The Instigator
imsmarterthanyou98
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
JackFritschy
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Jesus of Nazareth never existed.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 688 times Debate No: 45114
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
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imsmarterthanyou98

Pro

Hi i would like to have a orderly and interesting debate about this topic!
Basically i would like to debate that it is most probable that jesus of Nazareth never existed.


1.Use logic
2.First round opening arguments
3.Be kind no insults and proper grammer.
Thanks,:)
Debate Round No. 1
imsmarterthanyou98

Pro

Thehistoricity of

Jesus Christ.

Every argument that attempts to show that Jesus existed, has logical or evidential fallacies. Anyone who says that Jesus definitely existed is merely giving their opinion, because the evidence clearly shows that Jesus is just a fictional character who never existed.

If you value evidence and logic you will accept the

non-existence of Jesus Christ.

The case supported by evidence
1. There is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetime

Like the supposed founders of other religions, Jesus left no personal writings of any kind, nor any trace of his existence. No writing, graffiti, or evidence of any kind has ever been found from the period in which he supposedly lived that establishes the existence of Jesus.

If we are to take the view that Jesus was actually the son of God, and god himself…Then it would be peculiar that he was unable to write and chose to write nothing himself. Of course the counter argument to this is that God wanted people to have faith so he intentionally didn't leave any evidence of himself.Absurd.

Even if we take the view of Jesus was just a person who was a teacher and the leader of a religious movement, then we could surely expect that this person would have produced his own writings, since others did.

Here are some of the persons who lived during the supposed lifetime of Jesus, whose works we have, and who we could reasonably expect would have mentioned Jesus had he existed, yet they do not

Justus of Tiberias, Philo of Alexandria , Pliny the Elder, Seneca the Younger, Valerius Maximus, Velleius Paterculus. These were all historians that lived during the time of Jesus yet not one of them mentions him.

All of the mentioned above lived during the same time that Jesus supposedly lived and are prime candidates for being potential witnesses and documenters of the existence of Jesus.

The overwhelming lack of commentary about Jesus in the historical sources of his supposed time has troubled Christians from the very beginning.

2.Any evidence for Jesus is fabricated.

As early as the 2nd century this lack of acknowledgement was noticed. Indeed it was not long before forgeries attesting to the existence of Jesus were produced.

There are several false attestations to Jesus that are of note, among these are:

Letters of Pilate

Letter from Herod Antipas

Letter of Agbar

Letters of Caiaphas

Testimony of Thallus and Phlegon

All of these supposed evidences from the time of Jesus are universally accepted by scholars as fraudulent or corrupted.

Josephus Flavius was Fabricated.



A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his miracles.

Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of Christ.!

BUT it’s a FAKE!

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The Church 'Father' Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively.

Yet even he makes not the slightest reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus. Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet existed just like Jesus it was fabricated.

Actually the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of

Constantine just when Christianity was made the religion of the holy roman empire isn’t that ironic?

Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work because he did not exist they fabricated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.

There is no real evidence for

Jesus.

This as many others was a forgery. A peer reviewed paper by Richard carrier proves exactly this.

http://muse.jhu.edu......

3.Christianity was plagiarized from other pagan gods and myths.

Jesus was merely derived from pagan gods.

Jesus a Copy of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus and Other Pagan Gods.1.Horus born on December 25th Horus was born of a virgin three Wise Men Came to Adore the New Born Savior Horus was a child prodigy teacher at 12 Horus had 12 Disciples Horus was crucified. Dead for three days. And Resurrected2.Mithras.

Mithras was born of a virgin

Mithras was attended to by Shepherds

Mithras was born on December 25

Mithra had 12 disciples.Mithras was crucified. Dead for three days. And then resurrected Here are all of the Pagan “savior gods” that Jesus was derived from.

The "Parallel Pagan" Gods

  • Adonis
  • Attis (and Cybele)
  • Baal
  • Bacchus
  • Balder
  • Beddru
  • Devatat
  • Dionysis
  • Hermes
  • Horus
  • Krishna (or Krsna)
  • Mithras
  • Orpheus
  • Osiris
  • Tammuz (or Dumuzi)
  • Thor
  • Zoroaster
Absolutely everything in the Christian religion was derived from previous Pagan myths.First century critics of Christianity voiced accusations that Christianity was nothing but another copy of common religions.3.Jesus Christ was concocted from a conglomeration of these Gods.


Jesus was not really not new, he's just a new version of old ideas.

Jesus came from Heaven. To Earth Via a magical God-mortal birth. In fulfillment of prophesy. Heralded by magic God-sent dreams. He did miracles. He brought salvation.

Jesus was a new Pagan God.

To sum up.

Jesus was new—like the first Honda Civic was a new car and the first Pepsi was a new soda.

However we know that Honda didn't invent the car when they built the Civic and Pepsi didn't invent soda when they made Pepsi.

The Civic and Pepsi were new arrangements of old ideas. Some new stuff, but mostly old.

the gospels make claims that are against the known historical record

Here are a few examples of claims that are made in the Gospels.

  • Star of Bethlehem - No record of such a celestial event
  • Roman census in Jesus birth storyNo record of any census that matches this description.

Massacre of the Innocent - No record of this event

  • John the Baptist – Killed early in the Gospels, died in 36 CE according to Josephus.
  • Death of Jesus – Accompanied by blackout of sun, earthquakes, and raising of the dead
  • Absolutely not a shred of evidence of any of the above.

jesus' crucifixion on passover defies historical believability, yet makes perfect sense metaphorically

Jesus was crucified the first day of Passover.

This itself defies reason, as Passover is considered the holiest of Jewish holiday.

Jewish authorities would have never held a public execution of someone at this time is itself completely beyond belief.

But when you add to this the fact that in the story the members of the council slap Jesus and spit in his face the implausible borders on the impossible.

Here are rules of the Sanhedrin.

  • 1) No criminal session was allowed at night.
  • 3) No capital crime could be tried in a one-day sitting.
  • 4) No criminal trial could be held on the eve of a Sabbath or festival.

The Gospels violates all.

However considering the symbolism of the story it becomes apparent that the story is theological, not historical.

On Passover, at the time that this story is supposedly taking place, the Jews provided manysacrifices, most of them as burnt offerings, meaning animals that were slaughtered and then burned on a fire.

This special lamb is a sacrifice specifically for the forgiveness of sins…

The crucifixion of Jesus on Passover is a metaphor for this sacrificial lamb.

The idea of Jesus Christ as a sacrificial lamb is recorded in the letters of Paul from 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 5:
7 “For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed

.”We can see that the symbolism of Christ as a sacrificial Passover lamb was a part of the Christian tradition prior to the writing of the Gospels.

Nazareth did not exist during the time of JesusTh

No source that confirms that the place even existed in the 1st century AD.

Nazareth is not mentioned even once in the entire Old Testament.

The Book of Joshua (19.10,16) records twelve towns and six villages and yet

NO Nazareth

Talmud, names 63 Galilean towns, never names Nazareth,

St Paul knows nothing of 'Nazareth'.

Rabbi Solly's epistles mention Jesus 221 times, Nazareth not once.

• No ancient historian or geographer mentions Nazareth.

No ruins exist.

4th Century Map – NO NAZARETH!

4th century map

The whole world known to the Romans is represented

named more than 3000 places no Nazareth!

There where many belifes that jesusnever existed on earth in the flesh

During the first 300 years of Christian belief many held different views.

· Marcionism – Christ was a purely spiritual entity not a man

·

  • Nestorianism – Jesus and Christ were two different entities
  • Docetism – Jesus appeared physical, but he was really incorporeal
Conclusion .

Jesus Christ never existed and it relies on much more than simply stating that we don't have evidence for his existence or that the Gospels are unbelievable.

It rests upon mountains of evidence.

We have sources and traditions that not only provide all of the material for the Jesus story, but it is clear that the Jesus story is developed from these sources, and this fact undermines the possibility that the stories are based on observed historical events.

Not only can Christianity be explained without a real historical Jesus but the historical facts that we do have are best explained if

Jesus never existed .

IF you value evidence and logic

I urge you to vote Con.

Sources.

http://pastebin.com......


JackFritschy

Con

It shocks me to find that some deny that Jesus ever even existed. Sure you can say he was just a minor holy man or false prophet, but just a MYTH! Who made this myth anyway? Just a bunch of cooks trying to start a new religion? If so, how could they have possibly convinced people to follow a religion that they knew hadn't existed. No one would have belived that.
As for "no historical sources" we have, Tacitus, Pliny, the Talmud and Josephus. You can try and say that Josephus was elaborated but then why would no one call it out until 100s of years later. While the passage may have been embellished, the core passage is probobly correct. By the way Josephus was born around the time of Jesus's death, he was not governer when jesus lived. Pro tries to get around this by saying that no historian at the time tells about it but the only historian at the time was livy and half of his work is missing. The other historians wrote about Jesus only 30 to 50 years later, that means there was little time for the embellishment of the myth.

Futhermore we know that Luke used an older text for his account of Jesus's death. That older text has been dated to around only 7 years after Jesus's death. It seems ridiculous to think that people would die for what they knew was a blatant lie they made up. You say the bible is unhistorical, but the book of acts has been called the most historically accurat text of all time and we have affirmed that pilate and Caliphas did exist. You claim that Jesus is just another pagan god that people made up. Other pagan gods were not in historical settings. That way people could not tell that it was a lie.
Debate Round No. 2
imsmarterthanyou98

Pro


Point's pro never touches on.
1. There is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetime
2.Christianity was plagiarized from other pagan gods and myths.

3.There is no real evidence for Jesus.

4. the gospels make claims that are against the known historical record
5.Jesus' crucifixion on passover defies historical believability, yet makes perfect sense metaphorically
6.Nazareth did not exist during the time of Jesus
7.There where many belifes that jesusnever existed on earth in the flesh
8.
Not only can Christianity be explained without a real historical Jesus but the historical facts that we do have are best explained if Jesus never existed .


Rebuttals notice CON SOURCES NOTHING.HE HAS NOTHING TO SUPPORT HIS CLAIMS MINE REST UPON MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE.

CON GETS ONE THING RIGHT "Just a bunch of cooks trying to start a new religion" Yes.

Con's one and only argument.
"You claim that Jesus is just another pagan god that people made up. Other pagan gods were not in historical settings. That way people could not tell that it was a lie."

What? The gods i listed existed BEFORE the new pagan god called Jesus.

My sources prove this.

Conclusion .

Jesus Christ never existed and it relies on much more than simply stating that we don't have evidence for his existence or that the Gospels are unbelievable.

It rests upon mountains of evidence.

We have sources and traditions that not only provide all of the material for the Jesus story, but it is clear that the Jesus story is developed from these sources, and this fact undermines the possibility that the stories are based on observed historical events.

Not only can Christianity be explained without a real historical Jesus but the historical facts that we do have are best explained if

Jesus never existed .

IF you value evidence and logic

I urge you to vote Con.

JackFritschy

Con

JackFritschy forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
imsmarterthanyou98

Pro

FF 7 points go to me.
JackFritschy

Con

Your argument rest on the pont that no historian mentioned jesus. This is a blatent falsehood.
The talmud talks about jesus decieving the jewish people. Tacitus says that they where started by a man called christ. It is interesting to note that not a single anti christian historian in antiquity ever said jesus was fake.

Your other point is that jesus is just like other pagan gods. No other pagan god has a claim of existing in a historical timefraime. Also jesus wasn't born on dec 25, it was just a converted pagan holiday.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Athiestsworldwide 2 years ago
Athiestsworldwide
Nice job PRO
Posted by uggamugga 2 years ago
uggamugga
http://carm.org...

Reference
just because the Gospels are supposedly the sole account of certain a testament of history does not make them invalid and does not mean that other historical documents of their time are contradictory to it.
Posted by janetsanders733 2 years ago
janetsanders733
Ahhh using arguements that were rejected 100 years ago by historians and scholars....smh :D

JEsus mythisicsts will never win for this reason because it's rejected by historians and scholars.
Posted by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
Good job PRO! I hope you did not plagiarize anything because all that information is PERFECT.
Posted by MasterDebater2 2 years ago
MasterDebater2
But the Bible says he does!
No votes have been placed for this debate.