular than those wackos, Ken Ham and Ray Comfort.
Sometimes I like Franky, such a nice boy!
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
The current Pope would responde along the lines of... Yes he would, no brown nosing needed.

I like the current Pope.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
So does the Bible God only love those who believe in him, otherwise it would let everyone into Heaven.
Not just those that brown nose it!
Though Churches only let those that fill their coffers into Heaven, because they actually worship money more than their God.
Posted by jesusfreak22 2 years ago
jesusfreak22
Wonderful language my opponent uses...
Posted by STALIN 2 years ago
STALIN
Hmm, this debate was interesting.
Posted by janetsanders733 2 years ago
janetsanders733
It's funny how the Quran denies Jesus crucifixion, when virtually almost no ancient historian(secular/non-secular) agree that Jesus Crucifixion is an established fact.

That tells me that the Quran is a lie. Allah is not God. Allah is Satan. Allah does not love sinners, unbeilevers like you and me. He only loves those who do believe in him.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Funny how Jesus was nothing like the God of the Old Testament.
The O.T. God was a Murderous, Narcissistic Megalomaniac.
Jesus was a little Narcissistic, though not murderous like the O.T. God who murdered a million times more people than Satan.
Some idiots even claim that the serpent in Genesis, Garden of Eden was Satan, but if you read your Bible's properly, Satan didn't even appear until Chronicles 21,so it was not Satan, nor a Devil, because devils arrived in Leviticus as plural, lots of devils with no real leader. Thus Satan did not even exist in Leviticus.
The serpent in he garden of Eden was put their by God, proving that God does create Evil, not good.
Though the O.T. goes overboard in proving its God is one very evil entity.
Jesus was nothing like that.
They are not the same!
Definitely!
Posted by JonathanDJ 2 years ago
JonathanDJ
Daniel 7:13
13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
This is how Jesus is using that expression. Just because God uses that expression in one sense in another place doesn't mean He can't use it with a different sense somewhere else; as He clearly does here.
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The word of God answers our questions about Jesus' deity without ambiguity.
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
Yeah... too high of a character limit.
Posted by jesusfreak22 2 years ago
jesusfreak22
I wish that Con had given me more than just a bunch of biblical references. While I don't mind the use of them, most have no connection whatsoever. It seems as though Con did a search on all verses with a certain word or phrase, then pasted them on here. Most are completly irrevalent. I spend an hour going through the verses, looking for revelant ones.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by philochristos 2 years ago
philochristos
jesusfreak2219debater19Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Well, that was kind of a crazy end to this debate. Conduct to Pro for Con's rude behavior. Arguments to Pro for Con's forfeit.
Vote Placed by Josh_b 2 years ago
Josh_b
jesusfreak2219debater19Tied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's rebuttals were ultra weak and made no proof of the premise. She demands biblical references, yet provides none herself. This is very disappointing but does not make it necessary for con to curse at her. I found con's resources in round one to be reliable but the statements in round 2 and 3 led me to believe that his overall resources were questionable (no points awarded).
Vote Placed by Silentsvc 2 years ago
Silentsvc
jesusfreak2219debater19Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct was obviously to Pro. Pro had better grammar. Con had good arguments but instead of driving them home, he chose to waste his rounds. No one used sources so that is a tie.