Jesus isnt God he's The begotten Son of God
Debate Rounds (5)
Thank you for taking the time out to view my argument and I pray that you have a Blessed day :)
Isa 44:24 tells us that Yahweh made all things, stretched out the heavens alone, spread out the earth by himself; yet Scripture reveals the Father as creator (Isa 64:8), and the Son (Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 8-10), and the Holy Spirit (Ps 104:30; Job 26:13; 33:4) Combine this with the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:16 and the trinitarian has an airtight case. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one God with the Father, then God the Father had help and did not create all things alone, by himself, as he said in Isaiah 44:24. If the trinity is true, harmony comes to the texts.
At Isaiah 43:11 Yahweh declares, "I myself am Yahweh and besides me there is no Saviour." (WEB) Scripture tells us palinly that Jesus is the Saviour. (Matt 1:21; Lu 2:11; Acts 4:12; 2 Tim 1:10; Tit 1:4; 2 Pet 1:11, etc) So is Jesus Yahweh himself, or is he another Saviour besides Yahweh? Which is it? If he is Yahweh, then he must be one Yahweh with the Father. For there is only one Yahweh. (Deu 6:4) If he is not Yahweh, then he is another Saviour besides Yahweh, and Yahweh was lying when he claimed to be the only Saviour. Which is it? Acts 4:12 says of Jesus, that "there is no salvation in anyone else." Now, if Jesus is not God, then there can be no salvation in God, for there is no salvation in anyone else but Jesus.
2 Corinthians 12:8-9 "In this behalf I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me; and yet he really said to me: "My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me." Here Paul prayed to the "Lord" Jesus three times and Jesus answered his prayer by saying: "My... power is being make perfect in weakness." Paul concluded by admitting that he would "rather boast ...that the power of (who?) the Christ may like a tent remain over me." So, here again, we see an example of a Christian in the Bible praying to the Lord Jesus with Jesus responding to the prayer with His "underserved kindness" and "power." (NWT) We are told about Jesus hearing our prayers again in 1 John 5:12-16 and Acts 7:59. This would not be so if Jesus were not God.
I must at this point mention the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar. This rule states that when there are 2 nouns that are both singular which describe a person, and these nouns are connected by the word "and," the first noun having the article, the second noun not having the article then they refer to the SAME PERSON. (*Note that the nouns cannot be personal names*) There is absolutely no exception to this rule in all of the Greek New Testament. Having stated this rule I find it necessary to present two verses of scripture that unequivocally qualify Jesus as both God and Savior.
Titus 2:13 - while we wait for the blessed hope"the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (NIV)
2Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: (NIV)
Notice in both verses the noun "God" (theou) has the article (tou) and is connected to the second noun "Savior" (soteros) which does not have an article, by the word "and" (kai). Thus "God and Savior" both refer to the Person of Jesus. Grammatically this is irrefutable. So not only is Jesus Savior, He is God! So I think I have made a good case that Jesus is definitely God, and since there is only one God, then the Father and the Son must be one God. Now, onto the Holy Spirit.
That the Holy Spirit is God and Lord is clearly stated in the Scriptures. (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor 3:17) The Holy Spirit has the same attributes of Deity as the Father and the Son:
The Father is eternal (Ps 90:2), and the Son (Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2), and the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14)
The Father is omniscient (1 John 3:20), and the Son (John 16:30; 21:17), and the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:10-11)
The Father is omnipresent (1 Kings 8:27; Ps 137:8-18), and the Son (Matt 18:20), and the Holy Spirit. (Ps 137:7)
The Father is omnipotent (Dan 4:35), and the Son (Matt 28:18; John 17:10), and the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 40:12-15)
Trinity: a tripersonal being (one being with three distinct minds)
God: the divine nature, namely, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, all-loving, etc.
God: definition 2: any person who possesses divine nature. [Illustration: a scoop of flour is not the whole bag of flour, just as God the Son is not the entire Trinity, and yet, the scoop of flour is by nature flour, just like the whole bag of flour, and so to, God the Son is still by nature God, just like the entire trinity. He is part of the being that has that nature]
Isaiah 46:9 says there is no one like God, but Jesus is so much like Him that if you see Him you see the Father. (John 14:9) Jesus was worshiped even though worship only belongs to God. (Heb 1:6; Matt 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 28:9, 17; John 9:38)
Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh). When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.
In Joel 2:32a it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved. This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13. Both apostles are clearly referring to Jesus as the LORD.
In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvelous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh). John tells us in John 12:40-41 that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.
In Isaiah 44:6, the LORD (Yahweh) refers to himself as "the First and the Last". In Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus similarly refers to himself as "the Alpha and the Omega" and "the First and the Last".
I look forward to seeing how you will show this evidence is not valid. You may try, but I'm sure you will fail, because the Trinity is so well established in the Bible, and this entails that Jesus Christ is God. I have proven Jesus is God in the context of the Trinity. Let me see how my opponent responds.
Thiest_1998 forfeited this round.
Also if Jesus is God why didn't he tell people to worship him.
Now, to explain Thomas confession of faith where he called Jesus "my God" in John 20:28, you went to John 20:31, but John 20:31 is not an explanation of Thomas' statement in John 20:28. Rather, John 20:31 is an explanation of the miracles (signs) that Jesus performed. John 20:30-31 says: "Jesus performed many other signs (miracles) in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." So all this is saying, is that Jesus did many signs (miracles) that are not recorded in the book of John, but these miracles are recorded in this book, are recorded to show that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ (Messiah). So this is not trying to say that Thomas called him "my God" to show that he was the Son of God. Thomas called him "my God" because he was his God, Just as you would agree that Thomas called him "my Lord" because he was his Lord.
If Thomas was wrong, and Jesus was not his God, Jesus would have rebuked Thomas for blasphemy; but Jesus accepted it, and pronounced a blessing on such a confession of faith in him as my Lord and my God. In fact, the term "my God" that is used in John 20:28 has one, and only one consistent meaning throughout the rest of the entire Bible. It always, without exception, refers to the True God; so why should we change the meaning of "my God" in John 20:28 to fit your theology?
You are making the false assumption that if Jesus is the Son of God, that he cannot also be God. But that's all this is, your assumption. I accept all of what the Bible says. The Bible calls him both God, and the Son, just like in Isaiah 9:6 he is called a son, a child, and yet he is called mighty God, and eternal Father. I believe this by faith. I don't reject something just because it might not be easy to understand how its possible. I don't understand how God hears millions of prays at the same time without getting confused, but I trust that God is able to do it. Jesus said he would resurrect himself from the dead in John 2:19-22. How does a dead man raise himself? Yet, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples believed him, and so do I.
You said in your video on YouTube that you don't see how its possible or even logical for Jesus to be both God and the Son of God at the same time. So, think about what you are saying: if you can't comprehend how it's possible, therefore, its not true. Is truth determined by your ability to comprehend? Scientists can't fully comprehend how the human brain works, and neither do you, but surely you don't think that the brain doesn't exist! So how could you say that a trinity cannot exist just because you don't comprehend how it's possible? Many things that are not logical to many people turn out to be true. It's not logical to many people that a loving God would allow so much suffering on this earth, but that doesn't make it true. Many people think its irrational that a God who is all-powerful and wants us to know him would not give us better evidence than a 2000 year old book! They think God would write his name among the starts, or part the Red Sea once a year, or give us some scientifically verified resurrections today so that we would know he is real. Yet, the situation is what it is, and none of this stops us from believing the Bible, does it? Our minds can't even comprehend the concept of not having a beginning, yet Psalm 90:2 tells us God has no beginning. Amazing, while you claim Jesus was created, Hebrews 7:3 tells us that Jesus is without beginning of days or end of life. So my claim is that if many things in the Bible which seem illogical to many people out there are nevertheless true, and you don't say they are false just because many people think they are irrational, then why should the rest of us reject the belief that Jesus is God just because it seems irrational to you?
It seems not only irrational, but cruel to some people, that God would command the slaughter of women and children, even little babies (1 Sam 15:3), or kill a man just for picking up sticks on a certain day (Num 15:32-36), or command a man to kill his own Son (Gen 22:1-2). Yet, as irrational as these things seem to some people, the Bible records all these things as facts. So if Jesus being both God, and the Son of God seems irrational to you, that doesn't make it false. You are just one out of many, many, many other people out there who think that some of the teachings in the Bible don't make sense to them, and so you either reject the Bible, or re-interpret what it says to fit the theology that suits you. I am a son of man, yet, I am also man (that is, human); similarly, Jesus being the Son of God, is also God, inasmuch as he has the same exact nature as God the Father.
The Greek word for "onlybegotten" at John 3:16 is monogenes, which means "only one of a kind." It has nothing to do with being created; its simply saying that as the God-man, and second divine person, Jesus is unique. ""The translation "only-begotten" is inferior to "unique." It was thought that the term came from monoV (monos), meaning "only" and gennaw (gennao), meaning "begotten." However, further research has determined that the term is derived not from gennaw but from genos), meaning "kind" or "type." Hence the better translation, "unique" or "one of a kind."" See Louw and Nida, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains (1988) p. 591; Newman and Nida, A Translator"s Handbook on the Gospel of John, 1980, p. 24; and Moulton and Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1930, pp. 416-417.
At Hebrews 11:17, Isaac is called Abraham"s "only-begotten son." Since Isaac was not the only son born to Abraham23. , it is clear from the context of Hebrews 11 that Isaac is called Abraham"s "only-begotten" in the sense of his uniqueness as God"s covenant purposes were to be carried out through Isaac and his descendants. In the same way, Jesus is called the "only-begotten" Son of God in the sense of His uniqueness as the second person of the Triune God. The New Englishman"s Greek Concordance and Lexicon provides the following meaning for monogenese: ""only-begotten, unique, one of its special kind." (p.579)
So only-begotten doesn't prove Jesus is created. Hebrew 7:3 says Jesus is "without beginning of days or end of life." John 1:3 says that he created ALL THINGS, and nothing was made without his action, which means he can't be a created being, because if he was, then at least one thing (himself) was made without his help. Hebrews 7:3 would be a lie if Jesus was created.
The Greek word translated as "only begotten" is monogenes. That particular word is used several times in Scripture and particularly of Jesus in John's writings. Monogenes is a compound word made up of two other words. The King James Version translators liked to translate word-for-word when possible. So when they came to the compound word monogenes, they translated mono as "only" and genes as "begotten."
There's no question about monos being the equivalent of "only." It's the genes part of that word which needs some reflection. Some have assumed it comes from a Greek word which means "give birth" or "beget." Others says that last half of monogenes comes from the Greek noun genos which most often means "kind" or "type." Thus, many modern translations will use the phrase "one and only" or "one of a kind" in passages like John 3:16.
Some scholars see monogenes as a strengthened form of monos meaning "alone," "unique," and "incomparable." In support of this is the way the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) renders Psalm 25:16, "Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely (monogenes) and afflicted" (NASB). In this passage monogenes clearly means "alone" rather having anything to do with descent. It means "the only kin or kind," hence, "the only." In John 3:16 "begotten" does not mean generated or created. "Begotten" is instead a reference to a relationship without reference to origin.
In his book Mere Christianity, C.S Lewis says:
"To beget is to become the father of something; to create is to make something. When you beget something you beget something that is the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, and beaver begets beavers, and a bird begets eggs that become baby birds. But when you make, you make of a kind different from yourself. Birds make nests, beavers make dams, a man makes a wireless set. . . What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man creates is not man."
Lewis is saying that if God "begat" Jesus, then Jesus was God. If John did not mean equality in terms of essence, mind and heart, he would have said God created Jesus. Does it say anywhere in Scripture that God "created" Jesus? NO! When used of Christ, "only begotten" means "unique" and "only beloved." Only begotten expresses Christ's eternal union with the Father in the Godhead. What monogenes does is to direct our attention to God's character, will, love and grace as it is conveyed in the person of Jesus Christ.
As for WORSHIPPING Jesus. You asked me about worship of Jesus. Jesus was worshipped by angels and his disciples.
No one else but God is worshipped in the Bible.
In Isaiah 42:8 God says, "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else." (NLT)
In Exodus 20:3 God tells us to worship is only for the true God: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (KJV)
Jesus is worshipped as God:
John 20:28 (Accepted worship from Thomas) - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (KJV)
Hebrews 1:6 (All the angels are told to worship Jesus) - "And then, when he presented his honored Son to the world, God said, "Let all the angels of God worship him." (NLT)
Matthew 2:11 - (Wise men worshipped Jesus) - "They entered the house where the child and his mother, Mary, were, and they fell down before him and worshipped him." (NLT)
Matthew 8:2 - (A leper worshipped Jesus) -"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying 'Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.'" (KJV)
Matthew 9:18 (A ruler bowed in worship.) -"As Jesus was saying this, the leader of a synagogue came and knelt down [worshipped] before him and said..." (NLT)
John 9:38 (A blind man worshipped Him.) - "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." (KJV)
Remember, God has commanded that only God is to be worshipped. There are no exceptions.
In Exodus 34:14 God says: "For you shall not worship any other God, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (NLT)
Notice that Exodus 34:14 does not indicate there are different kinds of worship. It plainly, and straight out says that we are not to worship any other gods. No worship, of anyone else, no matter what kind of worship, is allowed. Worship, of any kind, may ONLY be directed toward God. Yet Jesus is worshipped over and over. The Bible (God's word) never condemns the worship of Jesus. Worship of Jesus is always accepted as right, acceptable and correct.
Matthew 15:25 (A woman worshipped Him.) - "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, "Lord, help me." (KJV)
Matthew 28:9 (Mary Magdalene worshipped Him.) - "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." (KJV)
Matthew 28:17 (The disciples worshipped Him.) - "And when they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted." (KJV)
In every case above the Greek word "proskuneo" is used and is translated as worshipped. This is the very same word used to talk about worshipping the Father in the New Testament.
In every case Jesus accepted worship as perfectly appropriate, admitting that he was worthy of worship and thus admitting He is God. In no other instance in the Bible is anyone but God allowed to receive worship. For example:
Throughout the Old Testament Israel is repeatedly punished for worshipping "gods" other than God. A major theme throughout the Old Testament is that of Israel turning to worship other "gods" and as a result God turning away from them.
In Acts 14:11 Paul and Barnabas reject the worship of a crowd that was prepared to worship them.
In Revelation 22:8-9 we read: "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.'" (NLT)
Only God is worshipped. Jesus is worshipped as God many times, and never rejects worship, nor does the Bible in any place condemn worship of Jesus as God. Thus Jesus is God.
Jesus is also prayed to in the Bible:
If you were to say, "Father receive my spirit," who would you be praying to? The Father, right?
If you were to say, "Jesus receive my spirit," who would you be praying to? Jesus.
In Acts 7:59, Stephen, while full of the Holy Spirit (v. 55), prayed to Jesus:
And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (See also Acts 9:14; Rom. 10:13.)
See also 1 Cor. 1:1-2 with Psalm 116:4 where calling upon the name of the Lord is prayer and prayer is addressed to Jesus by the Corinthian church.
Jesus also said in John 14:14 "anything you ASK ME in my name, I will do it." (NIV)
So no, I didn't get angry at you, because I know you are speaking out of ignorance. You need to learn the Scriptures. I have shown you. Now, if you don't believe, I bear no blood guilt before God. I have given you the truth of God's word, and what you do with it is up to you.
Thiest_1998 forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lord_megatron 8 months ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||0||3|
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited 2 rounds, and his only argument was that if Jesus was God why didn't he tell people to worship him, which was easily rebutted.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.