The Instigator
Mercedes2017
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Blazzered
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

Keep Rebel Flags In School!

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Blazzered
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/31/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,745 times Debate No: 79232
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (12)
Votes (2)

 

Mercedes2017

Pro

In Saline County Harrisburg, Illinois High School, there was a students who was in History class when his teacher told him that his shirt offended her; so she gave him the option to go and change his shirt of leave the schools grounds. The student was very upset and left the school. Everyone who had witnessed it was furious with the teacher and they decided that they would go and start Rebellions against the school. Later in the week the Principal of the school made it a new dress code rule to not be spotted with the rebel flag on any of their attire, if they were spotted with the rebel flag on them, they would be removed from the school grounds and if they resist leave they authorities would be involved. A student from Harrisburg high School Kailee Rettinghaus has started a petition to keep the rebel flag in schools Kailee states, "The Rebel Flag is apart of History! The teacher was more worried about his clothes instead of his education. The petition I developed has at to least get 100+ signatures. After the petition is filled with signatures, it will go straight to the school board to make sure that history, even if its on a shirt, isn't taken away from us... History may repeat itself if everyone tries to hard, then this school would go down because one teacher wanted to be a baby over a kids shirt!"
Do you think that the Rebel Flag should stay in schools? Id doesn't have to be flown, but it cant be taught to be racist, because black soldiers fought in the confederate armies as well. So there is just as much black blood as there is white blood!
Blazzered

Con

I thank Mercedes2017 for putting this debate up to challenge, and I am happy to debate this topic.

Now to start off, most of what Pro has posted for round 1 is a story of what conflict has taken place at a high school. Pro claims "The teacher was more worried about his clothes instead of his education". That is not the case I am sure. Every teacher knows that education is very important. The problem here is that the student had a sign of racism and hate on his shirt. How it is a symbol of hate and racism I will get to in a moment.

Next Pro claims "it cant be taught to be racist, because black soldiers fought in the confederate armies as well". Pro has presented no proof of this claim therefore it is dismissed.
Pro then claims "there is just as much black blood as there is white blood", yet again provides no proof. Therefore the claim is dismissed.

Now, how is the confederate flag a symbol of hate and racism? Here in these pictures you can see that in modern day the confederate flag is used as a symbol of hate a racism by the American Neo-Nazis and the popular/infamous KKK, which was founded in 1865, the year the Civil war ended! Those who did not wish to give up their "heritage" banded together as a clan. This also mean the confederate flag was still being used as a symbol of hate and racism in the civil war
"The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, by six veterans of the Confederate Army."
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

KKK
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com...
https://thegrio.files.wordpress.com...
https://kickasshistory.files.wordpress.com...
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk...

Neo-Nazis
http://www.mintpressnews.com...
https://offpathhistory.files.wordpress.com...

Not only this but I also have the Charleston Church shooting to support my claim where a man gunned down 9 African Americans and wounded one other, in hopes of starting a race war. The gun man was seen in several photographs with white supremacy emblems, including the Confederate flag.

The confederate flag does in fact offend millions of Americans in a pole, people were asked if the confederate flag represented racism or southern pride.
31% said racism while 41% said Southern pride. The other 27% said neither or were unsure.
Not only this but you see a percentage of approval of displaying the flag.
25% strongly disapproving, 21% somewhat disapprove and only 12% strongly approving, 24% somewhat approving.
Overall 46% disapprove and 36% approve.
http://cdn.yougov.com...

In case Walker v. Texas Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, Inc. Texas ruled to keep the confederate off license plates. Now I know it may seem irrelevant. But this is the reason they ruled this way....
"[B]ecause public comments have shown that many members of the general public find the design offensive, and because such comments are reasonable, the Board finds that a significant portion of the public associate the Confederate flag with organizations advocating expressions of hate directed toward people or groups that is demeaning to those people or groups."
http://ourfuture.org...

In conclusion, I have presented pictures showing the confederate flag affiliated with racists and hate. I have given an example of how strong the hate is, and an example of the hate in action. I have given a poll showing peoples thoughts of the confederate flag being racist or not, and regardless to majority, 31% is still a large number of Americans compared to the 41% that disagreed, plus the disapproval vs approval percentages. Lastly I presented a court case in which the state ruled in favor that the confederate flag is indeed a symbol of hate and racism.
Debate Round No. 1
Mercedes2017

Pro

I find this to be very interesting @Blazzered. Take for example me being white and you being black. What do we have in common, lets see.... We have 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 feet, 2 hangs, 2 eyes etc. These are all the same are they not? But there is only one thing that makes us different. It's our skin color. Many people discriminate others by their race or color of skin. I'm Mexican, and it is everyday that I am called a "Beaner" or a "Border-crosser" or some piece of maybe golden bread" something like that ,I haven't figured out why they do so, but they do. I have to deal with it though. Now, I'm not saying that African-Americans have to deal with they fact that there are people in the world that hates their race, I am simply explaining that sometimes you have to let things go. Just think of it as it being one less person that you have to worry about.
Racism, in my opinion is ridiculous. The student who was kicked out of class because of his shirt was wrong because the teacher was more concerned about his shirt because the teacher was a history teacher and the shirt stated "If this shirt offends you, you are in desperate need of a history lesson", and it had the Rebel flag on it. Yes, she was offended by the choice of words on it, but she had stated "I am not racist, I just feel that since there are black kids who go to this school that it might offend them or someone who just disagrees with it" I had got some information from the student who had left home over the shirt. And he clearly states, "I wore that F**king shirt all day today and I am friends with over half the colored kids at this school, and they didn't seem offended at all, so I don't see why she (teacher) kicked me out of class for 'it might offend a colored kid at this school'!" So, in the information above that I was provided it does show that the teacher was more worried about his clothing instead of his education. After all that craziness happened, I was notified that the student who was kicked out of class had a rebel flag, hanging on the back of his truck. Someone during the day came to the students truck and set the rebel flag on fire, still being attached to his truck.

On to my next point "It cant be taught to be racist...." this is a very good one to explain from my point of view and from another's point of view. Why that is, is because coming from my stand point I can see that millions of people I'm sure see the flag to be a huge part of their heritage and that the flag supports their Southern pride or pride in general. But from other standpoints they see the flag to be a threat because of the past history that it came along with. But I am sure that things have changed sent the Confederate war. How I know that is because there are many people, colored people who have no problem with the flag, the pictures that I cited below will prove it. One holds the flag up, still he holds the flag knowing about the flags history. His name is Byron Thomas and he says "the flag's real meaning has been hijacked".
"A black college student who drew complaints for displaying a Confederate flag in his dorm room window said he sees the banner as a symbol of Southern pride and not racism. The 19-year-old student at the University of South Carolina Beaufort took the flag down at the university's request, but he said he's considering putting it back up after the officials relented. Byron Thomas has drawn nearly 70,000 views since he posted a video online in which he acknowledges: "I know it's kind of weird because I'm black."
"When I look at this flag, I don't see racism. I see respect, Southern pride," he said. "This flag was seen as a communication symbol" during the Civil War.
He said university officials asked him to take the banner down just before Thanksgiving after students and parents complained when it was seen by them on campus tours, but have since told him he can put it back up.
The freshman from North Augusta said his generation can eliminate the flag's negative power by adopting the banner as a symbol of Southern pride.
"I've been getting a lot of support from people. My generation is interested in freedom of speech," Thomas said.
The flag only has as much meaning as you put to it. So I don't see why everyone automatically sees the flag as being racist.
There is even a video, if you go to the link below, of the Thomas speaking and defending his part and why he wont take the flag down. The change has to happen at some point, why cant it start now?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

The Rebel flag in modern day is not always used as hate and racist. As I said once before and I woke ever get tired saying it. The flag represent many things, most things don't ever matter anymore because some people don't see it that way anymore, but it represent a state of pride and heritage and that southern type of pride that is passed down from generation to generation. Just because back then it was used as racism, it doesn't mean it would be used a racism in todays society. So why does everyone automatically assume that?

Some people still cling on to the past and still use the flag in racist terms. Which is very immature and irresponsible if you ask me, because weather or not they used it for their southern pride or just because they strongly dislike colored people. It don't mean that everyone thinks the same thing when they see the flag in general.
@Blizzered you said yourself "...41% said that they seen it as southern pride, and the other 27% said neither or were unsure. Not only this but you see a percentage of approval of displaying the flag." So not everyone sees it that way, things have changed and have been out dated nowadays. "...36% approve." 36% is better then 0%. who knows 36% can go a long way, not far, but far enough to know that someone has noticed it already.

In conclusion, I feel that the flag isn't racist and that some people should stop over exaggerating when it comes to the flag. Not everyone is the same way nor do they think the same way. "Don't judge a book by its cover, but by the pages in the book."
Blazzered

Con

Pro starts off in her first paragraph saying that the only thing that makes us different is our skin color. I do not see how this relevant to the debate, since this debate is about the rebel flag being kept in school or not. Pro then starts to tell of the racism she has to deal with herself. This is sad, but it is also not relevant to the debate. Even so, not everyone deals with racism the same way.
Pro then says "I'm not saying that African-Americans have to deal with they fact that there are people in the world that hates their race, I am simply explaining that sometimes you have to let things go."
Again, everyone deals with things differently. Letting go isn't always so easy, especially when you are being judged not by your personality or actions, but by your race. By the color of your skin.

"Racism, in my opinion is ridiculous."
Whats important are facts, not opinions

"Yes, she was offended by the choice of words on it, but she had stated "I am not racist, I just feel that since there are black kids who go to this school that it might offend them or someone who just disagrees with it""
As I said in the previous round, the teacher was concerned about the student having a symbol of racism and hate on his shirt. Indeed, not everyone may be offended by it. But that doesn't mean no one will. In the previous round I posted a poll that should that many people believe the Rebel flag is a symbol of hate and racism and many people disproved of it, more so than approved.

Pro then quotes the student, saying "I wore that F**king shirt all day today and I am friends with over half the colored kids at this school, and they didn't seem offended at all, so I don't see why she (teacher) kicked me out of class for 'it might offend a colored kid at this school'!"
Again, I previously posted a poll as evidence that a large amount of people do think it is offensive. Regardless of how many at the school thought it wasn't, it doesn't change the fact that many people may get offended by it.
Think of it as if someone wore a swastika to school. It is a part of Germany's history and is also a symbol of hate and racism. Do we allow it in schools? No we do not. Because people may get offended by it, like how people may get offended by the Rebel flag.

"So, in the information above that I was provided it does show that the teacher was more worried about his clothing instead of his education."
The teacher was worried of students being offended. The teacher was concerned of the student having a flag of racism and hate on his shirt.

"After all that craziness happened, I was notified that the student who was kicked out of class had a rebel flag, hanging on the back of his truck. Someone during the day came to the students truck and set the rebel flag on fire, still being attached to his truck."
Pro helps prove my point here that people do in fact think the rebel flag is offensive, racist, and hateful! There is no other reason someone would do such a thing. Pro did not help herself by stating this, she instead helped prove my case.

"But from other standpoints they see the flag to be a threat because of the past history that it came along with."
Threats that still go on today, from the KKK and the Neo-Nazi's.

"How I know that is because there are many people, colored people who have no problem with the flag, the pictures that I cited below will prove it. One holds the flag up, still he holds the flag knowing about the flags history."
Again while there may be people that do not find it offensive, there are still a great amount of people who do find it racist/hateful and a greater majority disapprove of it that approve it. I posted the poll in the previous round to prove this claim.

Pro then goes on to tell a story of someone who is African American and doesn't see the flag as racist. I keep saying this throughout this round, and I will keep saying it to get my point across. There may be people who do not find the rebel flag racist, however, there is still a great amount of people who see it as racist, as it represents not only slavery, but the KKK, Neo-Nazism, and the racism that comes from such. Pro can continue to argue that there are people that do not find the flag racist. The same argument can be used for the swastika. As long as there are still a great amount of people to disprove of it, and be offended by it, it should not be allowed in school. The flag is still used as a symbol of racism by a great many. The flag is still seen as a symbol of racism.
"Just because back then it was used as racism, it doesn't mean it would be used a racism in today's society."
It IS used for racism in today's society by the KKK and the Neo-Nazis! I will post the links to the pictures once again!
KKK
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com...
https://thegrio.files.wordpress.com...
https://kickasshistory.files.wordpress.com...
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk...

Neo-Nazis
http://www.mintpressnews.com...
https://offpathhistory.files.wordpress.com...

"Some people still cling on to the past and still use the flag in racist terms. Which is very immature and irresponsible if you ask me, because weather or not they used it for their southern pride or just because they strongly dislike colored people. It don't mean that everyone thinks the same thing when they see the flag in general."
The same exact thing can be said for the swastika, and German pride. There may be people out that don't see it as racist, that doesn't mean we ignore the other great amount of people who do think it is racist and offensive.

Pro then quotes only a small part of what I said, because she believes it helps her case, but then ignores the part that hurts her case. "31% said racism while 41% said Southern pride. The other 27% said neither or were unsure."
Pro ignored the 31% of people who see the flag as racist. Regardless of it being a less than those who see it as southern pride, 31% is still a mass amount of people of find the flag racist. This is why the rebel flag should be kept out of school.

"Not only this but you see a percentage of approval of displaying the flag.
25% strongly disapproving, 21% somewhat disapprove and only 12% strongly approving, 24% somewhat approving.
Overall 46% disapprove and 36% approve."
More people disapprove of the flag than approve, now I just stated that regardless of the minority, it is still a mass amount, however, the fact that there are more people who disapprove of displaying the flag, does indeed support my case that the flag should not be in school.

The fact is, a large amount of people still find the flag to be racist, hateful, and offensive. School is a place where there should be no feelings of hate, racism, or offense. School is suppose to be a positive environment and a great amount of people still see the flag as something negative. Because of this, the flag should be kept out of school.

In conclusion, I have stated only facts. I have given evidence to prove my claims, such as the poll, the pictures, and the sources of history. I have even presented a court case in which Texas ruled that they still found the flag to be racist. hateful, and offensive. The case even said "a significant portion of the public associate the Confederate flag with organizations advocating expressions of hate directed toward people or groups that is demeaning to those people or groups.". I have provided more sources than Pro, I have given examples of how the flag is still a racist symbol even today. With all the evidence I have presented, I think it is safe to conclude that the rebel flag should be kept out of school.
Debate Round No. 2
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ax123man 1 year ago
ax123man
a timely post on zero hedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com...
Posted by NotThatClever 1 year ago
NotThatClever
While I disagree with Con here on many points, this debate was handily won by him. My vote will reflect as much. Well done.
Posted by TubOLard 1 year ago
TubOLard
It's too bad that these conversations often come down to the silliness of heritage versus hate. It's people who take the incorrect positions of the Civil War being about nothing but slavery, or that slavery had nothing to do with it. It's the next big thing for outrage until uninformed people move on to something else on the internet.
Posted by TBSmothers 1 year ago
TBSmothers
@Blizzerd I would but I feel that the flag doesn't bear as much weight as it use to. So arguing for banning the confederate flag in schools wouldn't feel right to me.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
@TBSmothers, if you are going to argue against, why not accept the challenge rather than try to debate in the comments?
Posted by TBSmothers 1 year ago
TBSmothers
Can't be taught to be racist*
Posted by TBSmothers 1 year ago
TBSmothers
@Mercedes2017 You stated that the "rebel flag" can't be taught as on of racism because "black soldiers fought in the confederate armies as well." This is no reason for the flag not to be considered racist since "Only a handful of black soldiers, probably less than 50, enlisted because of this legislation and were still in training when the war ended." (http://www.historynet.com...). Whether the flag is still stands for racism and rebellion today is debatable but, the confederate flag was created as a symbol of racism and rebellion and should be taught as this.
Posted by ax123man 1 year ago
ax123man
Well, there were some black slaveholders in U.S. prior to the civil war. I doubt they fought to keep slavery, but then that's just more proof the civil war was about much more than just slavery.

Anyway, re: the debate topic, this type of pathetic political correctness needs to be stamped out where ever it is encountered. What kind of teacher wants to suppress both free speech and history itself?
Posted by Mercedes2017 1 year ago
Mercedes2017
To TBSmothers, I wasn't implying that the blacks fought for slavery, if anything i'm against slavery and all that. But I was meant mostly to say that the blacks fought for their country just as much as the whites did.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 1 year ago
9spaceking
Mercedes2017BlazzeredTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Remind me to vote on this when there are ~3days left in voting period
Vote Placed by ColeTrain 1 year ago
ColeTrain
Mercedes2017BlazzeredTied
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Total points awarded:02 
Reasons for voting decision: Though most were only photos, Con provided better and more sources to back his claims. Arguments were very close, both having merit and both logical.