The Instigator
Somecrap
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
USANationalist
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Jesus is not GOD

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/15/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,255 times Debate No: 40638
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (26)
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Somecrap

Pro

reasons why jesus christ isnt god according to the bible:

1) Mark 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." jesus is speaking...
God is all-knowing, Jesus fails this main qualification. This alone is enough to prove that Jesus is not God. Also note the verse says ONLY the Father meaning nobody else, including the divine Jesus.

2)Jesus never said I am God.
Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God:

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.

Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence.

3)Jesus was GIVEN power and authority, he did not own it.
As we all know, God is all-powerful and is independent, he needs no help from anybody. However so this is not the case with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help from God, unlike God, Jesus does not own any power or any authority, rather it is given to him from God.

Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

So as we can see, Jesus GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracle, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracle. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

4) Jesus denied being good in the sense that God is good.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So note, the man calls Jesus good, Jesus tells the man there is non good but God. Obviously Jesus referred to God as someone else, which also proves Jesus isn"t God. However the main importance of the passages is that Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect.

5) Will you worship Jesus, or the one Jesus worshiped?

One glaring problem the Christians have is that Jesus prayed, and had a God himself. This logically lets us conclude that Jesus cannot be God. The logical thing to do is worship and pray to the one Jesus prayed to. If Jesus told you that he had a God, would you honestly take Jesus as God? The logical answer is no, but Christians throw all logic out when it comes to their Bible.

Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.

So are you going worship the one Jesus prayed to? Or are you going to worship Jesus? Logically you worship the one Jesus prayed to.

Secondly just say you were alive at Jesus" time and you were with him, and you knew he prayed to God and so on, would you honestly believe he is God? Off course not.

6) God comes out of a woman? God is a helpless baby?
The very fact that Jesus was given birth,and came out as little helpless small baby is enough to refute the claim that Jesus is God. It is utter blasphemy to claim that God came out of a women like all people, it is utter blasphemy to claim God came out crying and screaming and being helpless and weak. Such nonsense is insulting to God; this itself is enough to prove Jesus is not God.

however the quran about jesus:
002.116
YUSUFALI: They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.

019.035
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

004.171
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

so i think i emphasized the point jesus never said im god or worship me... and im qouting what jesus said in his life time not what paul and others said about him...
USANationalist

Con

Jesus limited himself in human form so he could be as we are, face unknowing like we do, and choose like we choose. Jesus claims to be the Messiah. He also says "Son, your sins are forgiven." to a cripple. This shocked the Pharisees because only God can forgive your sins. He thus claimed to be God.

I will quote John "In the beginning was logos. And logos was God and logos was with God." Also, Jesus claimed to be not a prophet, but one with God. This is shown when Jesus does not deny that he is God when Paul calls him capital "Lord" in Acts 9. God is three in one because an angel appeared to Mary and said "(Jesus) will be called Son of the Most High.

Prayer for Jesus was a connection to his father, not only supplication, like prayer has become. It's like saying spam is equivalent to an email from your grandma saying how much she loves you. Jesus had human needs as a human being. He was fully God and fully Man.
Debate Round No. 1
Somecrap

Pro

ok tnx for respond...
1) u said "Jesus limited himself in human form so he could be as we are, face unknowing like we do, and choose like we choose. " did jesus says that? you are giving definition and what jesus did without evidence.. please show it that jesus said that from the bible. bible doesnt need mine your or people interpretations.

2)"Jesus claims to be the Messiah" - so what? messiah (christ) doesnt mean god. the Hebrew word for anoint is 'massahah' from which we get the word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for both Arabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, to anoint. and 1.6 bilion muslims in the world also believe that jesus was the messiah and prophet but not god.

3) "Son, your sins are forgiven."- you quouted from Mark 2:5. lets see the context of Mark 2:5-10:
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

So as we read, Jesus forgave the sin and said he has the power to do so. Had the Christian read the first 4 Gospels in context they would see that Jesus being able to forgive sin was not something divine, but rather a power given to him by God, note what Jesus says when he forgave sin:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

Notice Jesus tells the scribe that on earth Jesus had the power to forgive sins, so therefore we must now ask ourselves the question, from where did Jesus get this power? Did Jesus own this power? Let us see what Jesus said about who gave him this power, and once doing so, we shall fully grasp the context:

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

This is what Christians never quote, and when you leave such crucial information out it draws a false picture . As we see, Jesus himself stated that ALL THINGS that were given to him were FROM GOD. This means that all the miracles Jesus did were from God, so the fact that Jesus could forgive sin was because the Father had given him this great miracle, it was the Father who gave Jesus this mighty power to forgive sin.

Once we know this crucial information it completely eliminates any thought of Jesus having any divinity because of doing such a mighty miracle. If Jesus had the power from himself, and did this miracle by himself, then the Christians would have a very good case, sadly this is not the case. The reality is that the Father gave Jesus this mighty power and miracle, and if Jesus was really God, he would not need to be given such power, he would OWN IT, the fact he does not own it shows he is not God, and shows there is nothing divine about performing such a great miracle.

God grants miracles to all his prophets, shall we say that each prophet is divine for doing several amazing super-natural works? Off course not, so why do Christians do it for Jesus? Such inconsistency is very strange, and shows the Christians really have no case for showing Jesus to be God.

4) John 1:1" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."e we need to examen this in greek language its source...the answer is too long its not gonna fit the scape i have... anyway i will try to short it but if you go to the link it answers you in detail... here the link http://www.answering-christianity.com...

- Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Jesus Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators" decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason," (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command" etc.
The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words.
The renowned Trinitarian scholar, John Lightfoot, writes:

The word logos then, denoting both "reason" and "speech," was a philosophical term adopted by Alexandrian Judaism before St. Paul wrote, to express the manifestation of the Unseen God in the creation and government of the World. It included all modes by which God makes Himself known to man. As His reason, it denoted His purpose or design; as His speech, it implied His revelation. Christian teachers, when they adopted this term, exalted and fixed its meaning by attaching to it two precise and definite ideas: (1) "The Word is a Divine Person," (2) "The Word became incarnate in Jesus Christ." It is obvious that these two propositions must have altered materially the significance of all the subordinate terms connected with the idea of the logos. [17]

It is important to note that it was "Christian teachers" who attached the idea of a "divine person" to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially. Lightfoot correctly understands that the early meaning of logos concerned reason and speech, not "Jesus Christ." Norton develops the concept of logos as "reason" and writes:

There is no word in English answering to the Greek word logos, as used here [in John 1:1]. It was employed to denote a mode of conception concerning the Deity, familiar at the time when St. John wrote and intimately blended with the philosophy of his age, but long since obsolete, and so foreign from our habits of thinking that it is not easy for us to conform our minds to its apprehension. The Greek word logos, in one of its primary senses, answered nearly to our word Reason. The logos of God was regarded, not in its strictest sense, as merely the Reason of God; but, under certain aspects, as the Wisdom, the Mind, the Intellect of God (p. 307). please check it the link i gave...

5) about paul:
Paul never met Jesus during his life time. the incident the vision he saw at the road to dimascus is that the "lord" spoke to him (no mentioning about the name jesus, in acts he heard voices and light... )

-"Prayer for Jesus was a connection to his father, not only supplication, like prayer has become." - look man simple logic you dont have to be a doctore of devinity... use your brain god doesnt pray to himself do u pray to yourself?? or jesus was acting thats what u telling me.. o on the cross when he said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"? (cf. Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) Was he praying to himself? If so, was he complaining to himself about why he had forsaken himself? look i dont know if u actually read round 1 because the answer is there..
"He was fully God and fully Man." - there isnt such thing god and man at the same time... its opposits like fat and thin. if u read the bible properly jesus always show u that he is a man not a god... he never said im god or worship me.. please read round 1 u will understand what im saiding...

Dude read again 1 round ... for exsample i gave you verse Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
- how do you explain that he is refuting himself as a good and says "none good but one, [that is], God"?
- this jew didnt know about trinity father holy ghost and the son because he was a jew old testment dosent teach that.. what jesus says? keep the commandments (old testment).

i have more miliion reasons why he isnt god but u didnt touch of my arguments and i dont have many scape to write more.
USANationalist

Con

About the verses, John 10:30 said "I and the Father are one." This means that he is God. No prophet has ever claimed to be one with their God.
Now, in Deuteronomy, it also says "Hear O Israel, the Lord God our God is one."
This means Jesus is God, the God of the Old Testament, and God of the New Testament too, as well as over modern times.
Maybe since Jesus was man as we are, he got it from the Spirit. But, in Acts it also says he sent the Spirit out among them. Now, if Jesus was only a prophet, how could he command God? He is not, therefore!
Did you even read Acts 9? He said "I am Jesus, the one you have persecuted."
Now, how could he have persecuted Jesus if Jesus was only another follower of God, and up in heaven? Elijah and Moses were persecuted and tormented no more after death, why would Jesus be unless Jesus was talking about his, not just his Father's followers?
Again, Jesus was not praying to himself, but the Father. God is three, as well as one. Jesus was simply communicating with his friend who was far away, in sorts.
The last bit is a misconception. Indeed, he is calling himself good and testing the man's faith to find out why he trusts. Jesus never said that he was not good. He never said he was not God.
Debate Round No. 2
Somecrap

Pro

-"About the verses, John 10:30 said "I and the Father are one." This means that he is God. No prophet has ever claimed to be one with their God." - well few ways to answer to that :
1) Let us look at John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:23 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

Of the verse in question, "I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: "The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).

Jesus replies to this accusation saying: "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36
"in your Law" - old testment he is talking to jews, "I said ye are gods" - jesus is qouting from 82nd psalm verse 6 Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were called 'gods') and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in other words he is saying: "you can't contradict me!" Jesus knows his Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies that: "If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as 'gods' in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself is far inferior in our language, viz. 'A son of
God' as against others being called 'gods' by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself as 'god' in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no fault with me." in old testment moses,the jews even satan called "god" (in the hebrow language there is not capital letter or small) so jesus refuting them...

-"Hear O Israel, the Lord God our God is one." dude you are reading and understanding the opposite. in this verse simply shooting down your legs. he says "our god" do you understand what is "our"? its mean jesus and this people - its plural and how jesus have a god if himself a god?. if he was god he would said im the lord but he isnt said that.
"God is one" - once again he is talking to jews they dont know anythinng about trinity, this is was perfect opportunity teach them trinity if at all.

im sorry about paul and acts it mentions "I am Jesus, the one you have persecuted" i got confused with somthing else.. anyway you almost kicked me of the edge... u qouting from acts.. who is speaking? its paul not jesus. through out the bible paul says that jesus god, im asking u where jesus said in his life time on this earth with the disciples im god? there isnt one statement.. if u noticed jesus teach something and paul theaching the oppotise throw out the bible, jesus teaching one god,to follow the commandments etc... but paul always standing on the opposite side - there is 3 gods, u dont need follow the commandments u just only have to believe that jesus is lord and selvation is yours - which jesus never taught..

"Again, Jesus was not praying to himself, but the Father. God is three, as well as one. Jesus was simply communicating with his friend who was far away, in sorts."-
dude all the prophets that came to teach only the same thing all the time - god is one and few commandments..think all the prophet how many there r and yet to your undstanding jesus "god" according to u changes his way? im showing u from the saying of jesus that he taught the same it is paul who turn all. and believe me god doesnt have other gods as friends jesus told u "our god is one" simple.

-"The last bit is a misconception. Indeed, he is calling himself good and testing the man's faith to find out why he trusts.Jesus never said that he was not good"" - bro are you joking man? jesus doesnt need your absurd interpitation its clear statement - "Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God:" if he was god he would come straightforward "im good because im god" unless he is playing games.
"He never said he was not God." in every statement he proving you that he isnt god and you try to push him to be a god amazing situation...

--now i will give you more reasons --

god is greater than jesus:
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus and the holy ghost since he is not the Father.(the explaletion to verse 30 is stated at the starting..)
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)
So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him.

god cnot tempted:
James 1:13, "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." jesus tempted.
mattew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

god is not a man:
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? "Numbers 23:19 ask every pastor who is the son of man they say jesus.. (if u notice there is a contradiction in another place god repended..

see this intresting verses from job 25:4-6:
"How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?" this is knockout punch.. read this and explain... clearly saying :
1) how u compare man with god?
2) how god can be born out of women?
3) in the sight of god what is all this?! stars moon - nothing to him..
4)man = worm and son of man = worm. who is the son of man? jesus.

and pleaes explain to me this verse :
jesus: "I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."john 5:30

now im going to sleep 7:45 morning didnt sleep yet so if i made mistakes up there do not take a heed u know...
USANationalist

Con

Your problem is that Jesus was fully God and fully Man, and with being fully man came temptation. God in heaven cannot be tempted, but Jesus could.
The Son decreased his power and memory so he could become man. He remembered just enough so that he could tell parables and had just enough that he made miracle happen.
And what about John the Baptist's baptism of Jesus? God said "This is my son whom I love. With him I am am well pleased." Son" son, well, gee, what you think this mean's? God's son.
Well, my argument is this: you can become one in the Father if you believe.
This next bit is untrue. I prove it by the Holy Spirit. "And the Spirit of God descended like a dove"
Obviously, since the Holy Spirit is doing something different, isn't he God as well? Then God is 3 as well as 1. Or at least 2"
I'll defeat your other argument with this: The OT prophets spoke of the will of God as God. But now we speak of the parts of God as God as well.
Who says God didn't have other friends? God created humanity because he was lonely. He wanted someone to be closer than the angels, who were forced to follow.
Son of Man is a reference to Ezekiel. That means he has authority.
"God is not man that he should lie" That means that Jesus was not a liar. He wasn't! "Nor the person with great authority that he should repent." Did Jesus ever repent? No!
Jesus in that verse meant himself indeed, but in his limited form. For in the transfiguration, when part of his glory was shown to his disciples, that wasn't a man! That was God! No prophet had ever done that!
My final bit is this: Jesus' ressurection. He was witnessed after death by at least 300 people, and 6 speak in the gospels and letters of John.
In other words, yes, Jesus was lower than a worm in human form. He meant regular man for the rest.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only *son* that whosoever believes in (the *son) will not die, but have eternal life. Who can save but God alone? None, for man is lower than a worm!
Debate Round No. 3
Somecrap

Pro

-"Your problem is that Jesus was fully God and fully Man, and with being fully man came temptation. God in heaven cannot be tempted, but Jesus could." - leave my problem ok? u saying jesus fully god and fully man... did jesus said that? no... if yes show us from the lips of jesus saying im god and man im waiting...

" God in heaven cannot be tempted, but Jesus could." again u giving me interpretations theologians... i love jesus i want from the lips of jesus! saying that period.

"The Son decreased his power and memory so he could become man. He remembered just enough so that he could tell parables and had just enough that he made miracle happen." same assumptions give evidence from jesus...jesus is great from all the pastors and popos together i dont need them.

"God said "This is my son whom I love. With him I am am well pleased." Son" son, well, gee, what you think this mean's? God's son." i already gave u jesus qouting from old testment that god said ""I said ye are gods. " to refute the jews.. if god says to somebody my son it doesnt mean he is god,its a metaphorical use in the jewish language ask any jew. here examples :
Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38
The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. -- John 1:12

its a metaphorical meaning: "godly perosn a righteous person".

"And the Spirit of God descended like a dove" first of all jesus doesnt says that,secondly it doesnt say "god", its says spirit of god. the word spirit used by a metaphorical way like son of god... the bible full of metaphorical words. few examples:
-Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"
-Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."
-Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."
-1 Samuel 18:10 "The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand..." GOD Almighty has an evil spirit? Obviously not, its only metaphoric as mentioned above. (even in the quran there are things like that but its a metaphoric).

"you can become one in the Father if you believe."- so you are god too no? according to your logic. this one means "in purpose" i prove to you in round 3.

"I'll defeat your other argument with this: The OT prophets spoke of the will of God as God. But now we speak of the parts of God as God as well." - first this is the theology of paul and the christians to day.. i want to believe to jesus not you what jesus said about it? believe me take any version of the bible there isnt straightforward statement that jesus claims - im god or worship me... look it has to be in the bible this is the foundation of christendom. in the old testment (in the quran too) god says "im the only god . im one god" stuff like that but why jesus never claimed such thing? because he isnt god simple.

"Who says God didn't have other friends? God created humanity because he was lonely. He wanted someone to be closer than the angels, who were forced to follow." please people dont need your interpretations or the popo's. give evidence.

"Son of Man is a reference to Ezekiel. That means he has authority."- your interpretation. it says son of man and it occurs many time in the bible. ask every prist they tell you its jesus., and i dont know why you bring this anyway...

-"God is not man that he should lie" That means that Jesus was not a liar. He wasn't! "Nor the person with great authority that he should repent." Did Jesus ever repent? No!-
again for the miliion time its says god not jesus."That means" -it doent mean that and its your assumption give evidence.
read this verse again - !god is not a man! 2 he doesnt lie 3 nor repent, even though there is a condradiction in the bible :
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over Israel. " 1 samuel 15:35
"Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. Jeremiah 4:10

"For in the transfiguration, when part of his glory was shown to his disciples, that wasn't a man! That was God! No prophet had ever done that!"- i dont know what you talking about give reference verse.

- Lets examine the resurrection. You see you read your Holy Scripture in your mother tongue, like every Christian belonging to a thousand different language groups, and yet each and every Christian language group understands
the facts, opposite to what he is reading. when Jesus returned to that upper room after his alleged crucifixion: 'And saith unto them, (his disciples), 'Peace be unto you' Luke 24:36, and his disciples were terrified on recognizing him. Why should they be terrified? When one recognizes ones long-lost friend or ones beloved, the natural reaction is to feel overjoyed, elated and one wants to embrace and kiss the hands and feet of the beloved. Why did they get terrified? the disciples thought that they were seeing a ghost.Did Jesus look like a ghost? no. You see, the disciples of Jesus were not eye witnesses or ear witnesses to the actual happenings of the previous three days, as vouched for by St. Mark who says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus: "they all forsook him and fled." Mark 14:50. All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was hanged on the Cross, they had heard that he had given up the Ghost, they had heard that he was dead and buried for three days. If one is confronted by a person
with such a reputation then the conclusion is inescapable, they must be seeing a ghost. Little wonder these ten brave men were petrified."To disabuse their minds from the fear that gripped them, Jesus reasoned with them. He said: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself' To put it in colloquial English, this is how he told them: 'What is wrong with you fellows, can't you see that I am the same person - who walked and talked with you, broke bread with you - flesh and blood in all
respects.Why do doubts enter your minds? 'Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have.' Luke 24:39. In other words he is telling them: 'If I have flesh and bones, then I am not a ghost, not a spook and not a spirit!.Jesus is telling them, as recorded in this verse, in basic English, that what the disciples were asked to "handle and see" was not a translated body, not a metamorphosed body and not a resurrected body, because a resurrected body is a
spiritualised body. He is telling them in the clearest language humanly possible that he is not what they were thinking. They were thinking that he was a spirit, a resurrected body, one having been brought back from the dead. He is most emphatic that he is not.
-But how can you be so sure that the resurrected body cannot materialize physically as Jesus had obviously done?:
Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 20, where the learned men of the Jews- "the chief priests and the scribes with the elders"- had come to him with a number of posers, and among them was one about a Jewess who had seven husbands in turn, one after another according to a Jewish custom, and in time all seven husbands and the woman too died.The trap that the religious hierarchy was trying to spring on him was; which one of the seven husbands was going to possess the
woman on the 'Other side'- at the resurrection?- since they reasoned with Jesus that the seven brothers had her.
There was no problem while they fulfilled their obligation of trying to give her a child, because they had possessed her one by one in turn, and it was after the death of one that the other had taken her to wife. But since at the resurrection all seven will be brought to life simultaneously, there will be strife in heaven because all seven would want to get at her at
the same time, specially if they had pleasure with her.Jesus debunked their false notion of the resurrection, by saying that at the resurrection: 'neither shall they die any more' (Luke 20:36) meaning that the resurrected persons will be
Immortalised. They will not be subject to death any more, no more hanger or thirst, no more fatigue. In short, all the instruments of death will be powerless against the resurrected body. Jesus continues to explain: 'for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto the angles,' that is, that they will be Angelised - spiritualised, that they will become spirit-creatures, i.e. Spirits;'and the children of God, for such are the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:36.
- But how can you be so sure?
He is Not what they were thinking, that he was not a Spirit, not a Ghost, not a Spook. To assure them further after having offered his hands and feet for inspection and verification that his was a material, physical body, and that all their bewilderment and disbelief was unjustified, he asked his disciples: "Have you here any meat?" (Meaning something to eat). "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and did eat before them.Luke 24:41-43

-"Albert Schweizer records him saying: "If Christ had only eaten to show that he could eat, while he really had no need of nourishment, if would have been a pretense, something docetic."( In Quest of the Historical Jesus, page 64).
Schleliermacher and other Christian scholars over a hundred years ago doubted the death of Jesus on the cross as recorded by Albert Schweizer."

here a good debate Crucifixion - Fact or Fiction? https://www.youtube.com... ahmed deedat (a muslim bible scholar vs prist Robert Douglas).
USANationalist

Con

Really? Well, assumptions must be made. Like assumptions you make that God can not be Man. Why couldn't he? I'm usinh common sense here. Someone doesn't realize that Jesus meant for us to assume! Look at how little he actually taught us about the kingdom of heaven without assumptions. You have to make assumptions in the bible, like you do every day. You assume the sun still shines, that you have food in your fridge, etc. Therefore, your argument is invalid.
Sons of God meaning holy ones! This! The word this! Not these are my sons! This is my son! Oh so you can't make assumptions in that he was limited, but you can that he was just another Son of God? Pshhhh, please.
But, you still don't answer for the Holy Spirit how he was doing something different than the Father.
If God is good, then that must mean it was a d"mon. Also, how could God be against God? A house divided against itself cannot stand!
Now, when you say Jesus never claimed to be the Christ, well, you can't say that if the debate ain't over yet. As I told you, he forgave the crippled man's sins. He was claiming to be God.
And what about Jesus saying "Before Abraham, I Am!" It was a claim to be God!
Son of Man was a reference to Ezekiel one example: Ezekiel 37:1- "Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal."
The Lord's repentance was not for a sin though. Satan had corrupted his beauty and God was sorry for Israel that he had put a weak-minded man in such position.
Well about the disciples, the reason was on the night Jesus was betrayed, he was abandoned by them! Also, if a man appeared to you but only looked like a deceased loved one, how happy would you be?
That means at time's end for the "ressurection debunked"
And no, this debate is between me and you, not some random scholar.
Mr. Schweizer was wrong, I believe. Jesus needed to eat during this time, and only acted like he did to hide from the unbelievers. If they hadn't faith before, why now?
He also says those who have not seen him and believe will have a greater reward.
Debate Round No. 4
Somecrap

Pro

i must say that assumptions and interpretations should be made you are right, for one verse can be many interpretations ... but also you need to provide at least one solid reason or point that you can built foundetion on and backing your assumption.
what i mean is for example in the old testment god says several times "im god, im the lord, worship me" (i gave i round 1 many verses...) so you can see ? now i can link other verses with assumptions and interpretations (i cant go and do the contrary saying he isnt god). now lets go to jesus and see if he said that "im god or worship me", so if he didnt say that why i should believe that he is god? its more likely to assume he is prophet according to his deeds and saying and im not going to put my believe and salvation on assumptions without solid prove...or if you have atleat one verse saying im god show us...

why im saying that? because someone can come and say he isnt god or prophet he is something else,, for instance claiming that jesus is the holy ghost (they are the same) and he gives you verses from the bible like this verse -""And the Spirit of God descended like a dove"" but did jesus say he is the holy ghost ?no, so he assuming something but we dont know if he is right or worng.

"Sons of God meaning holy ones! This! The word this! Not these are my sons! This is my son! " xD
ok lets look at "son of god" -someone reading the new testment it and comes to conclusion "son of god" = god, but after a while he comes to old testment and boom! Adam is the son of god, Jacob is Gods son, Solomon is Gods son,Ephraim is God's firstborn,"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Deuteronomy 14:1. and others telling you that jesus is the only beggoten/unique son of god. so that makes him a god? now i come and telling you yes he is unique because he is born without father, he had amazing powers like the miracle of the raising of Lazarus. so im coming and show you that jesus said:
""Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."" he is praying to god! and showing them he is doing this by the help of god the father "that they may believe that you sent me" - it is a saying of a prophet or god? if he was god he would doing right away...

"you still don't answer for the Holy Spirit how he was doing something different than the Father." this is out of the debate is jesus god... what i have to do with holy ghost here.

"If God is good, then that must mean it was a d"mon" - no it doesnt. in every religion these 2 are always opposites god is on the good side and demons are on the evil side. its commen sense unless someone worshiping demon.
. Also, how could God be against God? A house divided against itself cannot stand!" - jesus said im not good only god is good, so if he was a god he was contradicting him self and god cnot be against god, a house divided against itself cannot stand, if he was a prophet it doesnt contradict your statemesnt. so you helped me to clarify thank you.

"Now, when you say Jesus never claimed to be the Christ,"- false allegation. im telling you JESUS IS THE CHRIST (messiah in hebrow) and i gave you what it mean in hebrow and even more and im testifying the quran confirms he is the CHRIST.

Quran (3:45-48):
"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" --- described as a "jesus CHRIST"
Quran (19:30-35):
-"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" . --- described as a prophet

Quran (5:116-117):
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" --- described as he never claimed to be a god.

So im proving you that jesus never said he is a god according to the bible not the quran (even though the new testment we have today is written and composed by different writers after hundreds of years after death of jesus christ).

"he forgave the crippled man's sins. He was claiming to be God." i showed you that jesus forgave sins because god gave him that power. nowhere jesus claim he is doing the works/mircales its allways by god's help.
John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God. all his power is given to him FROM GOD. and on in other verses:
"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."John 5:30 - are you telling me that god saying this or prophet?
"My Father is greater than i"(John 14:28)
"My father is greater than all"(John 10:29)
"When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven." (Luke 11:2) - so next time you pray bro pray to the father not jesus.
""n that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name." (John 16:23)
"The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him." (John 4:23)
"that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
"he continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12)
"Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve" (Matthew 20:28) - its a clear cut.
anyway i think you got my point...

Jesus saying "I am":

"Before Abraham was I am" (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God? how many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not.

"Son of Man was a reference to Ezekiel" i dont understand what you are trying to say here.
"The Lord's repentance was not for a sin though" so god repented.

"Well about the disciples, the reason was on the night Jesus was betrayed, he was abandoned by them! Also, if a man appeared to you but only looked like a deceased loved one, how happy would you be? That means at time's end for the "ressurection debunked" - you didnt read the scriptures.. the problem is that the disciples are confronted with evidence that Jesus is ALIVE! Not resurrected (i.e. not spiritualised), but evidence that he is the same physical Jesus, flesh and bones as any one of them! Eating food! In disguise but not a spirit and not a ghost. This is what they could not believe:
- "... they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believed not." - Mark 16:11- Mary Magdalene testifies that Jesus is ALIVE not resurrected.
-"...angels who had said that he was ALIVE! - Luke 24:23 ALIVE not resurrected
-"Why seek ye the living among the dead?" - Luke 24:4 LIVING/ALIVE not resurrected
my point is everbody saying that jesus ALIVE not resurrected
!ALIVE!-: If these verses were inspired by God, then it seems that the holy ghost didnt have the word RESURRECTED in its vocabulary.

" not some random scholar." - its for everybody to know more about the subject.
-"and only acted like" - there is no reason to act he already "died" they cant kill him twice.
about the reward - same in islam about mohhamed s.a.w. it doesnt make him god
USANationalist

Con

He does though. John 3:16 says God's only begotten son (Jesus) was sent to save us. In his own words. That proves it if nothing else. Who else was a contender? No one but a perfect man could. That's why Jesus is.
No, that was a clear reference to Moses! Even if it wasn't, he is saying he was before Abraham! Older than Methuselah!
And no, it isn't like that for Jeremiah. God was in the planning phases of Jeremiah. Jeremiah will be, but Jesus is and was as well basically. After studying Hebrew culture a bit, I learned that they reserved that use of that certain term to refer to Jehovah.
Again with the Father is greater than I verses, Jesus was for some referring to his current time on Earth, others to saying he and God are of united will.
And as for ressurection verses, they clearly saw him die, and clearly saw him live! It's just semantics there it's like saying since you said you had a BLT for lunch, it couldn't have been a Bacon Lettuce Tomato Sandwich because of your word choice.
Debate Round No. 5
26 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
@ironsheik7 DO U RECIEVED THE DEBATE? I CANT FIND IT OR IT SHUOLD TO CONFIRM YOUR ACCEPTANCES?
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
lol i will open tomorrow i dont have time now...ironsheik7 i will send u the debate..
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
lol i will open tomorrow i dont have time now...ironsheik7 i will send u the debate..
Posted by USANationalist 3 years ago
USANationalist
You go to debates and one of you creates it. Then you put a specific username (Somecrap or ironsheik seven) in your opponent name field. Set the rest however you wish.
Posted by ironsheik7 3 years ago
ironsheik7
@ somecrap Okay, how do we do this, do you need to make another debate titled "Jesus is not GOD" ?
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
whenever u wish ^^
Posted by ironsheik7 3 years ago
ironsheik7
@somecrap , I'm new to this forum, as in just signed up, is it possible that I could debate with you on the subject is Jesus God ? no offense to your current opponent but I know I could do a better Job and actually give you a real debate on the subject.
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
@simpleman dude im not taking what mohhamed (saw) saying... im trying to show u in your bible.. " whereas Mohammed lived several hundred years later," - it doesnt matter 6 hundred and miliion years if god says so is true... but u dont believe in the quran so im going to the bible through it... when im saying debates in youtube is between scholars better 100 times of me or u or everybody here,, there u can comprehend better the issue,, anyway im going to sleep good morning....
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
@ janetsanders733 its funny jesus never said he is god and u push in peoples throat that he is god.. it isnt amazing that its your foundation of christianity but its not in the bible...please if u can respond to my arguments in the debate it will be astounding.
@simpleman i will check it tnk for that ......
Posted by simpleman 3 years ago
simpleman
Also, the Biblical accounts of Jesus were written withing 40 years of His crucifixion, whereas Mohammed lived several hundred years later, but you take his word to be more true than those who lived with Jesus and observed these things firsthand? That is not very bright.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Hierocles 2 years ago
Hierocles
SomecrapUSANationalistTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This is totally beyond the scope of human knowledge and cannot be proven in either the affirmative or the negative. Neither of you can learn anything, and it's a entire waste of your time.