The Instigator
tahir123
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
gordonjames
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Jesus was not the God or Son of God

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
gordonjames
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/22/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,173 times Debate No: 35880
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)

 

tahir123

Pro

Jesus was not the Son of God. The only sources we have of Jesus is the Bible and other texts which didn't make it into the Bible. In none of those books does Jesus ever claims, "I am God worship me". Jesus was only a human, he never claimed divinity. He ate, he slept, he pooped, he was completely human. When He was about to be crucified He did not say Crucify me, I will die for your sins. If He was the Son of God He would not need to fear death, because he was immortal

How can God die? God is eternal if Jesus died he could not be God

If Jesus was the Son of God, why didn't he come down from the cross.

And when Jesus is on the cross he says, "My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me," not "Oh me oh my why have I forsaken myself,"

Jesus was only human.

The Miracles of Jesus are used to prove he was God, but Jesus says if you believe in him you will be able to do greater works, "John 14:1-12" So the Christians should also be able to do miracles if they believe in Jesus

Those miracles were metaphorical, He didn't really heal the blind or bring the dead to life, those were metaphors for healing the spiritually blind and the spiritually dead.

The resurrection of Jesus is used to suggest that he was God, but probably he never resurrected, he was probably never dead either.

Jesus survived crucifixion and moved to Kashmir, where he really died, and we have his body there and in the book Jesus in India, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah proves that Jesus died in Kashmir, and since Jesus is dead He cannot be God

There is no God but God, and Jesus was only a human.
gordonjames

Con

Thank you for the interesting debate topic.
A) You claim that “The only sources we have of Jesus is the Bible and other texts which didn't make it into the Bible”
This is false. There are many non Biblical sources that mention Jesus.

1. Tacitus, a Roman historian wrote this in AD 64 [2]
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome.” . . .

This mentions Christ (Christus), and Christians (named after Christus), and tells how he was crucified (the extreme penalty as stated elsewhere in Tacitus). It mentions Pontius Pilate and Tiberius, and tells how Christianity developed in Judea and in Rome. It is quite telling that the death of Jesus only briefly checked the growth of Christianity, as it tells in the NT.


2. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In a letter to Trajan, he asks advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.[3]
“He describes what these Christians did as follows.
“They stated that the sum of their guilt or error amounted to this, that they used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god, and that they took an oath not to involve themselves in villainy, but rather to commit no theft, no fraud, no adultery; not to break faith, nor to deny money placed with them in trust. Once these things were done, it was their custom to part and return later to eat a meal together, innocently, although they stopped this after my edict, in which I, following your mandate, forbade all secret societies.
All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition.”

3. Josephus, was a first century Jewish historian. Twice he mentions Jesus in Jewish Antiquities [4]; he says “ he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others,; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: . . .”

Josephus also says [5]
“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

These are the most ancient,(Before 150 AD) non Biblical mentions of Jesus and the ways Christians worshiped Him as God. Jewish rabbinical writings collected between 70 AD and 500 AD called the Babylonian Talmud says “On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged” (Yeshu or Yeshua is a Hebrew form of Jesus name). The reason they give for Jesus’ crucifixion is because “because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy” [6]

Lucian of Samosata, a second century Greek satirist, wrote this of Christians [7]
“It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.”

Space is limited, I must move on.

B) You say “Jesus ever claims, ‘I am God worship me.’”
There are some problem with your argument.

1. Jesus never claims “I am only a prophet, don’t worship me.”
Wanting Jesus to use your words is silly. He was fully obedient to the Father. If God did not tell him to use those exact words, he did not. He did and said exactly what his Father wanted. You need to look at the words and actions of Jesus to get a better picture of who he is.

2. Even holy angels refuse worship,[Rev 19:10, 22:9] as do decent people. [Acts 10:25, 14:15]
Jesus allowed people to worship him [.Mat 14:33, John 9:38, Mat 28:9,17; Luke 24:52,
If he were not claiming to be God, his own teachings would forbid this. [Matt. 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6; Heb. 1:6; John 20:28,29]


For sources outside the Bible look at those cited above.
Those writers were not close associates of Jesus, and got their information second hand but Pliny still understood that they “sing to Christ as if he were a god”. Josephus calls Him Christ (Messiah) and comes as close to calling Him divine as he can without losing his position or possibly even his life.

For exact quotes of Jesus’ words lets go to the NT.
Jesus asks the disciples “who do you say that I am?” and Peter answers “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” - Jesus could have refuted this, but he tells Peter that this was revealed to him by “my Father in heaven” (affirming his status as Son of God and Messiah)

Matthew 16:15-17 (Similar passages are found in Mark 8:27 and Luke 9:18)
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Another event in Jesus’ life is recorded in Matthew 17:1–9, Mark 9:2–8, and Luke 9:28–36
Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain and God spoke from heaven - “Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: ‘This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!’”

This voice from heaven affirms Jesus as Son of God. It is also at Jesus’ baptism in Matthew 3:16-17 - “As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’”

Isaiah 44:6 says - ““This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God”
Surah 57:3 refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.”

When Jesus gives John the revelation we read [Rev 1:17-18] “ When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”

Jesus claims to be “the first and the last”.
He says “ I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever ”


Blessings!

[1] http://carm.org...
[2] Tacitus, Annals 15.44 from http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
[3] Pliny to Emperor Trajan from http://www.tyrannus.com...
[4] Josephus, Jewish Antiquities XX - http://www.ccel.org...
[5] Josephus, Jewish Antiquities XVIII http://www.ccel.org...
[6] http://www.hebrew-streams.org...
[7] Lucian of Samosata - http://www.sacred-texts.com...

Debate Round No. 1
tahir123

Pro

Yes you are right there are other sources that mention Jesus, however in none of them does Jesus claim to be God.

The Bible and these other sources were written years after Jesus lived, so they are not 100 percent reliable, but they are reliable enough to describe how Jesus was like

The Bible was changed though by Constantine, so the parts where Jesus was worshipped were later inserted.

Jesus never claims to be God in any text, so why should we believe He was God anyways.

True He never claims to be a prophet either, but that is irrelevant, because I am not going to argue that he was a prophet, I am going to argue that he was only human, which he was.

The burden of proof in this argument is on me to prove Jesus wasn't God or the Son of God, so I will prove he wasn't

1st of all being God and man is logically impossible. God is an infinite being, and man is only a finite being. You can't have an infinite and finite being that is impossible, therefore Jesus wasn't God

Jesus couldn't be the Son of God also, because it would require him to have the chromosomes of his father (God) and his mother (Mary), now how can God have chromosomes if He is immaterial? He can't therefore Jesus isn't the son of God.

Also how can God have a son? Can God create a stone he can not lift? No that is outside His nature, having a son is outside his nature also, Therefore Jesus can't be the son of God because that is not possible for God to have a son because it is outside God's nature to have a son.

Jesus ate and he slept and he pooped and used the bathroom. God doesn't do these things, Jesus can't be God, only humans do these things, therefore Jesus is only a human,

Also if Jesus was God, why did he say on the cross, "My God my God why hast thou forsaken me?" instead of, "Oh Me oh My why have I forsaken myself?" Jesus can't be God and pray to another God if he is the one true God

Jesus prays repeatedly in the Bible and if He was God who is he praying to? Himself? That makes no sense, Jesus couldn't be God

Also Jesus exhibits fear when he is about to be crucified, If he was God or the son of God he would have shown no fear towards being crucified, because he would be all powerful and would have simply come down from the cross if he was God or the Son of God

Finally Jesus dies according to Christians on the cross? Can God die? No God is eternal let alone immortal, God can't die, therefore Jesus isn't God

but we Ahmadis don't believe Jesus died on the cross, we believe he survived and traveled to Kashmir and died there.

It has been proven Jesus died there. The tomb faces Jerusalem like in Jewish tradition and has foot prints with holes in them, just like the feet of a crucified person,

Therefore Jesus can't be God if he is dead. We Ahmadis have proven that Jesus is forever dead, therefore He can't be God, because God is living and God is eternal, while Jesus is dead forever.

With all these facts and logical arguments I have met the burden of proof and have logically and physically proven Jesus isn't God, and the ultimate being the death of Jesus, and all that proves that Jesus wasn't God or the Son of God, because he is dead,

There is only one God, and Jesus was only human

http://www.alislam.org...
gordonjames

Con

Thank you for this interesting topic.

1. Thanks for admitting “Yes you are right there are other sources that mention Jesus”.
I assume this means you are accepting the accuracy of those non Biblical sources cited.


2. I encourage you to take the Bible more seriously.
There is a great deal of textual evidence that makes the NT more authoritative, so if you accept the non Biblical sources from my round 1 you should also accept the NT. [1]

If you accept the Quran as true, I encourage you to accept the Torah and the Gospels as true.
“He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.” S. 3:3

“This Koran could not have been forged apart from God; but it is a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of the Book, wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being.” S. 10:37

Many places in the Quran refer to the Torah and Gospels as “ a confirmation of what IS before it” You need to take the Bible seriously.


3. You claim that “Jesus never claims to be God in any text”
You are clearly wrong.

A) John 8:53-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

People challeng Jesus because he said “if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
In response to their challenge he says
- “God is my Father”
- “Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
- “ before Abraham was born, I AM”
His hearers understood exactly what he claimed (equality / identity with God) and wanted to kill Him.

B) John 10:24--33
24 . . .If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. . . .
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

Here again Jesus’ audience understand that he is claiming to be God. He says he told them plainly (v 25) but they would not believe. This time they had no doubt about his claim. Their charge against him is “You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”(v 33)

C) John 9:35-38 records Jesus’ claim to be “Son of Man” and accept worship.
35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
Son of man is a messianic term.

If you were not aware of these scriptures, I am happy to point them out to you.
If you claim that Jesus’ audience is wrong in their understanding of His words, that takes a special type of hubris and denial to claim that you understand his words better than his audience.

These references are proof that Jesus did claim to be God. There is other evidence as well. [2]

4) In round 1 (paragraph 1) you state
When He was about to be crucified He did not say Crucify me, I will die for your sins
I’m glad you mention that. I think you underestimate the power and wisdom of God. If you and I were in a chess game I would think you a fool if you told me your strategy before you moved. God is more wise than that.

In Mark 10:32-34, Jesus tells his disciples the plan.
And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. 34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”

Again in Matthew 26:1-2 he lets them know the plan.
Not only did Jesus tell the events in advance, but he told the reason in advance in John 3:14-17
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


5) You say Jesus feared death. In John 10 he tells how he will lay it down AND take it up again by his own desire and authority. John 10:11; 14-18
11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

6) “If Jesus was the Son of God, why didn't he come down from the cross.”
Jesus tells that the cross was a part of his purpose. Coming down from the cross would be a failure, not success. Look at John 12:27-28
27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

7) “Those miracles were metaphorical” - wrong
Those who investigated the miracles found evidence. They ate bread, drank wine, walked, spoke, had sight restored. No intelligent reading can say I believe the NT and then dismiss the miracles. You either dismiss the NT or believe the accounts mean real miracles.
The four Gospels record 37 miracles of Jesus. The closing verse of John's Gospel says, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." (John 21:25, NIV)

If you accept the Quran, this might encourage you.
“ Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.” (Qur’an 3: 49-51).


8) “but probably he never resurrected, he was probably never dead either.”
See point 7 above. If you do not accept the NT evidence or the non Biblical history we need some common authority for discussion.

9) “Jesus survived crucifixion”
Space is limited - look here if you are interested. [3]
Only by totally dismissing all evidence can you claim this.

Jesus claims to be God.
Jesus claims to be God's son.
Jesus takes other messianic titles on himself.
Miracles were signs of his power and truth.
The resurrection is the greatest sign.


[1] Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability -
http://carm.org...

[2] John 1:1, 14; John 20:28; Acts 20:28; Titus 2:13; Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38

[3] Jesus only appeared to have died on the cross
http://carm.org...
Debate Round No. 2
tahir123

Pro

First of all the quran says the Bible has been changed, "Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby." (Holy Quran 2:79)

The Bible has been changed, although it was written not too many hundreds of years after Jesus and does give us an understanding on how Jesus' life was like, it has been tampered with and people have added the stuff about Jesus being God and doing literal miracles.

Constantine changed the Bible and edited it to talk about Jesus being God and doing miracles, so all the verses you quoted are wrong, because they were inserted later when the Bible was changed.

But you missed several important points.

I logically proved that Jesus was not God.

and the foundation for my argument is Logic not the bible

Jesus cannot be God and Man at the same time because you can't have an infinite and finite being at the same time and same relationship.

If Jesus was God why didn't he come down from the cross?

God can't die, how could he have died and then resurrected if he was God?

God is eternal, and doesn't need to eat, drink, or poop, Jesus did all of those, therefore Jesus isn't God.

I can also prove that Jesus didn't die on the cross, because they never broke his bones and the other two people were still alive, so Jesus was probably alive also.

When they pierced Jesus' side blood came out, proving he was alive. (again I believe the Bible is reliable only with the parts that make sense, not the fictitious parts about Jesus being God which were inserted later into the bible)

I proved that Jesus didn't die on the cross.

His followers then saved him and he migrated to India and Kashmir in search of the Lost Sheep of Israel, and died in Kashmir.

Jesus' body is right there in Kashmir as I have proved in round 2, therefore Jesus is dead and therefore neither God nor the son of God.

That is my ultimate proof, If Jesus is dead He can't be God or the Son of God

now prove that wrong Con?

I have met the burden of proof by proving that Jesus is dead and therefore not God, and in order for you to win this debate you must prove Jesus is A. alive, and B. Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, and C. is controlling the universe. Until you can prove that Jesus is not God as I have proven.

and you have to prove to me logically or physically that Jesus is God or the Son of God and is still alive

don't give me any Bible mumbo jumbo, because as I already proved it has been changed and the verses that say Jesus was God have been fabricated, only the ones that make logical sense are true.

1.Jesus claims to be God.
2. Jesus claims to be God's son.
3. Jesus takes other messianic titles on himself.
4. Miracles were signs of his power and truth.
5. The resurrection is the greatest sign.

1. Jesus never says I am God so he doesn't and even if he did there is no proof he was God, and the verses that "suggest" that he is God have been fabricated
2. How can he be both God and God's son that is a contradiction. You can't be your own son and give birth to your self
3. So what anyone can claim to be the Messiah, but that doesn't prove Jesus is God or the Son of God, the true Messiah of this age is Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
4. The Miracles were metaphorical they did not really happend, if they did show me proof outside the bible that they really happened, besides Jesus says if you believe him, you can do greater miracles.
5. Jesus did not rise from the dead, he was never dead on the cross as I have proved, He survived crucifixion and migrated to Kashmir and died there, and since he is forever dead, he can not be God or the Son of God.

I have met the burden of proof by proving that Jesus is dead therefore he is neither God nor the Son of God. Amen
gordonjames

Con

Thank you for taking time to read arguments.
It has been fun for me to search out the textual evidence to refute your claims.

You say “I have met the burden of proof by proving that Jesus is dead therefore he is neither God nor the Son of God.”

I am glad that your recognize your responsibility for BOP.
Thank you for your summary “Jesus is dead therefore he is neither God nor the Son of God”

I asked you in the comments to give some references as evidence of your claims.
You refused to give any reference.
You made unsubstantiated claims that sources were not reliable.
You claim that the only accept the “source, logic and common sense”

Here is my logical response to your presentation.
(My presentation on the resolution follows)

1. You reject recorded history as a source about historical matters.
Your unfounded opinions are not relevant in this debate.

2. You accept many of my points that refute your stated opinions.
By either agreement, or by not responding you have forfeited the majority of this debate.


3. Your most clear argument is most clearly false.
There is no evidence or logic to your claim that “Jesus survived crucifixion and moved to Kashmir, where he really died, and we have his body there”.

4. You have failed to prove your claim. You had the BOP
Logic dictates that you lose this debate.

Some evidence of the 4 points above.


1. You reject recorded history as a source about historical matters.
Your unfounded opinions are not relevant in this debate.
A) You bring up the Bible as a source in the first three lines of every round yet you switch to claim the Bible is not a valid source when I present Jesus words and actions from the Bible.
B) You claim “The only sources we have of Jesus is the Bible and other texts which didn't make it into the Bible.” When I present historical and Qu’ran proof that this is false you switch your argument.
C) You first arguments is “ In none of those books does Jesus ever claims, ‘I am God worship me’”. Jesus claims to be “the Son of God”, “Messiah” and more. God The Father also states “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” You reject these clear, major points of the Gospel saying the Bible is not 100% reliable.
D) You take a position on history that no serious historian can accept when you say:
“ Jesus did not rise from the dead, he was never dead on the cross . . . , He survived crucifixion and migrated to Kashmir”, and “Jesus survived crucifixion and moved to Kashmir, where he really died, and we have his body there”

2. You accept many of my points that refute your stated opinions.
By either agreement, or by not responding you have forfeited the majority of this debate.
A) To my evidence for Jesus outside the Bible you respond - “Yes, you are right there are other sources that mention Jesus” [round 2 opening]
B) To my quotes of Jesus own words that he is “Son of God”, “Messiah”, “God”, “I AM” [the personal name for God revealed to Moses] you did not respond. You simply questioned the “100% accuracy” of the Bible. You dropped any debate of these points.
C) You want to selectively remove my points from the scripture. This shows you agree on the meaning of my points, so you reject them in the same way you reject history. When you say “don't give me any Bible mumbo jumbo, because as I already proved it has been changed and the verses that say Jesus was God have been fabricated” you agree with me in scripture Jesus says “I AM God”.
D) more examples deleted for space.

3. Your most clear argument is most clearly false.
There is no evidence or logic to your claim that “Jesus survived crucifixion and moved to Kashmir, where he really died, and we have his body there”.
A) Historical evidence for Jesus’ death by crucifixion.
Tacitus - “Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius”
Josephus - “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
Mara Bar-Serapion - This pagan wrote a letter to his son after the fall of Jerusalem referring to the retribution that followed the unjust treatment of three wise men: Socrates, Pythagoras, and "the wise king" of the Jews. [1] [2]
B) Lack of evidence for Jesus not dying on the cross.
C) Lack of evidence for Jesus living and dying in Kashmir
D) Lack of evidence for Jesus’ bodily remains being in Kashmir

4. You have failed to prove your claim. You had the BOP
Logic dictates that you lose this debate.

Back to the resolution and the normal process of an evidence based debate . . .

To the resolution “Jesus was not the God or Son of God” you have the BOP.
You have the mistaken idea that your simply claiming a thing to be true constitutes proof.

You claim to have proved the following:
a) “the miracles were metaphorical” (Round1)
b) “he never resurrected, he was probably never dead either.” (Round1)
- No evidence was given of these fringe claims, just your opinion

d) “in none of them does Jesus claim to be God.” (Round 2)
- You must have missed my Round 1 - It was your duty to read and respond
d) “The Bible was changed though by Constantine” (Round 2)
- No evidence was given of this fringe claim. Read here for arguments against this.[3]
e) “It has been proven Jesus died there. The tomb faces Jerusalem like in Jewish tradition and has foot prints with holes in them, just like the feet of a crucified person,” (Round 1)
- This is proof? This is not even evidence.

f) “ it would require him to have the chromosomes of his father (God) and his mother (Mary), now how can God have chromosomes if He is immaterial?” (Round 3)
- Tell me what you know of Jesus’ genetics. Or tell me how God is limited by what you know or understand. God is all powerful. God can do anything he wants. I did not expect me, a Christian to have to convince an Ahmadi Muslim that God is omnipotent.
g) “That is my ultimate proof, If Jesus is dead He can't be God or the Son of God”
- You have give no proof or even decent evidence or reference to any of your claims.
You have not proved any of these points.
You have made unsubstantiated claims.
Worse, you have ignored the evidence that prove your claim false.

There are many more points I wish to refute like your view on miracles and your claim that “we have his body in Kashmir” but without any evidence to consider for your position I must simply dismiss it as unproven.




With apologies for introducing new material in the second half of round 3

[1] Evidence of Greek Philosophical Concepts in the Writings of Ephrem the Syrian by Ute Possekel 1999 ISBN 90-429-0759-2
[2] Studying the Historical Jesus: Evaluations of the State of Current Research edited by Bruce Chilton, Craig A. Evans 1998 ISBN 90-04-11142-5
Note - The Craig Evans book is really good. I could not find an online reference or e-book but You can probably get it by inter library loan, and it is well worth the effort.
[3] http://www.christian-history.org...


Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by IslamAhmadiyya 3 years ago
IslamAhmadiyya
This video is enough proof that Jesus (as) was not God or the son of God.
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
Yeah I tried to post the link but it posts the videos instead, just go on youtube and search Jesus in India or Jesus in Kashmir, google it also, you will find the proof, I want to congratulate you for winning this debate, although if you do the research you will find out that I was right, just google Jesus's tomb in kashmir and you will see the truth about Jesus how he is forever dead and not God nor the Son of God, and I would invite you to convert to Ahmadiyyat if you find out that is right for you, amen and blessings
Posted by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
@tahir123
The video's you posted don't work for me.

Can you give me the link?
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
and I did meet the burden of proof, you can go to Kashmir and see the dead body of Jesus yourself
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
I would accept the most reliable source, logic, and common sense, which proves that Jesus is not God or the Son of God, and no I don't need to use the quran to prove that Jesus was not God.
Posted by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
Because you do not take the NT at accurate (another way of saying it is not a valid source), is there a source you would accept? Would you accept quotes from the Quran? This is a serious question, not an insult.
Posted by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
Hi!
I noticed you only have one reference.

You will likely lose points for sources.

Also, most people are unwilling to believe your assertions like :

"The Bible and these other sources were written years after Jesus lived, so they are not 100 percent reliable"

or

"The Bible was changed though by Constantine, so the parts where Jesus was worshipped were later inserted."

if yo want to cite some references here in the comments before I post my round 2 I will not be so harsh against your round 2 claims.
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
There I have changed it, now debate me someone who is brave enough
Posted by tahir123 3 years ago
tahir123
I will see in changing the title, but it looks to me that all you people are too scared to debate me in this simple argument, because the fact is that Jesus was not God or the Son of God
Posted by JustinAMoffatt 3 years ago
JustinAMoffatt
You're saying you can prove that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, right? Change the resolution to "Jesus was not the Son of God". Take the Pro side (and the BOP, accordingly) and defend your position, then. And either allow Biblical sources or not (which I don't see how you couldn't in a debate about Jesus). You use the Bible, after you claim it's inaccurate, to portray how Jesus wasn't the Son of God. Finally, Jesus' existence in history isn't disputed among the historical community, so you may wanna research that.

If you wanna take my suggestions, and set up for a good and challenging debate to defend what YOU believe, then let me know.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Juan_Pablo 3 years ago
Juan_Pablo
tahir123gordonjamesTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I was expecting Tahir to present a more convincing case for his position. I think Tahir can build his argument better for future debates. I award Con with the win simply because he provided my sources and argued them more convincingly. Even though I do not believe Jesus is not the special, solitary son of God the New Testament makes him out to be, I awarded the win to Con on the basis that Jesus IS a son of God, just like we are all sons and daughters of God. Good job to the both of you though.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 3 years ago
MrJosh
tahir123gordonjamesTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: PRO accepted the BOP, but failed to meet it; his most convincing arguments are not convincing since they were not backed up with sources. Arguments to CON. Sources to CON.