The Instigator
radz
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
tahir.imanov
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points

Jesus is God

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
radz
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 534 times Debate No: 59078
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (3)

 

radz

Pro

This debate challenge is strictly only for anti-Trinitarians with anti-Trinitarian arguments.

RULES

Only the Christian Bible will be used as the ultimate source. Other references are only for interpretation support of a cited scripture.

Round 1 Pro's argument / Con's rebuttal
Round 2 Pro's rebuttal /Con's argument
Round 3 Pro's final rebuttal/ Con's final rebuttal
Round 4 Con's closing remarks / Pros' closing remarks

NOTES

Jesus is God means "Jesus is God by nature" because the word "God" is used as an ADJECTIVE.

Eisegesis never wins. Exegesis always wins. Also, a text without a context is a pretext.

Pro's argument

Jesus affirms the godhood of his Father several times in the Holy Scriptures.

But every single time he proclaims his Father’s godhood he also simultaneously , by implication, proclaims his own godhood because he is making the Father known as God by expressing the fact of his filial relationship with him.

In John 17:1-3, Jesus repeatedly spoke of his filial relationship with the Father in mentioning the terms “Father” and “Son” in their respective tasks.

"Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

In this texts, specially in verse 3, we read that Jesus calls his Father ” the only true God.”

Jesus is not excluding himself away from the godhood of the Father but rather, he is emphasizing it by affirming his Father’s true godhood.

What makes one a “true God”?

In the Old Testament, we found numerous references stating YHWH alone is the true God as opposed to those false gods worshiped by other nations and we know that this is true, having known his attributes displayed hand-in-hand with the affirmation of his being true God.

Jeremiah 10:10 — But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

2 Chronicles 15:3 — Now for a long time Israel has been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

2 Kings 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

The same principle in teaching this ancient monotheism is readily seen in the New Testament in a much explicit way. In Galatians 4:8, it is said that Christians in Galatia were formerly slaves of false gods who are not really gods “by nature.” This is an important mark to determine the genuineness of one’s godhood and in the case of Jesus Christ, his godhood is attested not only by having the nature of God as the Scriptures show but also by revealing in what way is he God by nature and this is by being the Son of God.

John 10:28-30 — I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my FATHER’S HAND. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

Deuteronomy 32:39 — 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and GIVE LIFE. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from MY HAND.



tahir.imanov

Con

Everyone knows the three laws of Logic - The Laws of Identity, Non-Contradiction, and Excluded Middle.

So, lets first identify God and Jesus.
God - Creator; Independent; Subordinate to No-one; All-Knowing; To Whom everything belongs; The only One who exempt from death (as Bible says only Immortal).
Jesus - Creation of God, Dependent on gravity, air, food, water; Subordinate to God, prays to God, asks for help; Ignorant; Nothing belongs to Jesus; And also not exempt from death.

Using brain and Law of non-contradiction we can say Jesus is not God. But some people stupid, and they will bring up some verses and misinterpret it in order to try to prove their point (if they have a point).

John17:1-3 proves nothing, because it says "...You (God) have given Him (Jesus) authority...." and it proves that Jesus cannot be God, because God cannot be given authority, because God has the All-Authority there to have. These verses shows that Jesus has a boss, but God cannot have a boss.

John10:28-30 is misinterpreted by Pro, because after Jesus said "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE." Jews pick up the stones to stone him, and Jesus asked them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" and Jews said, we don't stone you for good works, but for blasphemy, showing that Jews understood same thing as Pro today, but Jesus said, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods" ' " - showing them they misunderstood him, because if you interpret "I and my Father are one" to mean Jesus claims to be god, then all Jews were called gods by God, so you should interpret it in same way, and worship Jews.
But Jesus also says (or rather prays to God) make disciples one with us, therefore disciples are also gods.

And also, giving life to death, go read OT, OT prophets gave life to death also....
Debate Round No. 1
radz

Pro

Everyone knows the three laws of Logic - The Laws of Identity, Non-Contradiction, and Excluded Middle.

I know all of it too and I totally agree with all of these.

So, lets first identify God and Jesus.
God - Creator; Independent; Subordinate to No-one; All-Knowing; To Whom everything belongs; The only One who exempt from death (as Bible says only Immortal).
Jesus - Creation of God, Dependent on gravity, air, food, water; Subordinate to God, prays to God, asks for help; Ignorant; Nothing belongs to Jesus; And also not exempt from death.

Using brain and Law of non-contradiction we can say Jesus is not God. But some people stupid, and they will bring up some verses and misinterpret it in order to try to prove their point (if they have a point).

Using only both the brain and the Law of non-contradiction do not suffice because the whole context of the Scriptures must also be used.

My opponent only listed the human qualities of Jesus Christ and that is incomplete information about Jesus because the Bible also listed the divine qualities of Jesus Christ: Eternal ( John 1:1,14,18, 3:16,18, 1 John 1:1-3, 4:19), Immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16--> Revelation 17:4. 19:16, Acts 9:3-9), Independent existence ( John 5:26), Equal to God in nature ( John 5:18, Philippians 2:6, Exodus 3:14--> Matthew 28:19), One with the Father in nature (John 10:28-30 --> Deuteronomy 32:39), Jesus instruct Christians to pray to Him ( Psalm 2:8--> John 14:14), Jesus instructs Christians to baptise not only in the name of the Father but also in the name of the Son ( Matthew 28:19).

The paradox of Jesus' God-nature and human-nature is resolved in the Christian doctrine of the incarnation.In fact, this teaching is explicit in the Scriptures and it explains how God loved and saved his people from their sins( John 1:1,14, Hebrews 2:14, 1 Timothy 3:16).

John17:1-3 proves nothing, because it says "...You (God) have given Him (Jesus) authority...." and it proves that Jesus cannot be God, because God cannot be given authority, because God has the All-Authority there to have. These verses shows that Jesus has a boss, but God cannot have a boss.

The argument of my opponent assumes Unitarian Christology but the text in question does not necessitate it and in fact, it causes great tension and contradictions when it is forced into the text. John 17:2 only speaks of God giving his Son "authority" not "ability." Jesus has innate ability and he is under the Father's authority. These both is natural for him because he is the Son.In High Christology, this means that Jesus is simultaneously functionally subordinate to God and ontologically equal to him.

John10:28-30 is misinterpreted by Pro, because after Jesus said "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE." Jews pick up the stones to stone him, and Jesus asked them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" and Jews said, we don't stone you for good works, but for blasphemy, showing that Jews understood same thing as Pro today, but Jesus said, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods" ' " - showing them they misunderstood him, because if you interpret "I and my Father are one" to mean Jesus claims to be god, then all Jews were called gods by God, so you should interpret it in same way, and worship Jews.
But Jesus also says (or rather prays to God) make disciples one with us, therefore disciples are also gods.

My opponent did not consider the context of the text in question. He held onto the defense of Christ in vain for the very words of the Savior spoke of his true godhood by his sonship.Con took this for granted.

Here's the context of John 10:30:

John 10:28-30 — I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my FATHER’S HAND. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

Deuteronomy 32:39 — 'See now that I, I am He, AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME; It is I who put to death and GIVE LIFE. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from MY HAND.

John 10:31-Jesus asked if his good deeds were the reason for his death penalty ( Note that Jesus already knows the answer to his question. He only asked it to reveal his nature by his identity through his works - John 10:25).
John 10:32-The Jews said no.
John 10:33-Rather, the Jews said that it is because Jesus, who "being a human" ( Greek: on anthropon)makes himself "God" ( Greek: theos).
John 10:34-38 Jesus' defense of his claim in John 10:28-30, 33 using a twofold rebuttal:

1) Godship- If humans can be called "gods" by reason of a God-given authority then how much more proper and good the Son be called "God" if he is truly such by his very nature? Jesus made this argument from a solid basis, the Scriptures per-se ( Psalm 82:6-7).

2) Sonship- The reason of Jesus' sonship is his godship. Jesus is God [ by nature] because he is the Son of God [ the Father].This recalls his words in John 10:28-30 which made the Jews desirous to kill Jesus.The words of Jesus " I in the Father vise versa" and "I and the Father are one" speaks of a "unity" and based on both the immediate context and the greater context it is unity in nature ( John 10:28-30, Deuteronomy 32:39).


And also, giving life to death, go read OT, OT prophets gave life to death also....

Notice the texts:

John 10:28-30 — I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my FATHER’S HAND. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

Deuteronomy 32:39 — 'See now that I, I am He, AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME; It is I who put to death and GIVE LIFE. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from MY HAND.

It is clear in the greater context of John 10:28-30 that Jesus is not equating himself with the OT prophets in terms of giving life but rather, he is equating himself with the OT God in terms not only of giving life but also of preserving it.

tahir.imanov

Con


Those are not just random laws, they are Laws of Logic and they are axioms, they are true in all times, in all places, for everyone and everything. If something contradicts these Laws, then that something is just wrong. So when you say Jesus is dependent, by definition he is not God, because only God is independent, or when Jesus said he doesn’t have any authority, and everything he has was given to him, by definition he is not God, because God has the All Authority, and no one can give to God any Power or Authority.


If you say Jesus was divine and entered into this world by taking human form, then at the time he entered into this world, he became dependent on every Laws of Universe, Logic, and etc. (including Law of Non-Contradiction) so by definition he cannot be God.


And also, 1 Corinthians 15:24 says, - “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.” So Jesus will return everything to God, which means nothing will left for Jesus, which means god who has nothing is not god.


My opponent only listed the human qualities of Jesus Christ and that is incomplete information about Jesus because the Bible also listed the divine qualities of Jesus Christ: Eternal ( John 1:1,14,18, 3:16,18, 1 John 1:1-3, 4:19), Immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16--> Revelation 17:4. 19:16, Acts 9:3-9), Independent existence ( John 5:26), Equal to God in nature ( John 5:18, Philippians 2:6, Exodus 3:14--> Matthew 28:19), One with the Father in nature (John 10:28-30 --> Deuteronomy 32:39), Jesus instruct Christians to pray to Him ( Psalm 2:8--> John 14:14), Jesus instructs Christians to baptise not only in the name of the Father but also in the name of the Son ( Matthew 28:19).” – Pro.


John1:1 – When Christians say God, they mean The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son, therefore John1:1 should be read as, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son, and the Word was The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son.” Now it is quadrat. If you say here God refers to The Father, you have to prove it based on evidence. (Evidence: the available body of facts indicating proposition is true.)


John1:1,14,18, John3:16,18 don’t prove or even suggest that Jesus is eternal, there is no way of getting such information from these verses, in this universe. But John1:18 says very interesting thing (which is true) “No one has seen God”- therefore Jesus cannot be God, because he wasn’t an invisible man. And none of them are words of Jesus, but author's. (Who is the author?!)


Immortal – Jesus is not immortal, because Bible says he died. And Immortality doesn’t apply to resurrected beings. Simply because, immortal means one who exempt from dead, and to be resurrected one needs to die. They are mutually exclusive.


Jesus doesn’t have independent existence, how did you get that? It is heretical to say that, even according to Bible. Because if Jesus has independent existence, therefore He is an independent god. Which also means there are more than one independent gods.


Equal to God in nature – Instead of God let’s use The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son. “Equal to The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son.


Paradox – Do you even know what Paradox is?! (I just shot myself.)


The argument of my opponent assumes Unitarian Christology,” – Pro.


Firstly, I am not Christian, and secondly when I assume something, I say it, because otherwise it would be a fallacy.


John 17:2 only speaks of God giving his Son,” – Pro.


By definition, one who is given an authority cannot be god, because God has All authority, no one gives to God an authority, and God cannot be given an authority.


John 10:28-30 — I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my FATHER’S HAND. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”


Deuteronomy 32:39 — 'See now that I, I am He, AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME; It is I who put to death and GIVE LIFE. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from MY HAND.


Actually, I said it to you before and saying it again, the NT is in Greek, OT is in Hebrew, therefore you cannot equate the English translation of verses from separate testaments, simply because even so there translation is same or similar, in their original language, this words has different context. Therefore “I am,” or “My hand” means nothing.



Thank you for reading……..


Debate Round No. 2
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
tahir.imanov

Con

Waiting for Pro's argument.....
Debate Round No. 3
radz

Pro

I am sorry for not posting my refutations againts my opponent. There had been a devastating tymphoon [ Rammasun] that hit my area [ Metro, Manila Philippines] that caused brownout for several days. My internet connection just got fix just this afternoon of 07/25/2014.

Those are not just random laws, they are Laws of Logic and they are axioms, they are true in all times, in all places, for everyone and everything. If something contradicts these Laws, then that something is just wrong. So when you say Jesus is dependent, by definition he is not God, because only God is independent, or when Jesus said he doesn’t have any authority, and everything he has was given to him, by definition he is not God, because God has the All Authority, and no one can give to God any Power or Authority.

Of course, these laws are always true in our natural world. God is beyond this world. He's a transcended being. This is Christian Theology per-se.

Jesus, being dependent of the Father both in nature and authority does not mean that he is not one in nature with the Father but rather, it only reinforces the fact that his true Son-ship is the evidence of his true Godhood ( John 10:28-30).

If you say Jesus was divine and entered into this world by taking human form, then at the time he entered into this world, he became dependent on every Laws of Universe, Logic, and etc. (including Law of Non-Contradiction) so by definition he cannot be God.

Yes. I agree but not using your innate ability does not mean you lose it. The Scriptures plainly states that Jesus only unclothed his God-form by taking on Slave's-form ( Philippians 2:6-7). When you unclothe you are just not using the clothe you own.

And also, 1 Corinthians 15:24 says, - “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.” So Jesus will return everything to God, which means nothing will left for Jesus, which means god who has nothing is not god.

1 Corinthians 15:24 does not say that Christ will return "everything" to God. It only says he will hands over "the kingdom" to God. Nothing more, nothing else.

John1:1 – When Christians say God, they mean The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son, therefore John1:1 should be read as, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son, and the Word was The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son.” Now it is quadrat. If you say here God refers to The Father, you have to prove it based on evidence. (Evidence: the available body of facts indicating proposition is true.)

According to the context of the texts in question, here's the evidence that the Father is the God whom the Word was with in the beginning:

John 1:1In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John1:1,14,18, John3:16,18 don’t prove or even suggest that Jesus is eternal, there is no way of getting such information from these verses, in this universe. But John1:18 says very interesting thing (which is true) “No one has seen God”- therefore Jesus cannot be God, because he wasn’t an invisible man. And none of them are words of Jesus, but author's. (Who is the author?!)

Finish the text. Remember that a text without a context is just a pretext.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. ---> Yes. no one has seen God but the Son, being God by nature, reveals God based on this verse. Check out John 14:9

John 1:1In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. ---> In this verse, Jesus is shown to be with the Father before everything came into existence ( v. 3).

Immortal – Jesus is not immortal, because Bible says he died. And Immortality doesn’t apply to resurrected beings. Simply because, immortal means one who exempt from dead, and to be resurrected one needs to die. They are mutually exclusive.

The Word who was God became flesh ( John 1:1,14). Jesus is immortal in his divinity while mortal in his humanity. Human death mean separation of both human body and human soul ( Genesis 2:7 ---> James 2:26). At human death, Jesus did not cease to exists.

Jesus doesn’t have independent existence, how did you get that? It is heretical to say that, even according to Bible. Because if Jesus has independent existence, therefore He is an independent god. Which also means there are more than one independent gods.

He is. Independent existence or self-existence is an attribute of the Son of God. In fact, he himself said it so in John 5:26.

Equal to God in nature – Instead of God let’s use The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son. “Equal to The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son.”

Paradox – Do you even know what Paradox is?! (I just shot myself.)

I know what Paradox is but what are you trying to say here?

“John 17:2 only speaks of God giving his Son,” – Pro.

By definition, one who is given an authority cannot be god, because God has All authority, no one gives to God an authority, and God cannot be given an authority.

That is your own private interpretation. The God we are talking about is the God of the Christian Bible.God has a Son and a Spirit and it does not make God two or three for God's nature is one. The Scriptures speaks of "One God, three Persons" ( Matthew 28:19). The Trinity doctrine is very logical. There are not three natures that exist but only one and not only one person that exists but three. We do not teach either Tritheism or Pantheism but rather, we only teach Trinitarianism.

Actually, I said it to you before and saying it again, the NT is in Greek, OT is in Hebrew, therefore you cannot equate the English translation of verses from separate testaments, simply because even so there translation is same or similar, in their original language, this words has different context. Therefore “I am,” or “My hand” means nothing.

My opponent has ignored the obvious allusion of Jesus' words to the OT Scriptures. The writers of the NT Scriptures itself quotes and alludes many times in the OT. My opponent's stance holds no water and is null and void.

“John 10:28-30 — I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my FATHER’S HAND. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

Deuteronomy 32:39 — 'See now that I, I am He, AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME; It is I who put to death and GIVE LIFE. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from MY HAND.”


May the readers be edified in the truth.
tahir.imanov

Con

"Of course, these laws are always true in our natural world. God is beyond this world. He's a transcended being. This is Christian Theology per-se," - PRO.
So, are you saying God is beyond Logic, Reason, and Rationality.

"Jesus, being dependent of the Father both in nature and authority does not mean that he is not one in nature with the Father but rather, it only reinforces the fact that his true Son-ship is the evidence of his true Godhood ( John 10:28-30)," - PRO.
If A is dependent on B it means A is not, or not equal to B.

"unclothed his God-form by taking on Slave's-form," - PRO.
if you read Bible you would know that, your Bible says, nothing can contain God. If nothing can contain God, this includes universe and everything in it, therefore God cannot come into universe, because universe cannot contain Him.

"It only says he will hands over "the kingdom" to God. Nothing more, nothing else," - PRO.
The Kingdom includes everything God gave to Jesus, doesn't it. And Jesus returned everything back.

"John 1:1In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. ---> In this verse, Jesus is shown to be with the Father before everything came into existence ( v. 3)," - PRO.
You first have to prove God here refers to The Father, not to trinity. Then you can make point.

"Jesus is immortal in his divinity while mortal in his humanity," - PRO.
Nothing and nobody can be immortal and mortal, divine and human at the same time. Law of Non-contradiction.

"Independent existence or self-existence is an attribute of the Son of God," - PRO.
If Jesus is an independent god, therefore there are more than one independent gods. Polytheism.

"That is your own private interpretation," - PRO.
That is Bible's interpretation.

Only way you can prove divinity of Jesus, by disproving Law of Non-contradiction.


Thank you for reading.

And, Long Live Logic.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by tahir.imanov 2 years ago
tahir.imanov
Oh my God, @daley - "Con ignored many Scriptures and points in Pro's argument for most of the debate," if scripture contradicts basic laws of logic, then by definition scripture is wrong. And it cannot be used as evidence, and furthermore Bible cannot be used as evidence because it is a claim, you need evidence to support claim, Using claim as evidence for claim, is jut non-sense. Study Logic....
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
ya same, plus the "Christian bible" you realize there's like 30 different bibles
Posted by KhalifV 2 years ago
KhalifV
So atheists can't accept? I'm an atheist, and I'm pretty sure I can win this debate through the law of non-contradiction.
Posted by thenewkidd 2 years ago
thenewkidd
Anti trinity?.. does that mean you have to not believe the father son and holy ghost are one and the same?
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by daley 2 years ago
daley
radztahir.imanovTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con loses conduct for saying that people who believe Jesus is God are "stupid." Many intelligent, sensible people believe this. Con ignored many Scriptures and points in Pro's argument for most of the debate, and showed a misunderstanding of the Trinity. He didn't understand the difference between functional and ontological subordinism.
Vote Placed by GOP 2 years ago
GOP
radztahir.imanovTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: radz refuted Con's arguments by saying that God is beyond logic, so Con's attempts to use laws like non-contradiction don't mean anything. Also, I think Pro used a lot of Bible verses to prove the divinity of Christ. Also, radz gets points for reliable sources since he used a lot of Bible verses to prove that Jesus is God.
Vote Placed by Artur 2 years ago
Artur
radztahir.imanovTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Law of non-contradiction sealt the debate. As response, the only thing Pro was able to do in a debate was to say "god is beyond that" BUT IT shows nothing. It is like somebody saying "I am beyond logic" when he makes an error. By the way, CON had logical conduct while Pro had conduct which seemd like trying to convince me to accept to be lied.