The Instigator
Somecrap
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
ironsheik7
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

Jesus is not GOD [2]

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after 6 votes the winner is...
ironsheik7
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/18/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,220 times Debate No: 40814
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (86)
Votes (6)

 

Somecrap

Pro

This is my first argument and like the most.. because i have never seen someone comes and gives me simple clear plain answer - is jesus said (hebrow/greek) " I AM GOD/ I AM GOD ALMIGHTY/AM GOD AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME etc... Jesus in his entire ministry NEVER uttered this words once, hence he fails in the first criteria. why im saying that? because god CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY declares who he is, by saying I AM GOD:

1) sa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.
2) Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
(there are 16 references in the previous debate.)

So we see God CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY declares who he is, he doesn't leave it open to question or guesswork, he plainly says it. unlike jesus never ONCE in clear plain Hebrew or Greek ever said I AM GOD, OR I AM GOD ALMIGHTY, OR I AM GOD AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME.
God says I AM GOD, Jesus never said it once.

--- God is not a MAN nor the SON OF MAN:
Numbers 23:19:
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29:
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

So the God of the Bible makes it very clear that he is not a man, nor the son of man! now what jesus said?
John 8:40:
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
So Jesus is a man, God is not a man, - Jesus is not God. moreover the Greek word used for man is called Anthropos, and this is from where we get the word anthropology which is basically the study of humanity!

Secondly, the word Anthropos in the Greek language is used to distinguish man from God! So Jesus used a word to describe himself which clearly separates and distinguishes him from God! To sum it up when one is called Anthropos it means he isn't God, but a man/human like all others, separate from the divine creator.

---God's nature DOESN'T CHANGE, it is FOREVER THE SAME:
Malachi 3:6:
For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT. So the God of the Bible's nature does not change.

--- God attributes:
-Gods main attributes is that he is ALL-KNOWING, yet when we read the Gospels we find that Jesus displayed ignorance on 2 separate occasions:

1) Matthew 24:36:
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
2) Mark chapter 11 verses 12-13:
And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
So as you can clearly see, Jesus is not all knowing.

-God is all-powerful,but according to bible jesus was not powerful at all. Jesus fled from King Herod as the Gospel of Matthew chapter 2 tells us. Imagine this, the all powerful God fleeing from a tyrant king who wants to kill him?!

--- In the Gospels God GAVE Jesus all power and authority:
-Jhon 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
- John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
- Jhon 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
- Jhon 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
- God is perfect:
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God:

So here we see that Jesus denied that he was good in the absolute sense of good, which is perfect, perfect like God and saying "why call me good!".

--- Who Jesus declared himself to be:
He was a prophet (Matthew 13:57)
He was the Messiah (Matthew 16:20)
This is what Jesus explicitly and clearly said about himself, he was a prophet, the messiah, and not one of these terms denotes divinity or making one God.

So did Jesus want the people to believe that he was God? The answer is NO, he wanted the people to believe that he was SENT from God, two different, as Jesus himself said in many places:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)

Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? (John 16:30-31).

---Did the people believe that Jesus was God? Matthew Chapter 16 13-14:
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

jesus asks the disciples what the people were saying about him, and note, none of them were saying he was GOD, rather they were saying he was some prophet.
VERSE 15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ. - disciples believed that Jesus was the Christ, they did not say we believe that you are God, or the divine son of God. It would have been very easy for them to have said we believe that you Jesus is God himself, the divine son of God! Yet no such statement was made.
John the Baptist said - Behold the Lamb of God (John 1:26) did he say Divine Son of God or God?No. another witness - this is the Son of God. (John 1:34) The term son of God to the Israelites did not denote divinity or made one God, it simply meant a righteous man of God, a prophet, or the Messiah.
"Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. (John 4:19)" - The lady believes that Jesus is a prophet; she does not say that I perceive you to be God, or the divine son of God.
Did the believers debate whether Jesus was simply a prophet, and the messiah? Or was he more than that and God himself?.
the earliest believers of Jesus, in the Gospel of John, debated amongst each other on whether Jesus was the prophet of 18:18 or if he was the Messiah! How interesting is that? That 2000 years ago in Palestine while Jesus was there in his ministry, the people were not debating as we are today, if Jesus is prophet or God, nay, rather they were debating whether he was a Prophet or Messiah!.
"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the -Prophet. Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?" (John 7:40-41)

---Jesus has a God John 20:15-18:
5 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

here a man is claiming he has a God, which is the same God as your God, would you actually then believe that this man is also God? Of course not! The fact that Jesus declares that he has a God is not surprising at all, because he is a man, a prophet, so off course he has a God, yet when people claim that Jesus IS God then this sounds very strange doesn't it? God saying I have a God? I don't think so people, let us use our common sense and rationality, a man is saying he has a God, do you really believe that he is God?

here my points :
-Jesus fails the attributes of God
-Jesus identified himself with terms such as prophet and Messiah
-The eyewitness believers did not believe that Jesus was God
-Jesus has a God!
Put all of that together and consistently you will arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is not God and believe me every time im reading his sayings.

Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus as God. In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops":

"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'".

But what is a messenger of God? Is he not "God's supreme agent"?.
John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Bart D. Ehrman book - Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (havent read yet...) http://www.amazon.com...

the previous debate:
http://www.debate.org...
ironsheik7

Con

My reply was way more than 10,000 characters, so I have to shorten it way down, which means I have to delete half of what I was replying to of yours. I will mainly be replying to most of your points but i don't have enough characters left to bracket your comments and reply directly to them as I wanted to.

The son never said he was God because God is the spirit inside the sons body. This is why Christ himself said John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

There is actually a book on amazon from a jewish scholar that talks about the trinity coming from Babylonian orgins and that it was common for there to be a God and his 2 deputy Gods. So we both can agree that the trinity is complete garbage. Anyone who says there is only one God but in three persons is only kidding themself by trying to turn the number three into one.

continuing this same same God became a man the bible says

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now did God number 2 in a plurality of deities become human ? No, the one and only God there was became a human being incarnate as the son.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Now we have a problem for most Christians because according to matt 1:18 the father isn't the father of the son, but according to matthew 1:18 Mary was found with child of the holy ghost. But it isn't a problem for those who understand this becausewe know who the holy ghost is and he is the father.

One example of this is Philip

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus continues by saying the father is inside of him

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus says the works or miracles that he does in 14:10 is because of the father. Jesus says the father dwells in me he does the works.

This is why the son never came right out and said hey everybody I am God almighty, though he did throw hints. So why didn't Jesus say I am God ? Because he isn't, he is a human being but God dwells in his body so that makes him God. Though Jesus did not want to be called God because he believed it was disrespectful to the creator the father inside of him. That is why he told philip who was inside of him God the father. Let's get on to numbers and samuel now

God is not a man he says neither the son of man, that he should repent. But look at what he says next in the text " has he said and shall he not do it ? has he spoken and shall he not make good ?
He's telling the Israelites no I'm not a human man, nope not the son of man either, But I shall do it and make good. So he says he is neither he says in the verse he shall become both.

1 samuel 15:28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Those are samuels words he was saying God doesn't lie or repent like a man/human being does. This actually wasn't God giving a speech about the nature of himself or humanity here as in numbers 23:19

Malachi 1:3 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts

Go ask the gentiles what his name is and they will tell you. Every baptist and pentecostal and methodist church full of gentiles screams his name every sunday. Jesus Christ.

It should also be noted that Jesus Christ is actually the fathers name.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus says he came in his fathers name. Also the bible says the son inherited his name.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

by connecting John 5:43 with Hebrews 1:4 we can see how he inherited his name, from his father whose name is Jesus Christ.

Jacob wrestled with an angel that would not reveal His name. The parents of Samson were visited by an angel who would not reveal His name. We now know this name revealed in the new testament as Jesus Christ

Moses asked for his name. He did give moses a title but not a name.

Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

He said I am that I am

Connect with

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of

The Jews picked up stones to stone jesus, but why ? Because he claimed he was the I am of the old testament the same I am that spoke with moses in Exodus 3:14

Next we have your attributes which is to many words to fit in so I'll bracket a small one to show I'm referring to it

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Hmm seems one could raise the same argument from Genesis 3:8 since God didn't know where Adam was. If he is God why didn't he know where Adam was ? Isn't he omnipresent ?

Now to your question. But first we should ask you, do you as a human being get Hungry ? thirsty ? sleepy ? But why do you do those things somecrap ? because humans have limitations we get hungry and sleepy to recharge ourselves.

Same with the son, because God is in a human body that had limitations. We know that the son ate food, and even slept Matthew 4:38. If God became a man and didn't have mans weaknesses such as hunger and tiredness then he wouldn't be a man would he now ?

Matthew 24:36: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

As stated above being a human has limitations the bible salso speaks of Jesus not being glofied yet

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He was glorfied after he had risen. And now those limitations I believe are nor more, for just as he has a glorified body, so will all that believe on him have a glorified body according to the bible.

What Good would it do God for Herod to catch them and kill his earthly body ? he had plans for the cross to die for the sins of mankind, which was more important than having a show down with Herod for bragging rights. God is not prideful, we have pride, you have pride, just as you stated in this comment you wanted God not to flee but to stand and fight ! God has prophecy to fufil

So jesus was a bad man ? If he is not good then that makes him bad ? And if he is bad then that makes him a sinner. Unless you're stating that sinning makes us Good ? So did the son sin ?

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

hebrews 4:15 said he was without sin so if the son is without sin and said their is only one god and that he is good, then that makes Jesus good which in turn makes him God.

John 17:3 exactly he wanted people to worship the only true God which is the father, the father is the God inside of Christs body.

Here is another scripture of Jesus claiming to be the father as the jews picked up stones to stone him

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

We also read that the son will be called the mighty god and the father in Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Debate Round No. 1
Somecrap

Pro

Dude really im suprised man u blown up my head off. There is no sect in christianity (atleast by my research) that says jesus is the father! the whole christendom deserting you here... there are individuals but not as a group. and do you know if you say jesus is the father at any church it is a HERESY! the chatolic church got rid of it over a 1000 years ago.. so your all arguments here are failing apart even before we began, but for the sake of argument i agree with you...

"When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven." (Luke 11:2) - so jesus is saying not to me pray to the FATHER ART IN HEAVEN. so all your argument are useless.. anyway lets start:

- "The son never said he was God because God is the spirit inside the sons body" - this is not answering the question and its your theology without proof. its like "im drinking water because i love this girl" dude there is no connection between the first part and the second part. and he come to earth and lives here 33 years without saying "im god or worship me" you know whats 33 years meaing? (1 day = 24 hours) x (365) x (33) = 289080 hours. so he raoming 289080 hours this world want to preach that he is god but he never says that... GOD doesnt play hide and seek he gave you brain to use it so use it and dont be foolish. God in old testment is declaring many times he is THE ONLY GOD BECAUSE HE IS A GOD. JESUS NEVER CLAIMED BECAUSE HE ISNT commen sense unless your mind is diseased.

- "John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
you reading this in your mother tongue and understand the opposite. " that they (the people) might know thee
(GOD. thee equals "im" its another person!) the ONLY TRUE GOD (NOT JESUS!), AND (FORTHERMORE/makes a distinction) JESUS CHRIST (NOT GOD/CHRIST!) whom thou hast sent.( sent by GOD NOT on his OWN (JEUSUS) ).

"Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" if jesus was god he would say -"IM THE LORD YOUR GOD AND IM ONE LORD". OUR means jesus and the people how the heck jesus has a GOD when he says "OUR" ?!? i think you learned GIBRISH instead of ENGLISH in school.

Now John add some verses to his Gospel that are not in the other 3 Gospels like jesus is divine to suit himself - jesus says "IM" ,"i and my father are one" etc... im not saying that its SCHOLARSHIP point of view.. for sake of argument im not taking this views... lets examine one by one... (and i answered already some of this points in my previous debate im not going to waste my time for this i give short answers...http://www.debate.org...)

"John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -
go to my previous debate round 2: http://www.debate.org...
secondly, im wasted my time writing about juhn 1:1 because jesus didnt say it, john said that...

-"john 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth." same answer above the Greek word "LOGOS".

-"Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." first of all you take the word "FATHER" literally.. it is not jesus says (over a dozen and more) "your father" (taking to people) until he says my father. it is metaforical or you are saying that the jews also gods because god is father of them too. secondly there is no verse in all versions of the bibles on that says Holy ghost is the Father, its your imagination...

for saving scape to write here videos to answer your questions its more better and clear...
"i and my father are one" - https://www.youtube.com...

jhon 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works." - you are worng. jesus saying "father is in me"
because - "I do not speak on my own authority" - its god AUTHORITY! meaning the AUTHORITY AND GODS POWER. from where i come to this ?
In the Gospels God GAVE Jesus all power and authority:
-Jhon 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
- John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
- Jhon 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
- Jhon 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

-YOU SIMPLE DIDNT READ THE INFO I GAVE YOU ABOVE IN ROUND 1.- after this verses come jhon 14:10 so obviously you are worng again.

-"He's telling the Israelites no I'm not a human man, nope not the son of man either, But I shall do it and make good. So he says he is neither he says in the verse he shall become both." - false interpitation and your claim is worng IF U READ ROUND 1 ABOVE U WILL GET DE ANSWER!
Who Jesus declared himself to be:
He was a prophet (Matthew 13:57)
He was the Messiah (Matthew 16:20)
This is what Jesus explicitly and clearly said about himself, he was a prophet, the messiah, and not one of these terms denotes divinity or making one God.

"Those are samuels words he was saying God doesn't lie or repent like a man/human being does. This actually wasn't God giving a speech about the nature of himself or humanity here as in numbers 23:19" - so you admitting there are contradiction in numbers,,, anyway here another verse that contradicts it:
Ezekiel 24:14
I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent.

-"Malachi 1:3 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts" - here how jews respond to this its too long its cnot fit here in this small place here the link - http://biblelight.net... ... believe me jew all denying your prophecies in any sort of way you want to come. in short:-
", recent Catholic scholarship concludes that the Catholic Mass is not prophetically indicated in Mal 1:11, because a future tense is simply not supported by the Hebrew text, rather it is clearly an unwarranted imposition."

"It should also be noted that Jesus Christ is actually the fathers name." it is not its your invention.
"John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name" - whats the problem??? i dont understand jesus come in this fathers name meaning he is coming in his father with his religion, his way, his permission etc.. even every muslim says "in the name of allah the most merciful the most beneficent" before we doing anything so we claiming that we are all FATHERS?

"by connecting John 5:43 with Hebrews 1:4 we can see how he inherited his name, from his father whose name is Jesus Christ." - his name not jesus christ, jesus distinct person from the father. unless you got verse that says jesus is the father.

For the "IM" thing.. i have now small space remaining so watch this... and i answered this in my first debate!
https://www.youtube.com...

" Genesis 3:8 since God didn't know where Adam was. If he is God why didn't he know where Adam was ? Isn't he omnipresent ?" - its a contradiction or GOD ALMIGHTY playing hide and seek.

"Matthew 24:36: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" - explicitly its says "nor the son" meaning he isnt like god in knowlege.

"ohn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." - 1- clearly father and jesus is distinct persons! jesus prays to god! does god pray to himself? " I had with thee before the world was" its speaking in the knowlenge of GOD see the video "im" answering the same question.

"What Good would it do God for Herod to catch them and kill his earthly body ? he had plans for the cross to die for the sins of mankind, which was more important than having a show down with Herod for bragging rights" - harry poter tales are sounding more realiable and make more sense.. dude are you serious when you answering? god is a child runing from king to NOT TO BE KILLED CUZ HE GOT PLANS please...

"So jesus was a bad man ?" - he is not good in sense that GOD IS GOOD THAT CALLED HUMBLENESS!!!
" God inside of Christs body" - you make your own THOLEGY AND thumb sucking it all the way.

Isaiah 9:6 - jews responding:
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org...

-- in the first debate 80% of your points is answered in previous debate. secondly all the verses you wrote here (sayings of jesus) if you had even a poor english you would answer it all. you reading and understaning somthing else. thirdly you made a thoelgy that jesus is the father and even christains wont agree, and for 4th you didnt address my points as the whole :
-Jesus fails the attributes of God
-Jesus identified himself with terms such as prophet and Messiah
-The eyewitness believers did not believe that Jesus was God
-Jesus has a God!

--IF YOU HAVE SIMPLE UNDERSTANDING OF ENGLISH YOU WILL ARIVE TO CONCLUSION THAT JESUS IS A PROPHET NOT GOD UNLSS PEOPLE GET BRAINWASHED TOO HARD--

Quran 21:18
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.
ironsheik7

Con

The first word the Hebrew fathers used in establishing a relationship, and coming into an awareness of the True God, "HE," was revealed by the tetragrammaton four-letter consonants Y-H-W-H, a word without vowel structure and unpronounceable. After adding the vowel structure, they came up with the word Yahweh, which translates God: Self-existing, Eternal One (Supreme Being). Later his name was revealed in the Book of Exodus as Jehovah. Research teaches that God has many titles or title-names, such as Almighty, El-Shadia, God Almighty, Elohim, and other title names. However, He only has one revealed name, that being Jehovah.

Lord also is a title name used often in the New Testament in identification with Jesus. It always means Jehovah. Whether found in the Old Testament or in the New Testament, Lord, with the first letter capital, always is the reference to Deity (God). The question is not whether Jesus is God. The Bible is plain: He (Jesus) is Lord of all, and the Bible also is very plain, the Lord is the True God (Jeremiah 10:10)

Let us further examine the word Lord. It comes from the Hebrew word Adonai, which in the Hebrew means Jehovah (Yahweh). It was inserted by the early fathers of Judaism in the place of the sacred name Yahweh, which was held in such high esteem that it could not be spoken; thus, the inserted word Lord was used in its place. In Acts 2:36, the apostle Peter in his sermon to the Jews gives further revelation concerning the Godhead mystery.

Note vs. 36: "That same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, God has made both Lord and Christ." Connect this Scripture with the apostle Paul"s teachings in 1 Tim. 3:16: "Without controversy, great is the mystery, God was manifest in the flesh." We see that Paul refers to the incarnation, God transcending himself as the Messiah. Note the apostle Johns revelation in the first chapter of his gospel, vs. 14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." The Word, according to vs. 1: ". . . Was with God, and the Word was God."

So, by connecting these four Scriptures, we see the clear revelation, that God became incarnate as the Son, and realizing that, the Scriptures also maintained that there is only one God; then we establish a solid foundation to a Bible fact-that Jesus is the only true and living God, and beside him there is none else.

The mystery of the Godhead is complex, because man uses natural logic to equate that which can only be interpreted by spiritual revelation. Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: For they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned." Trying to understand how Jesus was the Father, yet manifesting himself as the Son, will always remain as the Bible teaches, a great mystery, that comes only by divine revelation to the seeker of truth.

All the Bible is about the Hebrew God, Jehovah, who came to the new covenant people as the Lord Jesus Christ. Note 1 John 5:20: "We know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life". If we keep the basic Bible foundation concerning the Godhead-that there is only one True God, again it is evidently clear, Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, who came as the Son to teach His chosen, the principles of the true faith-a Savior to all man kind who would believe.

I think we should now examine why my opponent is against Jesus being God. My opponent's standpoint is from Islam. This is why he is against the bible, and states that verses versus are lies. Because Muslims say the Jews corrupted the text, though they have no evidence of this.

I believe Satan made a counterfeit religion called Islam. Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Christ bruised Satan's head at the cross, and the wound/ bruise was healed revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

I believe the wound was healed when Satan made a counterfeit religion called Islam, taking salvation away from 1 billion people. Of interesting note is there is evidence that the abomination of desolation is the dome of the rock, and that the false prophet spoke of in revelation, was none other than the prophet Muhammad. Not to mention the beheadings in Islam fit with

revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus

All one has to do is go into google and type Islam beheading to pull up page after page after page of Muslims beheading. In fact the Quran instructs beheading

Quran 8:12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

here is a link to a site that stands firm against the Islamic beast and a link to the dome of the rock being the abomination of desolation.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com...

Here is now a video on the Islamic badge of servitude

This is the head band muslims wear in their forehead.

http://bigfaithministries.com...

In the greek the word for mark is charagma which has 4 meanings 1. etching 2. sculpture 3. badge of servitude 4. mark

It's interesting that Muslims have a badge of servitude which is the head band they ware with the name of Allah on it, and one of the meanings for charagma is badge of servitude.

For those that have not read the book "from Babylon to Timbuktu history of ancient black races" it states that Muhammad was a camel driver who wanted Jews to make him a prophet of Judaism, they refused, so he went to the Christians and they refused. Muhammad became angry and swore revenge against Judaism and Christianity

https://archive.org...

Next we have Muhammad claiming he was chocked in a cave by an angel of light that identified himself as the angel Gabriel. This angel then gave Muhammad a revelation and from there Muhammad started Islam.

Interesting that the apostle paul warned us about this before it ever happened

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

What's also interesting is what the bible calls antichrist. Islam likes to insert "The" in front of antichrist to describe a made up factitious one eyed boogie man called the dajjal.

Yet the bible doesn't speak of a man antichrist it speaks of many antichrist

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Many antichrists. But who are these antichrist ?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Does Islam denieth that Jesus is the son Yes ! They say Isa the name they use for Jesus is a mere prophet.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Next they deny the cucifixtion

Quran 4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.

So as we can see Islam has an agenda, and it fits the biblical antichrist religion of the last days.

We know that Islam denies the majority of doctrine in the bible my opponent being a Muslim denies Jesus is god, deneis he is the the son of god, denies the crucifiction, thinks the Jews perverted the bible. And Muslims believe Muhammad is the comforter of John 14:26.

But what does the bible say ? We've heard plenty from Muhammad book of middle eastern fairy tales called the Quran today. Now let us read some truth from the real God's book.

In Zechariah 12:10 the LORD God is speaking and says that, "they will look on Me whom they have pierced."[4] This is obviously Jesus speaking (Psalm 22:16; John 19:34). This passage from Zechariah appears again in Revelation 1:7b and is clearly about Jesus Christ.

In Joel 2:32 it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD will be saved. This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13. Both apostles are clearly referring to Jesus as the LORD.

Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD. When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we readily see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24

Of course all my opponent can come up with is that the bible lied, the same old Jews changed the text argument !
Debate Round No. 2
Somecrap

Pro

All your arguments is from ignorent and the video is a bullpoop ...and you dont know anything about islam and muslims you just brainwashed. if you want to learn islam go to both sides - muslims and critics, then conclude, and dont learn from foxnews and bbc its propaganda tool feeding people about what they want to here. so dont be a kid and be a man.
lets start:
i learned in jewish school (in isreal you must learn tanakh {old testment and some stuff} for matriculation) and for most of the time i ran away from Tanakh classes. Anyway you know why the jehova witnesses dont say "fourletters" instead of "tetragrammaton" ? because in english what is the most famous word with 4 letters? i guess you know it...if you cnot guess ask in the next round... so they spell it in Greek.

"Later his name was revealed in the Book of Exodus as Jehovah" - it must be yahovah not Jehovah (yahowa). christains changed all the names of the prophets and god, because its sounds more "European" and not african/asian names which considered more inferior. for example:
Jesus - yesho
Joseph - yusef
John - yohanan
Christ - messiah (they translated it to Greek)
peter - Shimon Bar Jonah etc...

"Lord also is a title name used often in the New Testament in identification with Jesus" - Give verses, you writing somthing without evidence, i dont know if you talking about the disciple doubting Thomas.. give proof.

"Whether found in the Old Testament or in the New Testament, Lord, with the first letter capital," in Hebrow/Greek there is no small or capital letters.
"the Lord is the True God (Jeremiah 10:10)" - This talking about God (the FATHER) the only god not JESUS, from jesus we have - " O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" talking about his God not himself, if you dont understand the word "our" its your problem learn english. and its not Jeremiah its yarmiaho.
"Bible also is very plain, the Lord" its NOT. jesus never said im GOD/YAHOWA in any versions of the bible on earth.

" It was inserted by the early fathers of Judaism in the place of the sacred name Yahweh, which was held in such high esteem that it could not be spoken; thus, the inserted word Lord was used in its place. In Acts 2:36, the apostle Peter in his sermon to the Jews gives further revelation concerning the Godhead mystery." first of all you are talking about atcs written many years after jesus we dont know the exact date (60-114),secondly jesus doesnt speaking here its other people, i want proof from jesus what i have do to with all your argument give saying of jesus.

REALLY I DONT NEED TO RESPOND TO ALL OF THIS GIVE STATEMENTS OF JESUS.
- I DONT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH PAUL - HE MADE NEW RELIGION THAT JESUS NEVER TAUGHT. look paul is not your "GOD" jesus is so give proof from jesus himself. you can give statements all over the bible that says jesus is god, its people writting their OWN invention and thoelgy.

u said "John 5:20: "We know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ" AGAIN im going to explain that "SON OF GOD" DOESNT MEAN GOD. in the bible GOD has sons by the TONS:
Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men... Genesis 6:2-4
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. John 1:12 - "Christians are Gods sons".
the list driving on...
here good video - https://www.youtube.com... by ahmed deedat. Dude please watch the whole debate see both speakers and then decide.

"I think we should now examine why my opponent is against Jesus being God. My opponent's standpoint is from Islam. " - first of all it doesnt matter what is my standpoint, im proving from your bible that jesus isnt god and im not using any verses in the Quran because its not rational to convince you about somthing you consider as a garbage. you are accusing me with false idea. throw my islam and MY believes its not helping you.

"This is why he is against the bible, and states that verses versus are lies. Because Muslims say the Jews corrupted the text, though they have no evidence of this." - your problem is you programed to respond to people who think oppsite of you as a liars and that called brainwash. and leave muslims. your SCHOLARS AGREEING THAT BIBLE IS CORRUPTED AND WRITTEN BY 40 DIFFEREND AUTHORS AT DIFFEREND TIMES. are you joking me "no evidence of this" ? because you are swimming only what the brainwashed christians say. do you know what is the oldest surviving bible? ofcourse you dont know you just simmering in your soup, thorwing at me crap words without understanding and hatred. the oldest manuscript Papyrus P52, a piece of the Gospel of John dated to the first half of the 2nd century, and the others dating to late 2nd century or 3rd century. that is a FACT.

----- You see guys now he coming to islam, prophet mohhamed S.A.W, like a little kid who got hurt emotionally,actions speak louder than words. all you wrote there are LIE without understanding, twisting information, without evidence you are just brainwashed too hard. im not going to respond to your dung here IT SHOULD be in the toliet.

If you want to debate act like a normal person. and im sorry if i hurt u its not my intention... but you are stupid really.

here my points you didnt teach them even one:
-Jesus fails the attributes of God
-Jesus identified himself with terms such as prophet and Messiah
-The eyewitness believers did not believe that Jesus was God
-Jesus has a God!

Quran 2:136
Say, `We believe in All"h and in that (the Qur'"n) which has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham, Ism""l, Isaac, Jacob and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and (we believe) in what was given to (all other) Prophets from their Lord. We (while believing in them) make no discrimination between anyone of them, and to Him do we submit ourselves entirely.'

----PLEASE DO NOT QOUTE FROM THE QURAN VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT AND GIVE US HALF VERSE.---

-IF YOU WILL KEEP WRITING ON ANOTHER SUBJECT THE BEBATE IS OVER.-

Quran 21:18
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.
ironsheik7

Con

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Now you've made it very clear that you don't believe John 1. And the Word was made flesh. In fact below are your own words
[[["John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -go to my previous debate round 2 ...secondly, im wasted my time writing about juhn 1:1 because jesus didnt say it, john said that...]]]]

But what does the bible say about those that deny Jesus came in the flesh

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Again we arrive at Islam being the antichrist because you deny John 1:1 and 1:14

Now before you try to worm your way out of this by saying we do believe in jesus peace be upon him. No, you believe in a jesus, but not the Jesus of the bible.

the bible warns of another gospel and another jesus.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The Jesus you're preaching is not the Jesus that the apostles preached. Because Paul preached Jesus was God. Thomas another apostle called Jesus God John 20:28 , and of course the apostle John who wrote the book of John said he was God in the flesh which you deny that makes you antichrist according to
2 John 1:7.

The apostles knew what was coming in the last days and warned us about it.

The Quran prescribes death for those that fall away from Islam - for "apostasy".
http://www.answering-islam.org...

Indeed the greatest and only unpardonable sin in Islam (shirk) is committed if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God. A religion whose very basis absolutely requires denial that Jesus even died on the cross:

Quran 4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.

Imagine that the same religion that forces its followers to blow themselves up for Allah being martyers , also commands death to those who leave Islam.

we have atheist richard dawkins who talks to a muslim who admits apostasy in islam will result in death. I'm sure the video will pop up top or somewhere in my reply.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The word pale comes from the Greek word Chloros which means

http://studybible.info...

Strong's says greenish-yellow

Thayers Greek lexicon says
1) green
2) yellowish pale

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament lists

Green
Pale

chloros is where we get the word chlorophyll from. A quick google search shows chlorophyll pulls up the color green.

https://www.google.com...

So what does Green have to do with anything ?
because Green is the color of the horse, whatever this Green horse is we know that Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I will now submit that this horse of revelation represents Islam. Islam's national color is Green.

Green (Arabic: أخضر) is considered the traditional color of Islam. The Arabic word for "greenness" is mentioned several times in the Quran, describing the state of the inhabitants of paradise. Examples include:

Reclining on green Cushions and rich Carpets of beauty
" Sura 55, verse 76[1].

Upon them will be green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Water Pure and Holy.
" Sura 76, verse 21[2][3].

Al-Khidr ("The Green One") is a Qur"anic figure who met and traveled with Moses.[4]

The Green Dome, traditional site of the tomb of Muhammad, was painted green on the order of sultan Abdul Hamid II

Not to mention all the green mosques all over the world, and islams Green Quran

Did I just pull the Green card out of my own hat ? No, plenty of people have known for yrs that the Green horse of revelation was islam. In fact here is a link to a book about it

http://www.amazon.com...

here is an interesting broadcast on a tv a green spirit horse is seen in Egypt.

One technique you've applied is to run to Islams biggest enemy the Jews to help you validate Jesus is not God.

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

http://www.searchtruth.com...

As far as jews and the jewish blindness set on their eyes hiding who the messiah is.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

As we can easily see the satanic agenda of my partner and his friend on comments trying to convert me

here is a video by a friend of mine brother pete waldo discussing Deedat

Some links of the religion of peace, a Muslim cutting a mans head off

Muslims behead 9 yr old boy

http://www.barenakedislam.com...

Muslims gang rape 12 yr old

http://frontpagemag.com...

Islam also wants us to ignore the fact they rape children, pedophile muhammad had sex with his child bride 9 yr old aisha

yet my opponent maintains that God is a carnal God who directed Muhammad to setup a religion of beheading, terrorism and child rape. Why should we trust someone like this who says his God is the real God ? And his only evidence is to throw links of Muslim debates at me trying to convert me to his religion of a perverted pedophile Muhammad.

Women are treated like farmland in Islam.

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Not to mention how the book of Daniel penned Muhammad

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

This God of forces was one of the 320 Idols in which Muhammad picked from the Kaaba

My opponent has yet to offer any evidence that Jesus is not God, he says my evidence which is the bible is incorrect because of the Jews, he wants us to use his source the Quran wich is nothing more than rip offs of bible stories and prophets changed to suit the desire of Muhammad.
Debate Round No. 3
Somecrap

Pro

U see in every wrestling match, when the opponent knocked out, he is trying to get up for a second chance throwing at u crap hhhhh
ironsheik7

Con

Seems my opponent can't come up with nothing for this round other than stating

[[U see in every wrestling match, when the opponent knocked out, he is trying to get up for a second chance throwing at u crap hhhhh]]]

He claims I'm knocked out, yet I'm the one still debating as he sits overwhelmed and worn out on the sidelines unable to come against me anymore. He had planned to play the old Game of you state Jesus is God and I attack it for 5 rounds like all the Muslim debaters do. But when he figured out I studied Islam and have read the quran and know about his religion he was done for like a turkey dinner.

Now let's continue

In one of his first posts he said the following [[[There is no sect in christianity (atleast by my research) that says jesus is the father! the whole christendom deserting you here... there are individuals but not as a group. and do you know if you say jesus is the father at any church it is a HERESY! the chatolic church got rid of it over a 1000 years ago]]]

There is a sect with 2,000,000 members that believes Jesus is the father. http://en.wikipedia.org...

It's interesting that he stated that the Catholic church got rid of it over a 1,000 yrs ago. Which goes along with what I've been saying the catholic church brought in the trinity, but before that , the first century Christians practiced oneness.

Also it should be noted that Christians manuscripts predate Islam, wouldn't it make sense to with the oldest manuscripts, instead of going with Muhammad who had o eye witnesses to an angel in a cave giving him a revelation in which a book was later penned called the Quran ? What if Muhammad lied ?

Lets address somecrap's main points he keeps making

[[[here my points you didnt teach them even one:
1-Jesus fails the attributes of God
2-Jesus identified himself with terms such as prophet and Messiah
3-The eyewitness believers did not believe that Jesus was God
4-Jesus has a God!]]]]]

1. Jesus passes all the attibutes of God as the link below proves

http://www.blueletterbible.org...

2- The dictionary defines messiah as saviour

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

Muslims say Jesus is the messiah, but that he is not saviour, which shows they contradict the very meaning of messiah

God himself in the oldtestament stated he was the saviour

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

So as we can see the LORD is the messiah

3. The eye witnesses knew jesus was God, yet Muhammad had no eye witnesses when he saw an angel in a cave that he says was gabriel, amazing isn't it Christianity needs eye witnesses, but when we give eye witnesses he says the text lies. yet Muhammad doesn't need any eye witnesses.

Paul identified people who saw the resurrected Christ during the 40 days before His ascension. Even Jesus" enemies and disbelieving friends were eyewitnesses.

http://lifehopeandtruth.com...

The crucifixion of the Messiah was witnessed by many:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

4. Colossians 1:14 (NLT) God has purchased our freedom with his blood and has forgiven all our sins.

Acts 20:28 "Feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."

Throughout the entire content of inspired Scripture the fact of Christ"s identity is clearly taught. He is revealed as Jehovah God in human form (Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; Isaiah 7:14; John 1:14; 8:58; 17:5 [cf. Exodus 3:14]; Hebrews 1:3; Philippians 2:11; Colossians 2:9; and Revelation 1:8, 17"18; etc.).

Yet Muhammad came along six centuries after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, parroting a doctrine created by Simon "magnus" the Magician from Samaria, a Gnostic who claimed that it only appeared that Jesus died on the cross. The doctrine of the cult that followed this magician is called "Simonianism". Muhammad received the doctrine through Waraqa, the Ebionite occult priest and cousin of Muhammad's first wife Khadijah. Through this heresy Muhammad claimed that all of the witnesses of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ somehow didn't actually see what they witnessed:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Muslims are taught that if they confess that Jesus is the Son of God they will have committed the most egregious and only unpardonable sin in Islam (shirk).

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

In Saudi Arabia if you miss showing up for prayers (salat) the religious police are sent to your house to find out why. Indeed, an edict was passed in Mogadishu Somalia to behead everyone who doesn't pray 5 times a day.

From the time Muhammad plundered his first caravan, Islam was financed with property stolen from others. Along with pillage and plunder, even poets were killed for critical writing, at Muhammad's behest. Fatwas are put out on folks that speak against Islam today, because Islam cannot stand the light of the truth. That's why bibles and Christian materials are banned in Muslim countries. Muslims are encouraged to sexually violate and enslave women that are taken as spoils of war. Muhammad was allowed by Allah all the wives he wanted, but only for him. Muhammad was given a special "revelation" that had the effect of allowing him to marry his step-son's wife. Muhammad inspired bloody imperialistic conquest through the Islamic first Jihad conquest all the way up to France and Austria. The Islamic Second Jihad has engaged in over 15,000 deadly terror attacks just since 9-11.

Jesus healed the lame so they could walk.
Muhammad brought lameness to the walking. "...they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off."

Jesus brought sight to the blind.
Muhammad brought blindness to the seeing. "...he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes..."
Jesus brought the dead back to life.
Muhammad killed the living.

Even Muhammad's heaven is the opposite.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Muhammad's Aljana (From Islam Reviewed, a book filled with opposites from a Nigerian former Muslim perspective.).

"Rivers of wine of many varieties (Sura 47:15; 76:6)
- There is the promise of pure sealed wine (Sura 83:25)
- Zanjabil enhanced wine (Sura 76:17)
- Tasnim brand of wine (Sura 83:27)
- Wine mixed with kafur (Sura 76:5)

Then:
- Gushing water (Sura 3:15, 198, 4:57, 15:48).
- Clustered plantains (Sura 56:29)
- Fruits (Sura 56:20, 69:21-24).
- Shades with bunches of fruits (Sura 76:14).
- Enclosed gardens and grape vines (Sura 78:32).
- Fowl meat is one more carrot that Allah dangles before the noses of the Muslim faithful. (Sura 56:21)."
And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire.
A chicken in every pot!
Debate Round No. 4
Somecrap

Pro

Quran 25:63
When the ignorant people behave insolently towards them, they say, "Peace to you".
PEACE TO YOU! :D
ironsheik7

Con

http://www.islamweb.net...

Frogs are holy in Islam, their croak gives glory to Allah

Revelation 16;13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Interesting that John chose frogs as a symbol for unclean spirits, know doubt using the holy animal of Islam so Christians could identify the end time Islamic beast

Daniel 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings. we know this to be Babylon

Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear. we know this to be Medo Persia

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard. we know this to be. Greece

It's interesting what these nations are now called. We know that the remains of Babylon is in Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In fact of interest is the ishtar gate which has a lion on it

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Medo persia we now know as Iran and greece is now called Syria

http://www.christianeschatology.com...

What we have here is a middle eastern Islamic Beast. the same three countries America always has trouble with, with the decade long war in Iraq, former Iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad threatening to blow away American and Israel.

And the trouble with Syria and the Muslim brotherhood.

we also have an interesting video of a Muslim leader Anjem Choudary who says Islam is not a religion of peace

Anjem Choudary is a British former solicitor and also, before it was proscribed, spokesman for the Islamist group Islam4UK

I'll put some videos on Muslim honor killings. Muslims killing their own daughters in the name of Allah. Not to mention the video of scared young girl Rifqa Bary terrified who an away from home because her father wanted to kill her. thank God I live in America where terrorists are not freely allowed to run away cutting peoples heads off in the name of Muhammad's moon God

Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."""
Matt. 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."
Matt. 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."
Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God"s Son!"
Matt. 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."
John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."
Heb. 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Debate Round No. 5
86 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
One funny thing about people giving messages from God in written form, either from inspiration or dictation.
Because language changes constantly, words appearing last century have different connotations, emphasis and sometimes meaning within a century.
So if any God really wanted their messages to humans or scholars to stay consistent, it would have to get a new scribe to rewrite the messages every century, though since it has not done so, it's messages are no longer relevant nor valid, because the changes in language.
Maybe deists are right, the God has left humans alone to their own devices and has established more subservient, sniveling sycophants in another universe.
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
"Conduct was tied, very respectful." -Silentsvc

Someone clearly did not read the debate before voting...
Posted by ironsheik7 3 years ago
ironsheik7
[[[nubmer 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
"You have never heard his voice nor seen his form"" (John 5:37)
""I am God, and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9)
"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only"" (John 1:18)
god in not man period.

and what u gave here the events from genesis to jesus r false christains will disagree with u...
i have question which version of the bible u using??]]]

Somecrap just plays the troll game when his questions are answered, he acts like nobody answers them then posts them over again and again. that's the old Muslim trick of ignoring the truth.

He actually contradicts himself in what he typed watch this

First he gives the statement of God saying I'm not a man, who did God say this to ? Israel

Then he quotes "You have never heard his voice nor seen his form"" (John 5:37)" trying to insist that no human male has ever heard God's voice at any time. So which is it did God tell the people he's not a man, or has no human heard God's voice at any time ? LOL you can't have it both ways, either men heard God's voice when he said I'm not a man or they didn't hear his voice according to John 5:37 ?
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
Actually there is not any versions of the Bible anywhere that are Authentic, in line with the original meanings of the original texts.
To produce one is impossible, because of the way language, context, emphasis, meanings, etc... have altered in the few thousand years since since they were created.
Even KJV would be extremely error prone, and anything created since would be far worse.
Effectively, there is not any authentic representations of the original texts in existence.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, can ever interpret the original texts accurately, because every word in them has likely changed in meaning (often subtly), numerous times since they were scribed.
Just ask any expert on Linguistic History.
Our own language has changed markedly in only 100 years, many words commonly used then are almost non-existent today or their meaning has altered in use.
I conducted historical research into unionism over the last 150 years and found words changing, disappearing and some commonly words in normal newspaper articles are now considered taboo.
Posted by wooohoh 3 years ago
wooohoh
@Somecrap
I gave you KJV version because it's popular.
I do not know Hebrew nor Latin as much as I want, but I know some.

The author is more important than his books.
I believe in one and only God.
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
@wooohoh u said KJV version of the bible... read the preface of the book it says:
"Yet the King James Version has serious defects." u believe in that?
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
@wooohoh "God tells you, 'I AM WHO I AM" really? u know hebrow? i know.
u want to connect this to saying of jesus when he says 'im'?
what u dont understand is i belieive in the orignal scriptures of moses and jesus (peace be upon them) but today u got different things! can u prove me that your bible is orignal ?if yes i will go to baptize.
Posted by wooohoh 3 years ago
wooohoh
@Somecrap I gave you KJV version.

When you are saying Jesus 'is not' God, your 'is' means different from what the scripture says.

When Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, there were the Lord who gave the fire, and the another Lord who threw the fire. (Gen 19:24) And there were many other instances where Jesus or the Spirit appeared in the old testament era.

Father God, Jesus and the Spirit are in perfect agreement.

Man and his wife shall be one.
Christ and his church shall be one.
(Ephesians 5:31)

Have Faith In God and his eternal love.
The bible declares the only one way of living.
There's no other way.

It's not an imagination.
It's not just something happend in ancient times.
It's the present.

God tells you, 'I AM WHO I AM'
God always is. In the past, in the present and in the future.
His will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
what wining? he didnt refute nothing just want to mock islam ...
Posted by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
it was so boring I didnot want to read it but seems Ironsheikh is winning, I want to debate this topic with him, could you challenge me @Ironsheik, please? but not now, later maybe after 10 days. I will send you a message.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
Somecrapironsheik7Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Neither debater was impressive. At all. That said, Pro was by far the least impressive of the two. He was disrespectful in the extreme, calling Con names like "brainwashed." S&G obviously go to Con, as Po had some of the worst English I've ever seen on this site. Con did not post real speeches for his last two rounds, instead he was insulting, saying things like, "U see in every wrestling match, when the opponent knocked out, he is trying to get up for a second chance throwing at u crap hhhhh." On top of all of that, Con displayed a complete and total ignorance of some of the most basic tenets of Christianity and an unwillingness to learn. Both debaters were awful with their sources.
Vote Placed by TheUser 3 years ago
TheUser
Somecrapironsheik7Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Jesus is God! And Con did well proving it. Pro failed on sources because he showed Muslims torturing kids, and that had nothing to do with The debate. Con made more convincing arguments. Gl to both
Vote Placed by Silentsvc 3 years ago
Silentsvc
Somecrapironsheik7Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct was tied, very respectful. Niether argument was convincing, and in fact there were some blanket statemnts that both sides might want to research deeper before making a statement. Con stated "There is no sect in christianity (atleast by my research) that says jesus is the father!". This is not accurate, in fact, any church that declares a trinitarian doctrine believes this concept.
Vote Placed by Gs325jcbd 3 years ago
Gs325jcbd
Somecrapironsheik7Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: proved how jesus was not god
Vote Placed by Josh_b 3 years ago
Josh_b
Somecrapironsheik7Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro loses conduct for rounds 2/4. Con uses videos and webpages about Jesus being God. Pro uses videos about muslims torturing little kids--con has reliable resources. In round 2 pro seems to be presenting the oneness doctrine, but it falls short of proving Jesus to not be God.
Vote Placed by jesusfreak22 3 years ago
jesusfreak22
Somecrapironsheik7Tied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: See comments