The Instigator
brant.merrell
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
theseus23
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Jill Stein would make a better president than Bernie Sanders

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/24/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 501 times Debate No: 91744
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

brant.merrell

Pro

I believe Jill Stein would make a better president than Bernie Sanders, by

- using more economically productive methods for wealth reallocation,
- addressing human rights more expansively throughout the globe, and
- taking stronger, more efficient measures to curb and adjust to climate change.

This broad topic need not be limited to these bullets, I am simply providing ground on which we can begin.

If you do not meet the debate's requirements, I am happy to override them after you demonstrate in the comments section that you can take the topic seriously.

My thanks in advance,

~ Brant M.
theseus23

Con

I accept your challenge.
I would like to note, that "better" is subjective.
Better as her ideals are "better" or that she will get more of the ideals done. (i.e. would she be a better unilateral leader or a president).
are we taking for the discussion that those ideals you mentioned are good or are they debatable?
Are they at least debate for the extent that she will be a better president "While that is good, that amount is not good"
I look forward to this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
brant.merrell

Pro

A basic premise of the concept of "persuasion" is that a subjective metric is still a metric. Therefore if not for subjectivity, why have debates? I will not define "good president" any further.

Sanders paints economics as a great well of wealth from which to draw water, and distributed to the rest of the community. Currency, however, is not resource. Hoarded wealth is out of circulation, and re-integrating it into society does little more than would printing more money. Providing more cash with which to purchase groceries does not increase our natural capacity to produce and distribute groceries.

The Green platform - of which Stein is a generic representative - seeks to invest more heavily in transportation, education, and climate response, through which our economy’s total capacity is heightened.

I await my opposition’s response.

theseus23

Con

This "hoarded" wealth you speak of.
he wants to tax it then use that money to fund things like national healthcare. that isn't re instituting it into society, because it is not within the publics hands.

although your point is great and I wish more people understood that.

Bernie also wants to change the tract where new income goes to by increasing the minimum, thereby, instead of taking form one and giving to another as your propose, he simply wants to change the channels it takes, thereby changing who receives the income.
Debate Round No. 2
brant.merrell

Pro

Hoarded wealth *currency.*

It’s easy to imagine that a broken machine simply needs to be refueled, but our health system is already stumbling over its own size, which is how we spend more per-capita to live shorter lives than other developed nations.

Inflating it with more money does nothing to clear the congestion of preventable diseases that clog the lines to the doctor’s office. Heart disease and diabetes need to be addressed by subsidizing positive dietary and exercise behaviors for the lower and working classes, which are currently victims of conditions that render positive decisions more expensive.

Wealth inequality, health, and resources are interconnected. Sanders is strongly motivated to solve them, but passion does not solve a puzzle. The Green platform spells out a multi-faceted approach to making complementary improvements in each category, which is why a Stein agenda can solve problems more effectively than a Sanders one.

theseus23

Con

theseus23 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
brant.merrell

Pro

Let us consider the Green Platform's Chapter III-D (Transportation) [1]:

Support for cyclists and pedestrians increases cardio activity and cuts at heart disease, diabetes, and obesity. The efficiency of transit cuts the demand and price of fuel, ergo consumer prices for shipped goods. Reduced auto subsidies raise new vehicles to their proper market-defined prices, raising demand for mechanics (whose jobs cannot be shipped overseas) to increase the lifespan of existing vehicles. Drawing risky drivers onto public transit makes roads roomier and safer for good drivers, and allows passengers to read, socialize, think, work, and devote their mental energies to non-driving activities.

Sanders would generally raise and reinvest revenue, but Stein would assess resources beyond the human construct of currency, guided by an empathetic, populist, and practical platform of 40+ sections besides transportation.

1. http://www.gp.org...;

theseus23

Con

I apologize for forfeiting the previous round. (i also apologize for grammer, I am currently listening to Gary Johnson vs. Jill stein debate from 2012 on RT)

Actually one of the reasons we spend more per-capita to live is from crony capitalism. From the money in politics that for example, in medicare the government is not allowed to negotiate for lower drug prices (which is ridiculous). that's one reason it costs so much, and because with a socialist healthcare system the doctors are limited in what they can and can't give you. For example, if you go to the hospital for a broken toe, often the Dr. will say well it might be infected, take these antibiotics, lets also run this exam etc. etc. This is what causes prices to skyrocket. Jill Stein instead want's every single health issue covered, this would cost way more with basically a blank check. Doctor's would prescribe even more. Similarly how college charge more because students have un limited loans.
please link to her platforms.
Debate Round No. 4
brant.merrell

Pro

I've mostly advocated for the Green platform, which I linked to in the previous round. But I'm happy to link to Stein's platform[1].

This in mind, it seems ironic that con's rebuttal should be a reference to crony capitalism. The need for reigning in crony capitalism is a starting premise for all Greens.

My choice of Greens over (socialist) Democrats is that they economically ground themselves according to resources, rather than regarding currency as the resource.

I appreciate con accepting this debate. I recommend the forfeiture ignored by our audience, because I believe time constraints should have a weekly option, to encourage participation for debaters who work more than 40 hours a week. It's a busy economy with no rest for the wicked until we close our eyes for good.

This topic deserves more time, characters, rounds, and debates.

My thanks again,

~ Brant M.

1. http://www.jill2016.com...
theseus23

Con

I will accept another expanded debate/rounds/characters. law school papers/internships, have kept me busy.

I think you misunderstand Bernie's platform, though he incorrectly used the term democratic socialist, that is not what is platform is.

Let us begin by stating probably around 50% of the two platforms are identical. break up big banks etc. However, although Jill Stein is brilliant, she hasn't put out nearly the planes Bernie has, leading me to believe he would make a better president.
What is her tax policy? How will she pay for medicare for all? In her medicare for all, everything is covered, including abortions for any reason. that is one example of something that is ordinarily not covered in medicare for all making it vastly more expansive than other countries.
Students have accumulated trillions of dollars of student debt, that they have willingly acquired. How will she pay to have this debt taken care of, and why? why not car/home loan debt?

Jill Stein needs more detail.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
I like your round 2. I was worried I'd have to spend the whole debate defending my point about money not being a resource in and of itself, and painting a picture of an economy with finite resources. But your description of incomes as 'channels' which need to be redirected neatly acknowledges that point as a basic premise.

I had to re-read your paragraph that mentioned healthcare a couple of times. I kept imagining healthcare as part of 'society', which made the paragraph confusing at first. It took a minute to realize you were saying Sanders plans on doing exactly what I claimed made Stein unique - using public infrastructure as the medium for resource allocation.

I agree. I'll have to develop my argument a little better in round 3.

Also I can't help hoping you've relinquished a point in spelling and grammar!
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
I recently extended Stein versus Clinton and Trump, respectively, after they had expired.

Apparently it's a lot easier to find someone to advocate for Sanders than for either frontrunner of the grand two parties.
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
I thank theseus23 for accepting this debate.
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
rusty-q - I look forward to debate a true Trump believer. The challenge is here, if you can stomach it http://www.debate.org...
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
3_LITTLE_birds - you pretty much got my argument backwards, probably because I haven't written it on DBO yet, and your psychic abilities are perhaps a bit out of practice.
Posted by rusty-q 1 year ago
rusty-q
ANYBODY would make a better president than Bernie Sanders!! The only way I'll ever "Feel the Bern" is if my house burns down and I'm in it. :)
Posted by 3_LITTLE_birds 1 year ago
3_LITTLE_birds
Your argument is based on Stein having more audacious intentions. You assume that this would lead to greater changes in these policy areas.
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