The Instigator
patrick967
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
MrJosh
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Jesus was born in Nazareth

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
MrJosh
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 703 times Debate No: 59089
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

patrick967

Pro

First round is for acceptance only.
MrJosh

Con

I accept this challenge, and look forward to PRO’s arguments. For clarity, I will provide the following definitions:

Jesus-The central figure of Christianity, often referred to as Christ, or “the messiah” [1][2][3].

Nazareth-A city in Northern Israel [4][5][6].

Sources:

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[3] https://bible.org...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] https://www.google.com...
[6] http://www.nazareth.muni.il...
Debate Round No. 1
patrick967

Pro

What I'm about to tell you directly contradicts Matthew 2:1.
"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,"

In Luke 2:1-2:3, Luke explains why Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem.
"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Cæsar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. 2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city."
That census never happened. You can only find that information about the census in the gospels. You'd think someone in all of the Middle East would write down something like, "Today Caesar ordered all of us to go back to our original cities." There is no actual evidence outside the gospels to support this census. Joseph and Mary would have no reason to go to Bethlehem to give birth, effectively deciding Jesus was born in Nazareth.


I eagerly await my opponent's arguments. Also, sorry for the extreme delay in argument, my grandma had a stroke and my family and I drove two hours to go see her. She's fine now, though.
MrJosh

Con

I am sorry to hear about your grandmother, but glad that you say she is alright. The delay was minor, and for good reason.

I would like to thank PRO for his arguments. I will address PRO’s point first, and then bring up my own points.

The Census

PRO has claimed that the census which allegedly brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem never occurred. He has based that claim on the fact that he has seen to evidence of such a census. I would like to remind PRO that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Simply because we have not yet found extra-biblical evidence for the census, does not mean that there was not one.

Also, even if we grant that the census did not occur, we have not established Nazareth as Jesus’ birthplace. At best, we have determined that Bethlehem is unlikely to have been the birthplace. There is still a burden to prove that Jesus was actually birthed in Nazareth.

Did Nazareth Exist?

I would like to bring into question whether or not Nazareth existed in the time of Jesus. There are no extra-biblical sources that show that Nazareth existed in the time of Jesus , and in fact, the first known records referencing Nazareth don’t appear until hundreds of years after the alleged life of Jesus [1][2][3]. There are also no references to Nazareth in the Old Testament [2][3]. This of course doesn’t mean Nazareth didn’t exist at that time (refer to my logic in the previous section), but it does at least show that there is no concrete evidence that the place existed in order for Jesus to have been born there.

The Biblical (and Qur’anic) Case

PRO rightfully opened up his arguments with the point that his claim contradicts the story of Jesus’ birth in the second chapter of Matthew. I would also like to point out that both the books of Matthew [4] and Luke [5] claim the Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Mark and John don’t address the matter of geography. Also, Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus is very much a matter of Christian tradition [6][7][8], while Islam notes that Mary went to a “place toward the east” to give birth [9], which is, of course, supported by Islamic tradition which notes that his birthplace might have been Bethlehem [10]. Of course, none of these points prove that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but that is not what is being discussed. The actual question is whether or not Jesus was born in Nazareth.

Closing Thoughts

PRO has made the assertion that the census which caused Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem never occurred, and then fallaciously interprets that to mean that Jesus was born in Nazareth. I have pointed out not only that PRO’s claim is unfounded, but also that if we accept the claim, it still does not mean Jesus was born in Nazareth.

I have also shown that Nazareth may not have existed at the time of Jesus birth, that the bible and Christian Tradition show Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Also, Islam notes that Jesus’ birthplace might have been Bethlehem. In order for PRO to show that Jesus was born in Nazareth, he is going to have to overcome the bible, as well as Christian tradition. I look forward to PRO comments in the coming rounds.

Sources:

[1] Strange, James F. (1992). Nazareth. Anchor Bible Dictionary. Double Day: New York, New York.
[2] http://www.biblestudytools.com...
[3] http://www.jesusneverexisted.com...
[4] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[5] https://www.biblegateway.com...
[6] http://www.religioustolerance.org...
[7] http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
[8] https://bible.org...
[9] http://quran.com...
[10] http://islamicvoice.com...

Debate Round No. 2
patrick967

Pro

patrick967 forfeited this round.
MrJosh

Con

I'm sorry to see that PRO has not offered any arguments this round. We shall see what he has in store for the final round.
Debate Round No. 3
patrick967

Pro

I'm sorry, my grandma had a mini-stroke after her initial stroke. We went all the way back to the hospital and we stayed in Akron until yesterday. She's still okay, and that's important to me. The wifi at the hospital was really slow (I couldn't even get to Google) so I apologize for minimal debate. I would like to formally forfeit because I have only 41 minutes to post this and I'm going golfing with my dad. Sorry about my absence.
MrJosh

Con

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother. I think you have made the right decision; focus on your family. If you would like to debate this again in the future, I would be more than willing. If not, best of luck.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
lol, at first I thought WillRiley was being scarcastic.
Something like "you really think people lie?"
Posted by Preston 3 years ago
Preston
ya, try like nearly every one, the Norse are the best example
Posted by WillRiley 3 years ago
WillRiley
FreeThinker, you really think that some people would decide to create a religion that ends with them all dying anyways?
Posted by Preston 3 years ago
Preston
yes there is, hundreds of documents, not all from Christians.
Posted by Free_Th1nker 3 years ago
Free_Th1nker
There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus ever existed.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 3 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
patrick967MrJoshTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro conceded, so arguments to Con. Pro receives the conduct point for conceding rather than just letting the clock run out on all his rounds.
Vote Placed by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
patrick967MrJoshTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had better case,conduct, and grammar. Clear win.