The Instigator
Mr.Infidel
Pro (for)
Winning
34 Points
The Contender
Liquidus
Con (against)
Losing
25 Points

Jesus is not the messiah

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 12 votes the winner is...
Mr.Infidel
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/10/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,553 times Debate No: 19219
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (16)
Votes (12)

 

Mr.Infidel

Pro

Resolution

Jesus is not the messiah that was predicted in the Old Testament.

The opponents of the debate, and what positions they will argue.

Mr.Infidel is possitive, my opponent is negative.

The length of the debate, in number of rounds.

Arguments begin in round 2

There are a total of 4 rounds.

The maximum length of each statement.

8,000 characters.

The time limit between statements.


72 hours.

Burden of Proof

Either I have the full BOP or my opponent can share the BOP. Either one works for me. If my opponent chooses the latter, I request a max of 3 messianic prophecies that Jesus allegedly fulfilled so I can have the most time to rebut them.
______________________________

For the Old Testament, I request my opponent use the JPS translator available online at chabad.org

Thesis:

Jesus is not the Jewish messiah because he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies, and he did not embody the personal qualifications to be the messiah.

Messiah: The messiah is a Hebrew word meaning annointed one. Generally, this is being PROPERLY annointed with oil. I will explain in round 2.

DO NOT ACCEPT IF YOU ARE JUST GOING TO PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE! PLEASE BE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS DEBATE! IF YOU TROLL, I WILL BLOCK YOU!

Liquidus

Con

Mr.Infidel,

Thank you for allowing me the honor of debating such an important topic with you. I also thank you for your fair requirements.

My Resolution

Jesus is the Messiah that was predicted in the Old Testament.

Support

I do agree with you on your definition of "Messiah". It does in fact, interpret as "anointed one" in Hebrew.

However, I do not believe that He was to be anointed with oil. As you stated earlier, "Generally, this is being PROPERLY anointed with oil." The word to note in this passage is "Generally".

A Note Of Requiring Prophecies

You stated that " I request a max of 3 messianic prophecies that Jesus allegedly fulfilled so I can have the most time to rebut them. "

Will assure you that there are over 400 prophecies Jesus fulfilled. And that it would be a 1 in 100 Trillion chance for Jesus to fulfill at least 8 of them.

I also should mention that in order for this argument to be successful and efficient, we must assume that the Bible (KJV) is an accurate and historic text WHILE agreeing that all events recorded in the Bible are true. If you are coming from a Judaism belief system, you may find yourself to be rejecting the New Testament. In that case, there would be no evidence to base my claims on unless we at least compromised on the New Testament being a historic document, which it is.

Prophecies

Because you have only asked for three Messianic prophecies, I will provide three that I find to be interesting.

1. Prophecy:

Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid
as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Fulfilled:

John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

And Luke 23:18
And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:

2. Prophecy:

Psalm 35:11
False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.

Fulfilled:

Mark 14:57-58
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I
will build another made without hands.

3. Prophecy:

Psalm 34:20
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Fulfilled:

John 19:32, 33, 36
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with
him.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not
his legs: For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Conclusion

These prophecies clearly demonstrate some of the fulfillments of Jesus Christ.
To deny these would be to deny the Bible, to deny the Bible would be to deny the Old Testament and thus, Deny the prophecy itself.

I ask that my opponent supply a prophecy that was not fulfilled by Jesus (if any).

Thank you for your time, and I wish you the best of luck.










Debate Round No. 1
Mr.Infidel

Pro

My opponent already has broken the rules. First round is to be acceptance only, not for arguments. "Arguments begin in round 2" hence I urge a vote for pro for that alone.

What will the Messiah do?

  1. The messiah will fulfill the messianic prophecies.
  2. Jesus did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.
  3. Therefore, Jesus is not the messiah.

In order for one to understand premise 2, one must understand exactly what the Messiah will do. The Messiah is going to: (1) Build the Third Temple; (2) Gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel; (3) Usher in an era of world peace, end all hatred, suffering, oppression, and disease; and (4) Spread the universal knowledge of God of Israel, which will unite all of humanity as one.

A. Build the Third Temple

Ezekiel 37:26-28 says, “And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a G-d, and they shall be to Me as a people. And the nations shall know that I am the L-rd, Who sanctifies Israel, when my Sanctuary is in their midst forever. "

B. Gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel

Isaiah 43:5-6, “Fear not for I am with you; from the east I will bring your seed, and from the west I will gather you. I will say to the north, “Give,” and to the south, “Do not refrain”; bring My sons from afar and My daughters from the ends of the earth.”

C. Usher in an era of world peace

Isaiah 2:4, “Nations shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.”

D. Spread the universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, which will unite humanity as one.

Zechariah 14:9, “G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be the One and His Name will be One.”

.

This is what the Messiah will do. It is a historical fact Jesus did NOT fulfill ANY of this. Therefore, he cannot be the Messiah.

Jesus did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of the Messiah

A. Jesus as a descendent of David.

  1. The messiah will be a descendent of David.
  2. Jesus was born of a virgin.
  3. Therefore, it is impossible for Jesus to have been a legal descendent of David.
  4. Therefore, Jesus is not the messiah.

According to prophecy, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like ordinary people. He will not be a demigod, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah MUST descend on his father’s side from King David. If we take the Christian idea that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he had no father—and could not have fulfilled this particular qualification to be Messiah.

According to Jewish Law, the father is the parent that gives the legal heritage, whilst the mother determines whether or not the child is a Jew.

B. Torah Observance

  1. The messiah will lead the Jewish people back to full Torah observance.
  2. Jesus led people away from the Torah.
  3. Therefore, he was not the Messiah.

According to Deuteronomy 13:1-4, anyone who attempts to change the Torah is identified as a false prophet.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts that Torah.

  1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19).
    He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
  2. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).

With those 3 things, it becomes abundantly clear Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

  1. The Messiah will not be God.
  2. Jesus claimed to be God.
  3. Therefore, Jesus is not Messiah.

The messiah will NOT be a demi-god like Jesus allegedly was. In fact, the concept of the trinity has no greater foe than the “Old” Testament.

  1. "G-d is not a man, who can lie, nor the son of man, who relents... He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen perverseness in Israel" (Numbers 23:19).
  2. "For their 'rock' is not like our Rock... Where is their god, in whom they trusted?" (Deut. 32:31, 37).
  3. "'See now that I, only I, am He, and there is no god with Me. I kill, and I bring to life; I wound, and I heal, and there is none who can rescue from My Hand...' Sing songs of joy, gentiles, with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will take vengeance on His enemies, and will forgive His land and His people" (Deut. 32:39, 43).
  4. "I, only I am Hashem (the L-rd), and besides Me there is no savior" (Isaiah 43:11).
  5. "I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god... Is there a god besides Me? There is no rock; I do not know any" (Isaiah 44:6).

Indeed, the doctrine of the trinity has no greater foe than that of the Christian “Old” testament. There are countless verses that deal with the unity of G-d. Christian missionaries have long since recognized and admitted that the Jews NEVER understood G-d to be a trinity; hence we can conclude there is probably no reason to believe in it.

C. The Messiah as a Prophet

  1. The Messiah will be a prophet. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)
  2. Jesus was not a prophet.
  3. Therefore, he was not the Messiah.

In order to prove point 2, I shall prove that he could NOT have been a prophet because: (1) He failed the litmus test, and (2) Prophecy did not exist at the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

JESUS FAILED THE LITMUS TEST

The Torah gives us a litmus test in order to show us who the real prophets are and who the false prophets are. In this litmus test, there are three ways to know whether or not we should trust a man who claims to be a prophet: (1) If his prophecies fail, he is not a true prophet; (2) If he attempts to change the Torah, he is a false prophet; and (3) If he attempts to bring Israel into idolatry, he is a false prophet.

Jesus’ prophecies failed.

  1. A true prophet from G-d will not have any failed prophecies.
  2. Jesus’ prophecies failed.
  3. Therefore, he was not from G-d.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

According to this prophecy, there are seven things that will happen: (1) The sun will be darkened; (2) The moon will not give light; (3) The stars will fall from the sky; (4) This generation will not pass away until all of this has been fulfilled; (5) The sign of the Son of Man shall appear; (6) He will gather his elect from the four winds; and (7) The tribes of the earth will mourn.


Rabbi Shraga Simmons. “Why Jews Reject Jesus.” http://www.aish.com...

Author Unknown. “Who was Jesus”? http://www.noahide.com...

Rabbi Tovia Singer. “Passages That Show G-d’s Unity.” http://www.outreachjudaism.org...

Liquidus

Con

I apologize for presenting an argument in the first round. I believed it to be important that we started as soon as possible beings as this topic is much more than five rounds. I did this only for the respect of the debate.

However, I do not appreciate your urging of a vote for Pro solely because procedure was not followed properly. I had thought this was to be a serious debate and not a point gathering competition. I also point out that you have poured out many different points that are interpreted by you as statements against Jesus being the Messiah. I also point out that as you are a recent convert to Judaism you have not been fully equipped with the proper knowledge of the differences between Judaism and Christianity. If you were a bit more knowlegable in your beliefs as well as mine, you would see that many of your "challenges" could easily be pointed out as a fallacy or a misunderstanding. I don't believe that it will be possible to clearly organize a single rebuttal to your initial argument. I do this for the sake of my opponent, the readers, and the debate itself. I also should mention that I feel this debate is directed as more of a confirmation of Judaist faith for yourself than an actual competition. You want to know personally that Jesus is not the Messiah, But I should tell you He is. I will start with a rebuttal that should cover some of what you said in your opening argument:

The word "Messiah" means "Anointed One," the name given to the promised Delivererwho would some day come to the people of Israel as their greatSavior and Redeemer, "anointed" as Prophet, Priest, and King by God Himself.

Some, of course, are still looking for the fulfillment of these Old Testament promises in the future, when the "Messiah" will come to establish a world kingdom of peace and justice centered around the chosen nation, Israel.

On the other hand, the group of Jewish believers who became the first founders of Christianity were convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was their promised Messiah. The name "Christ" is the Greek equivalent of “Messiah,” so that the name Jesus Christ really means "Jesus theMessiah," or "Jesus the anointed." They preached this truth with such conviction and power that not only many Jews but, later, a still greater host of Gentiles, believed on Jesus, both as the Christ and also as the Lordand Savior of all men.

And indeed they had good reason for such faith. The Old TestamentMessianic prophecies were found to be uniquely fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are hundreds of these prophecies, so that the possibility of their accidental convergence on any ordinary man is completely ruled out by the laws of probability.

Some of the prophecies are so framed, in fact, as to preclude their fulfillment by anyone living after the first century A.D. For example, thepatriarch Jacob said, in Genesis 49:10, "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come." The name “Shiloh” is a title of the Messiah, and the prophecy states thatJudah's tribe would remain the chief tribe in Israel, in particular providing their kings, until Messiah would come. The prophecy must have been fulfilled prior to the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem in A.D. 70, by which time certainly all semblance of a scepter had departed from Judah.

Similarly the promise was given to King David that the Messiah should be one of his descendants, as the King eternal, the one of whom God said, "I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (II Samuel 7:13). Isaiahsaid, "There shall come forth a rod out of the stem (literally 'stump') ofJesse (that is David's father), and a Branch shall grow out of his roots" (Isaiah 11:1). This is another name of the Messiah, and indicates that, even after it would appear that the family tree of Jesse has been cut down, yet one Branch will grow out of the stump. Evidently the very last one who could be known to have come of this lineage would finally prove to be the promised Messiah!

This was fulfilled uniquely in Jesus. His foster father, Joseph, was in the royal line from David and thus held the legal right to the throne (Matthew 1:1-16). His mother, Mary, was also a descendant of David, as shown by her genealogy in Luke 3:23-31. But ever since the time of Jesus, it would be quite impossible to establish the legal or biological lineage of any pretender to David's throne, as all the ancient genealogical records were destroyed soon after that.

An even more striking prophecy is given in Daniel 9:24-27. There Danielwas told explicitly that Messiah would come 69 "Sabbaths" (that is, 69 sabbatical years - a total of 483 years) after the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem, which at that time lay in ruins after Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had destroyed it.

Such a decree was given later by the Persian emperor. Although the exact date of the decree is somewhat uncertain, the termination date of the prophecy must have been some time in the first century A.D. In fact, it must have been before the destruction of the city and the temple by theRomans in A.D. 70, because the prophecy said quite explicitly: “After (the 483 years) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” (Daniel 9:26). Not only must Messiah come before this destruction, but He was also to be“cut off,” rejected and killed, before it came.

It is obvious that no one but Jesus could have fulfilled these prophecies. The prophecies absolutely preclude any still future Messiah, except that even that hope also will find its fulfillment in the second coming of Christ.

And then, of course, there are still hundreds of other prophecies, all of which were fulfilled by Jesus Christ: His virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14); His birthin Bethlehem (Micah 5:2); His sacrificial death (Isaiah 53:5); Hiscrucifixion (Psalm 22:14-18); His bodily resurrection (Psalm 16:10); and many others. All of these unite in their witness that “Jesus is the Christ, theSon of God” (John 20:31).

The probability that hundreds of such specific predictions, each quite independent of the others, could all be fulfilled concurrently in one individual, is unlikely in the highest degree, especially in view of the miraculous nature of many of them (e.g., the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc.). No rational conclusion seems possible except that Jesus is all He claims - Messiah, Savior, Lord and God.


I recommend that you look into the Christian point of view when considering Jesus being the Messiah. I also challenge yourself think about this "If Judaism is clearly true, and cannot be wrong in any way, why are there so many converts to Christianity? Are they all wrong? If they are, then why is Christianity so convincing? What is it that they are seeing that I am not?

If you are serious about knowing the truth then look into the New Testament. God promised that if you seek the truth you will find it. Matthew 7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

God promises that if you search for the truth, the truth will be revealed to you, and what you do with that truth determines if you will receive more truth. You went from an atheist to a Judaist; maybe God is trying to show you the truth. It seems only logical that God would reveal to you the Old Testament, then the New Testament.

The most important thing I say is this: That no one can truly understand the Bible unless they are saved. By this, I mean that you can't understand God's Word unless you are coming to it with an open heart: 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

I look forward to your next argument as I know it will require much of me.

Good Luck.
Debate Round No. 2
Mr.Infidel

Pro

==REBUTTAL TO MY OPPONENT'S OPENING ARGUMENTS==

In this portion of teh debate, I am going to refute my opponent's opening arguments and show how they are false and out of context. I wish my opponent the best of luck as we begin round 3.

Isaiah 53

The 53rd chapter of Isaiah is the 4th and final servant song in the Book of Isaiah. Indeed, it is a very beautiful song. However, before we can apply Isaiah 53 to Jesus, we need to know the context.

Who is speaking?

In order to understand any chapter of the Bible, we need to know who is speaking. The immediate context of Isaiah 53 begins in the 13th verse of the 52nd chapter.

Isaiah 52:13-15, "Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exaltedand lifted up, and hee shall be very high. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!" so shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for what had not been told to them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed."

Ah, so now we see that the Gentile kings of the earth are speaking. In fact, they are so astounded at a particular event that they shut their mouths in amazment. "Who would have believed what we have heard" referrs to the salvation and regeneration of the Nation of Israel.

Who are the nations speaking about?

Now that we know that the world rulers are speaking, we must ask who they are speaking about. Isaiah tells us that it is "My servant" but who is "My servant"? In order to find out, let us look now at the surrounding chapters.
  1. Isaiah 49:3, "You are My servant, O Israel."
  2. 'Isaiah 49:3, "you are my servant, Israel.
  3. see also 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, and 48:20
So now we see that throughout the other servant songs, the context is Israel. Since the surrounding chapters are about Israel, it makes sense for this chapter to be discussing Israel as well.

3) He was despised and rejected of men, a man of pains and accustomed to sickness. As one from whom we would hide our faces, he was despised, and we had no regard for him.

The verse discribes Israel as universally dispised and rejected, which has been a historical theme for the Jewish people.

Indeed, this description cannot possibly referr to Jesus as the New Testament has him immensely popular (Matthew 4:25). "Large crowds" of people came far and wide to hear him speak. In fact, Mark records an account where he had to go out to sea in order to avoid him being overrun by the crowds! [1]


Prophecy 2: Psalm 35:11


The verse before it says "many evils befall the righteous, but Hashem saves him from them all."evils befall the righteous, but the Lord saves him from them all."

so, in light of all this, we see that it is plain that the psalm is NOT talking about a singular prophecy or event, but rather it is a praise to Hashem. [2]

Prophecy 3: Psalm 35:11

The Psalm was written while David was being chased around by Saul. Simply put, this Psalm is referring to him. [3]

===DEFENSE OF MY ARGUMENTS===

I will now defend my arguments as to why Jesus is not the messiah.

My opponent ignores almost all of my arguments, but asks a ton of pointless and irrelavent questions.

"If Judaism is clearly true, and cannot be wrong in any way, why are there so many converts to Christianity? Are they all wrong? If they are, then why is Christianity so convincing? What is it that they are seeing that I am not?"

This is a fallacy known as the argument of the majority. So what if Christianity is so popular? how does that make it right? Christianity is so convincing because the King James Per-Versions and other Per-Versions of the texts are mistranslated. This is why it is important to know Hebrew and know your Bible!

My opponent brought up more proof texts, which I do not need to respond to as per the rules that he may only bring up only 3 proof texts as it is very long to refute the texts.

Thank you.


References

[1] http://www.aish.com...;
[2] http://thejewishhome.org...;(page 9)
[3] Ibid.
Liquidus

Con

I thank my opponent for his concise rebuttal and his presentation of irrefutable evidence.

How can I argue with this? This is the Bible! I cannot argue against it! It seems I have met my match and must surrender, as this argument is strong.

However, my opponent has missed one small detail...

As you have seen, the bulk of my opponents argument is based on the world famous "Isaiah 53" prophecy.

I now claim to prove that my opponent has done two things:

1. Taken Isaiah 53 out of context and
2. Misunderstood the Passage

How can this be you ask? Allow me to show you:

Isaiah 53 is NOT talking about Israel, it is talking about JESUS!

First I must establish my "Ethos" as Aristotle called it, or simply put, credibility.

I will do this by showing that I am not the only one to see this, Matthew Henry, C. S. Lewis, Scoffield, and MANY others agree with me when I say that Jesus is the one being referred to by Isaiah 53. If you do not believe me, research it yourself.

My opponent used this verse:

"Isaiah 52:13-15", "Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and He shall be very high. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!" so shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for what had not been told to them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed."

This is the proper interpretation of this passage of scripture:

Isaiah 52:13-15
Here begins that wonderful, minute, and faithful description of the office, character, and glory
of the Messiah, which has struck conviction to many of the most hardened unbelievers. Christ
is Wisdom itself; in the work of our redemption there appeared the wisdom of God in a
mystery. Those that saw him, said, Surely never man looked so miserable: never was sorrow
like unto his sorrow. But God highly exalted him. That shall be discovered by the gospel of
Christ, which could never be told in any other way. And Christ having once shed his blood for
sinners, its power still continues. May all opposers see the wisdom of ceasing from their
opposition, and be made partakers of the blood of sprinkling, and the baptism of the Holy
Ghost; obeying him, and praising his salvation.

This is taken from Matthew Henry's Commentary of the Bible.

My opponent also made this statement:


3) He was despised and rejected of men, a man of pains and accustomed to sickness. As one from whom we would hide our faces, he was despised, and we had no regard for him.

This statement too supports my case for Jesus being the Messiah. Jesus was despised and rejected, a man who treated pains and helped the sick, the people of the time were so ashamed of their malpractice of religion that they hid their faces, the people of that time despised him and had no regard for him.

Next I should point out that these verses cannot depict a nation. It is contextually absurd to regard these verses in the fallacy that they regarded a nation. Notice how it describes in the first sentence "He was despised and rejected of men." This cannot be Israel. Men did not despise the nation, as a matter of fact, it was a prosperous time in Israel history. Next look at this portion of my opponents statement: a man of pains and accustomed to sickness. As one from whom we would hide our faces, he was despised, and we had no regard for him. Notice the words I highlighted. The object of this passage is referred to as a man, one, he, and him. Notice also that the phrase "accustomed to sickness" is used. Sickness can only be related to a living being. Nations cannot be sick, or at least not in the context of this passage.

Based on not only this, but the entire chapter of Isaiah 53, Jesus is the object of conversation.

Here is the remainder of Isaiah 53, so you can be the judge:




Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 
Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Isa 52:4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.
Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.


If you notice, Jesus is the topic of the entire Messianic prophecy.

Conclusion:

The topic of this debate is if Jesus was or was not the Messiah. I have now shown you not only that Jesus is the Messiah, but that to say otherwise would be a matter of opinion or therefore, interpretation. My opponent can also say that I am using an interpretation or opinionated response. My response is agreed upon by many Biblical scholars. It also seems more logical to agree on a literal interpretation of that passage beings as God would not try to hide His truths AND that if it were a metaphorical prophecy, it could be applied to nearly anything and is no longer specific. It is on these grounds that I have proven Jesus to be the Messiah of the Old Testament. To say otherwise would be a manipulation of clear scripture and denial of truth. And to say the least, I have provided evidence to suggest that Jesus is the Messiah and that to disagree would be opinion. Thus, the remainder of this argument would become a battle of opinions. It is on this basis that I reason that Jesus IS the Messiah predicted in the Old Testament.


Now then,

Con, it is your responsibility to provide another argument to support your idea. If you fail to provide a logical and reasonable passage of scripture that can support your claim, you cannot win this debate.

Con, I urge you to take your stand.

Good luck, I look forward to your rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 3
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Extend my arguments. My opponent has not refuted my arguments as to why Jesus is NOT the Messiah. Moreover, he has yet to defend his arguments that I refuted.

My opponent cites a few scholar's using the appeal to authority fallacy. To respond to this, I shall post the Artscroll commentary.




Isaiah 52:13 i.e. G-d's servant the people of Israel (Rashi)

52:15 Just as Israel had once been astonishgly degraded, so it will astonish the nations by its exaltedness when the time of redemption arrives.


53:1-3 this is the prophecy foretelling what the nations and their kings will exclaim when they witness Israel's rejuvenation. The nations will contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews (vv. 1-3) with their new realization of Israel's grandeur (vv 4-7).

53:5 we brought suffering upon Israel for our own selfish purposes; it was not, as we had claimed, that G-d was punishing Israel for its own evil behavior.


53:6 We sinned by inflicting punishment upon Israel. Such oppression is often described as "Hashem's punishment" (see 10:5, Habakkuk 1:12), for He decreed that it should happen (Abarbanel).


53:8 When Israel's exile is finally ended the nations will marvel that such a generation could have survived the expulsion from "the land of the living, i.e. Israel, that the nations had sinfully inflicted upon it.

53:9 Ordinary Jews chose to die like common criminals, rather than renounce their faith; and wealthy Jews were killed for no reason other than to enable their wicked conquerors to confiscate their riches (Radak).


53:10 That is, Israel. G-d replies to the nations that Israel's suffering was a punishment for its own sins; and when the people realize this and repent, they will be redeemed and rewarded.

53:11 Israel will teach the nations of G-d's righteousness.



http://messiahtruth.yuku.com...



In his essay entitled "Contra Celsus",church father Origen concludes that Isaiah 53 "bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of disperson and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained on account of disperson of the Jews among the numerous heathen nations."

Quoted on: http://www.aish.com...



On a final note

On a final note, I wish to quote this verse from the 53rd chapter of Isaiah. "God desired to oppress him and He afflicted him. If his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days, and God's purpose would succeed in his hand."

The Hebrew word "offspring" ALWAYS means a physical child. The word is zeta and it can only mean the actual seed or sperm from a man.

Source: Rabbi Tovia Singer "Who is the Suffering Servant." Lecture.

Conclusion

I have shown how my opponent's arguments are false and out of context. Moreover, my opponent did NOT obey the rules as he argued in the first round, did not use the translation I requested him to use, and failed to respond to any of my arguments.

For those reasons and more, it is obvious that you should vote pro.
Liquidus

Con

As the final round has met us, I must say, I have been very disappointed. I had high hopes for this debate and I have found that my opponent has beat the same fallacious ideas down into the dirt.

In my last rebuttal I should point out several things:

1. My opponent claims I have used scholars as a way of issuing a fallacy right after he made it the requirement that we use a biased translation of his choice, and therefore, he has issued a fallacy in hopes of deceiving the audience.

2. My opponent has asked for votes because I issued an argument in round one. I am new to this site and never knew what that term meant. I also have apologized, explaining my reason in the 2nd round.

3. My opponent has never attempted to refute my propositions in round one.

4. My opponent has made it a requirement that we only use his opinion as a fact (Deceptional Fact Fallacy).

It is on these grounds that I state that this debate has been a waste of time and more so a biased requirements debate.

However, I can only make one rebuttal for my opponents last argument:

My opponent has done just as I "prophesied" in the last round: Post his opinionated translation.

In the end I can only propose this. The proof is in the Bible, which I pointed out in my first argument that never was refuted (it was ignored). I can even boldly make the claim that I have proven the possibility of the entire Judaist claim to be a matter of interpretation.

By this I have fulfilled my requirements and can only ask for a vote in the favor of Con because I have in fact, provided sufficient evidence.

On a final note:

My opponent has claimed my arguments were false while having nothing to back up his claim but his opinion. He also summed your reasons for voting in his last statements. If your reasons for voting are based solely on:

1. A lie

2. Not submitting to his false propositions

3. A vague "more"

It is obvious that my opponent has admitted that his arguments cannot provide proof enough. And therefore, my opponent has admitted to not being able to fulfill the Burden Of Proof!

It is on that basis that I ask for a vote in my favor.

Thank you to all that have reviewed and kept up with this debate!

Peace be with you from God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit!
Debate Round No. 4
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Thanks for your feedback. Sorry a great debate is ruined by v bombers.
Posted by maninorange 5 years ago
maninorange
Votebomb summary:
Mr.VicePresident... 0-7
BlackVoid... 2-7
Man-is-good... 9-7
Renascor... 9-14
Mr. Infidel... 16-14

Con violated the agreement that the debate would begin in round 2. This alone, as a simple oversight would not justify awarding the point to Pro; however, the ensuing sarcasm (mild as it may be), objection based on the circumstances of conversion, and blatantly asserted inferiority of knowledge was.
=> +1 to Pro for conduct

I find that Liquidus had superior spelling and grammar skills.
=> +1 to Con for spelling and grammar

Althoguh Pro accepted the BoP, I do not believe he was required to refute every instance of Jesus fulfilling a prophecy. He merely needed to present a few instances of unfulfilled prophecies to topple the tower. Furthermore, Con's assertion that to deny a verse from the new testament means to deny the Bible, and the deny the Bible is to deny the old testament is trivially false.
=> +3 points to Pro for convincing arguments

I did not find that either party had superior sources. However, in accord with the vote-bomb summary above, I will put forth a bit of what I perceive to be justice and award Con the 2 points necessary for the final balance.
=> +2 points to Con for a counter-bomb
Posted by Liquidus 5 years ago
Liquidus
Dont humor yourself. Your a 15 year old boy who's username is after a flower. I didnt think I would.
Posted by lotus_flower 5 years ago
lotus_flower
@ Liquidus
if you were referring to me, then the reason my vote changed was that I thought Mr.Infidel was CON. Let's put it this way, you certainly didn't convert me. ;)
Posted by Liquidus 5 years ago
Liquidus
Thats interesting, voting one way because the opponent doesnt want to lose! Hahahaha this is better than a victory to me! Just knowing, my opponent was so scared that he would lose, that he made another vote in his favor! Thats worth it to me! I feel confident now!
Posted by lotus_flower 5 years ago
lotus_flower
@BlackVoid I voted for pro.
Posted by NewCreature 5 years ago
NewCreature
man is good, you need to stop nullifying other peoples votes just because their rfd does not satisfy you. you did it to me before and it was unwarranted.
Posted by Liquidus 5 years ago
Liquidus
This is very troubling. Most people voted in my favor, but others tried to vote just to balance it out. I am very displeased.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Nice votebomb. VP
Posted by logicrules 5 years ago
logicrules
OK...that-s just goofy. Logic is a discipline. You have just denied the basis of the US legal system. You establish you are young, stay in school. If you were correct we would all be quilty till proved innocent....bet we are presume innocent and the burden rests with the bringer of the affirmative.
12 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by maninorange 5 years ago
maninorange
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Total points awarded:43 
Reasons for voting decision: FAR too long to put here. I have placed it in the comments section instead.
Vote Placed by 000ike 5 years ago
000ike
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: counter vb
Vote Placed by Renascor 5 years ago
Renascor
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: I think a votebomb is necessary due to all the vague votebombs placed in the voting section now. Unfair voting. Con deserves to win.
Vote Placed by lotus_flower 5 years ago
lotus_flower
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was the most convincing; a lot of points made by PRO were not refuted by CON.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm countering Mr. Vice President's vote....his RFD is inadequate and fails to explain how Liqidus made better arguments, sentence structures and punctuation, sources, and was better in conduct...
Vote Placed by BlackVoid 5 years ago
BlackVoid
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Reasons for voting decision: Giving Pro 2 points to balance out lotus and VP's votebombs.
Vote Placed by Mr.VicePresident 5 years ago
Mr.VicePresident
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Just made more sence
Vote Placed by phantom 5 years ago
phantom
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Reasons for voting decision: Not enough space here. RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This debate was confusing as hell so ill make my vote less confusing. con was right in that pro was rying to get mercy points because con posted 1 argument in round 1, con made sound arguments about the primary passage in question and how it was misinterpreted by the pro, and pro had some misspelled words. could have been a lot better from both sides
Vote Placed by Buckethead31594 5 years ago
Buckethead31594
Mr.InfidelLiquidusTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Although Pro provided reasonable evidence to support that Jesus was not the messiah, there are still many scriptural gaps left unaccounted for. All in all, this debate boils down to faith: something that cannot be proven.