The Instigator
brant.merrell
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
42lifeuniverseverything
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Jill Stein would make a better president than Hillary Clinton

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
42lifeuniverseverything
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/2/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,187 times Debate No: 91743
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (30)
Votes (1)

 

brant.merrell

Pro

I believe Jill Stein would make a better president than Hillary Clinton, by

- Establishing honest, respectful communication with American citizens and allies;
- Protecting the natural ecosystems of the planet,
- Investing in art, science, education, and public infrastructure; and
- Heeding the voices of financially independent academics.

This broad topic need not be limited to these bullets, I am simply providing ground on which we can begin.

If you do not meet the debate's requirements, I am happy to override them after you demonstrate in the comments section that you can take the topic seriously.

My thanks in advance,

~ Brant M.
42lifeuniverseverything

Con

Wow I've been unbelievably busy! I graduated from high school yesterday so that is part of it. For now I am going to accept this challenge. I can't wait to debate this with you, and yes I may be a tea party person arguing for liberals, but I will argue Hillary Clinton is a better presidential choice that Jill Stein. I can't wait to see your arguments!
Debate Round No. 1
brant.merrell

Pro

Congrats on graduation and escape! And I appreciate your willingness to debate independently from your political beliefs - it is an attribute of a strong mind!

Stein’s promotion of the Green Platform commits to strengthening the relevance and participation of the voter at all levels of government. This shifts the process of debate and compromise from being a back-room or committee activity by an elite few to a national process of reflection and widespread self-correction. Clinton weakens the ability of parties to debate each other, and strengthens their ability to hate each other. Her selling points to voters include both a strong history of fighting and blaming republicans and of compromising or working with them. When republicans are correct, she owes such information to her constituents; otherwise, it is her responsibility to take advantage of the truth, the strongest ally for which any advocate could ask. But she continually compromises on everything from invading foreign nations to reforming taxation, while insisting to her base that her hands are tied by the evil and ignorance of the opposite party.

For a specific example, let us observe the issue of climate change. Though Stein proposes a more radical response to climate change than does Clinton, under president Stein we can expect an honest discussion in which liberals and conservatives discover the valid details of each other’s beliefs. Under president Clinton we can expect liberal leaders to continue disparaging the intelligence of conservatives, sieging their media and discussion into Fox News and other boxes which liberal viewers can categorically dismiss, and broadcasting scornful responses to only the most vulnerable of conservative voices. And yet in written policies, we can expect Clinton to continue opposing carbon taxes and support only meager subsidies for alternative energy. By contrast, if we observe the tea party’s powerful proposals to cut back the national debt, we must admit that if it were persuaded on the urgency of climate change, it would advocate sacrifices far more drastic than anything Clinton proposes.

Therefore if climate change is an existential threat, Stein proposes the kind of economic overhaul that can respond to such a threat and the legitimate discussion to answer the questions of doubters, while Clinton ties our hands with strawman reliance on an evil or ignorant political enemy. If climate change is a relatively weak physical occurrence, Stein offers the kind of honest dialogue that would shed light on our misconceptions, while Clinton preoccupies us with supposedly anti-earth republicans, inhibiting our ability to focus on issues such as poverty, education, and debt.

Regardless of the issue being discussed or the radical position taken by each party, honest disagreement is always healthier for our nation than dishonest agreement.


My thanks again to con - I look forward to your rebuttal!

42lifeuniverseverything

Con

Many thanks for the well wishes to my opponent! I am glad we can debate this topic and hopefully shed light on the universe one debate at a time!

I will first talk about my arguments why Hillary Clinton is better, then will explain why your reasons for Jill Stein's superiority are not true. Let's begin.

1. Hillary Clinton has political experience.

One of the things that makes a good president, is prior experience. This study: http://www.electoral-vote.com...; was done on experience vs greatness in the presidency, and it is seen that the split is about 50-50 statistically between great experienced presidents and great inexperienced presidents.

But besides that, the number of years of experience for Hillary is startlingly large compared to Jill Stein. According to Biography.com Hillary Clinton "She later served as first lady from 1993 to 2001, and then as a U.S. senator from 2001 to 2009.... After winning the national election, Obama appointed Clinton secretary of state. She was sworn in as part of his cabinet in January 2009 and served until 2013." That is 20 years of experience. http://www.biography.com...

Jill Stein, has according to NBC news, experience dating from 2002. '"The Green Party approached me to run for governor in 2002 and foolishly I accepted."' http://www.nbcnews.com...

If you are counting, that is 20 years for Hillary, and roughly 14 for Jill Stein. So that difference in six years can mean having the contacts and deals in Washington to be succesful.

2. Clinton understands how to connect.

Jill Stein is not very popular. This website compares them. http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com... One statistic I will comment on is Facebook and Twitter likes. Clinton has 3.7 Million Facebook likes, and 6.6 Million Twitter followers. Jill's numbers are 215,000 on Facebook and 100,000 on Twitter. This statistic speaks volumes to the popularity and ability of Clinton to unite America. Jill Stein is relatively unknown and could do little to fix this country in a major way if she was president.

Finally some responses, with limited characters :).

1. Your argument on strengthened participation has no sources, so it is not credible yet. Voting is not an elite activity, because votes cannot be actually bought as that is against the law and people have gone to jail for that offense before. Clinton right now is actually a merger of people because I have sources and you do not. Yet.

2. When has she said Republicans are incorrect when they were right? I don't recall an instance, except maybe Benghazi and the evidence there is very scant of wrongdoing.

3. Compromise is a very valuable trait of a president when used well. I see no problem with her compromise. Give specifics please.

4. Your climate change argument has no sources.



Awaiting your arguments eagerly!
Debate Round No. 2
brant.merrell

Pro

I must apologize for a round so short as to nearly warrant a manual forfeiture. But I must insist that my Round 2 argument has been largely misunderstood. Let me list what I am NOT arguing:

- that Climate Change is or is not a modern priority,
- that republicans have ever been correct or incorrect,
- that compromise is bad.

I explored two possible realities for climate change - one in which it is a priority, and one in which we are misled by the politics of fear. I argued that Stein promotes more legitimate outcomes in both scenarios.

I explored two possible realities for republicans - one in which they are correct, and one in which they are incorrect. I leave it to my audience and opposition to hypothesize on how often each scenario occurs. I argued that non-republicans can EITHER blame republicans while disagreeing with them, OR give credit where it is due while compromising with them. I argued that Stein upholds such a pattern of behavior, while Clinton does the opposite.

Clinton's experience is undeniable, but it amounts do twenty years of experience becoming the second least-popular presidential nominee in the history of presidential politics, second only to Trump. It includes deregulating to produce an economic meltdown and invading Iraq - perhaps the two decisions the United States regrets the most about the last three decades. Does her experience hinder her ability to recognize prior mistakes? Her ability to learn new information?

None of our great presidents have been as experienced as Clinton or as inexperienced as Trump. It stands to reason that while the metric of experience cannot set Stein apart as preferable, Clinton's more-of-the-same experience can only reap the benefits of being so . . . same.

Thanks again for accepting this debate, and apologies for the short hasty round.
42lifeuniverseverything

Con

Sorry for the delay, I was busy this weekend.

"I must insist that my Round 2 argument has been largely misunderstood." "I explored two possible realities for climate change" "I explored two possible realities for republicans".

What I am assuming you mean is that I missed the intent behind the argument, not that I misunderstood the whole argument. Because I didn't misunderstand you, I guess I just didn't catch the meaning you intended to convey. That might be a mistake on both of us. Let's put it past us.

"Clinton's experience is undeniable, but it amounts do twenty years of experience becoming the second least-popular presidential nominee in the history of presidential politics, second only to Trump."

Unfortunately Trump is not that unpopular. Also, not all of Clinton's political experience amounts to this one facet of her politics today. That is non sequiter argument or a logical fallacy. You assume that since she must be the second least-popular presidential nominee in history, then she must have gotten that from her political experience. Because you have no source to link the causation, my point with a source still stands.

"It includes deregulating to produce an economic meltdown and invading Iraq - perhaps the two decisions the United States regrets the most about the last three decades. Does her experience hinder her ability to recognize prior mistakes? Her ability to learn new information?"

This is two-sided. First, there is no proof that it was her who ordered the Iraq invasion. Second, there is no proof she was the cause of the 2008 financial crisis. Sources would be appreciated before these claims are to be believed.

Also, her experience would help her know what is politically smart far better than Jill Stein. And she is able to learn new information, she just sometimes chooses not to. We all can learn new information if we want to. That ability is always there.

"None of our great presidents have been as experienced as Clinton or as inexperienced as Trump."

This is 100% false and proves you failed to read my source on presidential candidates experience.

"It stands to reason that while the metric of experience cannot set Stein apart as preferable, Clinton's more-of-the-same experience can only reap the benefits of being so . . . same."

Yep, Stein is definitely not set apart. And no, Clinton will not be adding to this so called "sameness" that you allude to.

A couple points.

1. Sources are on my side so far.

I have presented 4, my opponent has presented none.

2. Hillary Clinton is a safe choice.

Jill Stein is a risk being a relatively unknown candidate. In comparison we can predict what Hillary will do. So Hillary is far safer of a bet.

3. Recognize that Hillary would make a better president.

Experience, predictability, ability to connect, ability to compromise, and dedication to politics itself make her the better choice.

Eagerly awaiting your arguments!

42


Debate Round No. 3
brant.merrell

Pro

My argument was that Stein promotes legitimate discussion between political parties, and compromises on the condition that compromise is warranted by the issues, while Clinton seeks to defeat the opposite party at the expense of the discussion and issues in question. My specific example was climate change. It is possible you understood this, but your rebuttal stated that my "climate change argument has no sources." And though you have proposed we move on from that, you have not rebutted the point. Is this a dropped point?



Trump is not that unpopular? America's distaste for both Trump and Clinton is record-breaking.


http://fivethirtyeight.com...



It is Clinton's twenty-year career that has caused me to dislike her; it includes her vague responses to specific questions and her obsession with republican opponents in response to difficult questions. I cannot prove that my reasons for dislike her are equivalent to those of all other Americans, but the causal mechanism exists to explain the valid evidence that she is unpopular.



And no, there is "no proof that it was her who ordered the Iraq invasion." In fact, there is proof that it was George W. Bush who ordered the Iraq invasion. I did not claim she "ordered" the Iraq invasion, I used the word "support." And she did side with the Congressional majority in voting for the invasion of Iraq.



There is no proof that "she was the cause" of the financial meltodwn. But the financial meltdown is widely attributed to deregulation, which she supported until after the 2008 meltdown.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com...



My argument about Stein was not about experience, I merely responded to the theory that a politician with a few decades of experience must necessarily be better than a politician with only a few years of experience. Good policy relies largely on being in touch with realities outside the political world, and appealing to political experience is largely an appeal to authority.



Granted, we can predict what Clinton will do. I have predicted that under president Clinton we can expect liberal leaders to continue disparaging the intelligence of conservatives, sieging their media and discussion into Fox News and other boxes which liberal viewers can categorically dismiss, and broadcasting scornful responses to only the most vulnerable of conservative voices. What are your predictions about a Clinton presidency?

42lifeuniverseverything

Con

Let's finish this debate!

"My argument was that Stein promotes legitimate discussion between political parties, and compromises on the condition that compromise is warranted by the issues, while Clinton seeks to defeat the opposite party at the expense of the discussion and issues in question"

An argument that had no evidence/experts to back up the idea that these traits existed in the candidates. Because of this, the argument is not credible. Whether it was valid content I would have debated if you had sources, but with a limited character limit, I will confine myself to credibility on this.

"And though you have proposed we move on from that, you have not rebutted the point. Is this a dropped point?"

It is not a dropped point. Once again I was attacking the lack of sources because of the need for credibility on whether the candidates have these traits. We cannot abide by your say so in this debate. We need extra witnesses to testify to what you are saying. And you do not have them.

"Trump is not that unpopular? America's distaste for both Trump and Clinton is record-breaking."

If you look in Round 3 you said that "[Clinton had] twenty years of experience becoming the second least-popular presidential nominee in the history of presidential politics, second only to Trump" The US never was a different government than presidency, so I took you to mean in the world history annuls of presidential politics, Trump is the most unpopular candidate. Maybe he is in the US, but not throughout all of history.

"I cannot prove that my reasons for dislike her are equivalent to those of all other Americans, but the causal mechanism exists to explain the valid evidence that she is unpopular."

This argument is your opinion, therefore it is not credible. What experts would support your "causal mechanism"?

"It includes deregulating to produce an economic meltdown and invading Iraq"

I know you didn't say order, but your words show you didn't say support either. So I took the ambiguous "invading Iraq" and drew my own meaning out. Is there something wrong with that?

"But the financial meltdown is widely attributed to deregulation, which she supported until after the 2008 meltdown."

Actually a good argument can be made for the meltdown occuring because demand caught up with supply in the housing market. Deregulation was not the only reason, so why pin the whole meltdown on Clinton with this little shred of her platform? Also the huffington post is a blog. So how can I know if that person is an expert.

"Good policy relies largely on being in touch with realities outside the political world"

It most definitely can, but it also relies on connections to help pass good legislation. They go hand in hand, and Stein lacks experience that is neccessary.

In conclusion, my opponent has many reasons why my arguments don't work, and few evidential or expert reasons why his arguments make sense. Because I brought up many sources and therfore stand credible I ask you to

VOTE CON.


Debate Round No. 4
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
Thanks for a great debate, 42lifeuniverseverything; And ThinkBig, for the RFD! Sorry I've been too busy to log onto the site for the past month.
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 1 year ago
42lifeuniverseverything
Thank you for a very insightful RFD ThinkBig!
Posted by ThinkBig 1 year ago
ThinkBig
==RFD Part 2: Sources==

I originally gave con the sources point. However, upon further inspection I have decided to leave the source point as a tie.
Posted by ThinkBig 1 year ago
ThinkBig
== RFD part 1: Arguments ==

This was an excellent debate and both sides showed superb conduct and no blatant spelling errors from either side warrant taking away the s/g point.

Arguments:

The resolution is Jill Stein will make a better President than Hillary Clinton. While what makes a good president is subjective, Pro argued his case by comparing Clinton and Stein's stances on the issues, whereas con focuses on Clinton's experience and her ability to lead and get things done.

Pro argues that Stein will make a better President because of her commitment to fighting Global Warming, investing in our infrastructure, and that Clinton is simply more of the same establishment. Con counters by noting that pro did not provide any sources to back up his claims, nor did he present any evidence.

One of con's strongest arguments was Clinton's experience. Pro concedes that she has far more experience and counters by stating that because of her experience and establishment, she will simply be more of the same. Why is more of the same bad? Pro does not answer that question and it is important to be able to tie her with being established.

Con argues that perhaps the establishment is best. After all, we know what we are going to get with Clinton. We know what we are going to expect. However, Jill Stein has not spent a single day in public office and is unpredictable.

The one line that swayed me most was this one:

"Good policy relies largely on being in touch with realities outside the political world"

"It most definitely can, but it also relies on connections to help pass good legislation. They go hand in hand, and Stein lacks experience that is relies on connections to help pass good legislation. They go hand in hand, and Stein lacks experience that is neccessary."
Con wins the arguments.
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 1 year ago
42lifeuniverseverything
Phew that was a long debate. Thanks for a good one Brant!
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 1 year ago
42lifeuniverseverything
Looking forward to a good round 4!
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 1 year ago
42lifeuniverseverything
I will have more offense (offense vs defense)-oriented arguments in Round 3, because I didn't realize the small character limit until I got halfway through the argument haha.
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
You could just use the first round to accept the debate.
Posted by brant.merrell 1 year ago
brant.merrell
Don't apologize to *me*; I've never been early in my life.
Posted by 42lifeuniverseverything 1 year ago
42lifeuniverseverything
Things got much busier than expected so the first round will be up on Saturday. Sorry about the delay!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by ThinkBig 1 year ago
ThinkBig
brant.merrell42lifeuniverseverythingTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD given in comments.