The Instigator
nadlor1
Pro (for)
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The Contender
metalfingerz
Con (against)
Tied
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Jesus is the archangel Micheal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 653 times Debate No: 28486
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
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nadlor1

Pro

First round is acceptance.
metalfingerz

Con

I cordially accept.
Debate Round No. 1
nadlor1

Pro

The Key Is in the Name

First, let's consider the meaning of some words and names. In the Greek New Testament, the word "angel" means "messenger," and "arch" means "chief, principle, greatest, or highest." So "archangel" simply means "highest or greatest messenger." The Hebrew name "Michael," found in the Old Testament, means "who is like God" or sometimes it forms a question: "Who is like God?" So the title Michael the archangel can be translated as "The greatest messenger who is God." Whether this name is a question, statement, or a challenge will be clear by further study. One angel did profess to be like God. That covering cherub fallen from the heavenly courts is Lucifer, who became the devil or Satan, by claiming to "be like the most High" Isaiah 14:14. In Revelation 12:7, Satan is opposed by "Michael and his angels" and is cast out of heaven.

The Angel of the Lord

The phrase "angel of the Lord" is found 68 times in Scripture. Sometimes it applies to Gabriel who appeared to Daniel, Zacharias, and Mary. But Gabriel is called "an" angel of the Lord (Luke 1:11). He is not referred to as "the" angel of the Lord. Neither is he ever called the archangel. (And while we"re on the subject, the popular angel Raphael does not appear anywhere in Scripture.) Gabriel is probably one of the two covering cherubs who flank the throne of God. Remember that he said to Zacharias, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God," (Luke 1:19). Lucifer once held the other position before his fall (Ezekiel 28:14). If the highest rank held by an angel is that of the covering cherubs by the throne of God then who and what is an archangel? And who is this mighty individual identified as "the angel of the Lord" who performs such prominent roles in the redemption of man?

God the Father created all things through Jesus (Hebrews 1:2; Ephesians 3:9). It is not implausible to assume that if Christ came to earth and became a man in His battle against Satan to save human beings, He might also have in some way identified with the angels to protect them from Satan's evil influence in heaven. In fact, there are several references in Scripture to a mysterious being identified as "the angel of the Lord" before Christ's earthly incarnation. Yet each time He is mentioned, there are clues to His identity. Let's review them briefly in the order in which they appear.

Hagar

After Hagar the handmaid of Abraham bore Ishmael, she and the barren Sarah could no longer coexist peacefully. Sarah dealt severely with her now haughty hand- maid until Hagar fled into the desert. "And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness" (Genesis 16:7). The angel told Hagar to go back and submit to Sarah and promised that her son, Ishmael, would be the father of a great nation. When the "angel" disappeared, Hagar "called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me" (verse 13). It appears Hagar recognized that the "angel of the Lord" who had spoken to her was really God. But keep reading; it gets clearer!

Abraham

God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac on mount Moriah. Just as he was about to plunge the dagger into his son of promise, the angel of the Lord stopped him. "And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, 'Abraham, Abraham:' and he said, 'Here am I.' And he said, 'Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me'" (Genesis 22:11, 12).

It is clear that Abraham was offering his son to God and not to a mere angel. "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, 'By myself have I sworn,' saith the Lord, 'for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, " because thou hast obeyed my voice'" (Genesis 22:15-18). In recounting this experience of Abraham in Acts 3:25, Peter also identifies this "angel of the Lord" who made a covenant with the Patriarch as God.

Jacob

While fleeing from his angry brother Esau, Jacob had a dream in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham to him. After receiving assurance that God would be with him and bring him back safely to his home in Canaan, Jacob vowed to return to God a tithe of all his increase. He set up the stone he had been using for a pil- low and anointed it with oil to solemnize his vow. Then he named the place Beth-el, or house of God, since God had appeared to him there.

Twenty years later, Jacob was on his way back home, not a penniless fugitive, but a wealthy man. God decided to remind Jacob who had really brought him success. Here's how Jacob recounted the story: "And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I" (Genesis 31:11). In verse 13, this "angel of God" identifies Himself: "I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me."

Then, when Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being (Genesis 32:22-32), he was given a new name and blessed him. Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (verse 30). In the New Testament, Jesus is the one who blesses His people and gives them a new name (Matthew 5:3-12; Revelation 2:17). As you can see, it is becoming increas- ingly clear that the angel of the Lord is Jesus Himself.

When Jacob was on his deathbed blessing Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he used the terms "angel" and "God" interchangeably. "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" (Genesis 48:15, 16).

The Scriptures are very clear there is neither a redeemer nor savior but God. "I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior; Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer" (Isaiah 43:11, 14). Once again we see that the angel who redeemed Jacob is another name for our Redeemer, Jesus!

Moses

Moses saw a burning bush that was not consumed. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (Exodus 3:2). Verse 4 identifies this angel: "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush." And in verse 6 He identifies Himself again. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." The angel of the Lord identifies Himself as God!

In his last sermon before he was stoned to death, Stephen agrees with the Exodus account. "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Acts 7:30-32).

Michael the Prince

Michael is mentioned more in Daniel than in any other book in Scripture. (See Daniel 10:13; 10:21; 12:1.) In all three references, He is called a prince"your prince and the great prince. Isaiah's prophecy about the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6) reveals oneof the key names he says that would apply to the Messiah is "Prince of Peace."

There is another verse in Daniel 8:25 where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned. Again, the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. "Prince of princes" is actually the same term that is translated "prince of the host" in verse 11. This is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25).
metalfingerz

Con

While I both respect and am intrigued by your argument, I have to say this seems farfetched. You seem to be making the Bible into Fight Club, and I don't see why the authors of such a book (intended to teach the word of the Lord) would intentionally go out of their ways to be cryptic and confusing in a text that is meant to be understood by even the simplest of men. Besides, such an argument is pointless anyway, as any sane/learned individual understands that science clearly has more merit than religion, rendering the Bible and this argument utterly useless. I was excited to see what you had to say, but this seems like a crazy conspiracy theory devised for no clear purpose.
Debate Round No. 2
nadlor1

Pro

Well I believe the bible is true.I mean all I can say is that if there wasn't a God...then why is there right from wrong in the universe.I have learned many things from the bible.If I may be irrational then let it be but I will say I study the Bible.I don't see the mainstream beliefs as always correct.If I have been questioned by somebody I answer by the truth I know.If I am wrong then prove it.I question not only religions but God himself.So henceforth let this debate be proven wrong by not opinions but truth.If you find fault then let it be tested and not judge.
metalfingerz

Con

metalfingerz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
metalfingerz

Con

metalfingerz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by nadlor1 4 years ago
nadlor1
Instead of saying my topic is wrong try to prove it.And yes i agree the bible is simple.Thats why I'm showing not a theory but what the bible shows.
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