The Instigator
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
18 Points
The Contender
solo
Con (against)
Winning
64 Points

Kenya is a perfect example of what happens when Islamists get to be 10% of the population- anarchy

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/11/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,114 times Debate No: 1704
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (26)

 

Solarman1969

Pro

Keyna is a perfect example of all that is wrong with the world in a nutshell

Islamists are trying to forceably take over Kenya

The Media is distorting this, calling the violence "tribal"

It is not "tribal" it is Islamist vs Christian

We need to support completely the Chrisitians and reject the islamists

They are trying to murder their way into power and impose Sharia law

Dear Friends, This is an article I wrote to the various world news papers hoping that they may publish it in an attempt to enlighten people about what is happening in Kenya and especially with the opposition leader who is trying to introduce genocide to Kenya while the world watches on. Please would you pass the word to all people of Good Will. Kenya has been a peaceful country up to now. Tribes have coexisted and suffered together through abusive government. It has never been the Kikuyu fault for they too have been suppressed and have undergone every political evil that has befallen Kenya. President Mwai Kibaki who has received very little support from world nations have tried to introduce democracy and true freedom to Kenya for the past five years. Now all the good that he did is about to be reduced to nothing by a power hungry communist politician who is trying to play a tribal card to bring other tribes against one tribe, Kikuyu. Why are the Kikuyu people hated so much by the west that while genocide has been evident in the last 2 weeks, nobody is condemning Raila Odinga the opposition leader who is behind the animosity, but instead they are blaming president Kibaki who is trying to bring peace and hold the country together/ I beg you please, do you have any voice? Tell the world about it by just telling your friends or who ever you may get hold of. So many people are following the news about Kenya and they are not told the truth but are told of a situation where everything seems to be directing culpability on president Kibaki such that if the violence spills out of control, Raila will get more sympathy and the genocide of the Kikuyu people be seen as OK. It is not OK to kill Kikuyu people or any other people in the world. Please see the article below and do something.

HELP Stop Raila: Stop a repeat of Rwandan genocide in Kenya by Raila Odinga: Dear editor, 1. Raila is a Communist who believes in violence and class struggle as the only way to bring social and political change: I am surprised that the western diplomats and the press that is reporting about the state of the Kenyan politics and national affairs are so much sympathetic with the ODM leader Raila Odinga and not with the current Kenya Government of president Kibaki. It is a known fact that Raila, educated in the then communist East Germany adapted communist ideals with such a strong commitment to their champions that he even named his son Fidel Castro. With his communist ideals, he is committed to violence in Kenya where innocent people are dying from gangs trained, funded and sponsored by him. Long before the elections, there was news and speculations of Raila training secret army to destabilize the country if the election results never went his way. He himself has not denied being behind the genocide that is taking place in Kenya. Recently in a TV interview was challenged to ask his supporters to stop violence and his response was that to tell them to stop violence is like giving them anesthesia to knock them out to facilitate their being raped. This is very clear that he is behind the killings and his intention is to continue with violence. It was also reported in the press that during the Election Day his supporters refused fair and democratic exercise of the election process by coercing people to vote for him and suppressing those who would have otherwise voted for the Party of National Unity. They even killed policemen who were guarding the polling station. It should also be noted that the tribal violence that is being reported in Kenya is very much one sided. Raila has trained gangsters who are attacking only one ethnic group, the Kikuyu. The Kikuyu are not fighting back but are only joining other Kenyans in prayers for peace as their lives are taken and their properties destroyed. There is a problem in reporting because most of the coverage is failing to condemn the killings whose silence look like a justification that it is OK to kill the Kikuyu people. It is not OK to kill the Kikuyu, for they are Kenyans like any other Kenyans and they have the right to live and own property in Kenya. To put the record straight, it is not the Luo people as a tribe who are attacking the Kikuyu people. Common Luo folks are good, peaceful, well educated, and have lived side by side with Kikuyu people ever since the Colonial times and they have never attacked one another. Of course the Colonialists who used the divide and rule method told Luos that the Kikuyus are bad and vise versa they told the Kikuyus that the Luos were bad people. However, with the fact that the two tribes do not share common ancestral boundaries, there was never a chance for them to practice what was taught them by the colonialists, to hate one another. They fought for independence together and they won. With the influence of foreign governments the past Kenyan regimes have suppressed the Luo and Kikuyu people alike until the government of Mwai Kibaki who have led Kenyans to the taste of true democracy. During the dictatorial rule of former regimes, nobody could have criticized the government. It was President Kibaki who removed the taboo. 2.Kenyan Elections were free and fair before the eyes of International observers, Journalist and Diplomatis: Foreign press and diplomats were invited to Kenya by president Kibaki as observers to Kenya to monitor the state of affairs during the presidential election exercises. At the end of the day, they all agreed that the elections were done in a peaceful and transparent way that was fair. However, nobody mentioned that the constituents where the opposition had stronghold were no go zones for the Party of National Unity (PNU) or the Kibaki supporters. The counting of the ballots started with most of the opposition constituents where Raila was winning. Before the election council had gone through half of the counting, Raila asked President Kibaki to concede defeat. Kibaki gave the commonsense answer that they should wait until the last votes were counted. When finally the Election Council started counting ballots from the PNU stronghold constituents Kibaki started winning. Raila started protesting saying that the votes were being rigged. However, the international observers and diplomats who were at the counting venue testified that the elections were fair and free. It was only after that the story was changed and Kibaki was accused of rigging the elections. Kibaki agreed for a recount but Raila refused. He asked for dialogue but Raila refused. Raila's people started killing the Kikuyu people in Nyanza province, Eldoret, Kakamega, Nairobi and Mombasa. However, Kibaki did not tell his supporters to retaliate and start killing the Luo people. As the president he had to deploy the police to protect innocent citizens as any president would do in any country in the world. While President Kibaki has continued deploying the police to restore peace and security in the country, he is being accused of genocide. I think this is too much one sided. The opposition was asked why their followers are killing other people and perpetuating violence and they said (Mr. Ruto) that they are not in charge of security in the country. So they want to say even if they are the ones responsible for violence, they are not to blame but the president who is trying to stop it. They know that the president of Kenya has the responsibility of ensuring security for all in the country. The international community should even commend the good job done by president Kibaki.
solo

Con

There are plenty of countries that are over 90% Islamic and they are not in a state of anarchy. Nor were they in a state of anarchy when they represented only 10% of the population. Kenya is NOT a perfect example of what happens; it's actually quite unique.

I thank you for that Copy & Pasted letter. It was riveting. How not one single major publication put it on their frontpage is beyond me. Alas, it does not support your argument in reality.
Debate Round No. 1
Solarman1969

Pro

Lets first take a closer look at Kenya, and then other nearby African nations, and then I will look at Islamic countries and show that indeed, they are ALL screwed up and full of violence and chaos, if not anarchy

Look at Pakistan , for example.

Or Iran.

But back the situation in Kenya

From my previous post, we see a first hand account of the Islamists trying to lie cheat steal and kill their way into power.

it is entirely driven by their Islamist ideology- Islam teaches that it is totally superior to everything else, and should force its way into power, and impose Sharia and a caliphate

This is NOT deniable.

READ THIS

http://eakenya.org...

This is the MOU of the Islamists in Kenya

You MUST read the WHOLE thing

This is CASE IN POINT what the Islamists do and want

It states

(1) Islam is the ONLY religion- the Christians be damned

(2) when elected,

(a) the council of Islamists have control over ALL other religions and can deny anything they like

(b) Impose Sharia law

(c) dismiss the police , calling them "zionists" - code nazi propaganda

(d) fight on the side of the terrorists, and deny any foreign country from fighting terror in Kenya

(e) establish Sharia courts, replacing the current judicial system (good luck getting any justice there ! )

(f) implement madrassas and teach only Islam

(g) Impose a BAN on Christians (and of course KILL THEM)

(h) impose restictions on clothes, alcoholic beverages etc

Now they LOST the election, fair and square and are rioting and killing

this IS what happens when muslims get to be about 10% of the population

want some other examples

FRANCE- daily riots and "no go" areas - all muslims

ENGLAND- bombings, attempts at creating "no go" separate areas

GERMANY - attempts to implement sharia courts and justify "honor" killings

NETHERLANDS- same thing -

THAILAND- a coup by muslims- taking over the country and suppressing Christians and Buddhists

and the list goes on and on

Lets look at the SUDAN

Islamists murdering animists and Christians

ISLAM MUST BE BANNED

ISLAM MUST BE BANNED

I repeat

ISLAM MUST BE BANNED

Islam is the ENEMY of mankind

Sooner or later you will get it

Muhammad's Tribe

Why did the Muslim Middle East become so violent? Philip Carl Salzman explains how Bedouin politics became embedded in modern Islamic sociology

Today's religious map of the Middle East traces to the unification of the Arabian tribes under the banner of Islam in the 7th century, and their subsequent conquest of much of the known world. Muhammad's genius was in finding a way to unite the myriad of fissiparous, feuding Bedouin tribes of northern Arabia into a cohesive polity. Just as he had provided a constitution of rules under which the people of Medina could live together, so he provided a constitution for all Arabs, but this one had the imprimatur not just of Muhammad, but of God. Submission -- Islam -- to God and His rules, spelled out in the Koran, bound Arabian tribesmen into the community of believers, the umma.

Building on the tribal system of "balanced opposition" -- the subject of yesterday's essay -- Muhammad was able to frame an inclusive structure within which the tribes had a common, God-given identity as Muslims. But unification was only possible by creating a tribalized enemy against which Muslims could make common cause. This Muhammad did by opposing Muslims against infidels; and the dar al-Islam, the land of Islam and peace, against the dar al-harb, the land of infidels and conflict. Through the precepts of Islam, traditional Bedouin raiding was sanctified as an act of religious duty.

With every successful battle against local unbelievers, especially after the critical early battle against the Meccans, more Bedouin joined the umma. Once united, the Bedouin warriors of the umma turned outward, teaching the world the meaning of jihad, holy war. The rest, as they say, is history.

The Arabs, in lightning thrusts, challenged and beat the Byzantines to the north and the Persians to the east, both weakened by their continuous wars with one another, thus imposing their control over the Christian majority in the Levant and the Zoroastrian majority in Persia, and therefore over the entire Middle East. These stunning successes were rapidly followed by conquests of Christian and Jewish populations in Egypt, Libya and North Africa's Maghreb (Arabic for "the West"), and, in the east, central Asia and the Hindu population of northern India. Not content with these triumphs, Arab armies invaded and subdued much of Christian Spain and Portugal, and all of Sicily. Since the Roman Empire, the world had not seen such power and reach. All fell before the Saracen blades.

Most accounts of Islamic history, even that of the Lindholm's esteemed The Islamic Middle East, glide over these conquests, as if they were friendly takeovers. But the truth was very different.

The evidence is overwhelming that vast numbers of infidel male warriors and civilians were slain, and that most of those spared, particularly the women and children, were enslaved for domestic and sexual servitude. While men who willingly converted were spared, their wives and children were taken as slaves. In conquered regions, children were

regularly taken from parents, while on the borders -- especially in Central and Eastern Europe, Central Asia and Africa south of the Sahara -- raiding for slaves was normal practice. Of the male slaves, a substantial number were made eunuchs by the removal of sex organs, in order to serve in harems. This account of the Arab campaign in northern India illustrates the usual procedures:

"During the Arab invasion of Sindh (712 CE), Muhammad bin Qasim first attacked Debal´┐ŻIt was garrisoned by 4,000 Kshatriya soldiers and served by 3,000 Brahmans. All males of the age of 17 and upwards were put to the sword and their women and children were enslaved. "[Seven hundred]

beautiful females, who were under the protection of Budh (that is, had taken shelter in the temple), were all captured with their valuable ornaments, and clothes adorned with jewels." Muhammad dispatched one-fifth of the legal spoil to Hajjaj, which included 75 damsels, the other four-fifths were distributed among soldiers."

The multitude of reports from Muslim, indigenous and other sources of the Islamic conquests are equally detailed and equally daunting to a modern reader. It is true that throughout history intergroup relations in most of the world were exploitative and repressive, and not infrequently brutal and bloodthirsty. The world of Islam was not so much an exception to this, as exemplary of it.

The theological foundation of the Arab Empire was the supremacy of Islam and the obligation of each Muslim to advance its domination. The notion of Jihad, in particular, served to establish the Muslim community's permanent state of war against the dar al-harb until the infidels' conclusive submission and the absolute world supremacy of Islam.

Yet even as Islamic armies were coming to dominate the known world, fissures emerged within Islam, which would give rise to the bloody internecine battles that continue to this day in Iraq and elsewhere.

Most notably, the relentless oppositions within tribal life have been reflected on a large scale in the battles between Sunni vs. Shiite, a battle originating in a squabble between closely related kin groups over the leadership of the Islamic empire following Muhammad's death. Their divergent philosophical orientations are based on two tribal principles: Sunnism recognizes leaders based on consent; Shiism recognizes leaders based on descent. The continued anatagonism between the two groups constitutes one of the many ways in which the tribal spirit continues its dominance in the Middle East.

SOLARMAN
solo

Con

I consider your argument invalid, as it is Christian nonsense. http://eakenya.org... is an evalgelical garbage website. Being an atheist who is quite firm in his position and the position that Christianity is one big lie, I don't accept your post in Round Two. You have one round left to fix this mess. Do your best.
Debate Round No. 2
Solarman1969

Pro

although your response is totall lacking

I AM going to take complete issue with your statements here, as they are ANTI-CHRISTIAN

Here are your statements

I consider your argument invalid, as it is Christian nonsense.

What is Christian nonsense ?

you say the Evangelical Alliance of Kenya is.

"http://eakenya.org...... is an evalgelical garbage website."

http://eakenya.org...

And thus, you attack Christians in general with your Athestic point of view

"Being an atheist who is quite firm in his position and the position that Christianity is one big lie, I don't accept your post in Round Two"

So you completely DISREGARD the threat of Islamists through your disdain for Christ?

that is your point?

This debate over whether or not Islam is a threat.

Whether or not, as in Kenya, when the muslims get to be a signifcant section of the population , trouble begins.

Riots.

Murder.

Separation of muslims from regular society

Preparations to take over, by force, intimidation, and violence, the country

This is ALWAYS the case.

Islam itself teaches this

You, a typical liberal have been so conditioned to FEAR Christians, that you are BLIND to the threats that face the world.

Christianity is TOTALLY compatable with FREEDOM.

ALL Christian run countries are FREE.

Christians believe that Christs inherent message was the message of the soul, and love, and the love of God.

The founding fathers believed that our rights come from GOD and not man.

This is why the US is the greatest country this world has even known.

We are FREE.

this organization that you casually TRASH so casually, lets look at hat their mission statements are

* to foster a national forum for partnership
* to spread the gospel of Jesus in a Holistic way
* to provide a forum for the advocacy and leadership issues for the
spritual
social
and physical welfare of the nation
* to train and build capacity to reach TRUE potential
* To facilitate research, study and assistance to member churches and groups in cross-cultural missions and discipling the nation
* To assist member churches and groups in locating, sharing and utilizing resources for the most effective implementation of their common visions, missions and objectives
* To facilitate conflict and dispute resolution and peace building within and outside EAK membership

This is a PEACFUL AND WONDERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE that are trying to bring Kenya into the modern world and end poverty and disease for Gods sake.

and yet YOU call them

"Christian nonsense"

"evalgelical garbage"

"one big lie"

So you are going to TRASH the people there who are aiming to UPLIFT society and you

REFUSE TO ADRESS THE MUSLIMS who are trying to VIOLENTLY IMPOSE THEIR EVIL WILL UPON THESE PEOPLE.

They are IMMOLATING ALIVE FRIGHTENED WOMEN AND CHILDREN in their churches, after driving them in with guns

So, you, atheist, I suppose see no problem with that since they are

"Christian nonsense"

"evalgelical garbage"

"one big lie"

You will sit back and allow these peaceful , caring people to be SLAUGHTERED

History is REPLETE with immoral people like you who allow people like Hitler to come to power and exert their evil wills

Your hatred for Christains which has been installed in you by marxist types in this nation is making you blind.

Whether or not you are a Christian or a "atheist" who disregards and disdains peoples' faith in Christ, you still have to be able to JUDGE BEHAVIOR and make decisions regarding what YOU DETERMINE to be good and evil

If you do not stand up for good and against evil, you are a COWARD

and your place in this world will be a unremarkable one

Now I go back to my point.

What is it about ISLAM that causes this behavior?

What is Sharia law?

Traditional Muslims who understand the Quran and the hadith believe that sharia (Islamic law) expresses the highest and best goals for all societies. It is the will of Allah.

But is Islam just in its laws that Muhammad himself practiced and invented?

Islamic types argue about this ad nauseum and interpret things 1000 ways

However here are 10 CLEAR REASONS WHY SHARIA IS WRONG

http://www.americanthinker.com...

please read this in its entirety and then you will have a better understanding of why Sharia, Islamic law, is wrong for ANY society and needs to be OPPOSED COMPLETELY and BANNED here.

It is an INSIDIOUS CRUEL doctrine that will lead only to suppression and misery, and the gathering of power by a few small evil men.

Now, I have already ad nausem shown the Christians have NO SUCH doctrine that purports to take over legal and political and social systems

Neither do the buddhists, of which I am one, which is not a religion at all

Neither do any other religious group OTHER than the muslims

The only other insidious EVIL force is COMMUNISM

COMMUNISM IS a GOVERNMENT PHILOSOPHY THAT HAS AS ITS HEART ATHEISM

Communism, just like Islam is SUPPRESSIVE and ANTI FREEDOM

the STATE is God.

You are FORBIDDEN from being religious

You brainwashed liberals think ALL RELIGION IS THE THREAT to you

That is only PARTIALLY TRUE

There are TWO THREATS to FREEDOM AND LIBERTY

(1) ISLAM

and

(2) BIG GOVERMENT

the former is not much of a threat here YET, but they are trying to build up steam, and slowly gain power by increasing their numbers, decreasing their interaction with society, and through legal means to eliminate surveillance and free speech about them through CAIR and other front groups

the Commies have pretty much been vetted here and dont have a prayer - the Chicoms are going to go down eventually and are already neutered by their own success in the world

North Korea? a total joke, a dangerous joke, but a pathetic Joke nonetheless

Cuba? hah - a total disaster

Islam, however, through the CLOAK of "religious freedom" are trying to implement their will

SHARIA LAW and a WORLDWIDE CALIPHATE OVER ALL NATIONS

If you think I am wrong

Simply LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY

LOOK AT THE DOCUMENT I have sent

This is a BLUEPRINT for Islamists

Here is your daily toll

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace

1/14/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Three children are among eleven killed in a bombing by Islamic militants outside a textile factory.
1/14/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - Islamists ambush and kill eight local soldiers in a vicious attack that leaves them beheaded, shot or blasted to death.
1/14/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Religious extremists attack a hotel with suicide vests and machine-guns, managing to kill six people in the lobby.
1/13/2008 (Medea, Algeria) - Islamic fundamentalists machine-gun three kids to death as they are gathering chestnust.
1/13/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - Islamic gunmen shoot a man in the back of the head as he is watching television.
1/12/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - Two Red Crescent workers are killed by suspected members of an Islamic militia.

Note that NONE of these is Iraq

So a WARNING to you ATHEIST TYPES

If you are a COMMIE, get out of my country and go live in some hell hole commie nation

If you are a Christian hater, GROW UP- Christians are nice peaceful people that have your interests at heart

If you dont value freedom, and arent willing to fight to protect it, you are not worthy of living in this great nation

So think long and hard about what I am saying in these pages, becuase the war in ON and its going to be long and bloody one.

Until everyone is free of tyranny, the war is not over

The war is for FREEDOM for all the world.

SOLARMAN

The countries
solo

Con

Solarman1969... *sigh* Your website is spewing propaganda, just like you, for your irrational discrimination against Islam. You HATE Islamists and you just want to rant questionable information from questionable websites. I may have disdain for Christianity, but not more so than any other religion. I just won't stomach one form of nonsense bashing another. If you wanted to be taken seriously you could have cited CNN or MSNBC or a myriad of other sources to back your claim, but you did not. And do you know why? Yes, you do, as do I -- because no credible or responsible or respectable news organization would publish such ridiculous rubbish. It's a rant and you have not supported the argument at all.

"Kenya is a perfect example of what happens when Islamists get to be 10% of the population- anarchy"

I clearly stated:

"There are plenty of countries that are over 90% Islamic and they are not in a state of anarchy. Nor were they in a state of anarchy when they represented only 10% of the population. Kenya is NOT a perfect example of what happens; it's actually quite unique."

You failed to address this simple point, which was the focus of this debate.

You didn't even provide a single counter-argument to mine, and YOU are the one the made the challenge.

Thanks for the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by rwebberc 9 years ago
rwebberc
Wow. I actually voted for solarman. That's a tough accomplishment, solo.
Posted by bringtheshred429 9 years ago
bringtheshred429
Not only did you not debate, and continue to spread your ridiculous hateful slander (I've seen your "debates" before) but your point is ludicrous. Ignoring that Kenya suffers from the painful turmoil that is Africa today and that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with corruption, inadequate government and the aftermath of colonialism, the basis of your mind-boggling claim is also flawed.

solo stated it perfectly in Round 3, I can make no better argument than that.

I can say this, as a fellow Atheist, I agree completely that this argument is the product of your closed-minded and violently hateful tradition, and i submit that if you were not so firm in your anglo-centric worldview and your delightfully bigoted faith you would not be a proponent of this Nazi-esque crime against civilization.
Posted by GBretz 9 years ago
GBretz
Solo, you didn't debate. Don't accuse him of not addressing a counter argument when you yourself addressed only one aspect of his argument, and dismissed the rest saying, "Its a rant." I would like to see this debate again, done correctly.

Vote goes to Solar. I disagree on many issues with him, but he clearly won this debate simply because you refused to refute his argument concretely.
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solo
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