Jesus was a braver man then Muhammad.
Debate Rounds (3)
First, is this a question or a statement? If it is a question then bravery of one Messenger of God never surpasses the others because the difficulties each had to go through is connected to the region in which He came to. I am not here to argue that Muhammad was braver than Jesus in any way whatsoever.
In Egypt, Moses was publicly blasphemed and hugely rejected by the Pharaoh and his supporters, which then resulted in the Messenger of God being ridiculed and mocked. In Numbers 12 Moses" bro & sis, Aaron and Miriam, attempt a revolt against Him. But they have a reasonable complaint. Moses teaches that Israelites are not to marry foreigners (Deut. 7:3), yet He Himself has a foreign wife (Num. 12:1). They could have brought it to Moses or to the council of elders which He had recently formed (Num. 11:16-17) for resolution but instead, they tried to put themselves in Moses" place as leaders of the nation. In reality, their complaint was an excuse to launch a rebellion to attain power. Therefore, we see Moses tasked with bearing the Message of God, being publicly mocked for spreading it, witnessing the betrayal of His family members, witnessing God punishing His bro and sis, and being pursued across a vast, barren desert by an army of Egyptian revenge-seekers led by Ramses. If this doesn't require bravery idk what does.
A good question to ask ourselves is "what challenges did Christ encounter?". If we take the word "challenge" to be something difficult we face and work hard to overcome it, then Jesus didn't really have any challenges. As a true human being, Jesus relied every moment of His life on the ultimate power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill His Father's Will. He did nothing in His own strength because it was the Father who enabled him to do so. In this, He shows us what true human living is - a life of complete submission to God; saying 'Father, not my will but yours be done'; knowing that everything we are and have comes as a gift from the Father, and that 'He who calls us is faithful; he will surely do it' (1 Thess. 5:24). A challenge he faced was that people went as far as to call Him "God" and he responds in frustration in John 8:42-43, ""If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because, you are unable to hear what I say". The Lord Christ was confronted every day with challenges presented by the people. The Devil tried to tempt him to step aside from His mission (Matthew 4:8-10); people expected Him to set up an earthly kingdom on the spot (John 18:35-36); the leaders of the day were constantly arguing with him and trying to trick him into saying something that would deem him false (John 18:37-40); people came to him with questions and expectations that were just plain stupid and useless (Matt 11:3, Matthew 15:1-3, Mark 4:38,40, Mark 7:17-18). Jesus confronted a crowd of people who were misusing the Temple, and displayed divine, righteous anger (Matt 21:12-13); he became frustrated with those who always expected him to do a miracle (Matt 11:20), or with his disciples who continually failed to get the point (Mark 4:38,40. His greatest challenge was when he faced the cross. As the time came, Jesus became "deeply troubled in his spirit" (John 13:21) - yet in the next moment was able to say to his disciples '"Let not your hearts be troubled" (John 14:1)! At the cross, Jesus carried the weight of the anger of God against our sin and experienced the horror of human shame, remorse, hopelessness, and fear. It is no wonder that it is said that he was unrecognizable, not just from his physical beatings (Isa 52:14), but also because of what all this experience of humanity's guilt would have done to him. We're told that even this was done in the power and enabling of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus didn't so much face the challenge, bolster up all his strength, and then push through to make it happen. He simply surrendered himself to the Father and to his Father's will. That's the key for us, too. So his bravery was shown by implementing what the Almighty had asked of Him.
Before the migration of the Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Medina in 622, I will cover a little bit of Islamic history. In Arabia, monotheism was not a popular belief with those people whose livelihood depended on idols, therefore the Declaration of the Prophet Muhammad"s mission in Mecca in the year 610 generated a lot of hate, much like the time of Moses when He proclaimed His mission in Egypt"s idol-worshipping atmosphere. Once the Prophet Muhammad began to do God"s Will by spreading the Teachings of Islam, this action made severe enemies among the polytheist traders and rulers of Mecca. The persecution of the Muslims by the Meccans was so immense that the Prophet and His Companions had no choice but to escape the city to avoid further oppression, much like when Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, away from tyranny. So I"ll go over why He and His disciples had to escape.
Amr ibn Hisham, a polytheist, one of the leading figures of the city and the arch-enemy to the Teachings of Muhammad, had one thing on his mind, and that was to generate a state-sponsored hostility towards Muhammad and Islam. For example, while the Prophet would go to pray, Hisham took his thugs and waited until He was in prostration during prayer, and ordered His thugs to dump camel feces on Him. To anyone who believes in God and in common sense, this is a disgusting and disgraceful act. Acts like this continued when Hisham threw rocks at Him during prayer, or stirred up the entire Meccan population with hateful sentiments towards the newly converted people. From the year 610 to the year 622, the Prophet faced such treatment from the rulers of polytheist Mecca, so He and His disciples were forced to escape under the scorching Arabian sun, and through the sharp, cold Arabian nights, beginning the arduous task (Hijra) of reaching the city of Medina 300 km north of Mecca. Even when the Prophet had left the city, Hisham organized a massive plot to assassinate Him because the Teachings of the One True God were gradually spreading in his city (the persecution of Christ and Moses are similar because they too taught the Teachings of the One True God but were actively oppressed). The year 622 marks the beginning of the Islamic Calendar. Even then, with the Meccans temporarily out of the picture, the betrayal of the Jewish and the Christian tribes became a new problem that faced Muhammad and His disciples.
In conclusion, all the Messengers of God, whether they were leading their disciples away from tyranny (Moses) or literally gave their life in service to the Cause of God (Jesus) or took 10 years (610 to 622) of persecution, oppression, and public harassment (Muhammad), they have all been harassed to some level by the humans that refused to investigate their claims. So the bravery of one Messenger of God is the bravery of all the Messengers of God, for there is a reason why they were the Ones that are appointed to do God"s will on this Earth.
Your turn, my friend :)
P.S.: I, by no means, claim the station of any Messenger of God to be higher than the other. Each came for their time and each served their purpose according to the Commands of the Almighty God.
1) "Did you check their passports?..."
Despite your plain and uninformative answer, I will ask you a series of questions that will prove to you the illegitimacy of your argument. So I ask you, since when do passports provide a bravery section? To my knowledge, passports contain personal information such as name, age, gender, height, weight, country, and so forth. Are you saying that a passport is all you need as proof in order for this problem to be cleared up for you? Even if this passport existed with a bravery section, what proof do you have that in Jesus'passport, His bravery box is checked? These are just questions for you to ponder on.
2) "how do you know they were actually messengers from "god"?"
Well simply put, you argue to defend one of them therefore the validity of one, is the validity of all because their Message is based on a flow of progressive revelation. God gives us Messengers, therefore they don't lay down the Laws, they simply bring God's Laws to us and guide us in its ways. So respectfully, it's not the Messenger or His Message that are the problem, it's your lack of understanding as to the station of the Messenger in this case, it's Muhammad.
Second, the title of this debate is if Jesus was a braver man than Muhammad. Your question, "how do you know they were actually messengers from "god", has nothing to do with the title, because instead of investigating the alleged bravery of the Messenger of God, your questioning their station. I would advise you to stick to the title of the debate and provide reference for your answers.
Your turn :)
Definition: a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.
I accepted this debate in the hopes of actually debating the title you proposed. If my thorough, well written explanation of your uninformative, uneducated, meaningless arguments is considered a forceful and bitter verbal attack, then I am deeply sorry for providing clarification. On that note, if any of my explanations were offensive to you to such as degree that you call it a "diatribe", then again I apologize. I urge the voters to judge my explanations fairly.
2) "the facts don't lie"
You have provided Zero facts or references or solid debatable opinions and you're telling me that the facts don't lie? We had 3 rounds to discuss it and you didn't bother to address any of my points or provide any well-thought out, scholarly responses. As far as "facts" go, I provided you history, references and even advised you to stick to the subject and you did none of them. So based on the actual facts I provided, I hope the voters can judge fairly.
3) "Jesus sacrificed Himself"
False. In fact, God commanded Him to fulfill the task of Crucifixion, which was something He did not want. I will provide you some references as to why He did not want to be Crucified.
On the night Jesus was arrested, before his trial and crucifixion, he prayed alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, and asked three of his disciples to wait nearby and pray for him. Luke tells us, "He withdrew about a stone's throw and prayed, 'Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done'" (Luke 22:41-42). Matthew records Jesus as making his request of the Father twice: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'" (Matthew 26:39) and "He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done'" (Matt. 26:42). Mark records his prayer in a positive way, "'Abba, Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will" (Mark 14:36).
Jesus constantly begs God to take the cup of death away from Him because He is God and He can do anything, so does He have to give His life? Jesus then comes to His senses and says "not my will be done, but yours". So we can conclude that God commanded Jesus to be sacrificed, not Himself.
4) "Muhammad did not"
Is this a question or a statement? For the purpose of this debate, I will take it as a question.
Great aims, to be achieved, call for great sacrifices, and success in making a reality out of them comes at high cost. The greater the aim, the higher is the price one has to pay to realize it. Man's struggle to free himself from the chains of slavery and tyranny is thousands of years old, and it has taken countless lives. The struggle goes on today as it did in the past, and its story is endless because the struggle itself is endless. Webster's definition of a sacrifice is to suffer loss for an ideal. So parting with one's most highly treasured possessions for the sake of an ideal, constitutes sacrifice. Like Abraham who offered His son, Ishmael and John the Baptist offered His own life as a sacrifice.
Regarding Muhammad, He suffered greatly but yet a distinction must be made here between material sacrifices and the sacrifices of life. Muhammad made both. He sacrificed all his personal comforts, and all his material possessions for the sake of God. What is perhaps not known, is the fact that some of his nearest and dearest family members were killed in the defense of Islam from those who were disiples of ignorance and promoters of violence. In His lifetime, he lost two uncles, three cousins, two adopted sons, His children that never made it out of childhood and one foster-brother. These losses are tremendously overwhelming to any human being, so saying that He did not sacrifice what He held most dear for the Cause of God, is truly a mistake.
5) "He was a prophet of a land a virgins"
Prove it. You had 3 rounds to talk about it and you didn't. I'm still open to conversation, should you want to solve your baseless problem.
6) "entice young fighters to His Cause"
False. This is scripturally and hictorically inaccurate opinion.
7) "That is the truth"
All these opinions are hate-filled, uneducated, baseless, insulting, and uninformative. Please, for the love of anyone you hold dear, and for the sake of your own reputation on DDO, read a book. This is a friendly invitation to gather appropriate knowledge regarding a certain topic and the debate about it on DDO.
8) "Muhammad lived as a warrior"
Again ill-founded and false. And again, read a book, please.
9) "Jesus died a martyr"
Jesus died a martyr, so did Muhammad. After eating poisoned lamb, He contracted pain in His stomach that gradually lead Him to His passing. Jesus died believing in God's authority, and Muhammad the same. Read more on the Passing of Muhammad
10) "You want to argue this?"
Um...well that's why I'm on DDO haha...but not argue, more like converse :)
11) "Then kill me, Muhammad style"
You're not worth a bullet so grow up and don't be a clown. Just read a book, dude. That's all it takes :)
In conclusion, I have successfully provided all the basic requirements needed for a fruitful conversation, yet it was turned down every time. I can also say that based on the arguments that was given by Pro, he knows nothing about the subject he is debating about, and on top of that, insults the belief of other to attempt at proving a point which I did not get. More importantly this type of behavior in a sophisticated environment such as DDO, demonstrates the individual's lack of understanding and lack of knowledge. I wish the best of luck to you, bud
Quote of the day:
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato
Thanks for the debate :)
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