The Instigator
ilovgoogle
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points
The Contender
Xer
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

John Adams should replace Jefferson on the nickel.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
ilovgoogle
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/20/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,085 times Debate No: 9270
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (25)
Votes (5)

 

ilovgoogle

Pro

First round introductions -----------
John Adam is one our great founding fathers, and one that is not honored properly. Placing his face on the 10 cent coin would do this man justice.
----------------------------------
I will answer any questions my opponent has in the first found then proceed onto my arguments. I do not believe definitions are necessary as this is a pretty straightforward topic, but then again this debate.org so I reserve the right clarify the topic should I deem necessary.
Xer

Con

I thank my opponent for the debate and wish him good luck.

=========
DEFINITIONS:
=========

John Adams - 2nd President of the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

should - used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

replace -
: to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor
: to put something new in the place of
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Thomas Jefferson - 3rd President of the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

nickel - a five-cent coin, representing a unit of currency equaling one-twentieth, or five hundredths, of one United States dollar.
http://en.wikipedia.org...(United_States_coin)

==========
CONTENTIONS:
==========

1) Thomas Jefferson was the main author of the Declaration of Independence [1][2][3], the most important document in the history of the United States, as it officially established the United States.

2) As President, Thomas Jefferson presided over two of the most important events in the history of the United States- The Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis and Clark Expedition [1][4]. Without the Louisiana Purchase, the United States would have very likely never gone westward and would still have the original colonies they started with. The Lewis and Clark Expedition gained the information necesarry for Americans to go westward.

3) Thomas Jefferson beat John Adams in his reelection bid. Americans clearly knew who the better man was. If John Adams was a better man, he would've beat Thomas Jefferson, but Thomas Jefferson came out victorious. [5]

4) Thomas Jefferson was the main author of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom [1]. The Statute "firmly established the principles of religious freedom and the separation of church and state and provided the basis for the First Amendment's clause on religion." [6]

5) Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration became an enduring statement of human rights: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

6) It would cost money to change the face of the coin from Jefferson to Adams. In the midst of a recession, it is foolish for the US treasury to waste money to print a new face on a nickel. There are much more important issues to deal with than a new face on a nickel.

=======
SOURCES:
=======

[1] http://www.monticello.org...
[2] http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[6] http://www.pbs.org...
Debate Round No. 1
ilovgoogle

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate. I think this should be a good one. I ask that the voters please read all that is being presented to them before voting. Thank you!

Response:
"1) Thomas Jefferson....as it officially established the United States." 5) Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration became an enduring statement of human rights: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Jefferson is generally credited with writing the document, but there's a whole lot more that went into it. In fact it was John Adams that got Jefferson to consider writing a draft to begin with. Jefferson did not volunteer to write the document, it was only after John Adams encouraged him to do so that he did. [1] Jefferson also used most of the Deceleration from the ideas of the Enlightenment. For instance the line "Certain unalienable rights....life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are not new ideas, in fact over 100 years earlier similar words had been spoken by John Locke: "life, health, liberty, or possessions." Even just a month before the draft was written a document containing very similar language had appeared in none other then Jefferson's home colony, Virginia. Written by George Madison is said the following: "enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety." [2] To say Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence is a grave ignorance of historical fact. Add that to the fact it was it was heavily edited by the committee of five which Adams served in. The declaration was being authored 200 years before the signing in the hearts and minds of millions of men.

"2) As President, Thomas Jefferson presided over two of the most important events in the history of the United States- The Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis and Clark Expedition.

It's interesting you "highlight" these points. First I'd like to note that it's hard to give credit to Jefferson merely because they had an opportunity to do something that others did not. Anyone who was the president at the time would've made the Louisiana purchase. Jefferson just merely was at the right place at the right time. I think it should be noted that the purchase and expedition also goes against the very thing Jefferson preached against, big government. To make the very purchase you highlighted Jefferson had to use the very thing he hated Alexander Hamilton for, the national line of credit and debt he argued against! [3]
Jefferson hated debt:
"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...[we will] have no time to think, no means of calling our miss-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers... And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for[ another]... till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery... And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."

But once he was in power he no problem defying his own principles.

3) Thomas Jefferson beat John Adams in his reelection bid. Americans clearly knew who the better man was.

Sure if you consider lying a principle of the better man. When Jefferson was VP he spread many lies about Adams and really just demoralized the guy. [3] Just because he elected does not mean he was the better man. Let's not forget that Adams did win against Jefferson in the election of 1796, making your point void. Also refer to my contention F below.

It would cost money to change the face of the coin from Jefferson to Adams.

In fact just the opposite the printing of John Adams nickels could spur collectors to buy them up and actually turn a profit. This is not uncommon and is called seigniorage. [5]

Now that let's talk about why Adams deserves to be the nickel.
Contentions:
A: He was our first vice president.
B: Father of our 6th president, John Quincy Adams. He also greatly helped educate John Quincy sending him to Russia for his education and helping him learn skills that he would end up using in his presidency.
C: He advocated justice not matter for who and what the cost. He defended the soldiers at the Boston Massacre even though he knew it would hurt his reputation and he wouldn't be paid. He did the impossible and got 6 of the 8 men acquitted and the 2 others only charged with manslaughter down from murder. If he had not been the lawyer the British soldiers would've been falsely prosecuted. The trial was in Boston, the most "revolutionary" of the colonies at the time, and even still he convinced the jury of their innocence. No small feat.
D: He was a man of sacrifice. He knew he had an obligation to his country and he did so without hesitation. He spent most of the revolution in France and Holland trying to secure funding and military equipment for our soldiers back home. For someone who wanted to be on the front lines this must have been tough for him. Not even to mention the fact he had to leave his "greatest adviser" and wife back home, Abagael Adams. But he did so in order to help his country no matter the cost.
E: He was Ambassador to Britain. I mean you've got to feel for this guy. We just destroyed and embarrassed the greatest empire of all time and who do they choose to go meet the man who was the "last to consent to separation", King George III? That's right, John Adams. I think this video says it better then my words ever can.
F: He never waived in the face of public opinion. The country put great pressure on him to enter with France . He didn't want American blood shed and preferred to use the diplomatic route. This greatly effected the election of the 1800 with Jefferson wanting war. During the elections a peace treaty was signed, but due to the slow travel of news this would not be known till after the election. [6]
G: He was against slavery and never owned slaves. He and his wife Abagail fought against slavery and PAID free black men for help on the farm. You could say Jefferson was against slavery. And he was. In words only. Jefferson owned over 200 slaves. [7]
H: John Adams had a HBO mini series that has won more Emmy's then any other miniseries. Ever. Not to mention the 4 Golden globes. If Jefferson is so great then why doesn't he have a HBO series?
I: Adams created the Navy [8]
K: Jefferson is already honored in many other ways. He is on Mount Rushmore, has a memorial at DC, has college named after him, and is on the two dollar bill. What does Adams have at national scale? Nothing. He deserves to be on the nickel.
L: Appointed John Marshal to the supreme court, someone who would very influential in declaring the powers of the court, including judicial review. [9]

Even is you could prove Jefferson is the "better man" that doesn't mean Adams should not be on the nickel. All of our founding fathers are great men and deserve to be honored. As I've said Jefferson is already on the two dollar bill, and has numerous other memorabilia, time to Adams some credit.

Sources:
[1] http://tinyurl.com...
[2] http://tinyurl.com...
[3] http://tinyurl.com...
[4] John Adams by David McCullough
[5] http://tinyurl.com...
[6] http://tinyurl.com...
[7] http://tinyurl.com...
[8] http://tinyurl.com...
[9] http://tinyurl.com...
Xer

Con

=======
DEFENSE:
=======

1) My opponent made some straw men arguments. He argued that since others "edited" the Declaration, that Jefferson's trimumph of writing the whole document is naught. But, that is foolish. Open up almost any political non-fiction book and you will most likely find hundreds of footnotes. The footnotes contributed to the book, but are they more important than the author. The author also has an editor who edits his book and a publisher who also perfects the book. In the end though, the credit is given to the author, the main author, (Thomas Jefferson).

5) My opponent also uses the same logic for Jefferson's statement of human rights: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." He claims that other people have said "similar" statements before. This is true, but the only reason "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." is known to the universe is because Jefferson wrote it in one of the most important documents in the history of man.

Let's look at his logic in another light. Communism was known, but not widely-known before Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote "Manifesto of the Communist Party" to inform the masses about the wonders of Communism. If it wasn't for this writing, Communism would have had little impact on the world. Also, Capitalism was known, but not widely known before Adam Smith wrote the "Wealth of Nations" to inform the masses about the wonders of Capitalism. If it wasn't for this writing, Capitalism would have had little impact on the world, and Mercantilism could very well be the dominant economic theory today.

2) Thomas Jefferson was the Prez who personally went out of his way to send two men (James Monroe and Robert J. Livingston) to France to negotiate with Napoleon. To say that the Louisiana Purchase fell in his lap is ignoring facts.

My opponent also tries to argue that Jefferson hated debt. The Louisiana Purchase (828,800 square miles) was bought for today's equivalent of $213 million. Which equates to 3 cents per acre.

Napoleon Bonaparte, upon completion of the agreement, stated, "This accession of territory affirms forever the power of the United States, and I have given England a maritime rival who sooner or later will humble her pride." [1]

3) My opponent's source for his point 3 rebuttal is a link to the Louisiana Purchase, which has nothing to do with my point. My point stands.

6) Pro talks about seigniorage. Seigniorage has to do with collector coins, not normal coins (ie. nickel). Since the resolution is about the nickel and not collector coins, my point stands.

4) ***My opponent concedes CONTENTION 4.

=========
REBUTTALS:
=========

A: "He was our first vice president." --- How does being the first VP have anything to do with getting on the nickel. Dick Cheney was the 46th VP, should he be on the nickel?

B: "Father of our 6th president..." --- Once again, how does being the father of an important person have anything to do with getting on the nickel. Should George H.W. Bush be on the nickel? He was also Prez, and his son was Prez.

C: "He advocated justice..." Since John Adams won a trial as a lawyer, he deserves to be on the nickel? Sarah Weddington was the lawyer for Jane Roe in Roe vs. Wade and won, a very controversial case. Does that mean Sarah Weddington should be on the nickel?

D: "He was a man of sacrifice..." --- So is every single soldier in the history of the world. Does that mean that a random soldier should be on the nickel?

E: "He was Ambassador to Britain..." --- So what? Just because he served as an Ambassador to a country that the U.S. defeated in war, he deserves to be on the nickel? Should the Ambassador to Italy, Germany, and Japan after WW2 be on the nickel... because they also served as ambassadors to countries that the U.S. defeated in war.

F: "He never waived in the face of public opinion..." --- Another normal characteristic. My mayor also never waives in the face of public opinion. Nor does Ron Paul or countless other politicians.

G: "He was against slavery and never owned slaves..." --- I also am against slavery and never owned slaves, do I deserve to be on the nickel?

H: "John Adams had a HBO mini series..." --- Huh? Bill Maher also has a show on HBO, should he be on the nickel?

I: "Adams created the Navy..." --- He created the name of the Navy. The Navy obviously existed before Adams.

K: "[Jefferson] is on Mount Rushmore, has a memorial at DC, has college named after him, and is on the two dollar bill. What does Adams have at national scale? Nothing." --- Hmm... If I was a lay-person looking at this debate and saw the above quoted statement, I would think that Thomas Jefferson is the much more important person. A more important person deserves more recognition than a no-name (John Adams).

L: "Appointed John Marshal to the supreme court..." --- There have been 111 Supreme Court Justices, Adams is not unique for nominating a SCOTUS Justice. Barack Obama nominated Sonia Sotomayor, the first hispanic, should Barack Obama be on the nickel?

=====

I have proved that Thomas Jefferson is more influential than John Adams and also that there is a negative economic motive to put John Adams on the nickel. I have proved that John Adams is unique in no way whatsoever, as evidenced by my rebuttals of Pro's contentions. Resolution negated.

=======
SOURCE:
=======

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
ilovgoogle

Pro

What my opponent has done in responding to my contentions is misquote them and slice them up without adding any context. In some cases he left of important parts of the contention and took advantage of what easy to pick apart without all the information. In other words he pulled a Jon Stewart.
Let's move onto some examples

"He advocated justice..." my full quote talked said: "He defended the soldiers at the Boston Massacre even though he knew it would hurt his reputation and he wouldn't be paid. He did the impossible and got 6 of the 8 men acquitted and the 2 others only charged with manslaughter down from murder. If he had not been the lawyer the British soldiers would've been falsely prosecuted. The trial was in Boston, the most "revolutionary" of the colonies at the time, and even still he convinced the jury of their innocence. No small feat."
Rather then refute the actual point you took just part of the quote and ignored the significance of the event and I stated

"Appointed John Marshal to the supreme court..." in full I said: "Appointed John Marshal to the supreme court, someone who would very influential in declaring the powers of the court, including judicial review." As I stated John Marshall was instrumental in establishing the powers of the court. Before that point the supreme court was considered a joke.

""He was against slavery and never owned slaves..." I also am against slavery and never owned slaves, do I deserve to be on the nickel?" Once again my full quote was "He was against slavery and never owned slaves. He and his wife Abagail fought against slavery and PAID free black men for help on the farm. You could say Jefferson was against slavery. And he was. In words only. Jefferson owned over 200 slaves."
Seeing as you think slavery was wrong then how do you explain that Jefferson owned over 200, while John Adams owned none? You chopped up my quote and destroyed the significance of the comparison.

To continue to show how ridiculous my opponents debating strategy is, I will use the same technique.
"Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration....." So he put 7 words together? I can do that too! See:
"I am embarrassing you right now, yeah!" Does that mean I deserve to be on the nickel?

"Thomas Jefferson presided over...The Louisiana Purchase" So he bought some land? So do 150 million other Americans. Do they deserve to be on the nickel?

Clearly I took what he was saying out of context and diminished it's significance. I would appreciated my it if my opponent would not use such techniques since they diminish the point of debate; to find the truth.

""He was our first vice president." --- How does being the first VP have anything to do with getting on the nickel. Dick Cheney was the 46th VP, should he be on the nickel?"
Being the first VP contains much more significance then being the 46th does. It set's up a precedent of what the whole of the job is. Take for example Washington, by being the first president and only serving 2 terms he set forth the idea that presidents should only serve two terms. Adams helped establish the role of the VP in the same way. I will also remind you that Adams was picked over Jefferson for VP. 77 in electoral votes to Jefferson's 4. Clearly they knew who the better man was :)

"My opponent also tries to argue that Jefferson hated debt. The Louisiana Purchase (828,800 square miles) was bought for today's equivalent of $213 million. Which equates to 3 cents per acre."
This does not refute my contention of Jefferson bring hypocritical by preaching 1 thing and doing another. I think you need to re-read my original rebuttal which stated: "it should be noted that the purchase and expedition also goes against the very thing Jefferson preached against, big government. To make the very purchase you highlighted Jefferson had to use the very thing he hated Alexander Hamilton for, the national line of credit and debt he argued against!" The quote from Napoleon should is irrelevant to your rebuttal to my contention.

"My opponent's source for his point 3 rebuttal is a link to the Louisiana Purchase, which has nothing to do with my point. My point stands."
The link to the Louisiana purchase just sourced what I was saying in my rebuttal above. I like to source the information I present, after all a debate is based on facts.

"5) My opponent also uses the same logic for Jefferson's statement of human rights: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." He claims that other people have said "similar" statements before. This is true, but the only reason "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." is known to the universe is because Jefferson wrote it in one of the most important documents in the history of man.""
Well he didn't write those exact lines. As I said before it was more of a collaboration. I agree he was the main author but the ideas he presented were not knew. Would you agree to "made famous by"? You also didn't respond to my point about how it was Adams who got Jefferson to draft a copy of the constitution, he did not volunteer. I think that is at least worth noting. The original line he wrote was: "We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness." [1]

""Father of our 6th president..." --- Once again, how does being the father of an important person have anything to do with getting on the nickel. Should George H.W. Bush be on the nickel? He was also Prez, and his son was Prez."
I think it creates a sense of legacy. Adams has instilled the values he had himself in his own son. I do think fathering a child that becomes president is certainly accomplishment. Especially when you consider that how much of an influence Adams had on his son.

""Adams created the Navy..." --- He created the name of the Navy. The Navy obviously existed before Adams.""
The ideas in the Declaration obviously existed before Jeffferson, yet you argue that the fact he officially brought it to the masses. The same applies here. If you're going to use that argument for Jefferson then you ave to concede this point to me. Adams really beefed up the Navy, by officially establishing it and heavily investing in it to protect against the French attacks in the Quasi War.

"6) Pro talks about seigniorage. Seigniorage has to do with collector coins, not normal coins (ie. nickel). Since the resolution is about the nickel and not collector coins, my point stands."
Refer to my rebuttal of your closing statements.

My opponent in general just responded to most of my contentions with different individuals that had done similar things. The point is the Adams did all of these himself. If my opponent can prove 1 individual did ALL the things I stated in my contentions, then I will happily concede this debate to him.

"I have proved that Thomas Jefferson is more influential than John Adams and also that there is a negative economic motive to put John Adams on the nickel. I have proved that John Adams is unique in no way whatsoever, as evidenced by my rebuttals of Pro's contentions. Resolution negated.

Once again I think your missing the point. Just because Jefferson was more influential doesn't mean he should be on the nickel. The honoring of Jefferson is disproportionate to his achievements. I believe the same is true for Adams, which is what this debate was about. You have not proved how much it would cost to put Adams on the Nickel. The profit derived from seigniorage I agree would be nominal, but it would cancel out the cost of changing the face. Why wouldn't these costs be nominal as well? If you can see by my contentions Adams was unique, who else was the second president of the U.S.? That's unique.

Unfortunately I have no space left and I will have to respond
Xer

Con

========
REBUTTALS
========

"He defended the soldiers at the Boston Massacre..." --- Once again, my opponent is bringing up a normal contention. John Adams was a lawyer and won a trial... so what?

"Appointed John Marshal to the supreme court..." --- There were many influential Supreme Court Justices. Just because John Adams appointed an influential justice, does not make Adams special.

"Seeing as you think slavery was wrong then how do you explain that Jefferson owned over 200, while John Adams owned none?" --- Jefferson was simply comforming to social norms of the South. You will be hard pressed to find any rich man in the South who didn't own slaves. George Washington also owned slaves , but should Washington have his face taken off the dollar bill for that? No.

"To continue to show how ridiculous my opponents debating strategy is, I will use the same technique.
'Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration.....' So he put 7 words together? I can do that too! See:
'I am embarrassing you right now, yeah!' Does that mean I deserve to be on the nickel?"

>I am under the impression that your 7 words didn't become an enduring statement of human rights, so my logic doesn't apply here.

"So he bought some land? So do 150 million other Americans. Do they deserve to be on the nickel?"

>No. Because the Louisiana Purchase more than doubled the land size of this country at a minimal price.

"Being the first VP contains much more significance then being the 46th does. It set's up a precedent of what the whole of the job is."

>*Awaits ways in which Adams set the precedent.* Unclaimed contention. Contention dropped.

"This does not refute my contention of Jefferson bring hypocritical..." --- The Louisiana Purchase has led to massive revenue and profits, incomparable to the amount spent.

"Well he didn't write those exact lines."

>Yes he did... See your quoted "original line". The last part is "...life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness."

"Father of our 6th president..." --- My opponenet concede this point. He has demonstrated there is no difference between John Adams Sr. and George Bush Sr.

======================
REBUTTAL - PRO'S CONCLUSION
======================

"Just because Jefferson was more influential doesn't mean he should be on the nickel."

>Take note- My opponent concedes that Jefferson was more influential than John Adams.

"You have not proved how much it would cost to put Adams on the Nickel. The profit derived from seigniorage I agree would be nominal, but it would cancel out the cost of changing the face. Why wouldn't these costs be nominal as well?"

>I have already rebutted this. Seignorage applies to collector coins. We are talking about normal nickels. This point is void.

=========
CONCLUSION
=========

>My opponent conceded the following contentions: 1, 2, 3, and 4.

>I have successfully defended my opponent's rebuttals of my contentions 5 and 6.

>Thus, all my contentions stand.

>I have proved that John Adams successes were not unique, he was just a player in American History who had a much lesser impact than Jefferson, which my opponent conceded.

>I have proved that the cost of changing the nickel would be foolish in a recession. It is just a waste of money.

>The resolution has been more than adequately negated.

======
SOURCE
======

[1] http://www.mountvernon.org...
Debate Round No. 3
ilovgoogle

Pro

My opponent, rather then confront my contentions, has regressed into his old shenanigans of chopping up and misconstruing my contentions. I'm ask the voters to read what was actually written before voting. I'll reinforce my contentions, then move into my closing statement.

""He defended the soldiers at the Boston Massacre..." --- Once again, my opponent is bringing up a normal contention. John Adams was a lawyer and won a trial... so what?"

I've already answered this: "He defended the soldiers at the Boston Massacre even though he knew it would hurt his reputation and he wouldn't be paid. He did the impossible and got 6 of the 8 men acquitted and the 2 others only charged with manslaughter down from murder. If he had not been the lawyer the British soldiers would've been falsely prosecuted. The trial was in Boston, the most "revolutionary" of the colonies at the time, and even still he convinced the jury of their innocence. No small feat."

""Appointed John Marshal to the supreme court..." --- There were many influential Supreme Court Justices. Just because John Adams appointed an influential justice, does not make Adams special."

In fact it does. Nominating supreme court justices who went on to very influential and well respected, positively reflects him. It's certainly not something Jefferson did.

""Seeing as you think slavery was wrong then how do you explain that Jefferson owned over 200, while John Adams owned none?" --- Jefferson was simply comforming to social norms of the South. You will be hard pressed to find any rich man in the South who didn't own slaves. George Washington also owned slaves , but should Washington have his face taken off the dollar bill for that? No."

There are a couple of problems with your rebuttal. First, your comparison to Washington is misleading. Washington never spoke out against slavery, while Jefferson did even though he had over 200. Second, I think it's important to remember what is popular is not always right. Adams knew this and practiced this throughout his life. He refused to go to war with France even though the people wanted to because he knew he could resolve the issue peacefully. He knew slavery was wrong and refused to own slaves. He only employed free black men which he paid.

""To continue to show how ridiculous my opponents debating strategy is, I will use the same technique.
'Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration.....' So he put 7 words together? I can do that too! See:
'I am embarrassing you right now, yeah!' Does that mean I deserve to be on the nickel?"
>I am under the impression that your 7 words didn't become an enduring statement of human rights, so my logic doesn't apply here.
"So he bought some land? So do 150 million other Americans. Do they deserve to be on the nickel?"
>No. Because the Louisiana Purchase more than doubled the land size of this country at a minimal price."

I don't think you got it. It was a means of humor to show that when you take things out of context like you have the meaning can get distorted. I quote from last round:
"Clearly I took what he was saying out of context and diminished it's significance. I would appreciated my it if my opponent would not use such techniques since they diminish the point of debate; to find the truth."

""This does not refute my contention of Jefferson bring hypocritical..." --- The Louisiana Purchase has led to massive revenue and profits, incomparable to the amount spent."

So in other words you concede this point?

"[Jefferson] is on Mount Rushmore, has a memorial at DC, has college named after him, and is on the two dollar bill. What does Adams have at national scale? Nothing." --- Hmm... If I was a lay-person looking at this debate and saw the above quoted statement, I would think that Thomas Jefferson is the much more important person. A more important person deserves more recognition than a no-name (John Adams)."
There's a difference between recognition and honor.
Honor: award: a tangible symbol signifying approval or distinction;
Recognition: the state or quality of being recognized or acknowledged;
Honor is recognition for good achievements. Recognition is for just being influential. See my comparison of Hitler. Obviously Jefferson was in no ways Hitler, nor do I mean to suggest so, but just being important or influential does not mean your instantly a honorable person.

""Well he didn't write those exact lines."
>Yes he did... See your quoted "original line". The last part is "...life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.""
Once again you attempt to misquote me. I was referring to the entire preamble.

""Father of our 6th president..." --- My opponenet concede this point. He has demonstrated there is no difference between John Adams Sr. and George Bush Sr."

Why do I need to demonstrate a difference? They're both great achievements to father a son to become president.

""Just because Jefferson was more influential doesn't mean he should be on the nickel."
>Take note- My opponent concedes that Jefferson was more influential than John Adams."

He was. No doubt about that. Being influential does not mean you get to be honored. Hitler was more influential, should we put him on the nickel? I'll continue to address this point in my closing statement.

""You have not proved how much it would cost to put Adams on the Nickel. The profit derived from seigniorage I agree would be nominal, but it would cancel out the cost of changing the face. Why wouldn't these costs be nominal as well?"
>I have already rebutted this. Seignorage applies to collector coins. We are talking about normal nickels. This point is void."

You haven't proved the cost of changing the face of the nickel would be anything, but nominal, however.

"I have proved that John Adams successes were not unique, he was just a player in American History who had a much lesser impact than Jefferson, which my opponent conceded."

Having an impact in history is not a qualification, as I said before Hitler had a large impact, should he be on the nickel? Also see my closing statement.

"*Awaits ways in which Adams set the precedent."

"Toward the end of his first term, he began to exercise more restraint in the hope of realizing the goal shared by many of his successors: election in his own right as president of the United States" http://tinyurl.com...

">My opponent conceded the following contentions: 1, 2, 3, and 4.
>I have successfully defended my opponent's rebuttals of my contentions 5 and 6."
These have already been addressed I will not go through them again. Refer to the above and the entire debate

Points Dropped by my opponent entirely:
[D]
[E]
[F]
[G]
[I]
[K]

CLOSING STATEMENTS
My opponent has distorted the point of this debate and Adam's accomplishments. Even if he were to prove Jefferson "the better man" that does not affirm the resolution. Many voters I'm sure did not know all of what John Adam's achieved in his life. His achievements are certainly comparable to Jefferson's. Yet Jefferson is honored disproportionate to his achievements. Between being on the two dollar bill, nickel, Mt. Rushmore, and having a memorial in D.C. Shouldn't we leave some room for Adams? He has nothing to be honored by! The nickel is the right place for him because it's on a national scale, is cheap to do, and doesn't disregard or take away what Jefferson did. For a man that gave so much for his country shouldn't we give him something back? I'll leave you with a quote from Adams.

A desire to be observed, considered, esteemed, praised, beloved, and admired by his fellows is one of the earliest as well as the keenest dispositions discovered in the heart of man.
John Adams
Xer

Con

My opponent dropped my following contentions: 1, 2, 3, and 4 in Round 3. My opponent preceded to drop contentions 5 and 6 in Round 4. He didn't even address my first four contentions after the second round.
>Thus, all my contentions stand.

My opponent said I dropped his following contentions: D, E, F, G, I, K.
>I actually did refute them.

D: "He was a man of sacrifice..." --- So is every single soldier in the history of the world. Does that mean that a random soldier should be on the nickel?

E: "He was Ambassador to Britain..." --- So what? Just because he served as an Ambassador to a country that the U.S. defeated in war, he deserves to be on the nickel? Should the Ambassador to Italy, Germany, and Japan after WW2 be on the nickel... because they also served as ambassadors to countries that the U.S. defeated in war.

F: "He never waived in the face of public opinion..." --- Another normal characteristic. My mayor also never waives in the face of public opinion. Nor does Ron Paul or countless other politicians.

G: "He was against slavery and never owned slaves..." --- I also am against slavery and never owned slaves, do I deserve to be on the nickel?

I: "Adams created the Navy..." --- He created the name of the Navy. The Navy obviously existed before Adams.

K: "[Jefferson] is on Mount Rushmore, has a memorial at DC, has college named after him, and is on the two dollar bill. What does Adams have at national scale? Nothing." --- Hmm... If I was a lay-person looking at this debate and saw the above quoted statement, I would think that Thomas Jefferson is the much more important person. A more important person deserves more recognition than a no-name (John Adams).

===

>I have proved that John Adams successes were not unique, he was just a player in American History who had a much lesser impact than Jefferson, which my opponent conceded.

>I have proved that the cost of changing the nickel would be foolish in a recession. It is just a waste of money.

>The resolution has been more than adequately negated.
Debate Round No. 4
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ilovgoogle 7 years ago
ilovgoogle
Cause he's to kool for skool.
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
why "eww"
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Adams.... eww.
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
I am not that good, but I think that JustCallMeTarzan is one of the best debaters here... ask him... he will give you good advise on what to do in that instance

if I were you I would just have taken a breath smiled at it and just continued on.
you still can draw notice to ignorance with out dropping to that level
(I am not saying NAGS comments were ignorant, i am just saying)

you could have drawing notice to the repeating of
"should be on the nickel"
and you can still be emotional with out stooping to another level... I just learned how to do it myself...
I do not debate well online... but like I said... I think you did well

and I love emotion in a debate, just not out of control emotion...
(you did not take it to a out of control level... I am just saying)

again ask JustCallMeTarzan and ask him what you should do...
Posted by ilovgoogle 7 years ago
ilovgoogle
@comoncents No lie, I was heated when typing it. Do you have a suggestion? Should I just ignore my opponents shenanigans and hope the voters will see through it? The most annoying part I found was that he never acknowledged it. Oh, yes and in my research I found out about those Prez coins. Already ordered some :) Still think the nickel is the best place for Adams.
Posted by ilovgoogle 7 years ago
ilovgoogle
@comoncents No lie, I was heated when typing it. Do you have a suggestion? Should I just ignore my opponents shenanigans and hope the voters will see through it? The most annoying part I found was that he never acknowledged it. Oh, yes and in my research I found out about those Prez coins. Already ordered some :) Still think the nickel is the best place for Adams.
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
he will be on the
http://www.usmint.gov...
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
"chopping it up and misquoting it is mocking beyond all else"

yes it was a little unconventional on his part and can be seen as rude, but in turn i expected you to just turn around with facts... and not with an upset elevated tone

he did take it up a level but you tool it one notch above his...
then with him not responding with a notch above yours, i thought that showed a slightly better conduct...

hey it is my opinion... it really does not matter... you are winning... do not mind me... you did well
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
ilovgoogle

I know where you are coming from but it was as if you were heated in typing it.
You did very well and I agree that Adams needs something significant, as he is a big part of our history.

It portion of the debate just reads with a slight mocking tone.
Posted by Lifeisgood 7 years ago
Lifeisgood
The nickel is a worthless piece of metal anyway. I say we get rid of it, and put Adam's face on the twenty dollar bill.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
ilovgoogleXerTied
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Vote Placed by Charlie_Danger 7 years ago
Charlie_Danger
ilovgoogleXerTied
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
ilovgoogleXerTied
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Vote Placed by ilovgoogle 7 years ago
ilovgoogle
ilovgoogleXerTied
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Vote Placed by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
ilovgoogleXerTied
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