The Instigator
Ssunlimited
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
janetsanders733
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah

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after 2 votes the winner is...
janetsanders733
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/31/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,768 times Debate No: 39755
Debate Rounds (1)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Ssunlimited

Con

Jewish argument against Jesus being the Jewish Messiah:

The actual prophecies about the Jewish Messiah
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
*****In other words - this must all be accomplished in a human lifetime*****
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9).
Grabbed from Mark S, tweaked by myself (Aravah), Plushy Bear, What Jews Believe, MP

## # ##

The Jewish Messiah

No divine birth/divinity (the Jewish Messiah will NOT be divine. He will be human.) G-d said He does not become human: Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Hosea 11:9, Ezekiel 28:2, Numbers 23:19

No performing Miracles " the Jewish Messiah will NOT perform miracles but will accomplish them

Taking on the sins of others: no one can take on the sins of others: Deuteronomy 24:16, Exodus 32:30-35, Ezekiel 18:1-4, 20-24; 26-27

No breaking of the Sabbath " the Jewish Messiah will be observant.

No being a Sacrifice/No rising from the dead: G-d rejects human sacrifice and blood sacrifice is NOT an absolute requirement for the absolution of sin " Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6, Psalm 106:37-38, Ezekiel 16:20, Leviticus 5:11-13, Jonah 3:10, Leviticus 17, Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 16:47, Numbers 31:50, Isaiah 6:6-7, Jeremiah 7:22-23, Psalm 51:16-17. There will be no rising from the dead until the Messianic Age. The Jewish Messiah won"t be a sacrifice that has to rise from the dead.

No prophecies Unfilled " the Jewish Messiah will accomplish ALL the prophecies in one lifetime.

Proper lineage, the Jewish Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17, Jeremiah 22:18, 30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel

No communion " the "last supper" " No Jew would ever call upon followers and fellow Jews to even symbolically consume blood and flesh. (Leviticus 17)

The Jewish Messiah will NOT be worshiped " the eternal covenant between G-d and Jews is that Jews will worship G-d and only G-d and G-d does not become a man. Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, 1 Samuel 15:29, Job 9:32-33, Ezekiel 28:9, Hosea 4:15, Malachi 3:6
janetsanders733

Pro

First off, most of these verses are not prophecies concering Christ. Some are and Jesus fulfilled them all, below is a list.

Taking on the sins of others: no one can take on the sins of others: Deuteronomy 24:16, Exodus 32:30-35, Ezekiel 18:1-4, 20-24; 26-27

Deuteronmy 24:16 has nothing to do with the messiah, it is talkinng about the sins of family members. Exodus 32: 30-35 God was talking to Moses about the Sin of the Israelites. In fact he tells foreshadows Christ by saying that he would send 4 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

Ezekial 18:1-4 Is talking about God wanting people to turn from their sin and believe in him. It is not so much a prophecy about Christ. Although Christ did say turn and live in his parable of the vineyard.
20-24, 26-27. Look at response for Deuteronmy 24:16.

"No breaking of the Sabbath " the Jewish Messiah will be observant." He did observe the sabbath and kept it, please cite in the Old Testamanet where it says the Jewish Messiah can not break the sabbath.

No being a Sacrifice/No rising from the dead: G-d rejects human sacrifice and blood sacrifice is NOT an absolute requirement for the absolution of sin " Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6, Psalm 106:37-38, Ezekiel 16:20, Leviticus 5:11-13, Jonah 3:10, Leviticus 17, Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 16:47, Numbers 31:50, Isaiah 6:6-7, Jeremiah 7:22-23, Psalm 51:16-17. There will be no rising from the dead until the Messianic Age. The Jewish Messiah won"t be a sacrifice that has to rise from the dead.

You have to read the context of these passages. Again none of these have anything to do with prophecy concerning the Messiah.

Deuteronomy 12:30-31 is talking about Idoloatry, it is saying do not woship the Lord your God like the pagans and other people do. They burn their sons and daughters as an offering to their Gods. Jesus was God's sacrifice to humanity, not Humanities sacrifice to God.
Jeremiah 19: 4-6, Talking about how God would punish the Israelites for the Sin, has nothing to do with prophecy about Messiah.

Psalms 106: 37-38, Talks about Idolatry not the Messiah.
Ezekiel 16-20, I already talked about it.
Leviticus 5:11-30 Has to do with the Old covenant/ sacrifice, which is a blood sacrifice.
Jonah 3: 10 Has to do with repetenace and belief, not Messiah.
I am running out of room but the rest are plenty self explanatory, none of these have to do with prophecy concerning the Messiah. These have to do with the sin of Israel.
"No prophecies Unfilled " the Jewish Messiah will accomplish ALL the prophecies in one lifetime.

Care to elaborate, you cited no scirpture to support this."

"Proper lineage, the Jewish Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17, Jeremiah 22:18, 30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel."

Jeconiah, also called “Jehoiachin” (1 Chronicles 3:16, NIV) and “Coniah” (Jeremiah 22:24), was a king of Judah who was deported as part of theBabylonian captivity(Esther 2:6;1 Chronicles 3:17). He is also listed in the genealogy of Jesus, in Joseph’s family line (Matthew 1:12).

The curse of Jeconiah is found in Jeremiah 22. First, the LORD likens the king to a signet ring on God’s hand—a ring that God will pull off (verse 24). Then, God pronounces a curse: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah” (verse 30).

The problem is that the curse of Jeconiah seems to invalidate Jesus’ right to the throne of David. TheDavidic Covenantpromised that the Messiah, the “Son of David,” would reign forever on Jerusalem’s throne (1 Chronicles 17:11-14). If Jesus is a descendant of Jeconiah, then how can He be the Messiah, since the curse bars any of Jeconiah’s descendants from assuming David’s throne?

There are three possible solutions to this difficulty. First, the “offspring” of Jeconiah mentioned in the curse could be a limited reference to the king’s own children—hisimmediateoffspring, in other words. On a related note, the phrase “in his lifetime” could apply to the entire verse. The curse would only be in force while the king lived. This is exactly what happened, as Jeconiah was not successful as a king (he only reigned for three months before he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar’s forces), and none of his sons (he had seven of them,1 Chronicles 3:17) reigned over Judah.

A second solution concerns thevirgin birth. Jesus only had one human parent, Mary. His mother was of David’s line, but not through Jeconiah (Luke 3:31). Joseph was Jesus’ legal father, but not His physical one. Thus, Jesus was of royal blood through Mary, but the curse of Jeconiah stopped with Joseph and was not passed on to Jesus.

A third possible solution is that God reversed the curse on Jeconiah’s family. This is hinted at by the prophet Haggai, who told Zerubbabel, Jeconiah’s grandson, that God would make him a “signet ring” on God’s hand (Haggai 2:23). Zerubbabel was blessed by God as the governor of Judea, and he prospered in that role when the Jewish exiles returned to Jerusalem. The “signet ring” imagery of Jeconiah’s curse is repeated in Zerubbabel’s blessing, which must be more than coincidence. Several rabbinic sources teach that Jeconiah repented in Babylon and that God forgave him and lifted the curse.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org...


No communion " the "last supper" " No Jew would ever call upon followers and fellow Jews to even symbolically consume blood and flesh. (Leviticus 17)

Says nothing about symbollicaly consuming blood. It talks about literal drinking/eating of blood. Has nothing to do with communion or last supper.

The Jewish Messiah will NOT be worshiped " the eternal covenant between G-d and Jews is that Jews will worship G-d and only G-d and G-d does not become a man. Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, 1 Samuel 15:29, Job 9:32-33, Ezekiel 28:9, Hosea 4:15, Malachi 3:6" None of these say God did not become a human. They all have to do with God not being a sinner like man. They however do not say God became a man. You have toread these things in Context.

Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
Galatians 4:4
2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-6
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3
Genesis 22:18
Matthew 1:1
Romans 9:5
5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19
Genesis 21:12
Luke 3:34
6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:14
8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7
Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:3
9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
Daniel 2:44
Luke 1:33
Hebrews 1:8-12
10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3
John 1:11
John 7:5
15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10
Matthew 13:10-15,34-35
21 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
22 Messiah would be a priest after the order ofMelchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
23 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9
Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-11
24 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
25 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13
Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-16
26 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
27 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
28 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
29 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
30 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4
John 15:24-25
31 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-28
32 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
John 19:28-30
33 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10
John 20:25-27
34 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
35 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-36
36 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20
John 19:33-36
37 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
38 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
39 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
40 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
41 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
Psalm 49:15
Matthew 28:2-7
Acts 2:22-32
42 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
Luke 24:51
43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1
Mark 16:19
Matthew 22:44
44 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8
Debate Round No. 1
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by xXCryptoXx 3 years ago
xXCryptoXx
I'm very interested in seeing a good response to this.
Posted by UnopinionatedMoron 3 years ago
UnopinionatedMoron
*yawn*
Posted by TrueScotsman 3 years ago
TrueScotsman
Seriously a one round debate? Good luck with that one.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by WilliamofOckham 3 years ago
WilliamofOckham
Ssunlimitedjanetsanders733Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate, being only one round, gave pro a big advantage to begin with. With that, pro's arguments were very comprehensive, not only pointing out the irrelevancy of con's arguments, but also presenting a very detailed chart showing the characteristics of the Messiah and how Jesus fulfilled them, easily gave pro the win in this debate.
Vote Placed by TrueScotsman 3 years ago
TrueScotsman
Ssunlimitedjanetsanders733Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD - Pro probably had the upper hand as there was only 1 round of debating, but even still he successfully addressed Con's points raising an even more comprehensive argument for his own contention. Sources go to Pro as he correlated the fulfilled verses between the OT and NT in the table.