The Instigator
candice
Pro (for)
Winning
55 Points
The Contender
cooljpk
Con (against)
Losing
48 Points

Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/7/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,044 times Debate No: 3933
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (28)

 

candice

Pro

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him," (Deut. 18:20-22).

Being a Christian, this excerpt from the bible pretty much states my case in full. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism made MANY false prophecies.

1. Joseph Smith claimed that Jesus was to return 56 year's from the day of his prophecy. Yet, in 1891 the world was still very much not in the end of days.
History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 408-409

2. Smith claimed a great temple, and the Mecca of Mormondom to be built in Missouri in his generation. It was instead built in Utah.
Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31

3. Smith foretold of EVERY Nation, getting involved in the civil war. Obviously, this did not happen.
Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3

4. Joseph Smith said that "in a few days" the earth would have no sun, the moon would be bathed in blood, and the stars would fall, and the earth would shake. That was in 1832, so what exactly does a few days mean?
Doctrine and Covenants 88:87

5. Smith stated that Isaiah 11 6-9 was about to come to fruition. Isaiah states:"And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea." These things are not happening.
Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40

All of these quotations came from Mormon excepted doctrine. So if you are indeed a Christian, and follow the teaching of the Bible, how can you not see Joseph Smith is a false prophet? How can you excuse these so called visions from god not being true in the least? Not only will a Prophet of God not have false visions, they won't LIE about practicing them. Joseph Smith claimed to have had the "vision" of plural marriage as the only way to Godhood. This "revelation" is said to have been had by Smith in 1843 (as it says in Doctrine and Covenants, section 132.) Yet, why then did Joseph Smith ALREADY practice polygamy BEFORE this revelation? Also, why publicly in 1844 did Joseph Smith release a public statement in the Times and Seasons that a man preaching polygamy openly was being excommunicated from the church for preaching "false, and corrupt doctrine. Would a true profit of God hide a divine prophecy of God?
cooljpk

Con

1) Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31 the "this generation" not his generation which is the generation of the last days ... our generation

2) i don't have the History of the Church on me so ill get back to you on that!

3) Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3 It's a prophecy of the civil war and IT'S repercussions on the world of freeing the slaves and us becoming the superpower we are.

4) Doctrine and Covenants 88:87 GOD's time table not yours ... i'm sorry the world does NOT revolve around YOU!!!

5) Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40 Again GOD's time table. and for the
"For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea." missionaries are every were as the "LORDS waters covering the earth"

And for the rest you twisted and mingled what he said to a point if i didn't know how to "UNDERSTAND it by my self i would agree with you but your full of it. Look beyond your pathetic self and let people believe what the want to.
Debate Round No. 1
candice

Pro

<<1) Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31 the "this generation" not his generation which is the generation of the last days ... our generation>>

THIS generation doesn't mean, the generation that it happens. It specifically says it will occur in 1891. There's no way to side step the meaning of his "prophecy".

<<2) i don't have the History of the Church on me so Ill get back to you on that!>>

Unfortunately for you, I do. Not only was it NOT built in Missouri, but the temple built in Utah wasn't even built in his lifetime as he "predicted".

<<3) Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3 it's a prophecy of the civil war and IT'S repercussions on the world of freeing the slaves and us becoming the superpower we are.>>

Actually, NO... is specifically says " For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations."

Incase anyone hadn't noticed... the civil war did not case a world war. Have you ever heard of the South calling on all Nations to help them?

4)<>

That's funny... because Joseph Smith specifically said not many days hence. God must not have spoken very clearly to him.

5) I agree God has a time table. Do you not take literally the things that your founding prophet says? It seems that you are easily not taking the things that he says literally. Should I do the same, and just hope that the people telling me these things are true are indeed correct? NO, I believe we should listen to facts.

I would like to bring to your attention I "mingled" nothing, and put EXACTLY the quotes from Mormon approved doctrine. Never did I change anything... and gave you EXACTLY what chapter's, and pages I gathered them from. I apologize your religion is so easily proved to be false, don't blame me for that.

I notice that you said NOTHING about his "revelation" of plural marriage. Jesus Christ said "Marriage is for Earth, not heaven". How then do you think you can obtain Godhood, and rule your own planet and be equal to God through eternal marriage? Not only that, but eternal PLURAL marriage!

Are you telling me that Jesus Christ is wrong? Also, are you telling me you believe Joseph Smith's proclomation that Jesus Christ is NOT god, was NOT born of a virgin, and that the Holy Trinity is not one person as the Bible says? Do you believe the Bible is 100% correct? If you do, all the Mormon proclomations could not POSSIBLY be correct.
cooljpk

Con

"THIS generation doesn't mean, the generation that it happens. It specifically says it will occur in 1891." Can i have word for word on that??? because to my knowledge he and every other modern prophet proclaimed. "the 2nd coming will come only when god says it will" and none of them will give them ever gave a specific date" but on the other hand, Jesus could have come to earth to talk to a prophet in that time frame. STILL filling the prophecy!!!

" For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then a war shall be poured out upon all nations."
Through modern Revelation it has been CLARIFYED that it talk of even more than the civil war it talks about war from than to the 2nd coming.

"That's funny... because Joseph Smith specifically said not many days hence. God must not have spoken very clearly to him."
God hardly ever "the world will destroyed in 3 years 2 months 6days 5 hours 30 min 6.23556241562342462421 seconds." come on seriously not every things is immediate. I'm SORRY!!!

"I agree God has a time table. Do you not take literally the things that your founding prophet says? It seems that you are easily not taking the things that he says literally." if i recall right around 95 % of the prophets of the bible even Jesus. used stories, paroles, hypothetical ideas and visions to express their vision.

"would like to bring to your attention I "mingled" nothing, and put EXACTLY the quotes from Mormon approved doctrine. Never did I change anything... and gave you EXACTLY what chapter's, and pages I gathered them from. I apologize your religion is so easily proved to be false, don't blame me for that."
yes you put what it said but ALL scripture has deeper meaning.
and all religions have place that can be proved false BUT isn't that the concept of FAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Jesus Christ said "Marriage is for Earth, not heaven"."Matt 16:19 "who so ever be bound on earth same shall be in heaven"

read isaiah 29 ezekiel 37:15-28 and answers if any other church fulfilled this prophesies?
Debate Round No. 2
candice

Pro

<<14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:"
15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.">>
Doctrine and Covenenants Section 130.

So, Joseph Smith said God told him this. Take it for what you will (of course that's what your doing)

<>

So, exactly what does modern revelation mean? Does that mean that a prophet covered up the fact that Joseph Smith SPECIFICALLY said the South was going to get every Nation involved creating a world war? This didn't happen. So, your prophets can say anything the words still say the southern states will call on other nations.

<>

Actually god didn't "hardly" ever say when the world would end, it specifically says in the Bible: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be . . . Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh . . . " (Mat. 24:36-51)

So, NO MAN knows when the end of the world will happen. Not even the angels in heaven.

<>

Yes, Jesus did use parables. Joseph Smith foretold prophecies that did not happen though. Jesus NEVER lied, or hid anything. Joseph Smith did. He is not the equal of Jesus Christ.

< and all religions have place that can be proved false BUT isn't that the concept of FAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>

If you believe in the bible 100%, Joseph Smith is wrong. Faith is beautiful, but following blindly is horrible. Joseph Smith said: Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion? We have none. Actually, if you're a Christian... you'll have the Bible, and CHRISTIANITY.

<<"Jesus Christ said "Marriage is for Earth, not heaven"."Matt 16:19 "who so ever be bound on earth same shall be in heaven">>

So, does this mean you DON'T believe in the words of Jesus Christ? Matt 16:19 does NOT say that who ever is bound on earth will be bound in heaven. It says the EXACT opposit. So, tell me... do you believe Joseph Smith over Jesus Christ?

As for the two chapters you led me to, I have absolutely NO idea what your getting at. In Ezekiel 37, it's talking about Israel. What does the Mormon Church have to do with Israel at all? You claim that people sailed to the America's, and had vast wars that there is NO archeological proof of. So, you're trying to proof something by this chapter is totally eluding me.

Then, Isaiah 29 says: Their worhsip of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Joseph Smith made rules to gain heaven made by MEN. With no biblical backing at all.

Revelation 22:18-9 states: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

Jesus Christ Died for our sins. Everything, EVERYTHING you need to gain access to heaven, is through him. Not through eternal marriage, not through anything other than Jesus. You do not need to be perfect to be saved! Christians no longer build temples, because there's no need. Jesus was the last and totally perfect sacrifice to God!

The Bible says not to enter into secret activities (Matthew 10:26-27; Ephesians 5:11-12). Why then do Mormon's claim that temple ceremonies are to "sacred" to reveal? Jesus said,"I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing" (John 18:20). On the contrast, Joseph Smith had many secrets, and wasn't open about his "prophecies".

Joseph Smith said: "I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I." (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

Would a true, pious prophet of God say these things? Jesus never did such a work as he? He gave his life to save humanity. Joseph smith is a heretic. This is no true prophet of God.
cooljpk

Con

"Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter" that was never fulfilled but than again it never had a chance to be fulfilled under your interpation of that prophecies. He was Murder before it could so he can't be said he was wrong because it said "if" and only referenced to him. We make it know that only god knows trough Cross references to matt 24:36 and he admits that he doesn't know in d&c 130:16 "I was left thus, without being able to decide weather this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing or weather I should die and thus see his face. And"
(
Mat. 24:36-51) So, NO MAN knows when the end of the world will happen. Not even the angels in heaven." and I agree along with Joseph and every Mormon since

"Modern anti-Mormons try to mock Joseph's prophecy as obvious, though it clearly wasn't. Some, in their desperation to attack, may even be tempted to alter the words of the prophecy to make an easier target. Norman Geisler's essay, "Scripture," in the book The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1998, pp. 9-49) subtly changes the phrase "the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations" to "the time will come that the war will be poured out upon all nations" and then argues that this part of the prophecy deals with the Civil War only (see Alma Allred, "Coin of the Realm: Beware of Specious Specie" in FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 12, No. 1, 2000, pp. 137-174). This is, of course, the leading tactic in anti-Mormon writings: misrepresent LDS teachings with something easily attacked, and then attack the new (but bogus) target. It's much easier that way, but only the unwary will be fooled.
Brigham Young and others knew that Joseph was speaking of events much greater than just the Civil War, and knew that he had prophesied of future wars beyond what was published in the Doctrine and Covenants. Brigham said this:

Brother Hyde spoke of a revelation which he tried to find in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. That revelation was reserved at the time the compilation for that book was made by Oliver Cowdery and others, in Kirtland. It was not wisdom to publish it to the world, and it remained in the private escritoire [desk]. Brother Joseph had that revelation concerning this nation at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning with regard to African slavery on this continent, and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world. There are other revelations, besides this one, not yet published to the world. Journal of Discourses, 8:58."

"You claim that people sailed to the America's, and had vast wars that there is NO archeological proof of. "But if archaeological proof of the existence of cities such as Zarahemla, and peoples such as the Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites and more is what you require . . . then I recommend going to the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and reading every single issue. "The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies is a scholarly journal devoted to the latest research on the Book of Mormon, including articles on the geography, names, terms, and events in the Book of Mormon, as well as archaeological finds in the Old World and the New World. The Journal also highlights new scientific methods and technologies that may aid in Book of Mormon research."

But is there complete proof of Adam and eve or Noah or Jesus resurrection so again we need FAITH which allows us to build spiritually relying on the lord and if you believe in the bible as you claim than you must know god doesn't give complete proof!

"Jesus NEVER lied, or hid anything. Joseph Smith did. He is not the equal of Jesus Christ" what did he hide? And he is not equal. I believe in the bible is 100% true.

matt16:19 state "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whosoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" so he had keys or the authority to marry people for "time and all eternity" not "till death do you part" and he received that authority which makes him a TRUE PROPHET!!!!

"It's talking about Israel. What does the Mormon Church have to do with Israel at all?" for your information they were from Israel Nephi 1:4! And the book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph talked about in Ezekiel 37. Isaiah said in chapter 29 talks of how the book of Mormon will come forth out of the dust and how people like YOU will attack it!

Revelation 22:18-9 A brief review of some historical facts should clear up this issue. The Bible is a collection of sacred writings that were compiled into book format centuries after the death of the original writers. When the Apostle John wrote these verses, the Bible as we know it today had not been compiled yet. Therefore, his words could not possibly be applied to the entire collection of writings today known as the Bible. John was referring specifically to the Book of Revelation.

Additionally, even though Revelation is traditionally placed last in the Bible, most Biblical scholars do not believe that it was the last book to be written among the compiled records contained in the Bible. If your reasoning is true, then those Books would also have to be removed from the Bible and discarded as false.

"The Bible says not to enter into secret activities (Matthew 10:26-27; Ephesians 5:11-12). Why then do Mormon's claim that temple ceremonies are to "sacred" to reveal?" we reveal every thing we do in these place we just keep it sacred by not letting every one attend.

"(History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09)" He said in that when he was prosecuted, the church stood by him unlike when Jesus was arrested and the apostles fled, and when the apostles were in danger their friends betrayed them etc. and yes Joseph smith had faults every HUMAN does it's in our nature and he had pride issues once in awhile.

If you look at the LDS church we follow ALL bible doctrine (unlike some religion who says they believe in the bible than change it or only obey parts) and the lds church has the highest convert rate in the world. And has not sent people to kill them self like other religions or physical force people to join! (Not to put other churches down)!

How can such a religion come from a false prophet!
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by jwill 4 years ago
jwill
I am voting for the Pro. Candice explains to the fullest extent that expose some things that Mormons cannot fully recover from. I am suprised that she did not use more points in convincing the peoples vote. I was a recent convert of the church who is now not active int the LDS church and on my way out of the church, I am surrounded by Mormons every single day, I live in Utah. Provo to be exact.

A couple things here. Mormons like to think they are Christians because the name they have on their church says Jesus Christ. That does not mean much. You know how many statues and places dedicated to Joseph Smith? There is a Joseph Smith building at BYU where they have church at a campus. NOT A CHURCH.. a campus. I will tell you how it reallly is. When you are in the wards here, people put testimonys of themselves in experinces that go on for an average of fifteen minutes with a max of twenty. You think God wants you talking about yourself on his Holy day or worshipping and learning about him. I am sure it is the second option. The second thing I would like to point out is the fact that When I ask a mormon if they pray to Christ, they always say no. I pray to Heavenly Father. How can you pray to God if you do not pray through Christ? Jesus said that no one comes to the Father, except by Him (John 14:6). I have even asked Mormons that when they say it is not translated correctly, I always say, Okay, which part of that verse is not translated correctly, they always say, I don't know, it just is not translated correctly.

They also believe God is flesh and bones. Book of Mormon warns against this. Do not follow flesh and bone (Man).. They also believe that God attained his God hood. in Isiah 44:6 it points out that God was the first and he is the last, there is no other God but himself, so when Mormons die, they cannot obtain Godhood or progress into Gods since There is only one God, apart from him there is no other God.
Posted by draxxt 8 years ago
draxxt
Disregard my last statement... I was under a false pretense. Vote to Pro still remains as well as the PS.
Posted by draxxt 8 years ago
draxxt
Dammit, my morals conflict... I want to vote for Candice because she's the only one who debated, but I also want to vote for cooljpk because Candice said nothing of relevance...

Vote to PRO.

(Also, have you notised that all Morman debates have equally five debates throughout? I thought that odd as they either have five accounts to one person [reference to polygamy, yes] or there are exactly five illogical Mormans participating on this site... Just thought I'd let you know.)
Posted by DoubleXMinus 8 years ago
DoubleXMinus
Bah, that's ironic.

"Her statements were better thought out." Plus, she submitted more proof of what she was saying than did Con.

Alright, I'm finished. *Tries to escape with only minimal repercussions...*
Posted by DoubleXMinus 8 years ago
DoubleXMinus
Lol theLwerd, that was pretty enjoyable to read. I'm voting Pro because her arguments made more sense than Cons... at times I couldn't even understand what he was trying to say past the horrible grammar, spelling, and language skills altogether. But I'm sure *he* knows exactly what he's talking about... heh.

Pro just better thought out her statements by a very large degree.
Posted by Danielle 8 years ago
Danielle
HaHaHa. A Christian telling a Mormon that their beliefs are rooted in fallacy. How perfect.

So Candice, I'm curious - which one are you? The pot or the kettle?

In any event, you certainly out debated your opponent.
Posted by draxxt 8 years ago
draxxt
Did you just call B3rk a" funny little thing you."? Vote to CON. Not because of the funny little thing, but because he beat you.
Posted by AntiPatriot 8 years ago
AntiPatriot
You obviously know little to nothing about Mormonism. If you think anti-Mormon websites and your anti-Mormon pastor are good places to get good objective information, I would say your logic is flawed.
Posted by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
Candice you did a great job!
Posted by Chuckles 8 years ago
Chuckles
con was right on one count. you said it was "if you live to 85". Smith didn't obviously so that point was poo.
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Vote Placed by Merrit 3 years ago
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