The Instigator
candice
Pro (for)
Losing
18 Points
The Contender
b3rk
Con (against)
Winning
33 Points

Joseph Smith is a false prohphet.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/8/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,526 times Debate No: 3956
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (17)

 

candice

Pro

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him," (Deut. 18:20-22).

Being a Christian, this excerpt from the bible pretty much states my case in full. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism made MANY false prophecies.

1. Joseph Smith claimed that Jesus was to return 56 year's from the day of his prophecy. Yet, in 1891 the world was still very much not in the end of days.
History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 408-409

2. Smith claimed a great temple, and the Mecca of Mormondom to be built in Missouri in his generation. It was instead built in Utah.
Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31

3. Smith foretold of EVERY Nation, getting involved in the civil war. Obviously, this did not happen.
Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3

4. Joseph Smith said that "in a few days" the earth would have no sun, the moon would be bathed in blood, and the stars would fall, and the earth would shake. That was in 1832, so what exactly does a few days mean?
Doctrine and Covenants 88:87

5. Smith stated that Isaiah 11 6-9 was about to come to fruition. Isaiah states:"And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea." These things are not happening.
Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40

All of these quotations came from Mormon excepted doctrine. So if you are indeed a Christian, and follow the teaching of the Bible, how can you not see Joseph Smith is a false prophet? How can you excuse these so called visions from god not being true in the least? Not only will a Prophet of God not have false visions, they won't LIE about practicing them. Joseph Smith claimed to have had the "vision" of plural marriage as the only way to Godhood. This "revelation" is said to have been had by Smith in 1843 (as it says in Doctrine and Covenants, section 132.) Yet, why then did Joseph Smith ALREADY practice polygamy BEFORE this revelation? Also, why publicly in 1844 did Joseph Smith release a public statement in the Times and Seasons that a man preaching polygamy openly was being excommunicated from the church for preaching "false, and corrupt doctrine. Would a true profit of God hide a divine prophecy of God?
b3rk

Con

"When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him," (Deut. 18:20-22)."

My opponent believes that this verse from Deuteronomy defines the difference between a "true prophet" and a "false prophet". First of all, if she believes this, then god and many others are also false prophets. Witness:

Genesis

# God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17

# As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12

# God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14

# "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18), and Moses (Ex.6:20). 15:16

# God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13 God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 15:18

# God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4

# God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10

# God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2

# God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3

# The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10

# "He washed his garments in wine ... His eyes shall be red with wine."
Did Judah really wash his clothes in wine? Were his eyes bloodshot from drinking too much? Or is this a prophecy of Jesus? (I didn't know Jesus had a drinking problem.) 49:11-12

# Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24

Exodus

# God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 33:2

# In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1

Leviticus (None)

Numbers

# "If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will ... speak unto him in a dream." Now there's a reliable way to communicate with someone! 12:6

Deuteronomy

# God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 7:1

# God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill. 7:24

# Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15

# Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5

# Misquoted in Rom.10:8. 30:14

# God promises to "destroy these nations before thee." That he didn't keep his promise see Jos.15:63, 16:10, Jg.1:21, 1:27-36, and 3:1-5. 31:3-6

Joshua

# God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5

# Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10

# This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28

# God promised the Israelites that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they pass through. But this verse shows that he didn't keep his promise since he couldn't drive out the Jebusites. 15:63

# "And they drave not out the Canaanites." Once again God fails keep his promise to destroy all the people the Israelites encounter. 16:10

# The Israelites, contrary to God's promises to them, could not drive out the Canaanites. 17:12-13

# Joshua tells Manasseh that he will be able to drive out the Canaanites, but it turns out (see Jg.1:27-28) that he couldn't do it. 17:17-18

# According to these verses, God fulfilled his promise to give the Israelites all of the lands that they encountered. But in several places the Bible tells us that these promises were not kept. 21:43-45

Judges

# God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 1:21, 27-30

# God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 3:1-5

Ruth (None)

1 Samuel (None)

2 Samuel

# God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16

1 Kings

# God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 22:22

2 Kings

# God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg.23:29-30, 2 Chr.35:23-24) 22:20

# In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer.52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land. 25:7

1 Chronicles (None)

2 Chronicles

# God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22

# Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kg.22:20. 35:23

Ezra (None)

Nehemiah (None)

Esther (None)

Job (None)

Psalms

# Misquoted in Heb.10:5-6. 40:6

# Misquoted in Eph.4:8, which says: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Paul changed the words and meaning of the psalm from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 68:18

# Misquoted in Mt.13:35. 78:2-3

# "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37

I have many more, but I'll save them for the next round.

Either way, I challenge my opponent to PROVE that any specific bible prophecy has EVER come true using accurate, secular historical evidence.

If She cannot do this, then we cannot accept Deuteronomy's definition of a "false prophet" and thus she cannot accuse Joseph Smith of being any more "false" than any of her own prophets.

BTW, why does everyone seem to hate on Mormons around here? As a Jew, I'm feeling a lot of sympathy here. (yes, I did just call you all Nazis. Deal with it.)
Debate Round No. 1
candice

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate!

<< God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17>>

Genesis 3:6 DOES say that you shall die from eating of the apple. NOW, we all deserve death, for our sins. The great thing is, with Jesus we can be forgiven and be united with him in heaven. Adam and Eve DID die. Just as we as sinners, deserve death. It was an act of disobedience, thinking they could become like gods, that was the sin. This consequently is what Mormon's strive for. This, is the very origin of sin and a lie from the mouth of Satan. Genesis 3:4.

ACTUALLY, Cain did wander in Nod (which means wandering) for an untold amount of time. It could have been HUNDREDS of years! God never said, for all eternity he should do this. God still loved Cain though, and put a mark on him so that none should kill him. God punished him to renew his fellowship. He didn't totally deny him.

I would love to cover ALL those scriptures with you. It looks like you and I are going to have a million debates, but me going over ALL these in this debate is impossible. I've learned first hand these debates have character limits... :)

Okay, it will take me FOREVER, to go through and explain to you how your confusing scripture. You should go talk to your Rabi about this (seriously, I'm not saying this spitefully). The long and the short of it is... God is always right. Wow, you have looked through many scriptures. That's great! Although, you're confusing they're meaning.

<>
Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save the people of they're sins. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet.
Matthew 1:20-22.
Jesus was indeed born, we have ample historical proof that Jesus existed. Even non Christians acknowledge him, such as Jews, and Muslims. Rabbi Eliezer and writers of the Talmud, talks about Jesus and his miracles.
Cornelius Tacitus wrote about Jesus and the first century Christians in his Annals (a history of the Roman empire): "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."
Even the atheist H. G. Wells spoke of Jesus, "...one is obliged to say, "Here was a man. This part of the tale could not have been invented."
Starting at age 30, Jesus fulfilled more and more of these prophecies written about the Messiah. His fulfillment of these prophecies was very spectacular: Jesus gave sight to the blind, made the lame walk, cured those who had leprosy, gave the deaf hearing, and raised people from the dead! These miracles and others were done many times in front of thousands of witnesses for three years. About 30 AD, Jesus was crucified (a prophecy) and died (a prophecy). Three days later he rose from the dead (another prophecy), after which He was seen by over 500 witnesses. Since these prophecies were written down at least 400 years before they happened.
This, opponent, is just some of MANY prophecies in the New Testament. These are also to me the most important. So, here is your proof of true prophecy. The Smithsonian welcomes the Bible as true, and historically accurate. They deny the Book of Mormon though, because it has ABSOLUTLY NO HISTORICAL BACKING. PERIOD.

As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him. Psalm 18:30

The difference from your misconstruing the Bible's meaning, and Mormonism is that Joseph Smith very clearly stated his "prophecy's", and very clearly they did not come about when they should have. Being a Jew, your people are very careful about following prophets. Please don't call me a Nazi, I don't hate any people. I love everyone, I have friends that are Mormons, and Jews, and atheists. I am sad that they don't except Jesus, but I don't hate them! Babies getting taken from they're mothers by the Nazi's is something I would stop if I could. It's horrible what happened to your people, don't let your anger include me. I've never said Mormons or Jew's shouldn't be able to worship.
Mormon's can worship all they want. What I am doing, is bringing to people's attention they're not worshiping the God of the Jew, or of the Christian. They're worshiping a God who they think once was a man, who now lives on a distant planet called Kolob. They also think we can be equal to our God. This is not Judaism, OR Christianity.

As I said, I can't rebut ALL of those books, and chapters you've questioned. What we need to do is create a debate about each book and go through them. So, other than misinterpreted chapter's in the Bible that have nothing to do with Joseph Smith, how do you see him as a true prophet of God?
b3rk

Con

"Okay, it will take me FOREVER, to go through and explain to you how your confusing scripture. You should go talk to your Rabi about this (seriously, I'm not saying this spitefully)."
I don't have a Rabbi. Although I do respect my Jewish heritage, I don't allow anyone to tell me what to believe. The truth is that even Rabbis and Priests are, at best, taking someone else's word for it.

And I'm not confusing scripture. I'm simply trying to point out the ludicracy of saying that a prophet is only "true" if his prophecies happen.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I don't believe that Joseph Smith was inspired by god to write the book of Mormon, and I don't believe his prophecies were divinely inspired. In fact, I don't believe anyone's prophecies have ever been divinely inspired, because I've never seen any proof that they were.
I reject your definition of a "true prophet" and instead propose that all prophecies are false and thus a prophet is simply someone who makes prophecies.
This means that Joseph Smith is just as true a "Prophet" as any other.

"Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save the people of they're sins. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet.
Matthew 1:20-22."

See, the thing is, this is a quote from the King James Bible which was written in 1604 a.d., more than 1600 years after the events it describes happened. It does come from an earlier source, the Textus Receptus, which was published in Greek around 1500. Before this, of course, it was rewritten and translated at the many Councils from at least 3 different languages. The EARLIEST possible date of authorship for the book of Matthew is 70-110 A.D., still more than half a century after the Crucifixion.

Now, you remember the old kindergarten game, where everyone sits in a line, and a simple message is passed down, until at the end, it turns out completely different? Now Imagine the game involves thousands of people speaking four different languages, takes 1600 years to complete, and consists not of a simple message but of thousands of words of scriptures and prophecies.

Then take into account that the message was written by people who were basically missionaries, trying to convert people and make their religion grow. That too has to be taken into account. The truth is there is no historical or non-canonical proof that the PROPHECY was said before Jesus' birth or the crucifixion, word for word, in any language, or that the events played out in exactly the way the prophecy describes.

I'm not saying that the gospel is full of lies, Candice, and I'm not saying that these prophecies were false. I just want you to acknowledge that believing in the truth of any of these prophecies requires Faith, because they cannot be proven.

You seem to have a knack for taking pieces of other people's religions and making them sound ridiculous. The truth is that you are committing the same psychological heuristic that the Mormons do to their scripture.
When genesis was written, early holy men didn't know about evolution, or geology, and thus didn't know that the earth was actually billions of years old and had life on it for a rather long time before people arrived. Today, Christians and Jews have different reactions. Some continue to take it literally and deny evolution, geology, and all other science because it doesn't fit with their beliefs. This is dumb. Others relax and take a less literal interpretation.

When the Book of Abraham was written, the author didn't know that there wasn't a star somewhere, very close to heaven, where god has his throne. Today, some Mormons are fundamentalists and believe in it, and are as dumb as the Literalist Christians and Jews. Others relax and take a less literal view.

The point is that if you believe your religion is cool and all others drool then nothing will ever change that. However, in a logical debate, you can't say any religion is more valid than any other because they ALL require huge leaps of faith.

In truth, I believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, just like Nostradamus and Bobby Henderson
http://en.wikipedia.org...
because in the end, a prophet is just someone who makes prophecies, whether or not they come true.

Also, I'm not REALLY calling you a Nazi. I just want you to stop holding your religious beliefs above everyone else's. As a Jew living in the bible belt I know that there is nothing more irritating than someone condescendingly trying to "Save" you- other people can in fact be just as happy with their religions as you are.
Debate Round No. 2
candice

Pro

candice forfeited this round.
b3rk

Con

My opponent has forfeited the round...
I can only hope that my arguments have caused her to reconsider her unwarranted attitude of religious superiority.

Vote however you want, but for god's sake, READ THE ARGUMENTS!!!
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
I think it would've been fun to say that since Mormons aren't Christian, then Abraham's rules for prophets doesn't apply to Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure how she would've responded. :)
Posted by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
Berk, you did an awesome job. I will admit I initially voted for Candice after reading only the first arguments... then I read on... I voted Con.
Posted by b3rk 8 years ago
b3rk
Meh, if anything I'd be an agnostic. I like my heritage, it comes with some great customs and stories, but as for my true personal beliefs, I decide for myself, and keep them private.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Dude... You're probably the most Atheistic Jew that I know... Haha.
Posted by b3rk 8 years ago
b3rk
Yea, seriously, read her bio. So much for Tolerance.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Actually, Candice, four of your debates are anti-Mormon. What did they ever do to you?
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Seriously... Why does everyone on this site suddenly hate Mormons?
Posted by b3rk 8 years ago
b3rk
I agree my athiest friend. I don't have time either, but I'm tired of all this intolerance toward Mormons. Whatever happened to "Love thy Neighbor?"
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
I'd like to take this debate, but I'm too lazy to do the required biblical and historical research right now.

I know exactly how I would attack this, I'm just too lazy to get the right evidence. :)

Good luck, though.
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