The Instigator
MilitantAtheist
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
KeytarHero
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Jesus was NOT God

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
KeytarHero
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/10/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,964 times Debate No: 16997
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (24)
Votes (4)

 

MilitantAtheist

Pro

This time, I will NOT violate one of my rules. The resolution is simple. I will prove that Jesus was not God and my opponent will prove that he is God.

Same structure and rules as always.

Good luck to my opponent. This round is only for acceptance.
KeytarHero

Con

I will accept this debate. However, I do have a few questions, which I will address in the comments.

I look forward to my opponent's opening round.
Debate Round No. 1
MilitantAtheist

Pro

Contention 1: The Omniscient Syllogism

Opening Syllogism

1. God is omniscient.
2. Jesus is not omniscient.
3. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God.

Defense of Premises 1

Omniscient, according to carm.org’s Dictionary of Theology means the following:

An attribute of God alone. It is the quality of having all knowledge (Isaiah 40:14). God knows all things possible as well as actual. He does not need to experience something to know about it completely. Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience represent the nature of God concerning His relation to the creation. (1)

Therefore, because of Isaiah 40:14, God has to be omniscient.

Defense of premises 2

This is where my burden of proof lies. I need to show that Jesus is not omniscient and lacks the attribute of God of having all-knowledge.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son,but the Father. –Mark 13:32 (2)

Here, we see that Jesus was ignorant of the fact that he did not know when he would return. If you read the entire chapter of Mark 13, we see that it is referring to the tribulation period and the rapture.

Jesus does not know when the rapture will take place. Therefore, he cannot posses all knowledge.

CONTRADICTION!!!!

This verse is also contradicted by the following:

Of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. –Colossians 2:2-3

Lord, thou knowest all things. –John 21:17

Now are we sure that thou knowest all things. –John 16:30

Not only is this evidence that Jesus does not know everything, it also shows that there is an un-reconcilable contradiction in the Bible. Does Jesus know everything? That all depends on what verse you look at!

Source: http://carm.org...

Back to you, con!

KeytarHero

Con

Opening Argument

The Instigator has called into question not just one, but two fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Number one, that Jesus is God. We see in many places that Jesus was and is God. In John 1:1 and 14, we see the following: "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (You can go to www.biblegateway.com for a convenient way to look up any verses used.) In John 10:24-31, we see the Jews picking up stones to stone Jesus because He claimed to be God, which was blasphemy. There is no doubt that Jesus claimed to be God, and the Bible supports this claim.

Number two, the Instigator is calling into question Jesus' omnipotence, which is a fair question. After all, the Scriptures seem to indicate that while Jesus was here on Earth, He was not omniscient. As the Instigator pointed out, He did not know when the Lord would be coming again, only the Father knew. Well, as we see in John 10:31, Jesus and the Father are one (i.e. they are a part of the Trinity with the Holy Spirit). Jesus is God, and if Jesus is God, then He is omniscient, too.

I agree with the Instigator's first point in the syllogism, but his argument for point two is fallacious and therefore, his third point does not follow logically. I will make my own syllogism:

1. Only God is omniscient
2. Jesus is omniscient
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

Defense of Premises

I accept the Instigator's definition of omniscience, which comes from the CARM website. However, since the Instigator seems to respect CARM's knowledge of Christian matters, let's see what they have to say about Jesus' alleged lack of omniscience:

"Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. Heb. 2:9 says that Jesus was '. . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.

As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God, but a confirmation of Him being man." [1]

We see that Jesus, in His humanity, did not embody other attributes of God, such as omnipresence. Jesus was a mortal man for some 33 years, subject to the same limitations that we are. It wasn't until after Jesus died and resurrected that He started exhibited His supernatural abilities (such as disappearing and reappearing at will), and He regained His omniscience. Jesus before the resurrection didn't know because He was a man; Jesus after the resurrection knew, because He was no longer limited by His human flesh.

As you can see, this is not an "irreconcilable contradiction," as the Instigator asserts. There is a quite a logical reason for why Jesus did not know, at the time, when the Lord would be returning.

Jesus' omniscience has been proven, therefore His status as God is secure. I look forward to our next round.

[1] http://carm.org...;
Debate Round No. 2
MilitantAtheist

Pro

I thank my opponent for his reply. I apologize that this was typed up super fast and this is not a full rebuttal. I may have a million spelling/grammar mistakes, but I ask my opponent to forgive me for it.

"The instigator has called into question not just one, but two fundamental doctrines of Christianity."

Correct.

I am not denying that some places in the Bible do teach Jesus' divinity. However, we can see through Jesus' admission, that he contradicts those "scripture." That is the purpose of this debate.

1. Only God is omniscient
2. Jesus is omniscient
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

you are correct. But, you have to defend all three premises. I have shown that only God is omniscient, so I'll give you the 1st premises. Once you back up and give 100% support for p2, then I will give you all 3 premises.


I accept the Instigator's definition of omniscience, which comes from the CARM website. However, since the Instigator seems to respect CARM's knowledge of Christian matters

I have the utmost respect for Matt Slick and carm.org. Matt Slick and I actually had a really nice conversation on the phone. I disagree with some of his teachings, but that is okay. Remember, I am not agreeing with 100% of what they are saying, I do, however, agree with the definitions of omniscience that carm.org gives.

"Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. Heb. 2:9 says that Jesus was '. . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.

As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God, but a confirmation of Him being man."
[1]

We see that Jesus, in His humanity, did not embody other attributes of God, such as omnipresence. Jesus was a mortal man for some 33 years, subject to the same limitations that we are. It wasn't until after Jesus died and resurrected that He started exhibited His supernatural abilities (such as disappearing and reappearing at will), and He regained His omniscience. Jesus before the resurrection didn't know because He was a man; Jesus after the resurrection knew, because He was no longer limited by His human flesh.

In a nutshell, my opponent asserts that Jesus was talking from his human nature and not his divine nature. This is now begging the question, “If Jesus did know when he would return, and said that he did not know, didn’t he lie?”

I’m interested in hearing my opponent’s response to that.

Further Arguments

I meant to add this argument in from round 2, but had no time.

I also assert that Jesus was a false prophet.

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:30

Clearly those people are dead. Carm.org asserts that Jesus was talking about the destruction and persecution. However, if you read the previous verses, you clearly see that Jesus was talking about his return.

Jesus falsely prophesies DIRECTLY to the high priest (Caiphas) that he would live to see his second coming. Jesus uses the term “coming on the clouds of heaven”. This clearly negates the “coming” as the resurrection but as a return to the earth on CLOUDS, not his return in human form from the dead. Matthew 26:64 & Mark 14:62.

"But I tell you: From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.'" (Matthew 26:64 NAB)

Then Jesus answered, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:62 NAB)

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 NAB)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

John’s Predictions

8) John believes “the time is at hand,” and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will “shortly come to pass.” Revelations 1:1-3

9) John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 22:7, 12 & 20

10) John thinks he is living in “the last times.” He “knows” this because he sees so many antichrists around. 1 John 2:18

11) John says that the antichrist was already present at the time 1 John was written. 1 John 4:3

12) John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 3:11, 22:7, 12 & 20

Paul’s Predictions

13) Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. Philippians 4:5

14) Paul believes he is living in the “last days.” Hebrews 1:2

15) Paul believed that Jesus would come “in a little while, and will not tarry.” Hebrews 10:37

16) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul stated: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: And the dead Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: And so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Paul shared the delusion, taught by Jesus, in that he expected to be snatched up bodily into heaven with other saints then living, who would, thus, never taste death. The use of “we” clearly proves as much. It is difficult to deny that Paul was certain that the end of the world was coming in the lifetime of his contemporaries.

Other Prophecies About Armageddon:

17) James thought that Jesus would return soon. James 5:8

18) Peter wrongly believed that he was living in the “last times” and that “the end of all things is at hand.” 1 Peter 1:20 & 4:7

I have the link to the source at the bottom of the page. I apologies for this horrific argument. I have been super busy with admin training and final exams.

I admit that this was copied and paced, but I had very little time to revise it. Source below.

Source: http://www.evilbible.com...

KeytarHero

Con

I thank the Instigator making an effort to debate this topic. As he doesn't appear to have much time to dedicate to this, one might ask why he rushed rather than waiting until his schedule opened up a bit so that he could give this weighty topic the attention it deserves.

"...we can see through Jesus' admission, that he contradicts those 'scripture [sic].'"

He has not, as I have shown.

"Once you back up and give 100% support for p2, then I will give you all 3 premises."

That's not my job here. You're the one calling into question these doctrines. I have shown in the previous round how Jesus' words were not a contradiction, and therefore His status as God, as well as man, is secure. The contention you were arguing was about alleged contradictions in the Bible, and how you can prove that Jesus is not God, and you have not done that. If you want me to prove that Jesus is God, that's a whole new debate in itself. However, I have proven that Jesus is, in fact, omniscient by showing the error in your arguments. Therefore, my second premise stands.

"This is now begging the question, 'If Jesus did know when he would return, and said that he did not know, didn't he lie?' I'm interested in hearing my opponent's response to that."
In fact, I quite thoroughly explained this in my last round. The shortened version is that no, He wasn't lying. Jesus was both God and man. He left the attributes associated with being God to grow as a human, which is why the Scriptures say He "grew in wisdom and understanding." However, as you have not addressed this, I extend my arguments.

Jesus as a prophet

It seems that the Instigator only has a few arguments in his arsenal, as he has already posed this question in another debate with me, and I have thoroughly answered it. Not only that, but he actually copied and pasted his argument from another website. I am now not arguing with MilitantAtheist, but whomever wrote this article. Since he is using the same argument he used against me before, I will respond with the same argument I responded with before.

These passages are indeed about the Second Coming. According to Bible commentator Matthew Henry, "Christ foretells his second coming. It is usual for prophets to speak of things as near and just at hand, to express the greatness and certainty of them." [1] What he is saying is that Christ didn't literally mean this generation will not pass away before these things happen, however, He was speaking as if it was so to underscore the important and urgency of His second coming, and how every Christian must be ready for the time when He does return. It is not without precedent for Christ to use figurative language. He also referred to Himself as "the door," "the vine," etc.

I will now respond to the points as succinctly as possible.

8) There's no lie here. In fact, 2 Peter 3 tells us that the Lord is not slow concerning His promises. A day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day to God. For God, who exists outside time, these things will happen "soon." He is tarrying as long as He can because He doesn't want anyone to perish, but that all should come to repentance. Not that they all will, but He wants as many as will follow Him to avoid going to Hell.

9) See number eight.

10) Antichrists were around then, and antichrists are still around now. The same signs that showed the first century church they were in the end times are still happening now. It could happen "soon" as the Lord considers "soon" to be. We have antichrists around even now who claim to be God, or who claim to be "like God."

11) Here is a verse the author is taking out of context. "The Antichrist" is not in the world, "the spirit of the antichrist" is in the world. John was saying that any spirit that confesses Christ has come in the flesh is of God; any other spirit is of the antichrist ("anti-" meaning "against," so literally, "against Christ").

12) See number eight.

13) Again, see number eight.

14) See number 13, unless you're superstitious, then see number 12.

15) Hebrews 10 is not even about the end times. It is about Christians being faithful, even unto death, and the one who will give their rewards to them will do so quickly, and won't delay in giving them what they have earned. This passage was taken out of context.

16) The key words are "we who are alive." This did not indicate Paul, or the people he was writing to, just whomever was alive when it happened. This could even be those of us, in the future, who read the letters since they still apply to us.

17) Again, see number eight.

18) I have already addressed these, as well.

As you can see, the arguments presented here rely on taking Biblical Scriptures out of context. I have still proven that Jesus did not lie, and that He was not a false prophet, therefore His status as God is still secure.

I look forward to our next round.

[1] http://www.christnotes.org...;
Debate Round No. 3
MilitantAtheist

Pro

I thank the Instigator making an effort to debate this topic. As he doesn't appear to have much time to dedicate to this, one might ask why he rushed rather than waiting until his schedule opened up a bit so that he could give this weighty topic the attention it deserves.

This debate is getting too much for me to keep up with. I appologies but need to forfeit the debate.

KeytarHero

Con

My opponent has forfeited this debate, so please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
MilitantAtheist

Pro

vote pro! *Just Kidding* please vote for my awesome opponent. I hope to debate with you soon. I have decided not to do any more religious debates...lolz.
KeytarHero

Con

Again, my opponent has forfeited, so please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Good point, Penguin.
Posted by Rabid.Penguin 5 years ago
Rabid.Penguin
@KeytarHero "Even though God the Father created, I think it would still be technically correct to say that Jesus created the world because Jesus is God."

And Colosians 1:15 tells us that Jesus created everything. And John 1-5 also tells us that the Word created all things and the Word is Jesus Christ.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Arguing that God and Jesus are not the same since they're not spirits is to disregard the trinity doctrine.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Jesus existed with God in the very beginning (John 1:1, 14). He simply *became* human so that He could save humanity from their sins. But God has always existed as a Trinitiy (Genesis 1). Jesus also existed as a spirit for all of time, and therefore is God.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
According to the trinity doctrine (which I don't understand fully either),
Jesus is god incarnate on earth, in a human body.
Posted by MilitantAtheist 5 years ago
MilitantAtheist
God is a spirit...
Jesus=/=Spirit Nd thus is not god
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Honestly, I freely admit that I don't fully understand the Trinity. I know only what the Bible teaches about it, and I try to wrap my head around it as best I can, even though a "trinity" doesn't occur in nature.

The Bible says that Jesus is God: "I and the Father are one." I kind of take the fact that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three beings in one, as that each are equal, even though the three seem to have different purposes (God the Father created, God the Son redeemed mankind, and God the Holy Spirit dwells within each believer and helps/comforts us). Even though God the Father created, I think it would still be technically correct to say that Jesus created the world because Jesus is God.

I don't think the Bible ever says any member of the Trinity is inferior or superior to another. But there is the verse in Hebrews that said "for a little while (i.e. while Christ was on Earth as a man) He was made a little lower than the angels." But that was only temporary, during His ministry here on Earth.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Well, even through this was only in the first debate, keytarhero, do you think the doctrine of trinity would link Jesus to God? Is it correct that the doctrine states that GOD is composed of: God the father, God the son [Jesus], and the Holy spirit?
Imagine it as a logical statement:
set X is made of Z, A, and B
B is a part of set X, but is it equal to set X?
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Good job. :)
Posted by MilitantAtheist 5 years ago
MilitantAtheist
Thanks. Neither was mind. I passed the 2nd MP, failed the current MP and passed final :)
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by liljohnny818 5 years ago
liljohnny818
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