Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews
Debate Rounds (5)
Resolved that Jesus, Yeshua of Nazareth, Yeshua bin Yosef, is the Masiach, Messiah.
I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph is the Messiah. He fuffils at least 72 of the Old Testament Prophecies and claimed he was the Messsiah in truth. I will unpack some of the prophecies in the later rounds.
First round: acceptance and opening statements
Good luck my friend
I wish to thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate.מָשִׁיחַ
What is a Messiah?
In Hebrew, the word Messiah is מָשִׁיחַ and it appears 39 times in the Tanakh (Old Testament), in eleven distinct expression; of these, 34 occurrences are nouns ("a messiah") and five are adjectives ("smeared with oil"). 
Who is called a "messiah"?
Example 1: King Saul
הִנֵּה֩ הַיּ֨וֹם הַזֶּ֜ה רָא֣וּ עֵינֶ֗יךָ אֵ֣ת אֲשֶׁר־נְתָֽנְךָ֩ יְיָ֨ ׀ הַיּ֤וֹם ׀ בְּיָדִי֙ בַּמְּעָרָ֔ה וְאָמַ֥ר לַֽהֲרָגֲךָ֖ וַתָּ֣חָס עָלֶ֑יךָ וָֽאֹמַ֗ר לֹֽא־אֶשְׁלַ֤ח יָדִי֙ בַּֽאדֹנִ֔י כִּֽי־מְשִׁ֥יחַ יְיָ֖ הֽוּא׃
Look, today you have seen with your own eyes how Adonai gave you into my power in the cave, and (someone) said to kill you, but (I) took pity on you and I said, “I will not stretch my hand out against my master because he is Adonai’s messiah.” 
Example 2: King Koresh (Cyrus)
כֹּֽה־אָמַ֣ר יְיָ֘ לִמְשִׁיחוֹ֘ לְכ֣וֹרֶשׁ ׀ אֲשֶׁר־הֶחֱזַ֣קְתִּי בִֽימִינ֗וֹ לְרַד־לְפָנָיו֙ גּוֹיִ֔ם וּמָתְנֵ֥י מְלָכִ֖ים אֲפַתֵּ֑חַ לִפְתֹּ֤חַ לְפָנָיו֙ דְּלָתַ֔יִם וּשְׁעָרִ֖ים לֹ֥א יִסָּגֵֽרוּ׃
So said Adonai to His messiah, concerning Koresh (Cyrus) — whom I seized by his right hand to flatten nations before him, and I will loosen kings’ loins — to open portals before him and gates will not be closed....
Example 3: Prophets/Messiahs in the Plural
אַֽל־תִּגְּע֥וּ בִמְשִׁיחָ֑י וְ֝לִנְבִיאַי אַל־תָּרֵֽעוּ׃
Don’t touch My messiahs or harm My prophets! 
Example 4: The Kohanim (Priests)
וְלָקַ֛ח הַכֹּהֵ֥ן הַמָּשִׁ֖יחַ מִדַּ֣ם הַפָּ֑ר וְהֵבִ֥יא אֹת֖וֹ אֶל־אֹ֥הֶל מוֹעֵֽד׃
....then the oil-smeared kohén is to take some of the bull’s blood and bring it into the Ohel Mo'éd....
Special note: This is the ONLY example in the entire Tanach where the word "Messiah" is followed by the definite article The"
Who is "THE" Messiah?
As we have seen in the above definitions, a messiah is a ruler/leader who is anointed with oil. When we talk about THE Messiah, we generally refer to the Messiah that will come at the end of days. Does Jesus fit the bill?
The Bible prophecies that the Messiah will, among other things, do the following:
- Rebuild the temple 
- Gather the exiled Jews back to Eretz Yisroel 
- Establish world peace 
- Universal knowledge of G-d 
- Bring about the resurrection of the dead. 
The Messiah must be a descendant of David and Solomon. Because Jesus was born of a virgin, Jesus had no biological father. The Jewish tribe is passed from father-son; therefore, Jesus was NOT a biological descendant of David and Solomon. 
My opponent claims that Jesus fulfilled over 72 prophecies and that he will expand in coming rounds. I ask that you keep it to 5 prophecies so I can have adequate time and space to respond.
2. First Samuel 24:10(11)
3. Isaiah 45:1
4. Psalm 105:15
5. Leviticus 4:5
6. Ezekiel 37:26-28
7. Isaiah 11:12
8. Ibid 2:4
9. Ibid 11:9
10. Daniel 12:2
11. See http://www.beingjewish.com... and https://carm.org...
Thank you for this debate my friend.
The prophecy I will deal with here is that he (The Messiah) would be pierced without breaking a bone. Psalm 34:20 says this in the NIV: He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.
This prophecy was literally fuffilled in Yeshua ben Yosef.
On the cross of calvary hill, he was nailed by his wrists and feet, and his bones were not broken.
Then, after he died something else happened. A Roman soldier stabbed his side with a spear, and blood and water poured out forthwith. John 19.
Zechariah says they will look on him who they pierced.
Undoubtedly, this prophecy refers to Yeshua, who was pierced by nails, and stabbed with a spear, and his bones were not broken.
Thanks for the debate thus far
Thank you for your speedy response.He guards all his bones; not one of them was broken
Does Psalm 34:20 Predict Jesus will be the Messiah?
Psalm 34:20 [21 in Jewish counting] states the following:
"He guards all his bones; not one of them was broken."
The question is: What is the Psalmist referring to? Let's look at the previous verse.
"Many evils befall the righteous, but the Lord saves him from them all."
The context of Psalm 34 is a song of Praise. There are no prophecies in Psalm 34. Psalm 34:1 states Of David, when he disguised his sanity before Abimelech, whereupon he drove him out and he departed.
Rashi expands on the first verse:
when he disguised his sanity: as the matter that is stated (in I Sam. 21:14): “And he changed his speech before their eyes, etc. And he scribbled upon the doors of the gates.” That he disguised his speech and his sanity and feigned madness and let his saliva run down upon his beard. before Abimelech: All Philistine kings were called thus, and all Egyptian kings [were called] Pharaoh. Although his name was Achish, he was called Abimelech. The Midrash Aggadah explains that he was as righteous as Abimelech (mentioned in the Torah in relation to Sarah), for he did not want to kill him although his men said to him, “Is this not David, the king of the land?” As is stated in Midrash Psalms (34:1).
before Abimelech: All Philistine kings were called thus, and all Egyptian kings [were called] Pharaoh. Although his name was Achish, he was called Abimelech. The Midrash Aggadah explains that he was as righteous as Abimelech (mentioned in the Torah in relation to Sarah), for he did not want to kill him although his men said to him, “Is this not David, the king of the land?” As is stated in Midrash Psalms (34:1).
The Psalm continues in verse 2:
"I will bless the Lord at all times; His praise is always in my mouth."
From the start, we see that the context of this Psalm is a Psalm that is blessing G-d.
Psalm 34 is not talking about a partiular individual, nor is it a messianic prophecy; rather, this Psalm is praising G-d for taking care of the righteous.
Zechariah: A Peircing Look at a False Claim
"And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon." - Zechariah 12:111
The chapter in Zechariah in which this verse is found, speaks of the siege of Jerusalem. The prophet describes how the nations will besiege Jerusalem, but they will not succeed. The prophet describes how a Jewish contingent in the besieging army will do battle against the nations that have come to besiege Jerusalem. The Jewish warriors will succeed, and the nations besieging Jerusalem will be destroyed. It is in the context of this battle that there will be a great mourning for the “one who was pierced.”
Conclusion: Zechariah is a messianic prophecy, but has nothing to do with a crucifixion and was not fulfilled by Jesus.
Over to pro.
Shalom and thank you for a great debate so far :).
another important prophecy that Yeshua ben Yosef, Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph fuffiled as the Masiach is in Numbers 21:9 of the sacred Torah.
"So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live."
This prophecy pertains directly to Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamasiach ben Yosef of Nazareth, Melek (King) of Ysrael.
Christ said in John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.
He also said that "I when I am lifted up from the earth shall draw all men to myself."
He has fufilled this prophecy by being lifted up on the cross of calvary. Through it, he made men live. The bronze snake is a prophecy pertaining directly to Christ.
Thank you for the debate thus far
My opponent brings up a the copper serpent that Moshe made in the desert; however, my opponent seems to forget that it was destroyed by Hezekiah because people were worshipping it as an idol.
Looking at your arguments on Psalm 34:20 and referring to the book of Zechariah...
is the siege of jerusalem the one in 70AD?
and, in Zechariah we see the mount of olives will be split, upon the return of the messiah.
We see Israel's restoration.
The Masiach or Messiah shall restore Israel, and the piercing part...
How does that not refer to a crucifixion?
Psalm 22 of David says that "they have pierced my hands on my feet." clearly a reference to crucifxion.
I hope I have refuted as best as I can as I am still learning on debates.
Thank you to my friend for this debate and shalom
Once again, thank you for your reply.
I'd like to begin by responding to Psalm 22. The KJV states:
"For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers have encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet."
What is going on here? At first glance, it may appear that this could be a prophecy concerning the messiah. However, the Hebrew states the following:
"I compass my soul until morning. Lik a lion -- so He breaks all my bones, from day until night You make an end of me." - Isaiiah 38:13
"Behold, a people rise like a lioness, and as a lion it fits itself, it will not lie down until it devours the prey, and drinks the blood of the slain." - Numbers 23:24
Thus, the correct translation is as follows:
"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have enclosed me; like a lion, [they are at] my hands and my feet.
David Ha'Melech uses this theme throughout the Psalms - comparing his enemies to wild animals about to pounce on him.
My opponent has yet to respond to a single argument that I have made in my opening round as to why Jesus is not the Jewish messiah.
Exzample 1 from round 1 King Saul was not a Messiah of God. The Messiah would be Prophet, Priest and King, and a suffering servant (Isaiah 52-53)
Exzample 2 from round 1
King Cyrus was not the messiah, it (the messianic prophecy) was not fufilled in him
Qualifications and refutal of what a messiah is
Let's see the Messiah will insitute world peace and come in the last days. All is correct there.
However, Jesus was fully divine and fully human and thus fufilled all these and will come again.
Thanks for the debate, shalom
Thank you for the fun debate. In my closing round, I wish to respond to the argument that the messiah would be a prophet, priest and king. It is impossible for anyone to be both a priest and a king. The kings came from the tribe of Yehudah (Judah) and the priests came from the tribe of Levi. The Kohanim were Levi'im who were direct descendants of Aaron the Kohen Gadol.
Also, to discount everything because "Jesus will come again" is a non-sequitor. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that the Messiah will come again.
Please vote con!
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