Justice League vs. Avengers
I accept this debate. Let the games begin muahahaha
The JLA has more abilities than the Avengers do. For intelligence, they have Batman. For power, they have Superman and many others. For speed, they have the Flash. For telepathy, they have Martian Manhunter.
Even though the Avengers was very successful, the franchise of JLA is more, if not as, successful. Though they have not had a movie, they have had cartoons like Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Legends of the Superheroes, and many animated films. Also, the members' movies are more successful, those including Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Man of Steel, the tv show Arrow, the tv show Wonder Woman, and many others.
The Justice League is together and friendly with each other mainly always. This is not the same with the Avengers. With the Avengers, we've got conflicts here and there, people dying, and fights happening for petty differences, like in Civil War. The Avengers have even split up and formed into smaller teams, like Young Avengers and Secret Avengers.
4. Larger Demographic
For the non-comic fan, the Avengers are relatively new. To the non-comic fan, the Justice League is a classic and is known from the start. For many people, Avengers were unknown until the movie in 2012 were released. It was then when they got really popular. However, JLA's heroes are way more popular, many thanks to the cartoon. If you saw a random guy on the street and asked, "Hey do you know who Superman is?" You'll probably get a reaction like, "Well duh, who hasn't". If you asked a random guy on the street a question like, "Hey do you know who Iron Man is?" You'll probably get an answer like, "Oh yeah, he's that blue robot guy from the video games, right?"
Justice Leaguers are more popular, as I have stated. Their famous old Superman movies, Wonder Woman tv shows, Batman 1960s show and others help support this statement.
5. Live Action TV Adaption
The JLA had a live-action appearance in the show Smallville. The team consisted of Superman, Aquaman, Cyborg, Green Arrow, and Impulse. I don't see Marvel doing anything like that with the Avengers.
More next round. As for now, see ya.
While Batman, superman, the flash and martian manhunter are cool, they're normal. Marvel has had tons of people in the avengers, with incredible ranges of abilities. (Most of which are way more creative than DC). Scarlet Witch has abilities beyond comprehension, Wolverine has knife hands and can heal like crazy, spiderman has spider sense and super strength, ant-man can shrink to miniscule size and grow incredibly (and controls ants as a bonus). I could go on for days. So I will. Vision can control his density allowing him to phase through objects and fly without actually lifting himself up, hawkeye (who does have powers, you just might've not noticed it in the movie) can zoom in his eyesight, Ms. Marvel can fly and has super strength AND can blast energy beams at people, and captain marvel can morph her body into anything on the electomagnetic spectrum.
As far as creativity goes, JLA's strongest point is aquaman. So yeah.
"those including Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises"
Let me point out that that trilogy was it's own contained trilogy. Even Nolan himself said that the batman universe in his trilogy isn't in the JLA universe, this that series is irrelevant. We're talking about JLA, not DC here. I'm not gonna count The Wolverine as an Avengers film just because a future Avenger is in it. The same goes for Arrow, unless that character is included in the JLA film. As of right now, Man of Steel and (correct me if I'm wrong) Green Lantern are the only two released JLA films.
As for cartoons, I will say some of them are popular, but the most popular ones are the entirely batman series. And unless those sereis feature the JLA at some point, they're not JLA related. But the JLA animated series is more successful than the Avengers animated series, I'll give you that.
The Avengers very often work together. But that's not the point I'm gonna make. The point I'm gonna make is that you can't have a serious team without inner conflict, it just doesn't make sense. It doesn't mean they work better as a team, it means that the rest of the JLA are puppets to Batman and Superman. While in the Avengers, their ability to work as a team is proven stronger based on the fact that they can put inner termoil aside when the earth needs them.
4. Larger Demographic
If we're talking about modern day, don't get me started on how wrong you are. First of all, The Avengers (as well as the avengers set-up films) are very populer and very well accepted by most communities. Meanwhile, Man of Steel was met with mediocre reviews saying "too comic book-y". It wasn't Man of Steels fault, they were working with JLA. But my point is only JLA fans loved the film and defend it, while I've seen some of the jock types raving about how sick Iron Man 3 was. (Yes, IM3 is still Avengers canon, they announced that the events in IM3 are used in Age of Ultron.)
5. Live action TV adaptation
Really? You haven't heard of the mass-talked about ABC's Agents of Sheild starting this fall? You might actually be the only one.
Now that I'm done responding, let me come up with my own 5 reasons.
1. Bada** characters
Sure, JLA has Batman, but that's it really. And that's assuming Ben Afflecks batman isn't JLA style cheesy. Meanwhile, Avengers currently has Tony Stark- A slick fast talking businessman who flies a ROBOT DEATH SUIT, Black Widow- way hotter than Wonder Woman, Captain America- AMERICA F*** YEAH, And the Hulk- a big green dude who smashes things to releive stress. What does JLA have? A dude who commands fish. Yay.
(Yes I know he was cool in Injustice that's besides the point.)
The JLA movie will all depend on people as a large number enjoying the JLA setup films (and then eventually the JLA film.), but due to how ludicrous JLA can be at times, I'm skeptical. However, Avengers characters are just grounded in reality enough to seem plausible for film. While in comics and animations, characters can have bombastic abilities and odds of that plan working don't matter, it matters in film and we've already seen Avengers is up to that task.
3. They save more than America
I know this is a bit too easy, but come on. Justice League of America? The Avengers are the Avengers of Earth, they don't care what country it's in. I mean- knowing Hollywood, don't excpect Age of Ultron to take place in France or anything, but still.
4. Joss Whedon at the helm
Need I say more?
5. All audiences
While JLA seems to be going for a root nerd fanbase, Avengers has everyone. Nerds, casual moviegoers, that hot chick across the street, your boss, the pizza guy, EVERYONE. It has no criteria and everyone is the target audience.
Scarlet Witch's abilities are as follows: Probability Manipulation, Reality Alteration, and Chaos Magic. Her abilities are relatively similar to Zatanna (a Justice Leaguer) whose abilities are Skilled and powerful user of Magic. As you can see, Scarlet Witch may have her reality stuff and what not, but Zatanna's abilities in magic dominate that of Scarlet Witch's. But, since S.W. has those other powers, I guess we can call their abilities equal.
You argue that Wolverine has "knife hands" and can "heal like crazy". But how does he fare against the Justice Leaguer Animal Man? If you are unaware, Animal Man's power is to mimic the abilities or features of any animal. So let's say Wolverine and Animal Man get into a fight. Animal Man mimics the abilities of a wolf (for sharpness), a hawk (to fly) and a cockroach (for durability). This is equal to, if not more than, Wolverine's abilities.
Your next argument is Spider-Man's abilities. Animal Man alone could take Spider-Man. But since I'm talking similarities of abilities, I'll argue about Supergirl. Supergirl's powers include all that Superman has, various extra sensory and vision powers, invulnerability, and skilled martial artist. Since Supergirl has "various extra sensory and vision powers", it's safe to assume that she has better "sense" than Spider-Man does. Since Supergirl also has super-strength, that is already shown.
You also state that Ant-Man can shrink in size and grow incredibly. However, the Atom can shrink to the size of well, an atom, so that is actually more convinient than getting huge (I can describe why if you want me to next round). And, he is also a genius (Yes, I know Ant-Man is too).
You argue Vision's ability to control and/or change his own density, this is the same with Martian Manhunter.
Green Arrow is far more skilled than Hawkeye.
Ms. Marvel's abilities are also very similar to Doctor Fate's.
Captain Marvel has less capabilities then, say, Amazing Man or Metamorpho.
How is Aquaman their most creative? Please explain that.
I wasn't trying to imply that the trilogy was involved with the Justice League. I was implying that they were graet successes for one of the members of the team (Batman, of course).
As for cartoons, Batman was very successful. Perhaps more successful than most of Marvel's shows.
Believe me, the JLA has had inner conflict. Any true fanboy should know this. Think of Flashpoint, Cry For Justice, Trinity War, etc. The Justice League are not "puppeted" by Batman and Superman. The two heroes are just founders, along with others like Flash and Wonder Woman.
4. Larger Demographic
The main reason why the Avengers are so popular and accepted by communities is because of the movie. Justice League has gotten as popular as them, and they haven't had a single live action movie. Most of the mediocre or bad reviews for Man of Steel were not for being "too comic book-y". It is probably because of all the destruction and Superman snapping Zod's neck (Sorry if that was a spoiler, guys!)
5. Live action TV- adaption
I have indeed heard of that show. I'm a huge geek, and it would be literally depressing if I hadn't. However, Smallville focused on actual superheroes coming together and not just a bunch of agents.
6 (your 1). Bada** characters
Oh believe me, Batman is bada** no matter who is playing him, except for Clooney (lol). If you want to go on with robot death suits, why don't we talk about Adam Strange, the Rocket Reds, Cyborg, and many more? "Black Widow- way hotter than wonder woman". That is just an opinion. JLA has many patriotic heroes like General Glory. Also, Superman is practically a boy scout. Many JLA heroes smash things. Really? Are you kidding me? The JLA obviously has WAY more than just Aquaman. You know, 'cause then they would just be called "Aquaman" and not "The Justice League".
7 (your 2). Realistic
If we are going to talk realistics, I could make a pretty good argument that the JLA is more realistic then the Avengers. They've got Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Arsenal, Nightwing, etc.
8 (your 3). They save more than America.
Are you kidding me. Are you seriously, genuinely, legit-ly kidding me? Please! It took one guy (Superman) to save the whole world (Man of Steel) whereas in Avengers, it took SEVEN heroes to save a CITY. The JLA is only called JLA because they mainly operate in America, they've had headquarters in America, and most of their heroes are Americans.
9 (your 4). Joss Whedon at the helm
Yes you do.
10 (your 5). All Audiences
The JLA is definitely for more than just nerds and geeks. They appeal to everyone, one of the main reasons being the ever-popular cartoon.
"Scarlet Witch's abilities are as follows: Probability Manipulation, Reality Alteration, and Chaos Magic. Her abilities are relatively similar to Zatanna (a Justice Leaguer) whose abilities are Skilled and powerful user of Magic. As you can see, Scarlet Witch may have her reality stuff and what not, but Zatanna's abilities in magic dominate that of Scarlet Witch's. But, since S.W. has those other powers, I guess we can call their abilities equal."
Well I guess you know more about Scarlet Witch than I do.
Okay this was a point I wasn't really going to make earlier, but I'll make it anyway. What's up with the names of JLA characters? I mean sure, Avengers has some obvious ones as well (Captain America? Are you joking right now Stan?), but the JLA leader is named Superman. You literally cannot get anymore obvious than that. With Avengers, at least half of the names don't mean the power they have. Wolverine doesn't have wolverine abilities. Spiderman (although he can climb on walls) built his web-shooters post bite, so they're not part of the mutation. He's only spiderman because he can shoot webs, if he couldn't do that he'd just be "climbs-walls-man".
"But how does he fare against the Justice Leaguer Animal Man?"
Well, lets see. Take Animal Man (who can mimic any animal) and pitch him against Wolverine (an invincible dude with knives in his knuckles) and see what happens. What happens is that every time Animal Man takes down Woverine (by which point he would be exhausted) Wolverine would heal (as he does) as keep fighting. Now, since Animal Man has the durability of a cockroach (the only known survivor of Chuck Norris), this cycle would happen a lot, but it would keep going until either Wolverines alchoholic needs took over- normally not until he wins but still- or wolverine kills animal man, then gets a beer.
"I'll argue about Supergirl"
Alright, this is something I didn't mention in my previous thing, because most JLA fans are pretty defensive about this... Superman and all the superpeople) are incredibly overpowered. They literally cannot be killed. Now, given superman was created at a time when the superhero hadn't really been introduced to the world, so a superhero who couldn't be killed and just stopped crime made sense. But come on already, it's time to grow up. There's no challenge, and no tension when the hero cannot be killed by anything except the rarest metal in the universe. And it just seems like over time, they keep adding powers. First it was flight and invicability and super strength. Then laser vision. Then snow breath. Then x-ray vision, then superhearing, then so on and so on. It's ridiculous. Yes, you're right. Superman and Supergirl (as well as the other supers) could kick the Avengers asses. But take away those super-people (and respectivley Wolverine because he's invincible too) and watch the chaos.
BTW: It would never be a 1v1 thing with the Avengers, they work together as one team, like the 300 spartans.
"Together as one unit".
"How is Aquaman their most creative? Please explain that."
Aquaman can breath underwater, and can command all creatures of the sea, and rules atlantis. Compared the the dude who has every power, the worlds greatest detective, a man who can... create green things, and wonder-woman (who really only exists to help pre-teens throguh puberty, lets face it), yeah that's pretty damn creative. Granted, he's still Aquaman.
"Any true fanboy should know this. Think of Flashpoint"
Okay, I know about Flashpoint, but I'm pretty sure that took place in an alternate universe. As for the other things, I'm sorry I didn't fully research that part, that was unproffesional. Oh and as for teh fanboy thing... do you see what side I'm fighting for here?
"The main reason why the Avengers are so popular and accepted by communities is because of the movie"
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Avengers has jsut enough range, or changability if you will, to become an action movie everyone can enjoy that doesn't go too far with the comic-ness of itself. Man of Steel, I am still waiting to see that realism.
"Man of Steel were not for being "too comic book-y". It is probably because of all the destruction"
That's the same thing right? I mean, in comics, you can get away with destroying anything and not giving a sh*t. You can't do that as much in movies, it'll befuddle moviegoers.
"Oh believe me, Batman is bada** no matter who is playing him"
Oh I know batman is badass... now, but rememeber we're still talking about the team with a dude who wears tights and a cape (just the cape in Man of Steel), and a fish-man. I'm sorry, but that's not badass. Batman is badass, I agree. If anything, he is more badass than a large majority of the Avengers (Not Iron Man or Agent Coulson, I won't go there.)
"I could make a pretty good argument that the JLA is more realistic then the Avengers."
Again, fishman and tights. I meant realistic in the sense that it seems reasonable, and not comic-booky. I know a robot detah suit is about as comic-booky as you can get, but at least it's not red tights.
"Are you kidding me. Are you seriously, genuinely, legit-ly kidding me?"
Okay, I am sorry, I was mainly just talking about their name when I said that. Not to mention I was grasping for a straw there, so I will retract that statement I made.
"Yes you do."
Joss Whedon is one of the worlds greatest writers & directors. He has created not 1, not 2, but 3 of the best TV shows ever made. He was at the helm of two of the most well-known films ever (Avengers and Toy Story), and is making another TV show. His work always has great characters, lots of teamwork included into the story, very fluid and realistic dialogue, and everything he does has a great sense of humor (realistic, but hilarious.). Not to mention his skill of creating that sense of fear for the characters. He is very well known for killing of characters people like (usually in really cold ways, like it was nothing), but never making them want to stop watching because of it. Him helming Avengers and Agents of Shield guarentee Nathan Fillion will show up at some point (omg yes), as well as other people he often works with (Fran Kranz, Alexis Denisov, Summer Glau, Eliza Dushku, Sean Maher and Amy Acker- all awesome people). Now literally- LITERALLY- the only thing JLA can possibly in any universe do to top this is to get Steven Moffat to make JLA. (And with him doing Doctor Who & Sherlock, I doubt that this will happen.)
"The JLA is definitely for more than just nerds and geeks."
I wouldn't say that. Dark Knight trilogy? Yes, but that was popular outisde of nerd culture due to it's dark tone and amazing directing, not because it had batman. It took Avengers being the coolest most of it's year to get people from the "in" crowd to notice it, it's gonna take a lot more for JLA to do the same.
(Side note: Bryan Cranston as Lex Luthor would be awesome.)
"Well I guess you know more about Scarlet Witch than I do".
Heh. I actually just googled her superpowers.
"What's up with names of JLA characters?"
Have you realized that Avengers' names match their powers, too? Hulk, for example. The definition of hulk:
a large or unwieldy boat or other object. And this is exactly what Hulk is, a large unwieldy thing. Hawkeye: has eye view of a hawk. Iron Man: Wears iron suit. I could on for days.
"Wolverine doesn't have wolverine abilities".
Actually, he does. He's got the anger, rage, and just plain animal senses, not to mention the fierce claws.
"Build his web-shooters post-bite".
Indeed he did. But that still goes with spider abilities.
Now, for that next part, Wolverine would probably put up a fight for a good while, then have to quit to go drink beer and smoke cigars.
"...Overpowered, cannot be killed".
Avengers have many characters like this. Like Hulk, Thor, and Sentry, among many others.
"...like the 300 Spartans".
Heh, all the 300 Spartans died. Including Leonidas, who was brutally slain by a barrage of arrows. Way to go, Leonidas. This isn't Sparta anymore.
Aquaman is by no means their most creative. You've got Red Tornado, an awesome android that makes, well, red tornadoes. Or Metamorpho, the amazing morphing man. There are plenty more.
"I'm pretty sure that took place in an alternate universe."
It did, but not the kind we usually see. You see, Flashpoint was a story line where the Flashes and other Speed Force members jacked up the time continuum by going to freaking fast and bursting the time barrier. That changed everything, and even caused the New 52.
How did you not see realism in MoS? I honestly found it more realistic than the comics.
"That's the same thing, right?"
Merhaps (that wasn't a misspelling, I actually say merhaps. It's funnier than Perhaps). BUT! That's the reason why destruction is a good thing for superheroes. If villains didn't cause any destruction, we wouldn't need any superheroes to save us.
Erm, hello? Every superhero quit wearing outer-underwear and tights a LONG time ago. And Aquaman isn't just a fish-man. I hate to advertize, but read my "Aquaman is an awesome superhero" debate, and you will understand that he is definitely not just a fish-man. Agent Coulson isn't even an Avenger. He just helps them.
And, finally the Joss Whedon thing. DC has a pretty good production line-up, with those like Zach Snyder, Chris Nolan, David S. Goyer, and Steven Moffat. Not to mention writers like Paul Dini.
Plus, the Avengers popularity thing. Most non-geeks only saw Avengers and it's predecessors because of it's actors.For example, a lot of teenage girls saw the movies just for RDJ and Chris x2. And Loki. Teenage boys (if they weren't geeks) mainly could've seen it for Scarlett Johannson.
(Side note: I thnk so too).
"Heh. I actually just googled her superpowers."
Google! My old nemesis.
"Hulk, for example. The definition of hulk:"
Okay, I thought I mentioned this, but I know that some of the lead avengers have obvious names, but Ms. Marvel isn't marvelous, WOlverine doesn't take the form of a wolverine, Thor (well he is the norse god thor, but he's not called hammerman) and Black Widow isn't spider person #7.
"just plain animal senses"
These things can be attributed to just about any carnivorious animal, and his claws don't look anything like a wolverines claws.
"Indeed he did. But that still goes with spider abilities."
I wouldn't classify that as an ability, more as a bonus. He didn't get the spider webs from the bite, he built it. Hell, if uncle ben had still died, he could've still built the web shooters and been a grade B spider man.
"Like Hulk, Thor, and Sentry, among many others."
These characters can be killed, they have weaknesses. Hulk is only indestructible when he's hulk. If a sniper were to shoot at him as Bruce, he would be dead. Thor isn't exactly invincible, he's just durable.
"Heh, all the 300 Spartans died"
Yeah, they did. But not because of their own strategy, because they were stabbed in the back (and I'm sure some of them literally stabbed in the back). If someone backstabbed the Avengers, they would fall as well. My point there was that The Avengers work as one unit. They all contribute. If one of the Avengers characters in the movie even were to not show up, they would've failed.
"You've got Red Tornado, an awesome android that makes, well, red tornadoes"
Okay, that guy sounds like a badass.
"You see, Flashpoint was a story line where..."
Yes, I know what flashpoint is.
"If villains didn't cause any destruction, we wouldn't need any superheroes to save us."
Not all villains are destruction villians though. The best villains are the ones who want control (or in the jokers case, chaos).
"Agent Coulson isn't even an Avenger."
There aren't "helpers" in the avengers. Everyone does their part. More than you'd think.
Okay, he's just producing stuff, and The Dark Knight trilogy is non-canon. Also, what's Moffat doing? I didn't hear about that.
And yes, people saw Avengers due to Johansson. I'm one of them.
"Google! My old nemesis."
What? What's so bad about Google? Do you prefer another search engine like Bing or Yahoo?
"Ms. Marvel isn't marvelous."
Her powers seem pretty marvelous.
"Wolverine doesn't take the form of a wolverine."
Yeah we all know that. The point is, he ACTS like a Wolverine.
"Thor (well he is the norse god thor, but he's not called hammerman."
That's like, the most obvious name of an Avengers character. His superhero name IS his real name.
"Black Widow isn't spider person #7."
But she has her bracelets, which release "widow bites".
"...and his claws don't look anything like a wolverines claws."
But they are claws, now aren't they?
"I wouldn't classify that as an ability,"
A lot of people do.
"These characters can be killed, they have weaknesses."
All JLA members can be killed.
"They all contribute."
So does the JLA.
"...they would've failed."
That's the problem. It took ALL of them to save one city.
"Okay, that guy sounds like a badass."
"Yes, I know what Flashpoint is."
"Not all villains are destriction villains though."
Yes, all villains are destruction in at least one way. Even if they just rob banks, they are causing destruction to the city's banking industry. Lol.
"There aren't "helpers" in the avengers."
Every team has helpers, it's like a law to being a good team.
"Okay, he's producing stuff."
Exactly. Producing stuff.
"Also, what's Moffat doing?"
Nothing. Just goin' off your examples.
"And yes, people saw Avengers due to Johansson. I'm one of them."
Goes with my case.
"What? What's so bad about Google?"
Oh nothing, I'm just impulsive, so when I saw that you had resources and I really DIDN'T (I'm going off my nerd knowledge), I jokingy said that.
"Her powers seem pretty marvelous."
I was going to point out *ahem* something else that was marvelous about her, but that's another joke for another time.
Dangit Babeslayer, stay on target.
"The point is, he ACTS like a Wolverine."
I always just saw it as he acts like an animal, period. He just picked Wolverine because that name is badass.
"That's like, the most obvious name of an Avengers character."
But it's his name, I mean what other superhero does that? (I'm not being sarcastic, my nerd knowledge only goes this far)
"But she has her bracelets, which release "widow bites"."
Okay, I'm mainly going off of the movies for Black Widow knowledge, she was always grey area for me, but those were tasers. I mean, call them what you will, but they're still tazers.
"But they are claws, now aren't they?"
Again, he's pure animal, not just wolverine.
"A lot of people do."
I always thought his thought process was "Hey cool, I can climb walls? This gives me an idea... web shooters!". Like, Batmans gliding thingy isn't an ability. It's a thing that just came with the superhero deal.
"All JLA members can be killed."
To an extent. The kryptonian characters can only die by kryptonite, and I hope I'm not the only one who thinks thats a bit ridiculous.
"So does the JLA."
Yeah, but they all work individually. The Avengers all work together. Without Nick Fury & Agent Coulson, they never would be assembled. Without Iron Man, the Chitari would've stayed alive and killed more New Yorkers. Without Captain America, Black Widow would've never got onto the speed-ship that got her to stark tower. Without Hawkeye, Loki would've caught up to Black Widow and killed her. Without Hulk, the monster thing would've killed the avengers and Loki wouldn't have had the snot beaten out of him leaving him unable to do anything. Without Agent Hill, the Hydra soldier would've killed Nick Fury, thus stopping everything. Without Thor, a whole group of alien serpent things would've got through to new york, and Dr. Selvik would've never been a part of the movie, which would mean Loki would turn to some other scientist without the knowledge of the tessarect to build in a failsafe. (This is all the movie, I know.)
I have yet to see the JLA do something like that. (I don't read JLA so if they did, let me know.)
"That's the problem. It took ALL of them to save one city."
Yeah. Teamwork. After all the inner conflict they had, they proved they work as such a great team they can put it all together to save the world. Instead of Batman, Superman & WOnder Woman doing something, while the other JLA help. (Again, this is my whole knowledge of the JLA.)
"Yes, all villains are destruction in at least one way"
Not the smart ones. Sure the smart ones go for metaphorical destruction, but there's a limit to a destructive character.
"Every team has helpers, it's like a law to being a good team."
There isn't helpers. There are people who help out, but it's not their entire role. Everyone contributes.
"Exactly. Producing stuff."
He was just giving the thumbs up for stuff the Man of Steel. He's the executive producer of Man of Steel 2, which means he only does marketing stuff. Thats it.
"Nothing. Just goin' off your examples."
So moffat isn't doing anything? Now I'm sad.
I'll make my final point. Both teams are great teams, filled with cool characters. In my opinion, Avengers has a bit more creativity and more teamwork.
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