Kevin Durant is a better overall basketball player than Kobe Bryant.
| Started: | 5/19/2012 | Category: | Sports |
| Updated: | 11 months ago | Status: | Post Voting Period |
| Viewed: | 4,210 times | Debate No: | 23687 |
 Pro I affrim the resolution. First round is for acceptance only. No semantics. No arguments in the comments section after the debate. KD35 vs. The Black Mamba.  Con |
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Pro “He’s 7 feet tall and he’s running around like a two-guard. He can handle the ball, he can take you off the dribble, he can post you up, he shoots over you. You can’t trap him because he sees right over you. I don’t think in the years that I’ve coached and played . . . there’s ever been a more difficult guy to prepare for. You really feel like you’re wasting your time doing it. He’s going to probably score anyway.” Before I begin, I would like to clarify a few things. 1) Kevin Durant is in his 5th year in the NBA. Kobe Bryant is in his 16th. It would be asinine to list their accomplishments and declare Kobe a better player upon those grounds alone. When reviewing my opponent's arguments, it must be kept in mind that Bryant has been in the NBA for 11 more years. 2) Second, the debate resolution clearly says "is," not "was." However, I will allow Con to give career arguments if placed on par with Durant (keeping in mind that Kobe has had over 3 times as long to build up those accomplishments). Arguments based on this season and post-season should be weighted MUCH more heavily than career arguments as per the resolution.
--Celtic's coach, Doc Rivers
Kevin Durant has had a spectacular 2011-12 regular season. Kobe, by comparison, is lacking.
Kobe:27.9 Durant: 30 FG %. Kobe: 43% Durant: 50%
Kobe: 30% Durant 39% Kobe: 85% Durant: 88%
Durant has averaged 1.2 blocks per game and 1.3 steals per game (even though he is neither a guard nor PG). Kobe on the other hand averaged a pathetic 0.3 blocks per game. He also averaged fewer steals with 1.2 per game, even with the benefit of being a guard. Durant is also better in defensive rebounding. He averaged 7.4 defensive rebounds per game compared to Kobe's 4.3. BPG. Kobe:0.3 Durant: 1.2 SPG Kobe: 1.2 Durant: 1.3 RPG. Kobe: 5 Durant 8 In both areas, Durant is much better.
II. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Post-Season.
First, I would like to point out that OKC has lost only 1 of its 9 playoff games, the second best record in the League, led by Kevin Durant. The Lakers by comparison have lost 7 of their 12 games. In fact, it was Kevin Durant and OKC that knocked Kobe out of the playoffs in a 5-game series (winning 4/5). Kobe again resorted to volume-shooting, shooting at 43% compared to Durant's 49%. His 3-point percentage was 28% compared to Durant's 37%. Points per game. Kobe: 30 Durant: 27 Rebounds. Kobe: 4.8 Durant: 8.1 FG%. Kobe: 43% Durant: 49% 3-Pt %. Kobe: 28% Durant: 37% FT %. Kobe: 83% Durant 84% III. Clutch Performances. All season, Durant has been clutch. In games against the Mavs (three times), Houston, Minnesota, Portland, etc.
In the playoffs, he made clutch shots in Game 1 (game winner), Game two, and Game 4, as well as Game 4 of the OKC/Lakers series.
2008 Rookie of the years. 2010 Scoring Champion. 2011 Scoring Champion. 2012 Scoring Champion. Kid Clutch. Kevin Durant is quite obviously the better player. Vote Pro.
Con -"Doc Rivers 1) I'd like to first state that Kobe Bryant has about 11 years on Kevin Durant. So if I'm not going to have Kobe Bryant win through only accomplishments, I'd like for Kevin Durant to not win by statistics. Since Kevin Durant is entering his prime while Kobe Bryant is barely making it through games. Thus, it would be absolutely unfair to declar Kevin Durant a better player just because of his statistics. When reviewing my opponent's arguments, it must be kept in mind that Kevin Durant is in his early age while Kobe Bryant is at his retirement age. 2) I understand that. I will also allow my opponent to make statistic arguments (while keeping in mind that Kobe Bryant is 11 years older than him). I disagree that you can state career arguments don't weigh as much as season arguments. Arguments based on this season and post-season are clearly incorrect since Kobe Bryant is at retirement age while Kevin Durant is at his prime. I. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Regular Season. A. I agree that Kevin Durant has been a much better player this season than Kobe Bryant but people must remember Kevin Durant is at his prime (22) while Kobe Bryant is at retirement age (33). Thus, I state that my opponent's arguments are based entirely on a 10 year difference. The fact that Kobe Bryant was able to be 0.1% from Kevin Durant's average, 7% from his Field Goal perccentage and 24% of his three-point percentage is admirable since he's 10 years older than him. I mean it would be like comparing Steve Nash currently (38) to LeBron James (27). How is that even close to fair? I'm stating that we should compare Kevin Durant's current year to Kobe Bryant's fifth year. Thus, I'd state it's impressive to be that close when you're nearly 11 years older. I'm laughing hard right now. I can't believe you actually think four shots more makes Kobe Bryant a "selfish shooter". I mean I like the "Patient shooter" but you can't possibly state that Kevin Durant "finds more scoring opportunities than Kobe, he scores at a higher percentage in EVERY area, some by huge margins" when he's 10 years older than him right now right? "PPG. Kobe: 27.9 Durant: 30" You made a fallacy. You stated two contradictory things. First, you state Kevin Durant scored 28 points on average in the season. Now, you state Kevin Durant scores 30 points on average. Which is it? Either way, it is still impressive to be 10 years older than someone and be 0.1 or 2.1 points away from tying with someone 10 years younger than him. Well, I'll be doing an accurate analysis later on. "FG %. Kobe: 43% Durant: 50%" A 7% margin is pretty good for someone 10 years older than him. Plus, remember Kobe Bryant is 30 +. If it was 18 years old vs. 28 year old, it'd' be completely different. Please allow me to give you some accurate analysis instead of this inaccurate argument. "3-pt %. Kobe: 30% Durant 39%" Now, I'm even more confused. You first said it was 24% difference in 3-point percentage. Now you're saying there's only a 9% difference. Which is it? Two contradictory statements twice in 1 argument subpoint. Now 9% or 24% isn't that bad for someone 10 years older than you. Please be precise. "FT%. Kobe: 85% Durant: 88%" For someone 10 years older, a 3% margin is nothing for free-throw percentage. I mean we need to see their career stats averaged or both of them in their same year statistics. Those are the arguments I'll be making instead of these absolutely biased and unfair arguments. B. Defensive Ability. You're sincerely kidding me, right? Kobe Bryant was the on the NBA All-Defensive First Team for 9 years and on the NBA All-Defensive Second Team for 3 years. Kobe Bryant definitely doesn't lack the defensive ability. You're calling Kobe Bryant "pathetic" because he has 0.3 blocks when he's not even a forward or center. Centers and forwards tend to have longer arms which helps them block shots. I will agree that it's horrible but you're comparing a guard with 10 more years of age to a forward with 10 years younger. I mean at least compare it fairly instead of being super-biased and super-unfair in judging. Also 0.1 steal is very little. Especially since you're comparing someone who is older by 10 years at retirement age to someone who's younger by 10 years and extremely athletic. "The 10 years older" may have not gotten to you yet and the "forwards are much better at rebounding" may have been misunderstood by you but that's why Kevin Durant has 3.1 more rebounds than the Black Mamba. RPG. Kobe: 5 Durant 8 Now it's another contradiction. First you state 7.4 rebounds compared to 4.3 rebounds. Is it 3 or 3.1. Either way, it's inaccurate because it measures the current stats not the overall stats. II. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Post-Season. Due to the lack of space, I will be stating that all of these statistics are inaccurate for this debate. If I was arguing Kobe Bryant is currently a better player than Kevin Durant, I would have to accept those but since it's about "overall", I'll be talking about overall statistics in playoffs instead of these unfair ones. I would also like to point out that we're not comparing team statistics which means they're irrelevant including the playoff series. I will state every statistic will be disregarded due to it being about current statistics which are extremely unfair though Kobe Bryant's statistics are actually impressive in the post-season currently for someone 10 years on Kevin Durant. III. Clutch Performances. I'm glad he made clutch shots but so did Kobe Bryant. You can't have a way of comparing clutch performances. I'm glad he has accomplishments but so does Kobe Bryant with a lot more. Now it's on to my case. I. Accurate Analysis. These are career statistics so that it is accurate. I would use yearly but I have so few characters right now. Disclaimer: Too close to calls don't count as anything except a tie. I. Regular Season: Points: KB: 25.4 KD: 26.3 A 0.9 difference is not even a full point. Thus, I call it a tie because it is not even a full point of difference. FG %: KB: 0.453 KD: 0.468 This is 0.015% increase. I mean if it were at least 0.50% increase, I would state it but a 0.15% increase is much too little to be a win. Too close to call for me. 3P%: KB: 0.337 KD: 0.364 Again, a 0.027% increase is way too little for it to be a KD call. Too close to call. FT%: KB: 0.838 KD: 0.878 0.040% is too little to call. RPG: KB: 5.3 KD: 6.6 KD takes rebounds down with 1.3 points. APG: KB: 4.7 KD: 2.8 Kobe takes down assists with 1.9 points. Right now, it's a tie. SPG: KB: 1.5 KD: 1.2 That's a win for Kobe Bryant. (For blocks and steals, there are no too close to calls so whoever wins will win.) BPG: KB: 0.5 KD: 1.0 Well, it's Kevin Durant's victory. Well, it looks like it's a tie. Now, it's playoff time. II: Playoffs: PPG: KB: 25.6 KD: 27.4 I'll hand this one to KD. FG%: KB: 0.448 KD: 0.440 Too close to call. 3P%: KB: 0.331 KD: 0.337 That's so close to call. FT%: KB:0.816 KD:0.845 A 0.019 is way to close to call. RPG: KB: 5.1 KD: 8.1 A full 3 point increase is good. KD with two in the lead. APG: KB: 4.7 KD: 2.9 KB shrinks the deficit. SPG: KB: 1.4 KD: 1.0 KB wins! BPG: KB: 0.6 KD: 1.2 Well, it seems KB loses to KD by 1 point, right? Wrong! It's important to count the all-star moments. III: All-Star: PPG: KB: 20.8 KD: 28.3 KD's winning by two. FG% & 3P% & FT% & RPG: KB:0.509 & 0.350 & 0.824 & 5.0 KD:0.516 & 0.364 & 0.867 & 5.0 Too close to call for all 4. APG & SPG: KB: 4.2 & 4.7 KD: 1.7 (for both) KB wins both. Well, it's a tie! I've proved KD is at least not better than KB! Vote Con. Sources in the comments section. |
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Pro "He’s got all the ability in the world and he keeps getting better." --Rick Adelman
"The guy is pretty amazing, that he's able to handle himself at such a young age.” -Scott Brooks
I thank my opponent for his rebuttals and counter-argument.
Clarification:
My opponent essentially dropped every single one of my arguments under the flawed reasoning that Kobe Bryant's 11 more years of experience makes him exempt from a fair comparison. The resolution is explicitly clear: Kevin Durant IS a better overall basketball player than Kobe Bryant. If my opponent wants to argue who was a better player 7 years ago or who has had the more accomplished career, his entire argument will be a straw man.
Dropped Arguments*:
Regular Season: 1. FG% 2. 3-PT % 3. FT% 4. Patient shooter 5. Steals 6. Blocks 7. Rebounds
Post-Season: 8. PPG 9. FG% 10. FT% 11. 3-PT % 12. Volume shooting
13. 2012 Scoring Champion
*I am counting every "He's 10 years older" defense as a concession.
Defenses:
I. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Regular Season.
"I mean it would be like comparing Steve Nash currently (38) to LeBron James (27). How is that even close to fair?" If you do not disagree with the resolution, why did you accept the debate?
"I'm stating that we should compare Kevin Durant's current year to Kobe Bryant's fifth year." This is a completely different resolution. And even if we did, Durant's stats are still better.
"I can't believe you actually think four shots more makes Kobe Bryant a "selfish shooter"." He takes 13% MORE shots than Kevin Durant. He makes them at 6% less accuracy (9% for 3-pters), and he scored fewer points. He is very selfish compared to Durant.
"First, you state Kevin Durant scored 28 points on average in the season." Disregard the 30. Durant led the league in scoring at 28 PPG.
"You first said it was 24% difference in 3-point percentage. Now you're saying there's only a 9% difference." 39% is 24% more than 30%, 9% more if we are subtracting the two.
"Kobe Bryant was the on the NBA All-Defensive First Team for 9 years and on the NBA All-Defensive Second Team for 3 years. Kobe Bryant definitely doesn't lack the defensive ability." I'm not saying he does. I'm saying Durant has more defensive ability.
"You're calling Kobe Bryant "pathetic" because he has 0.3 blocks when he's not even a forward or center. " Neither is Durant. Your "unfair" claim fails.
"First you state 7.4 rebounds compared to 4.3 rebounds. Is it 3 or 3.1." No. I was discussing DEFENSIVE rebounds earlier. Total rebounds are obviously higher as they take offensive stats into account.
II. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Post-Season.
Con concedes this entire section with the "10 year" argument.
III. Clutch Performances.
"I'm glad he made clutch shots but so did Kobe Bryant. You can't have a way of comparing clutch performances." Well, considering you have failed to show Kobe's clutch performances this season (which I'm sure exist), my point stands.
My Opponent's Arguments
Here, my opponent lists career stats, which are only tangentially relevant. When Kevin Durant beats KB, he claims it's "too close to call." I'll even ignore the ridicluous double standard of his argument.
Remember, these statistics are averages of hundreds of games, tens of thousands of shots. They are accurate (almost irrelevant, but accurate).
Because I have 6 minutes left to write my argument, I'll tally up the victories using HIS STATS.
I. Regular Season:
Points: KB: 25.4 KD: 26.3
FG %: KB: 0.453 KD: 0.468
3P%: KB: 0.337 KD: 0.364
FT%: KB: 0.838 KD: 0.878
RPG: KB: 5.3 KD: 6.6
APG: KB: 4.7 KD: 2.8
SPG: KB: 1.5 KD: 1.2
BPG: KB: 0.5 KD: 1.0
KEVIN: 6 KOBE: 2
II: Playoffs:
PPG: KB: 25.6 KD: 27.4
FG%: KB: 0.448 KD: 0.440
3P%: KB: 0.331 KD: 0.337
FT%: KB:0.816 KD:0.845
RPG: KB: 5.1 KD: 8.1
APG: KB: 4.7 KD: 2.9
SPG: KB: 1.4 KD: 1.0
BPG: KB: 0.6 KD: 1.2
KEVIN: 5 KOBE: 3
Even using Con's flawed stats, KD wins.
__________________ Some quotes from Viper's Round 2
"Kevin Durant is entering his prime while Kobe Bryant is barely making it through games." "I agree that Kevin Durant has been a much better player this season than Kobe Bryant" [On Bryant's blocking ability] "I will agree that it's horrible" "Kobe Bryant is at retirement age while Kevin Durant is at his prime."
___________________ Extend Sources from Round 2.
Con My opponent states I can't state who has more accomplishments based on Kobe Bryant having 11 years more than Kevin Durant. If that is true, then why are we comparing Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant currently when Kobe Bryant is older than Kevin Durant by 11 years. The resolution states that Kevin Durant is overall a better player than Kobe Bryant. If the resolution stated: "Kevin Durant is a better overall player than Kobe Bryant currently" or "Kevin Durant is better than Kobe Bryant currently", than it would be a different story. We need accurate comparisons of them both which is why career averages are the best. I definitely am not arguing who was a better player 7 years ago or who accomplished more, I am arguing who is the better player career-wise. None of the "concessions" you state are concessions are concessions. All of them are bested by Kevin Durant because your comparison is inaccurate. You are measuring all of them today which is unfair since Kobe Bryant is at retirement age and Kevin Durant is at his prime. All 13 "concessions" are not concessions because you are measuring Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant currently which is a bad comparison. The best comparison is when you match up careers which is what I did. Thus, none of these so-called concessions are accurate comparisons and are actually very bad comparisons. Defenses: I. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Regular Season. "If you do not disagree with the resolution, why did you accept the debate?" I don't disagree with the resolution, I agree with it. The resolution is about who is better overall. Overall means not just currently but career-wise. It's insanity. "This is a completely different resolution. And even if we did, Durant's stats are still better." This is an example of what a fair comparison would be instead of career. It's not a complete different resolution. And also, what sources do you state that Kevin Durant is better than Kobe Bryant in his 5th year? "He takes 13% MORE shots than Kevin Durant. He makes them at 6% less accuracy (9% for 3-pters), and he scored fewer points. He is very selfish compared to Durant." Seriously? Four more shots = 13% more shots? Where do you get this statistic? Either way, four shots more is not a lot. Plus 6% or 9% inaccuracy is pretty good for someone at retirement age compared to someone at his prime. Well, he's older and that means he may take "4 shots more" but that does not mean he's selfish. "Disregard the 30. Durant led the league in scoring at 28 PPG." Exactly! 0.1% more than Kobe Bryant. That's barely anything. "39% is 24% more than 30%, 9% more if we are subtracting the two." What? How is it 24% more? 39% is 9% more than 30% not 24% more. I'm very confused on why 9% is that much of an issue, especially when it is an inaccurate comparison. "I'm not saying he does. I'm saying Durant has more defensive ability." LOL. You just said "Often, when a player is good offensively, they lack the defensive ability on the other end of the court. This is the case with Kobe Bryant, but not with Durant." Now you're saying he doesn't lack the defensive ability. And how does Kevin Durant have more defensive ability. "Neither is Durant. Your "unfair" claim fails." LOL!! Kevin Durant's main position is Power Forward, what in the world are you talking about? My opponent doesn't even know his own player's main position! "No. I was discussing DEFENSIVE rebounds earlier. Total rebounds are obviously higher as they take offensive stats into account." Would you care to be clear instead of controversial? II. On Balance Comparison of 2012 Post-Season. "Con concedes this entire section with the "10 year" argument." Absolutely false. I never conceded anything. I am merely stating that your entire comparison is inaccurate. Why? Many reasons. First, it is that we are supposed to be debating who is the better player overall, not who is the better player currently. You are basing your entire comparison on inaccuracy. I declare that this entire section needs accuracy which is in my arguments. III. Clutch Performances. "Well, considering you have failed to show Kobe's clutch performances this season (which I'm sure exist), my point stands." You can't compare clutch moments. Specifically, you can't compare clutch moments currently. Kobe Bryant at retirement age against Kevin Durant at his prime is bull. All you stated as "clutch performances" were that you listed a couple teams and a couple clutch shots in the playoffs plus some awards he won. You can't compare clutch performances because some of them are harder to hit, others are much easier. Clutch performances can't be calculated. Then you state four awards he won. Do you want to play the accomplishments game? To be fair, I'll only state his accomplishments in his first 5 years. Kevin Durant: NBA Rookie of the Year (2008) 3� NBA All-Star (2010–2012) NBA All Star Game MVP (2012) 3� NBA scoring champion (2010–2012) 3� All-NBA First Team (2010–2012) NBA All-Rookie First Team (2008) 2� H-O-R-S-E Competition winner (2009–2010) 2010 FIBA World Championship MVP Rookie vs. Sophomores MVP (2008) Okay. That looks impressive right? 16 accomplishments in 5 years. Kobe Bryant: 2� NBA Champion (2000, 2001) 3� NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2001) 2� All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001) 1� All-NBA Third Team (1999) 1� NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000) 1� NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001) NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997) NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997) 3x NBA All-Star Starter (1998, 2000-2001) Youngest Slam Dunk Contest Champion (1997) Youngest NBA Starter (1997) Youngest NBA All-Star Starter (1998) Well, how many are these? These are the ones achieved in the exact time constraint Kevin Durant had. Oh! 18! That means Kobe Bryant had two more accomplishments in years than Kevin Durant had. That's the accurate comparison of accomplishments. My Arguments: My opponent claims these statistics are irrelevant. How could you state they are irrelevant when you can't compare two people fairly without the career stats Too close to call means that its too close to call. I didn't do it to "only Kevin Durant", I did it to Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant because it was way too close. Let's look at my statistics. I. Regular Season: Points: KB: 25.4 KD: 26.3 Lol! A 0.9 difference is not even a full point. Thus, I call it a tie because it is not even a full point of difference. If it were 0.1 points more, Kevin Durant would win. 0.1 - 0.9 points is way too little to call for an actual non-tie. FG %: KB: 0.453 KD: 0.468 Again, 0.015% is nothing. At least, a 0.5% percentage would make it. I mean 0.15% is nothing. Definitely a tie. 3P%: KB: 0.337 KD: 0.364 Again, a 0.027% increase is way too little for it to be called a non-tie. Thus, it is too close to call. FT%: KB: 0.838 KD: 0.878 Again, a 0.040% is way too little to be called a non-tie. RPG: KB: 5.3 KD: 6.6 Okay. Kevin Durant has 1 win. APG: KB: 4.7 KD: 2.8 Kobe Bryant has 1 win. SPG: KB: 1.5 KD: 1.2 Blocks and steals are so little so they are a win even if it is by 0.1. Kobe Bryant wins. BPG: KB: 0.5 KD: 1.0 Kevin Durant wins. KEVIN: 6 KOBE: 2 No. Four of Kevin Durant's "victories" were too little to win by. It's a tie. II: Playoffs: PPG: KB: 25.6 KD: 27.4 I'll give this one to Kevin Durant. FG%: KB: 0.448 KD: 0.440 Still a tie. 0.008 is way too little for a victory. 3P%: KB: 0.331 KD: 0.337 0.006% is way too little. FT%: KB:0.816 KD:0.845 This is still to little for a "victory". RPG: KB: 5.1 KD: 8.1 Kevin Durant wins this one. APG: KB: 4.7 KD: 2.9 Kobe Bryant wins this one. SPG: KB: 1.4 KD: 1.0 Kobe Bryant wins this one BPG: KB: 0.6 KD: 1.2 Kevin Durant wins this one. KEVIN: 5 KOBE: 4 Okay. My opponent fails to have any rebuttal for my All-Star argument which completes that Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant have the same amount of wins which means I win! Sources are in the Comments! |
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| Apollo.11 | Viper-King | Tied | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Agreed with before the debate: | - | - |  | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | - | - | | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | | - | - | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | | - | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 4 | 0 |
| Apollo.11 | Viper-King | Tied | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Agreed with before the debate: | - | - | | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | - | | - | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | - | - | | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | - | | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 0 | 3 |
PPG Kobe 31.6 PPG Durant 28 ppg
APG Kobe 5.3 Durant 3.5
RPG 5.7 8
FG% 46% 49%
PER 27.5 26.26
Steals 1.4 1.3
See? Compare kobe's prime and durant's prime (now)
kobe won in almost every category. defensively? kobe has 9 all nba defensive team
durant is a pure scorer, kobe has a more complete game. you guys are comparing a prime durant against a 33 year old kobe. if you wanted to compare these two, you should look at stats when they are both in their prime. that is what im talking about!
When you look overall at the statistics, you see that PRO has the advantage of the statistics career wise. When CON entered new arguments in the last round, most on DDO would agree that removes conduct. Therefore, PRO wins.
Umm...yes he did. Bynum and Gasol are incredible. Sessions as PG has worked out beautifully for them. Even Artest steps up a lot.
OKC has what? Westbrook. That's it. Ibaka, Perkins, and Harden are finishers (rebounds excluded). And OKC without Durant has one good PG and some other good players (i.e. the former NJ Nets). Harden alone can't pick up all the slack. Although Kobe would likely be more of a loss.
Of all my debates, this one gets put on the home page. Lol.
Also the spacing got screwed up somehow.
Anyway, still refuted all the arguments and defended my own.
http://www.nba.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...