The Instigator
Mr.Infidel
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
NewCreature
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Jesus is Not the Messiah

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Mr.Infidel
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/10/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,295 times Debate No: 19014
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (33)
Votes (1)

 

Mr.Infidel

Pro


Resolution

Jesus is not the messiah that was predicted in the Old Testament.

The opponents of the debate, and what positions they will argue.

Mr.Infidel is possitive, my opponent is negative.

The length of the debate, in number of rounds.

Arguments begin in round 2

There are a total of 4 rounds.

The maximum length of each statement.

8,000 characters.

The time limit between statements.


72 hours.

Burden of Proof

Either I have the full BOP or my opponent can share the BOP. Either one works for me. If my opponent chooses the latter, I request a max of 3 messianic prophecies that Jesus allegedly fulfilled so I can have the most time to rebut them.
______________________________

For the Old Testament, I request my opponent use the JPS translator available online at chabad.org

Thesis:

Jesus is not the Jewish messiah because he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies, and he did not embody the personal qualifications to be the messiah.

Messiah: The messiah is a Hebrew word meaning annointed one. Generally, this is being PROPERLY annointed with oil. I will explain in round 2.

DO NOT ACCEPT IF YOU ARE JUST GOING TO PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE! PLEASE BE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS DEBATE! IF YOU TROLL, I WILL BLOCK YOU!

NewCreature

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Mr.Infidel

Pro

What will the Messiah do?

  1. The messiah will fulfill the messianic prophecies.
  2. Jesus did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.
  3. Therefore, Jesus is not the messiah.

In order for one to understand premise 2, one must understand exactly what the Messiah will do. The Messiah is going to: (1) Build the Third Temple; (2) Gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel; (3) Usher in an era of world peace, end all hatred, suffering, oppression, and disease; and (4) Spread the universal knowledge of God of Israel, which will unite all of humanity as one.

A. Build the Third Temple

Ezekiel 37:26-28 says, “And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a G-d, and they shall be to Me as a people. And the nations shall know that I am the L-rd, Who sanctifies Israel, when my Sanctuary is in their midst forever. "

B. Gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel

Isaiah 43:5-6, “Fear not for I am with you; from the east I will bring your seed, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, “Give,” and to the south, “Do not refrain”; bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the ends of the earth.”

C. Usher in an era of world peace

Isaiah 2:4, “Nations shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.”

D. Spread the universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, which will unite humanity as one.

Zechariah 14:9, “G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be the One and His Name will be One.”

.

This is what the Messiah will do. It is a historical fact Jesus did NOT fulfill ANY of this. Therefore, he cannot be the Messiah.

Jesus did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of the Messiah

A. Jesus as a descendent of David.

  1. The messiah will be a descendent of David.
  2. Jesus was born of a virgin.
  3. Therefore, it is impossible for Jesus to have been a legal descendent of David.
  4. Therefore, Jesus is not the messiah.

According to prophecy, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like ordinary people. He will not be a demigod, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah MUST descend on his father’s side from King David. If we take the Christian idea that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he had no father—and could not have fulfilled this particular qualification to be Messiah.

According to Jewish Law, the father is the parent that gives the legal heritage, whilst the mother determines whether or not the child is a Jew.

B. Torah Observance

  1. The messiah will lead the Jewish people back to full Torah observance.
  2. Jesus led people away from the Torah.
  3. Therefore, he was not the Messiah.

According to Deuteronomy 13:1-4, anyone who attempts to change the Torah is identified as a false prophet.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts that Torah.

  1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19).
    He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
  2. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).

With those 3 things, it becomes abundantly clear Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

  1. The Messiah will not be God.
  2. Jesus claimed to be God.
  3. Therefore, Jesus is not Messiah.

The messiah will NOT be a demi-god like Jesus allegedly was. In fact, the concept of the trinity has no greater foe than the “Old” Testament.

  1. "G-d is not a man, who can lie, nor the son of man, who relents... He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen perverseness in Israel" (Numbers 23:19).
  2. "For their 'rock' is not like our Rock... Where is their god, in whom they trusted?" (Deut. 32:31, 37).
  3. "'See now that I, only I, am He, and there is no god with Me. I kill, and I bring to life; I wound, and I heal, and there is none who can rescue from My Hand...' Sing songs of joy, gentiles, with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will take vengeance on His enemies, and will forgive His land and His people" (Deut. 32:39, 43).
  4. "I, only I am Hashem (the L-rd), and besides Me there is no savior" (Isaiah 43:11).
  5. "I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god... Is there a god besides Me? There is no rock; I do not know any" (Isaiah 44:6).

Indeed, the doctrine of the trinity has no greater foe than that of the Christian “Old” testament. There are countless verses that deal with the unity of G-d. Christian missionaries have long since recognized and admitted that the Jews NEVER understood G-d to be a trinity; hence we can conclude there is probably no reason to believe in it.

C. The Messiah as a Prophet

  1. The Messiah will be a prophet. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)
  2. Jesus was not a prophet.
  3. Therefore, he was not the Messiah.

In order to prove point 2, I shall prove that he could NOT have been a prophet because: (1) He failed the litmus test, and (2) Prophecy did not exist at the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

JESUS FAILED THE LITMUS TEST

The Torah gives us a litmus test in order to show us who the real prophets are and who the false prophets are. In this litmus test, there are three ways to know whether or not we should trust a man who claims to be a prophet: (1) If his prophecies fail, he is not a true prophet; (2) If he attempts to change the Torah, he is a false prophet; and (3) If he attempts to bring Israel into idolatry, he is a false prophet.

Jesus’ prophecies failed.

  1. A true prophet from G-d will not have any failed prophecies.
  2. Jesus’ prophecies failed.
  3. Therefore, he was not from G-d.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

According to this prophecy, there are seven things that will happen: (1) The sun will be darkened; (2) The moon will not give light; (3) The stars will fall from the sky; (4) This generation will not pass away until all of this has been fulfilled; (5) The sign of the Son of Man shall appear; (6) He will gather his elect from the four winds; and (7) The tribes of the earth will mourn.


Rabbi Shraga Simmons. “Why Jews Reject Jesus.” http://www.aish.com......

Author Unknown. “Who was Jesus”? http://www.noahide.com......

Rabbi Tovia Singer. “Passages That Show G-d’s Unity.” http://www.outreachjudaism.org......

NewCreature

Con

Thank you Mr. Infidel (Pro) for this debate. I will try my best to compress this massive subject into 3 rounds. We won't be able to cover everything in this debate and I am open to more debates after this one regarding this topic. Pro lists numerous topics that each deserves its own debate. I seriously doubt that we can get in to much detail with any of them. So I apologize in advance if end up responding with brief and not as detailed responses.

Pro has basically 2 arguments for his claim that Jesus is not the prophesied messiah.

1. He did not do what the messiah was prophesied to do.

Pro in arguing this, did not really argue but simply asserted that "It is a historical fact Jesus did NOT fulfill ANY of this." Can I counter that with simply saying that it is a historical fact that Jesus DID fulfill all of this? He pretty much shifted all the burden of proof on me on this topic. Not that I did not expect this, but this puts me in a tough position to explain each point within the character limits.

2. Jesus did not meet the personal qualifications of the messiah.
At least here, Pro gave us his interpretation of the provided scriptures, but again, the BoP is all on me.

Pro's assertions pretty much requires me to talk about a big portion of Jesus' identity and ministry. I hope the readers will take this into consideration. I will try my best to argue against each topic as in depth as I can, with in the character and round limitations.


WHAT THE MESSIAH WILL DO


A lot more was prophesied about what the messiah will do, but for now I will only focus on what Pro listed. Hopefully I'll have the opportunity to discuss all the other major prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

A. Build the third temple

It's interestingly ironic that Pro used Ezekiel 37:26-28 for this. Pro did not give us his interpretation and I ask that he does so in the next round.
The Christian view regarding the temple based on the what the apostles wrote in the NT is that Jesus Himself is the true temple. Jesus epitomizes what the temple is and it's purpose. And his followers, God's people, being Jesus's extension (Jesus being the head while the church is the body) are also the new temple of God.

[Paul] refers to the church, and indeed to individual Christians, as the ‘temple of the living God’ (1 Cor. 3:16, 6:19). (1)

This fulfills Ezekiel 37:26-28. In God's new covenant, He will no longer dwell in a physical temple building, but rather, He will place his sanctuary in the midst of His people and his dwelling place shall be over them forever.

B. Gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel

Pro cited Isaiah 43:5-6 where it talks about God gathering back his sons and daughters from the ends of the earth.

The NT interpretation of this passage is that it is only the true Israel that will be gathered, for they are the true sons and daughters of God. Only a remnant of Israel will return just as it says in Israel 10:21-22.

As for who is the true Israel, the NT view is this:
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." Romans 9:6-8

Jesus did this. He gathered God's lost people from all over the nations back to God.


C. Usher in an era of world peace

Pro cites Isaiah 2:4

2 things here:
1. The condition is submission to the influence of the reign of the Messiah. (v. 3)

Nothing remains to be done to make peace universal but to send the gospel abroad through every land. When that is done, the nations will be disposed to peace; and the prophet, therefore, has predicted the universal prevalence of peace "only" when all nations shall be brought under the influence of the gospel. (2)

2. This is metaphorical.
The Prophet speaks metaphorically about the kingdom of Christ, which leads men, through mutual kindness, to become reconciled to each other. The Scriptures frequently employ a metaphor, in which the thing signified is denoted by a sign; as in that passage. (3)

Universal peace is only within the kingdom of messiah, under the influence of his reign, the gospel of Christ.



D. Spread the universal knowledge of G-d of Israel, which will unite humanity as one

Jesus is the one man that made Israel's God known to the WHOLE world. But where in Zecharaiah 14:9 that all of humanity will be united as one? It only says that the whole world will have undeniable knowledge of the LORD. Jesus remarkably did this!

Romans 14:9-12

"For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living...

for it is written (Isaiah 45),
"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess[b] to God."

So then each of us will give an account of himself to God."


Jesus' death and resurrection is Gods ultimate revelation, there is now no excuse for ignorance of the LORD.



PERSONAL QUALIFATIONS OF THE MESSIAH

There are more personal criteria that the messiah had to meet than what Pro listed that were all fulfilled by Jesus, but for now I will only talk about what Pro listed.


A. Descendant of David

Con fallaciously argues that since Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is not therefore a descendant of David.

1. His genealogy shows us that his biological mother, Mary and his legal father, Joseph, were both descendants of David. No one, not even his enemies, back when they still had genealogy records, accused Jesus of not being a son of David.

2. David calls the messiah his Lord, Psalm 110. The messiah is both the son of David and the Lord of David.

In Matthew 22:43-45, Jesus asks the Pharises a rhetorical question,

How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet’?”

The messiah will be both the seed of David, and the Lord of David. Jesus fulfilled this.


B. Torah observance

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”

We can go on and on about this topic, but the NT does not at all claim that Jesus abolished the laws, but in fact fulfilled them.

For example, Jesus fulfilled the sabbatical law by claiming to be the true sabbath himself. We must rest in Christ and his work, lest we die.

Regarding dietary laws,
1. In the passages that Pro cited, the issue was actually about eating with uncleaned hands, and not eating unclean (non kosher) foods.
2. The purpose of dietary laws (besides health reasons), like circumcision, was to make Israel distinct from other nations. That was the old covenant, God made a new covenant with His people in Christ. Though there is nothing wrong with eating kosher, or resting on the sabbath, Jesus fulfilled these OT laws not contradict them.

Regarding the messiah being God, explain these passages:

Isaiah 9:6
Jeremiah 23:5-6
Psalm 110:1
Proverbs 30:4
Psalm 45:6-7
Zechariah 2:10


C. The messiah was a prophet

Pro argues that Jesus was a false prophet since Matthew 24:29:35 was not fulfilled. But the Christian interpretation of this passage is that all those things will happen before the second coming of the Messiah. "Generation" is not literal, it is referring to an age, or era which Christians believe started after Jesus' first coming and will end in his return.

Jesus was indeed a prophet, Pro can go ahead and give us another prophecy by Jesus that is allegedly wrong, and I will defend it.


(1) N. T. Wright, "Jerusalem in the New Testament" (1994)
(2) Notes on the Bible by Albert Barnes [1834]

(3) John Calvin's Commentaries
Debate Round No. 2
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Thank you for your well-thought out rebuttals. I can tell that you are indeed a worthy partner for this debate, and I also would be willing to debate this topic in part II if needed.

1. Jesus did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies.

==> To counter this, my opponent ignores the historical fact and replies "Can I counter that with simply saying that it is a historical fact that Jesus DID fulfill all of this? He pretty much shifted all the burden of proof on me on this topic." I did not shift the BoP upon you, as it is clear to anyone that Jesus did not rebuild the third temple, usher in an era of peace, gather the Jewish nation to Israel, and bring us back to Torah observance.

A. Build the Third Temple

My partner suggests that Jesus did, in fact, fulfill this messianic prophecy as the church is the temple. However, it is clear to anyone who reads this that it is a literal temple. Interestingly enough, there are Christians who do agree with MY interpretation. [1]

Moreover, it is clear throughout the Tanakh that not only will the temple be rebuilt, but the sacrificial system will also resume. [2]

B. Gather the Nation of Israel back to the Land of Israel

Indeed, this still has not been fulfilled. My partner counters that this talks about the righteous remnant of Israel, and that Jesus fulfilled this by bringing them back to G-d. This is false as: (1) Very few people accepted Jesus as Messiah. In fact, Jesus was FAR from popular. [3] (2) The prophecy clearly refers to a literal gathering to the nation of Israel and an end of exile--not to a return to G-d. [4]

C. Usher in an era of world peace

Two things wrong with my partner's interpretation: (1) This is not metamorphic, and (2) The prophecy suggests that the Messiah will come, and EVERYONE will know the G-d of Israel. [5] Moreover, when we look at Isaiah 53, it becomes clear that the prophecy is referring to the nation's astonashment at the rise of Israel. [6]

D. Spread the Universal Knowlege of G-d that will unite humanity as one

My partner argues Jesus fulfills this, but it is very clear he did not: (1) There is god excuse to reject the belief in a god, (2) The saying in Romans 14 is supposedly another far off prophecy that cannot be fulfilled., (3) The ultimate revelation is not the resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus, rather it is the national revelation on Mount Sinai.

My opponent asks, "Where does it say that the Messiah is going to unite humanity as one?" The answer, in the very next verse!

The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.

The great comentator, Rashi, explains The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain. The mountains will be lowered, and the whole world will be a plain; and Jerusalem will be a mountain, so that it should appear higher than everything [else in the world]. [7]

2. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

A. The Messiah will come from David through Solomon

Because only the father can bring a legal heritige, Jesus' virgin birth denies that Jesus could possibly have a legal heritige through Solomon.

"The Lord said to my Lord" is a mistranslation. Rather, the proper translation is "The Lord said to my master." The first Lord is a name for God, whilst the second lord has nothing to do with G-d or the Messiah. Moreover, Jews for Judaism explains, "Mark's rendering uses the Greek word kyrios, "lord," twice in the sentence, and the Christian translations into English capitalize the initial letter of the word to read "Lord" in both instances. Jesus' discourse is only possible if he and those he spoke to were conversing in Greek. The exegetical problems that Mark's Jesus refers to are only apparent in the Greek rendering and renderings from the Greek into other languages. In the Greek text, the initial kyrios is a reference to "the Lord," that is, God, and translates the Tetragrammaton (Y- H-V-H, the four letter name of God often referred to in Hebrew as HASHEM--THE NAME). The second kyrios, renders 'adoni, "my master," "my lord" (which according to Mark's understanding refers to "the Christ"). That is, the Greek, kyrios, is used to render two separate and distinct Hebrew words in the Greek translation. The confusion it creates in Greek does not exist in the Hebrew original. As a result, the Marcan Jesus' exegesis is non-existent in the Hebrew and incorrect in its understanding of the Greek rendering." [8]

Torah Observance

It does not matter if Jesus fulfilled them or not. The "Old Testament" laws are STILL applicable as the Torah is eternal. Moreover, throughout the rest of the New Testament, it is apparent that the early church believed that they were more than fulfilled, but abolished. [9]

The Messiah as a prophet

"Generation" is, in fact, referring to the generaton that is speaking of a literal generation--NOT a figurative generation.

In his commentaries on Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30, Thayer notes, "the whole multitude of men living at the time...used especially of the Jewish race living at one time and the same time period. [10]


G. Abbot-Smith writes the Greek word genea (used here) always means "generation." [11]

What can we conclude?


"Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" does not mean a future generation. Please note the meaning of the word this generation which narowly defines which generation Jesus is talking about.

Thank you for your arguments and I look forward to your rebuttals.

Reference

[1] Last Days Ministry: The Jewish Temple Will Be Rebuilt! http://www.lastdaysmystery.info...;

[2] Hosea 3 refers to the rebuilding of the temple. This predicts that: (1) Israel will not have a king, prince, nor sacricie untill the end of days.

[3] Tobin, Paul. "Rejection of Pascal's Wager."

[4] Rashi's Commentaries.

[5] Ibid.

[6] Isaiah 53 "Who would have believed what we have heard" is the nation of the world speaking in utter astonashment of the rise and re-generation of Israel.

[7] Rashi's Commentary on Zechariah 14. http://www.chabad.org...;

[8] "Does Psalm 110:1 show that the Messiah will be greater than David and a divine being?" http://www.jewsforjudaism.org...;

[9] "The 10 Commandments Abolished!" http://www.bible.ca...;

[10] Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan Publishing House, 1979, p. 112

[11] G. Abbott-Smith, Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 2nd ed., Edinburgh: T.&T. Clarke, 1923, p. 89
NewCreature

Con


1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

"I did not shift the BoP upon you, as it is clear to anyone that Jesus did not rebuild the third temple, usher in an era of peace, gather the Jewish nation to Israel, and bring us back to Torah observance."

Pro did so by simply asserting it. Pro should already know that I completely disagree with his claim that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. Simply asserting that it is a historical fact that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies is not an argument. But I don't think BoP is an important issue so I'll just drop this and get to the real problem, that is, It seems like Pro wants to translate all the prophecies that yhe cited LITERALLY word for word, and automatically preclude the possibility that the prophecies he quoted are symbolic and nature like many of the other prophecies in the Hebrew Bible.

I think this is the issue of the debate; interpretation of the prophecies. Prophecies are often times very cryptic and symbolic. They are NEVER completely understood until its already been fulfilled. Also some prophecies are fulfilled gradually.

If Pro wants to claim that ALL prophecies are literal (which I don' think he does), then he will have problems explaining a lot of prophecies in the Hebrew Bible that were already fulfilled in the Hebrew Bible, and also other prophecies like the ones in Daniel.

Now if Pro wants to argue that the specific messianic prophecies that he cited are all literal, well then this will be our basis for each of the topic. Pro's interpretation vs the NT interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. The NT of course teaches that Jesus is indeed the prophesied messiah.


A. Build the Third Temple

Pro, again does not make an argument but simply claims that, "it is clear to anyone who reads this that it is a literal temple." Pro does not give us an exegesis of the text at all.

I am aware that some Christians believe that a physical temple will be rebuilt in the end times, this is the dispensationalist view. I hold a covenantal view of the temple. But I assure you that the dispensationalists agree with me that Jesus is indeed the messiah and the rebuilding of a physical temple will be attest to it. My current position is that there is no need for a physical temple if the third temple prophecies are metaphorical.

Pro also asserts that "it is clear" that a physical temple will be rebuilt the sacrificial system will resume and cites Hosea 3. Pro did not however give us an exegesis of the passage, and showed us why and how he came to his conclusions.

Prophecies never "clear" until it's been fulfilled. Pro seems to think that prophecies are no brainers and we always know exactly what to expect. This is not at all true. Even Abraham wondered how God would fulfill his promises to him.

Btw, Pro, you can't use a book as you source with out quoting from it. I am not gonna read a whole book to look for what you're claiming to be true.


B. Gather the Nation of Israel

" (1) Very few people accepted Jesus as Messiah. In fact, Jesus was FAR from popular. "

Because of the ministry of Jesus, people from every nation and tribe has become worshippers of the God of Israel. The word God became synonymous to the God of Israel.

"(2) The prophecy clearly refers to a literal gathering to the nation of Israel and an end of exile--not to a return to G-d. "

Can you tell us how that is "clearly" so? This is just another assertion.


C. Usher in an Era of World Peace

"Two things wrong with my partner's interpretation: (1) This is not metamorphic, and (2) The prophecy suggests that the Messiah will come, and EVERYONE will know the G-d of Israel. Moreover, when we look at Isaiah 53, it becomes clear that the prophecy is referring to the nation's astonashment at the rise of Israel. "

Pro argues against my interpretation by simply saying that the passage is not metaphoric. I'd love to debate about Isaiah 53. "Who would have believed what we have heard" This is God's people speaking of the Messiah! If you want to debate on who Isaiah 53 is speaking of (nation of Israel or Jesus) I am open to that, but right now, we are in no way in agreement of that passage's interpretation.


D. Spread Universal Knowledge of God That Will Unite Humanity as One


"
(1) There is god excuse to reject the belief in a god,"

The God of Israel is known throughout the world. His messiah's birth, death and resurrection is celebrated every year. The gospel is being preached in every corner of the earth. Jesus what we use as our dating system (B.C. and A.D.). This is not even a debate. Jesus is the one Jew that made the God of Israel the biggest, most dominant religion in history. No one else has accomplished this, and since Jesus already did, no one else can in the future.

Anyone who rejects the God of Israel is more guilty of idolatry than ever before.

"(2) The saying in Romans 14 is supposedly another far off prophecy that cannot be fulfilled., "

No, when did I say that this prophecy can not be fulfilled?

"(3) The ultimate revelation is not the resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus, rather it is the national revelation on Mount Sinai."

This is an empty assertion by Pro. If not for the work of Jesus and his Church, only the Jews will know about Mount Sinai. Because of Jesus, an asian kid knows about the stories of Noah ark, of Abraham and his son Isaac, of Moses, of David and Goliath, of Samson, etc. etc.



2. PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF THE MESSIAH

A. Son of David


1. Both Mary and Joseph are from the house of David. Pro keeps insisting that because Joseph is not Jesus' biological father, that he can't be his legal father. Joseph was Jesus' legal father. This means Joseph can legally pass down everything he is and he has to Jesus. Jesus was a son of David both by blood through Mary, and by legal adoption through Josesph.
There are other theories about the 2 genealogies of Jesus (Luke's and Matthew's) but one thing is clear, no one in Jesus' or the apostles' time argued against the claim that Jesus was from the house of David.

2. No one translates Psalm 110 as "YHWH said to YHWH" it is in fact "YHWH said to adoni" or "The LORD said to my Lord". The point here is not that the messiah is called YHWH in this verse, the point is that David calls the messiah, "adoni" or "my lord". This implies that the messiah is greater than David. And I ask pro, just as Jesus asked the Pharisees,

How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet’?”


3. Solomon's line is cursed to never again hold the throne after Jechonia's sin (Jeremiah 24). Jesus being also a descendant of Nathan ensures his right to David's throne.

B. Torah Observance

"It does not matter if Jesus fulfilled them or not. The "Old Testament" laws are STILL applicable as the Torah is eternal. Moreover, throughout the rest of the New Testament, it is apparent that the early church believed that they were more than fulfilled, but abolished. [9] "
I missed the argument here. More assertions by Pro with out any supporting arguments. Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the laws, but to fulfill them. If a prophecy is fulfilled, then it is fulfilled, and it is no longer applicable to anything. Same with laws. For example, the sacrificial laws are no longer binding since Jesus fulfilled them. Jesus is the ultimate and perfect sacrifice for sins. Animal sacrifices were types or foreshadows of the true sacrifice, and are no longer required or binding.

And again, you tried to link us to a website to support an assertion. This is not how debates work, you have to state your arguments in the debate. Plus your link does not even work.

I'm assuming Pro, dropped the his points about how the Messiah can not be God.

C. Messiah as Prophet

γενεὰ - genea

Age, generation
From (a presumed derivative of) genos; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons) -- age, generation, nation, time. [1]

[1] Strong's Greek Concordance.
Debate Round No. 3
Mr.Infidel

Pro

I would like to extend a thank you to my partner and friend, NewCreature, for an exciting and thrilling debate. Although we disagree on this topic, you have shown superb conduct throughout this debate and have stayed on topic. I look forward to debating you again. I will make this round short and sweet because it is the final round.

Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

My partner sadly dropped most of my arguments here. My partner wishes to take a metamorphic interpretation WITHOUT JUSTIFYING IT. Why should I trust your metamorphic interpretation of the prophecies when the Jewish nation understood otherwise. It would be like me quoting Matthew 22 for a failed prophecy saying that it is literal without justifying my literal interpretation.


Jesus as a prophet

My partner gives me the definition of the word "genea" which I accept. However, according to the Strong's Concordence Dictionary, the word for this is "This, these, etc." [1] which clearly show that Jesus was defining which generation Jesus was talking about.

Son of David

My partner makes an interesting claim, "Solomon's line is cursed to never again hold the throne after Jechonia's sin (Jeremiah 24). Jesus being also a descendant of Nathan ensures his right to David's throne."

The reason I find this interesting is that in both Matthew, Jechonia is listed as a member of David's geneaogy. [1] Therefore, from my partner's own admission, Jesus is not the Messiah. Moreover, Solomon had more than one son; hence we can conclude a probabiity of the Messiah to come from Solomon without coming from Jechonia.

" I'd love to debate about Isaiah 53. "Who would have believed what we have heard" This is God's people speaking of the Messiah! If you want to debate on who Isaiah 53 is speaking of (nation of Israel or Jesus) I am open to that, but right now, we are in no way in agreement of that passage's interpretation."

I would also love to debate about Isaiah 53. Sadly, my partner has mis-interpreted this. It is clear that it is NOT G-d's people speaking about the Messiah, but rather the Gentile king's of the earth astonashed at Israel's regeneration. [3]

Thank you.

Reference

[1] Strongs, James. "The Strong's Concordance Dictionary." http://www.blueletterbible.org...;

[2] Matthew 1:12

[3] See Rabbi Marshall Roth's verse-by-verse commentary: http://www.aish.com...;


NewCreature

Con

Thank you Mr. Infidel for the debate. I also want to thank you for being respectful through out the debate. I want to also thank the readers for your time.


JESUS AS A PROPHET


"My partner gives me the definition of the word "genea" which I accept. However, according to the Strong's Concordence Dictionary, the word for this is "This, these, etc." [1] which clearly show that Jesus was defining which generation Jesus was talking about."



How does the word "this" change anything? I already explained that the Christian position is that when Jesus said, "this generation", he was speaking of "this age", the age that started in his first coming and will end on his return. We are still living on the same "this age" that Jesus spoke of.





SON OF DAVID


It seems that Pro dropped his initial contention that Jesus is not a descendant of David, but is now arguing about something else.



"The reason I find this interesting is that in both Matthew, Jechonia is listed as a member of David's geneaogy."



In Luke's genealogy which traces King David's other son Nathan's line does not include Jechoniah. [1]



Jeconiah's line, which is Solomon's line, is the rightful line of heirs to the throne. But in Jeremiah (22:28-30), God cursed Jeconiah that non of his descendants will ever sit on Israel's throne because Jeconiah failed to meet God's condition in Psalm 132:12. This would mean that there could never be a rightful King from the descendants of David. This would contradict God's promise to David in 2 Samuel 7:12-13, Psalms 89:35-36, that He will establish the kingdom of David's seed forever.



Only Jesus's unique genealogy; the fact that he was the son of God, born of a virgin but is the legal son of Joseph can resolve this contradiction in the Bible. Like I said, there are many theories about Jesus' genealogies. I stumbled upon Eusebius' theory found in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Book 1 Chapter 7, which is very convincing to me. I have read this other theory that resolves the curse by mentioning Zerubbabel's (apears on both Luke and Matthew genealogies after Jechonia) role, but I can't seem to find the article at the moment.



But the bottom line is that Jesus is a seed of David both legally and by blood. And again, no one in Jesus' or the apostles' time argued against the Christian claim that Jesus was a seed of David.






PSALM 53


"I would also love to debate about Isaiah 53. Sadly, my partner has mis-interpreted this. It is clear that it is NOT G-d's people speaking about the Messiah, but rather the Gentile king's of the earth astonashed at Israel's regeneration."


Again, Pro claims that my position is wrong and that his is "clearly" right BEFORE any argument or debate. As a matter of fact, it is my opinion that anyone who reads Isaiah 53 can CLEARLY see that it is talking about Jesus. This is so clear that some people argued that Christians wrote that "prophecy" AFTER the fact. But the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls shut those critics up.



Mr. Infidel, it is not at all "clear" that your interpretation of Isaiah 53 is correct. First of all your interpretation will be VERY metaphoric and symbolic, which is funny because in all the passages that you cited in this debate, you preclude any possibility that they could be metaphorical. But it is no the fact that your interpretation is metaphoric that is the problem, I acknowledge the fact that the Bible has metaphoric passages, rather I would argue the Jewish interpretation is just internally problematic, and just does not make any sense. Let me know if you want to debate about this.





FULFILLING THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES


"My partner sadly dropped most of my arguments here. "



I firmly believe that I answered every one of Pro's contention. Anyone can see that Pro dropped most of my arguments, and the ones he didn't drop, he basically just responded with unestablished statement claims.



"My partner wishes to take a metamorphic interpretation WITHOUT JUSTIFYING IT."



I explained my interpretations. I explained the nature of prophecies and how they are often times NOT literal, but instead metaphoric and symbolic in nature, and are not fully understood until they are fulfilled. Like I mentioned, since the debate had many different topics, I did not really have the luxury of expounding too much on each topic. Pro however, did not even try to justify his arguments. He just repeatedly claimed that "it's clear" that his assertions are correct.



"Why should I trust your metamorphic interpretation of the prophecies when the Jewish nation understood otherwise. It would be like me quoting Matthew 22 for a failed prophecy saying that it is literal without justifying my literal interpretation."



This is what the debate was all about. Pro was trying to prove that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. I argued that Jesus indeed fulfilled them according to the NT authors' interpretation of the messianic prophecies. The NT authors's interpretations of the prophecies are not only very plausible, I would argue that they are the correct interpretations. Pro for the most part, basically counters with unsubstantiated assertions. Ie, "This is not metamorphic", "The prophecy clearly refers to a literal gathering to the nation of Israel", etc. Pro did not really have any arguments to back up these claims. Pro tried to persuade us by claiming that his interpretations of the prophecies are that


I think Pro tried to appeal to the interpretation of orthodox Judaism, when he put "Jewish" in italics. But here's what's wrong with that:

1. The NT authors were all Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Christianity is a Jewish religion and the NT interpretation is as Jewish as what

2. Before, during and shortly after the time of Jesus Christ, there were different schools of thought within Judaism, ie. Pharisees, Saducees, Zealots with different interpretations of scripture, particularly messianic prophecies. There was and still no universal "Jewish" understanding of the prophecies.

3. After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE Pharisaic beliefs became the basis for Rabbinic Judaism, which ultimately produced the normative traditional Judaism which is the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism except for Karaism. [2] So the "orthodox" Jewish religion that we know today is just modern day Phariseeism, which was just one of the competing traditions within Judaism.

Btw, Israel rejecting Jesus, fulfills Isaiah 8:14 that Israel will reject the messiah.
"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."


In conclusion, Pro failed to prove, and did not really attempt to establish, that his interpretation of the messianic prophecies are correct. He just made claims without any convincing arguments. Pro did not refute the NT interpretations of the messianic prophecies. I only scratched the surface on these topics, and I am up for more focused debates on any one of the subjects.Pro did not really challenge my rebuttals, except for a couple of them, so I did not really go in to much detail on them.


Pro did not prove that Jesus is not the messiah. I have responded to all of his claims and have defended the messiahship of Jesus.

Mr. Infidel, like many of Jewish people, you have a lot of misconception of what Christianity teaches. I pray and hope that you will continue to study this important matter and that the sovereign God of Israel will reveal Himself to you. The Messiah has come. Christ Jesus, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the true seed of Abraham, who became both our high priest and atoning sacrifice for sins, He is the true temple in whom the fullness of God dwells. He was the one man that fulfilled and perfectly obeyed the law, he is our rest and our righteousness. In him we have salvation and because of his work on the cross we gain the best thing God can give us, eternal life in His presence.
Debate Round No. 4
33 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by NewCreature 5 years ago
NewCreature
I'm still very interested in the Psalm 53 debate, Mr. Infidel. Just challenge me.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Thanks. If I had another round, I could quickly refute the fact that Jesus (pbuh) comes from a cursed line according to the Bible.
Posted by Rasheed 5 years ago
Rasheed
Yes, your opponent tried to use the geneologies of Jesus to prove a tie to David, but there are two contradicting geneologies, one in Matthew and the other in Luke. Both are different so neither is reliable (if I read his argument right).

He never proved to my satisfaction that your contentions were wrong because he was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information showing that Jesus (pbuh) was not the Messiah, from the Torah.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Thanks. Any criticisms of my arguments or CON'S?
Posted by Rasheed 5 years ago
Rasheed
The Messianic Hope originated with the Jewish people, and you presented characteristics that the Torah said the Messiah would have that Jesus did not meet, and you presented the prophecy that the Messiah would gather the Children of Israel in one place and usher in a new world. You provided sound sources for your arguments, and I was impressed.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Thanks. May I ask which arguments were the most convincing?
Posted by Rasheed 5 years ago
Rasheed
No problem, even though I am your opponent in another debate that you are winning, and I do believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah, you were a very convincing and thorough debater. It was a great debate, and your opponent was not a pushover, but you carried your burden of proof well. Good job!!
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Thanks Rasheed for your feedback :D
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
No problem. Want to debate Isaiah 53?
Posted by NewCreature 5 years ago
NewCreature
Thanks for the debate Mr. Infidel!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Rasheed 5 years ago
Rasheed
Mr.InfidelNewCreatureTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: As a practicing Muslim, I believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah, but pro had a very convincing argument from the Jewish text, and his sources were very sound. Good job to both debaters.