The Instigator
Dave.Carter
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
palmertio0
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Jesus is not God

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/18/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 317 times Debate No: 81143
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

Dave.Carter

Pro

Mainstream Christianity teaches that Jesus is God however there are no clear or unaltered verses in any of the bible that support this.
Jesus tells us;
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mark 10:18)
call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. (Matthew 23:9)
Jesus never claimed to be God and always made it clear that he was sent by God.
palmertio0

Con

I accept. There is so much evidence in the Bible to prove you wrong.
Debate Round No. 1
Dave.Carter

Pro

I have provided two quotes from Jesus that clearly show that he did not believe himself to be God. He never claimed to be God but made it clear that only the Creator is God. Without any clear and unaltered Bible text stating that Jesus is God Christians have no reason to believe that he is. Jesus did not preach that he was God. We know this because the Bible tells us that those he preached to believed him to be a prophet. Jesus claimed that he was a prophet he simply never claimed to be God.
palmertio0

Con

You are proven wrong in the very first chapter of Luke:
"The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) [1]

Multiple times, Jesus says he is the Son of God:
"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33) [2]

Even the demons recognized Jesus as the Son of God:
"He shouted at the top of his voice, 'What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!'" (Mark 5:7) [3]

But the most powerful argument that Jesus is the Son of God and is therefore God comes from the first chapter of John:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-3,14) [4]

So there you have it. ALL FOUR GOSPELS say Jesus is the SON OF GOD, and is therefore GOD.

Links to all verses:
[1] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[2] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[3] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[4] https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Dave.Carter

Pro

The entire premise of your argument is that being the son of God makes you God. John the Baptist was also born through immaculate conception, therefore he is also the son of God yet we quite rightly have no reason to believe that he is God. Adam is also the son of God and again we have no reason to believe that this makes him God. The Bible states that if we are led by the spirit of God then we (even your good self and I) are in fact sons of God (Romans 8:14).

Clearly the term son of God does in no way mean the same as God and therefore your argument is fallacious.
palmertio0

Con

Again I repeat, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) [1].

You are stating an incorrect definition of immaculate conception. Immaculate conception is not Jesus' conception while Mary was still a virgin, but rather "that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin." [2] John was not immaculately conceived, but rather was cleansed of sin during the Visitation. [3] Notwithstanding the incorrect definition, John was NOT born from a virgin or directly from the Holy Spirit. Zechariah and Elizabeth had tried to conceive, and therefore had intercourse, but were not able bear a child to until the Lord allowed them to (Luke 1:5-25). [4] This is not like Mary conceiving Jesus through the Holy Spirit, but rather more like the story of Abraham and Sarah having Isaac even when she was old and barren (Genesis 18:11-14). [5]

I recently found an article outlining the several times in the Bible where Jesus DOES claim to be God. [6] Here is summary of them (I won't link these as there are quite a few):

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30)
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9)
"'Very truly I tell you,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58)
"But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38)
"You call me "Teacher" and "Lord," and rightly so, for that is what I am" (John 13:13)

And finally, as a rebuttal to your statements in Round 1:
"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" (Mark 10:18). [7] can be interpreted very differently from they way you chose to. It means that since Jesus is the "Good Shepherd" as he is so often called, then he must therefore be God, since He is good. Finally, your second statement "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9) [8] is Jesus telling us to let go of the earthly desires which hold us back from heaven, which may or may not include family members.

[1] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[2] http://www.catholic.com...
[3] http://www.newadvent.org...
[4] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[5] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[6] http://www1.cbn.com...
[7] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[8] https://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Dave.Carter

Pro

I stand corrected with regards to John the Baptist; I agree that his situation is more comparable to that of Abraham and Sara. Nonetheless the point remains that being the son of God.

I'll repeat John 1:1 back to you but with the original Greek words inserted in place of the English word God that appears twice.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with theon, and the Word was theos"

theon can only be translated as God. theon is not always translated as God but can and has been used in the bible to refer to men that are not literally Gods but worthy of an honorary title. Jesus uses this word in its plural form in John 10:34 -

'Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?'

As you can see John 1:1 is ambiguous. Theos may be referring to God, but then again it may not. Let us read on a few verses to John 1:18 to get some clarification -

'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

Clearly John did not mean theos to be translated as God because as he points out no one has seen God. Jesus declares God, he never claims to be God. Let us read more of the Gospel of John to gain even more clarity.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.' (John 5:30)

Later in John Jesus also informs us that "the Father is greater than I" (14:28)

Not only does Jesus not claim to be God but he makes it clear that God is greater than he is and that rather than being God he is in fact Gods humble servant.

I'll deal with all of your verses individually.

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30)

If you read the verses before this, particularly verse 25 then it is clear that Jesus meant that his purpose is at one with God not that he is literally God -

Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.' (John 10:25)

Jesus stated that he wanted everyone to be at one with God (John 17:21) so that we may all carry out Gods purpose obviously not all actually become Gods ourselves.

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9)

If we read the following verse (John 14:10) then it becomes clear that Jesus is not saying that he is God, he claims no ownership over what he says and does, he clarifies that it is not from him but from God.

'Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT OF MYSELF: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.'

"'Very truly I tell you,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58)

It is not possible for us to make a direct comparison of what Jesus is saying that was recorded in Greek to be identical to what God said to Abraham in Exodus. All we can assert from this verse is that Jesus existed before Abraham, this verse makes no suggestion that Jesus is claiming to be God.

"But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38)

Later in the Gospel of John Jesus states -
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." John 14:20
A few verses on,
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:23)

So the Father is in Jesus, Jesus is in the Father, the disciples will be in Jesus, Jesus will be in the disciples and if we love Jesus and keep his words then the Father and Jesus will make their abode with us. You see the same language is used towards the disciples and anyone that loves and carries out the words of Jesus. He demonstrates a perfect relationship with God that the disciples and anyone else can also achieve. That does not make Jesus the disciples or anyone else God.

"You call me "Teacher" and "Lord," and rightly so, for that is what I am" (John 13:13)

Of course Jesus is their teacher and master, this is the literal translation of this verse. The word Lord is somewhat of a mistranslation. The original Greek text uses the word 'kyrios' for lord which does not mean God it means sir. It's a common Greek word which is simply a polite way to address someone. At the very most it can mean master which is obviously the correct translation in this instance. kyrios is never used to refer to God.

As for your rebuttal of "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" (Mark 10:18). I find it very hard to believe that anyone reading this verse could possibly come to your conclusion unless they already had a preconceived idea that Jesus has to be God. The Gospels are not meant to by cryptic but easy to understand. It seems that your twisting biblical truth to fit into your own doctrine. On numerous occasions Jesus makes it clear that he was sent by God, was given his power and authority by God and therefore gives all credit to God taking none for himself. This is consistent with the most obvious interpretation of Mark 10:18.

'If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:' (John 8:54)

'the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.' (John 14:10)

Jesus gives all the glory to God the one that gave him the power and authority. God has no need to be given power, authority or anything. He is and has always been in possession of all things. He takes the glory for all things himself. This is in stark contrast to Jesus demonstrating that he is not omnipotent as God is believed to be.

Finally, "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9)
Read the verses prior to this, he is not talking about one's family members he is talking about religious leaders and instructing us not to follow them but to only follow our heavenly Father.
palmertio0

Con

palmertio0 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Dave.Carter

Pro

I hope that my contestant palmertio0's lack of response is not due to any personal adversity.
palmertio0

Con

Sorry. I was unable to reply to this debate as I was quite busy over the past few days. Thank you for letting me participate in this debate.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by palmertio0 1 year ago
palmertio0
Sorry, I just signed up to this website and took on WAYYY too many debates at the same time.
Posted by John_Royals 1 year ago
John_Royals
Lol, God doesn't exist. But it is very provable in the Bible alone that Christ is God as well as the Holy Spirit.
No votes have been placed for this debate.