Kingdom Hearts 1 is better than Kingdom Hearts 2
Debate Rounds (4)
In the first game THEY ACTUALLY HAD A REASON FOR DISNEY because Kingdom hearts could be opened by the six princesses of heart tying Sora's search for Riku & Kairi with Disney worlds for an ultimate unique experience. Also the camera was closer to Sora making it more like you were him, and taking away his peripheral vision which made sure you did more exploring in the more in depth worlds.
It just seems to me that Kingdom Hearts 2 had a lot of unnecessary things added to it like the new storyline which just made things bogus and confusing which is taking away what made Kingdom Hearts 1 so great. They added the Drive feature which allows you to wield two Keyblades of your choice at once for a determined period of time. Which is awesome at first but after you realize that it makes the game a little too easy considering how there is added reaction commands, and team moves called limits. The new Sora (with an almost top down camera angle) moves much faster throughout the worlds and there is barley any exploring to be done. The boss fights in KH2 were simple, boring and repetitive and made it less climatic to fight them because of the fact that you could finish the world in twenty minutes if that.
Not saying that Kingdom Hearts 2 was awful because it is one of my favorite games, but it will never come close to the first.
Throughout history whether it be with movies or games or even books, one of the tried and true formulas that always equals a better sequel than the original is if it has most everything the original had and more of it. In the blues brothers there are police car chases with lots of wrecks and lots of famous guest singers and people loved it. in the sequel they have even more police cars wreck, more famous soul singing guest and more blues brothers and more mafia's. In Home Alone's sequel it had more traps in a bigger house and more in general of everything else people liked about the first making it a success.
With Kingdom Hearts 2, it follows the same pattern to outdo its first, It still has heartless and maleficent as a head villain, its still has keyholes and you still have the key-blade and you still have Disney sidekicks. But there is more in near all those categories. you have more villains (nobodies) more Disney worlds in more of a variety of kinds you could visit (KH2 even had a live action film for a world, Pirates of the Caribbean, to say nothing of turning into an animal for Pride Rock). You have more key-blades and more key-blade wielders (Roxas, Riku, Mickey, and even Kiri gets a key-blade briefly in a movie scene).
And many of the worst aspects of Kingdom Hearts one were fixed. For example the Gummiship building option. maybe its layout worked for a few people who had the patients to use it but for many like me its too much a hassle for two little a reward. why waist munny on making a bigger gummie ship when its just transportation? In the second one the blueprint system works much better and your more likely to make better upgraded gummie ships, Falcon to Falcon level 2 ship. and the pointlessness of purchasing gummie parts is fixed since the reward system for improving your ship is put inside the use of the ship. It gives a reason to actually re-travel through the gummie ship level just to complete it for the better reward on higher difficulties. So they are more bosses to fight in the game this way in these gummie levels. The lanes between travel paths also had more interesting designs in the KH2. in the first one it would be as lame as a collage of hoops and a few giant colored blocks. in the KH2 you have planets of scenery sometimes, amazing asteroid belts, ghost vortexes, and you can even battle some of the enemies from a side view option from your ship in this second game.
From this point on I respond to my opponents case.
Pro is right about there being a loss of the Dalmatian hunting or trinities to find. The first is not such a sad thing to lose. the rewards for finding Dalmatians where not very good and they simply amounted to being more complected chest. I'd prefer opening a chest and finding a potion rather than opening five with Dalmatians and taking them back to traverse town to get a potion. Whats worse all lot of what you got out of the Dalmatian hunting was worthless gummie blocks.
The trinities is also just a more complected treasure finding system, which is okay if the reward system matches its complexity. For the trinities you don't really find rewards worth finding until you get the last trinity available, the white one.
as for the rest of the 'bonus nuggets' my opponent mentioned, Pro is wrong on all of them. there are still extra hidden bosses like Sephiroth (who if you beat you get what is arguably the best key-blade) and the Coliseum tournaments only got way better. They have new array of nobodies villains that can now be in the roster and you still get the to fight awesome contenders like Hades, Hercules, Cloud and Leon at the same time, ect... Plus there's the inclusion of the Pandora's cup wich on any mode of game play is very challenging and gives a powerful key-blade that makes it worth trying to beat.
The Collision world is a example of How KH2 is better all together. what was in the first game a world with three rooms now extends to the depths of Hades to explore.
Pro says the inclusion of Disney stuff no longer makes sense in the second game without a current importance on the Princesses of Heart, So Sora as no need to look in Disney worlds. What pro forgets is if that's why Sora visiting the Disney worlds before made sense then before it made no sense either. Sora never searched for princesses of heart, he was searching for kiri and riku and donald & goofy were searching for their king. This is the same thing driving there search in the second game.
If by bogus and confusing my opponent is suffering to the nobodies, they are no more confusing than the heartless that had the spotlight in the first game. They are creatures called heartless even though they have hearts and nothing else. darkness that consumed a heart and stole it from the body. yet some heartless like Ansem look just like there body while Sora turns into the weakest kind of heartless and Riku got a whole dark outfit.
The inclusion of noboidies on completes the idea with the question we were all asking in the first game, "if he's heart is taken by the heartless then what happen to his body?"
The story is still just as good for fundamentally its still the same story of Darkness Vs Light that the first one was about witch has always been the Reason for Disney as there classics films show this battle often in its simplest of forms that we love.
I find it odd my opponent has a problem with the Reaction commands, drive forms, and team limits. These fix some of the problems with the first game. in KH1 its easy to even forget Donald and Goofy are there. with the way battle goes different from a normal Final Fantasy Game (you control all of your party personally) Donald and Goofy are often out of sight as your finishing off a heartless. there presence is almost pointless (battle wise) and when you replace one with Aladdin or Tarzan there performance is just unhelpful. But with the team limit you can actually get a visually awesome move that gives purpose to there battle presence. In the newer KH games like birth by sleep this is further reduced to just a D-link and you battle most of the time on your own.
The reaction commands also adds to the visually entertaining game experience. In other final fantasy games some of our favorite moves to use like Omnislash (FF7) do some spectacular and stunning graphics to watch. this is Square Enxs thing there best at. So of course there best talents should be used in KH as well. But in the different battle stlye (you dont take turns) The full advantages of KH's moves like Ars Arcum don't shine as well. The Reaction Command take this to a whole new level. Sora can have battle moves that he would only use on a three headed dog with teeth cause that's what the creative style is tailored for. In the first game the limit of what you could do to that dog was try and hop up and whack your key-blade on one of its heads, witch looks lame. but your key-blade being stuck between its teeth, that's cool (video 2:27)
The Reason Pro gave for why all this improvement in battle awesomeness is bad is cause 'it makes the game easy' well take it off of beginner mode next time and set it to the hardest levels at the intro of the game.
The worlds may seem shorter to explore but this just because your not done in one visit. there's more story to go through in his game and the extra half of exploration is saved for the return visit. Visit number one your fighting heartless and going through what is for the most part the plot the Pirates of the Caribbean 1, visit two the nobodies are here and you have to figure out why jack is a skeleton again, something unique not from the movie but made for this game.
Next round Pro, please explain how the KH2 story is bogus and defend.
The first game is the one that doesn't hold a candle to the second.
jamie8sora forfeited this round.
I will give him the benefit of the doubt and not post any new arguments this round. just extending what I already gave.
Although I would appreciate it if my opponent could communicate in the comment section somewhere what the problem was, so that I know he is still active on this sight enough to finish at least one more round of this debate.
"With Kingdom Hearts 2, it follows the same pattern to outdo its first, It still has heartless and maleficent as a head villain", I disagree strongly. She is barley even a character and is only in the end whom actually, in her own way, helps Sora with the ridiculous amount of Nobodies.
I do agree that the Pride Lands and Port Royal were interesting but I don't understand how the game makers had worlds that were already in the first game. There are so many other interesting Disney worlds that could have made KH2 more exciting. With that, it added even more things to the game that made it unoriginal. With the reaction commands I felt like I was playing an easy version of God of War (because all you have to do it button mash triangle and even a tough boss with half health will get close to dieing), and they made Atlantic really stupid by taking away the unique underwater scenarios and made it a gay version of Guitar Hero. The spells in the second game were absolutely pointless and useless were you never had to use them (besides curaga). The Limits get repetitive and make the game feel more like Final Fantasy instead of Kingdom Hearts 1.
They did make the Gummi ship battling and building better, but they copied Raiden a bit with the fighting. It is better besides that it is unorigional. Which is what made Kingdom Hearts 1 so great: BEING UNIQUE.
Maybe your preference is to go through with no exploring but for me I actually like to go back and search for items, Trinities, postcards, and dalmatians. Kingdom Hearts 2 is so self-explanatory where you know exactly where to go at all times (Plus the fact that there is a map and if you happen to head into the wrong doorway it will say something like "I need to head towards wherever").
Yes Sephiroth is a bonus boss (THE ONLY BONUS BOSS), but KH1 had him, the ice titan, Kurt Zisa, and the Phantom. The boss fights in KH1 were more intense and diverse making the game more suspenseful and unpredictable. Like how you have to use strategy with spells and dodging. KH2's boss fights were all the same (just using your overpowered drive form, limits and cheap rapid attack moves (with a top down view so there is no chance of getting sneak attacked), doing a certain amount of damage until you button mash triangle to finish off your opponent.
The Coliseum tournaments made the first game interesting and even fitted a small storyline before the tournaments began themselves which added structure and depth into the game. You needed to use your lock-on a lot more rather then just hacking away and obliterating everything. As the game would go on you would progressively get stronger keyblades which would help you in the next world. In KH2 they would give you a keyblade that would be stronger than the other ones that you keep receiving further down the road which just made the vast majority of keyblades useless (like I said before, Kingdom hearts 2 has a lot of random useless filler crap).
The Syntheses list is so easy its ridiculous. The game presents almost no challenge at all (unlike the first) besides filling out Jiminy's Journal which was so frustrating and time consuming.
The end of the world in Kingdom hearts one was far more in depth than the world that never was. Every world in Kingdom Hearts one was made with much more originality which took the Disney worlds and made it their own. They made Hollow Bastion garbage as well in the second game by taking away the unorthodox rising falls and the lift stops. Also going back to the world again was filler to make the game length similar to the first (it was also really pointless). With glide, aerial dodge, and high jump its not like you did any exploring anyways. All you would do in the worlds bis the lame easy fighting.
I didn't forget anything like you claim. Kingdom Hearts 2 really wanted to take the first game and make it their own storyline which didn't even need Disney because the Disney villains had nothing to do with the organization (filler crap to please the fans). I never said that he searched for the princesses of heart, it just made everything with Ansem (Xemnas), the gang of evil Disney villains, the final fantasy, and Sora, Riku and Kairi's story blend together.
The nobodies were completely unnecessary and just tried to make the game seem more mature with being with the complex alternate universe with nonexistent beings. When someone turns into a heartless an empty shell is leftover (nobodies) which makes absolutely no sense because where the hell were they in the first game if that is true.
"They are creatures called heartless even though they have hearts and nothing else. darkness that consumed a heart and stole it from the body." Everyone has light and dark inside of them, but If someone lets it consume them, then a heartless is formed. Then the physical beings "heartless" go around consuming the hearts of living beings which in turn makes even more heartless, which all crave to devour every last heart including the heart of worlds (which can be locked by Sora's keyblade to keep the worlds safe and intact). That is where "Kingdom Hearts" comes in because it is the heart of all worlds; the ultimate power source.
I know when my party members are with me because they do help a lot, like Donald's healing and Goofy's MP gift ability that restores Sora's MP when it runs out (because you actually need it unlike KH2 with the useless spells). The keyblade is the ultimate weapon against the heartless which makes sense because Sora should be stronger than his teammates according to the story. The only teammate whom is stronger than you is beast because of that Sora needs him in his most dire time (not to mention he doesn't have the keyblade for a short period) of the story.
By the way I beat the game on Proud mode (KH2) and Expert mode (KH1) and Expert mode was without a doubt significantly more challenging.
The first game holds a freaking bon fire to the second if you want to metaphorically have a "large size of fire" fight.
It seems about half of Pro's arguments are against the story or plot, and the other half gaming style and options. First I will respond to the story arguments.
She is still a key character in the story, despite Pro's claims. She is plot devise for explaining why the heartless are still an organized threat for the game even though Sora took out Ansem and all the league of Disney villains last game. Plus the new inclusion of Pete made her necessary also. Pete was a smart add in that I'm actually suprised was not a villain in the first game. Pete is the recurring bad-guy in mickey cartoons so it should make since that in Disney cross-overs he should play an important villain role. however the Pete we all love from the cartoons is loved as a bumbling villain, so Maleficent needed to fill the evil dominatrix role to guide Pete's as a general of heartless in the story.
The case was made that she even helps Sora at the end and its implied that that's dumb or bad somehow. It is not. The ironic twist of two advisories fighting a common foe is a great add in. some of the greatest stories in history do this to show the new threat all the more fearsome. from older villains you get the use to there attempts to make the black seem gray that you might lose the stark contrast of light from darkness in the good vs evil battle in a story. But no matter how dark or gray you see that villain if even they stoop to fighting with the people on the side of light it makes the common foes darkness stand out all the more.
Also, its the timeless mark of a great hero if they make hero's out of former villains. Like Piccolo and Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z http://en.wikipedia.org... http://en.wikipedia.org... Now Maleficent may have not been completely redeemed in this game, her actions at the end of the game is enough to foreshadow hope that someday in the future the heartless will truly be defeated despite Yen Sids bleak explanation of the situation. He made it clear if darkness is in any heart there will always be heartless. Now that sounds impossible to get rid of completely in all one day, but if even Maleficent can do something kind of good then it makes you think maybe one day it can happen.
Pro says that there not connected to the Disney in any way so it does not tie together very well. The Organization doesn't have to though. there connected with the plot already established and even better explain it some from the first game in the Ansem letters. From reading the letters you would think even Mickey thought Ansem a good guy and Ansem a sensible leader enough to not keep up the making of the heartless. the tone of the Ansem Reports is not of a 'student of darkness' So the Organization is a welcomed inclusion to KH2 to explain the whole history behind that.
It still needed Disney though, as your still looking for mickey mouse, and I cannot put emphasis on this next point enough THE FIRST GAME ESTABLISHED IT AS A DISNEY CROSSOVER UNIVERSE. if Sora is to travel worlds at all, you need Disney. it would be confusing and stupid to fill the game with only traversa towns and twilight town in the second game when we have already seen from the first game the universe has Disney worlds in it. It would be stupid to exclude Disney from the game as the first game still left us off with two MAJOR DISNEY CHARACTERS Donald and Goofy traveling with Sora looking for Mickey and Riku.
Pro say's the Disney princesses were what made 'it all blend together'. It did not, all that Ansem needed was seven hearts of pure light, and we make the corny choice of the princesses cause only from Disney can you get this? No you can get pure hearts of light from anywhere else, even making up princesses just for the game like Kiri. That would even make more sense so you can make each princess show ‘pure light' in there own flavor. With Disney princess if you have seen one you have seen them all, Aurora and Cinderella and Snow white are not that different.
Where were the nobodies?:
in game 1 not on the same planet as Sora, there's no problem. you expect there to be few anyway considering the conditions needed to make a heartless and the conditions needed to make a nobody.
none of what you put makes them any less confusing than the nobodies, like how could they be drawn to 'the heart of all worlds which cant physically exist? if it does then what world is it on? if its the total union of all hearts everywhere then it cant be anywhere in particular. Same confusion for the 'end of worlds', where could that be in an infinite universe?
Sephiroth is not the only optional boss (see video) and you assessment as unpredictable of the hidden bosses in game one is not true. theirs nothing unpredictable about something you only know of from a guide book. your not going to accidentally stumble upon such bosses when to face them you have to do things like cast special magic on clock towers on certain times.
Also there nothing wrong with the revisited world especially when many of the world had sequel films that story could be taken from and that between the two games you've used up near all the usable Disney films for worlds. can you imagine trying to make a dumbo world? what would sora fight the pink elephants and why would he be drunk to see them in the first place?
Alantis is a mini-game world like the Hundred acre woods, its cool in its own right for that and with all the other worlds the game had enough battle worlds.
its actually not that more useful or less useful in either game. you can go through the first game without using it much at all in battle, the only villains particularly affected by it are the blue and red mage heartless and by the time you get advanced magic like demi or stopga its almost over. not to mention they don't work on bosses. the only real use of magic in the first game is the Zelda ripoff puzzles that need certain magic to pass through. there just there as stupid excuses to keep you from exploring that part of the world until more story passes.
its actually not that unique in its crash bandicoot gauntlet style play. But even it was unique uniqueness that sucks still sucks and its change was a different improvement.
the Synthesis being easy is false. I've played through and beat both games and yet I still haven't made the ultimate weapon in the last one, it takes random luck to acquire all the right gems and stuff from the heartless and nobodies you need them from.
the do become progressively better in the second game, some stats may drop with the next one but some set of stats always improves.
I think that was everything if I missed anything I will try and get it in the last round.
In general, the first game had a feeling to it what made it a classic; like the feeling you get on Christmas Morning. The second one I agree does have more to offer with the fighting but it will never match the first one with how the dialogue, the emotional music and the unique gaming style combined together to make a beautiful gaming experience. In the second there is a slight bit of that feeling near the end of the game, but it doesn't give full blast of the feeling like the first. Its like comparing "Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" to "Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess", twilight princess had better graphics and took a longer time to beat, but Ocarina had a better story and it is a classic.
Your case about Dumbo was a very lame attempt at a comeback. Here are some Disney worlds (that I should have stated before to avoid this topic) that could have made kingdom hearts 2 more interesting: Toy Story, Robin hood, the black cauldron, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Pocahontas, Dinosaurs, Atlantis, The emperors new groove, Lilo and Stitch, Treasure planet, snow white and the seven dwarfs, sleeping beauty, The sword and the stone, the jungle book, the rescuers, a bugs life, the incredibles, monsters inc... the list goes on and on. I disagree that it would be stupid to drop Disney altogether with the second games' storyline. They could have just as easily made up other worlds like twilight town and traverse town just like they did with the organization.
You still can't deny that there is a lot of random filler crap in the second game.
I know I can't convince you to like the 1st better because the second one is new (maybe because you played the old one too much and a new adventure seems glorious) or it just might be your preference but Kingdom Hearts 1 is still the best game to ever be released to the gaming world.
Pro mentioned dialogue, music, and style being better in the first game. The dialogue stayed relatively the same except it would go deeper than the first game did with Darkness and Light references, all the music of the first game is still playing in the second, with the addition of a new song in the intro that isn't that different from the first game . And the gaming style may be tweaked to be more user friendly but its not different enough to where you could justifiably overall call it different.
As for my Dumbo 'comeback', given that I was running out of space I think I what was needed to be said was conveyed in that reference. After you eliminate all the Disney classics already in the game you are left with all the fluffy animal films like Dumbo or Bambie, the rescuers, and jungle book and robin hood are borderline to that category. They bring Sora in a sequel game to the princesses worlds that you mentioned as time-line wise they would not be able to borrow from the story of the movies since you saw them all at Hallow bastion and its relatively clear there classic stories have already unfolded. You could use those world in a prequel game (and square enix did) but not a sequel with Sora wielding the keyblade. And if you are half the fan you claim to be of these games then you probably know about the legal rights issue preventing square enxi from using anything Pixar which makes up about half of your list http://www.kingdomhearts3.net.... How on earth would they do Dinosaurs? Its one thing to make a cub lion hold a keyblade and not look stupid but a dinosaur, presumably fighting other dinosaurs? I'm glad the KH makers did not even try to make such a thing cool enough to be game worthy. Had they done Pocahontas who would the heartless be themed after, the Indians or the settlers? Whoever you choose will make them look like the bad guys witch is would not do that world justice. The Hunchback has the same problem as the villain in that film is a Catholic Priest. The bulk of the sword and the stone story go through the various strange transformations of Arther into animals for him to try an learn something and trying to interject Sora into it somewhere would also be rather difficult to do tastefully, Treasure Planet involves space travel within its own world and that would bring up unwanted questions about what they know about the other world Sora has been visiting. Emperors New Grooves story has the difficulty of interjecting Sora into it as well (Sora existing would remove the plot points that makes Cusco team up with Pacha), many Disney fans find Lilo and Stich to be an embarrassment on Disney parts but it seems the KH makers resorted to using it in the prequel game. Atlantis would make weird questions when there is already a Disney World of Atlantis (aerials). As for the Black Cauldron; I could win nearly any game of Disney Scene It cause I've seen almost everything Disney there is and I don't even remember the Black Cauldron. Had they used it that would have been a cool little known Disney film to make a wold from to fill up just one world on the map but they did include some surprising worlds like that in KH2 that made for some fantastic villains and even and interesting overall importance to Radiant Garden, Tron.
Anyway since you needed more reason as to why the worlds they choose where wise choices, that is why.
they could not have filled the world with Twilight and Traversa's, It may be your subjective opinion that the game would have been better without Disney worlds, but a game full of Twilight towns would suck. The other world sora explores needs to genuinely look different than the other worlds out there, and Twilight Town and Destiny Island honestly aren't that different looking. This story that's founded in exploring the ‘many different worlds out there' needs being on one world to feel and look different than another, electron data in space paranoids and black and white cartoon in Timeless River to whatever it is you consider Halloween town. The blend is the same in KH2 even without reusing the princess of heart plot.
Yes, in fact I can deny there is a lot of random filler crap. You get the impression there's ‘a lot' of random stuff to just fill the game because you write off all Disney worlds as random and for some reason crap. Crap is subjective and I think I've argued enough as to why its not random.
In conclusion the resolution still has not been affirmed by Pro, and how could it be, near everything you could argue about as we have is based on the individuals subjective taste. I have tried to give focus in my arguments towards the story criticisms as that can in some ways be looked at objectively and less to gaming style like camera angles as I have idea how my opponent could view the second arrangement as bad even though he explained it, the changes mentioned do not strike me as bad. User friendly controls and game play are all pro's in my book, If my opponent needs controls that are hard to work with he should invest in an old Nintendo product like the N64. Playing a game should be about the experience of playing the game, not pushing the buttons (which is why mortal combat sucks)
I do not believe there is any way in any combination Square Enix could have made a second game and pleased my opponent with it. He wanted out of it the same story, with the exact same controls without tweaking it any way learning from the weaknesses of the old style, and the same songs But they did not even try to make that game, because they know most of the world plays a sequel game or reads a sequel book or watches a sequel movie to go through the next chapter, not a total rehashed version of the old. My opponent may have said he didn't like the second game as much because it wasn't unique, but it seems clear his real problem is that it wasn't the same.
PS: (FF7 is the greatest game in gaming history, Kingdom Hearts is only the greatest game series in gaming history.)
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