The Instigator
ViceRegent
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Derf123
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

King's Jesus command that man execute sodomites should be obeyed!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/21/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 323 times Debate No: 85364
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

ViceRegent

Pro

FOR CHRISTIANS ONLY!

God is clear in His Word that the only just penalty for sodomy is mandatory execution. If King Jesus commands this, who are we do say anything different.
Derf123

Con

I accepted this debate to end it as quickly as you understand that Jesus never 'commands this'. You're quoting Old Testament scriptures, but not Jesus. Jesus preaches something else, wait until you get to the New Testament! Then I'll debate you on the subject of 'just killing' according to Christian teaching, which holds that it's wrong unless you're about to be killed yourself by the person in question!
Debate Round No. 1
ViceRegent

Pro

Ahhh, Jesus is God and the whole of the Bible is the Word of Jesus. And the Christian teaching is to follow the commands of Jesus. This includes executing sodomites.
Derf123

Con

No you're quoting the Old Testament, pre-Jesus Christ. While Jesus endorses much of the Old Testament, he commands his followers to turn away from a literal understanding of the Old Testament part of the Bible. His spoken word is evident in the New Testament part of the Bible, you see. That's where he says, 'Love God with all your heart, soul and mind' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself. On these 2 commandments depend all the law and the prophets"... So like Jesus said to the Sadducees, 'You know neither the scriptures nor the power of God."
Debate Round No. 2
ViceRegent

Pro

No, Jesus is the eternally-existent God. See John 1:1. There is no pre-Jesus. And you err again when you say Jesus commands His followers to turn from a literal understanding. In Matt 5:17-19 He commands just the opposite. Ironically, when Jesus commands us to love God and love neighbor, He is LITERALLY quoting the OT (See Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18, respectively). You indeed do not know the Scriptures.
Derf123

Con

'No, Jesus is the eternally-existent God. See John 1:1.'

There is no pre-God, but of course there was a time pre-Jesus; from which we get B.C. (Before Christ). Your argument that His life on earth was not constrained by time is silly. No one can deny that he was born and died, these are historical facts. Jesus is God's Son, one part of Himself come down to save mankind from eternal damnation. That's his MISSION, and he fulfils scripture in that sense as well as to refute old ways of thinking about the scriptures.

Again, you miss the point with your next point. Jesus breaks down the rigidity of the laws of the Old Testament and set up a new covenant between God and mankind. These are rules by which men are trying to live their lives and missing the point like you are. By saying, "On these 2 commandments depend all the law and the prophets" he puts the rest to bed in relative terms.
Debate Round No. 3
ViceRegent

Pro

You confuse Jesus' humanity with His divinity. Jesus has always existed as God, including when He commanded man to execute sodomites. This is why James 4 calls Jesus the Lawgiver.

Your ignoring Matt 5:17-19 because it contradicts your thinking is telling. Jesus said follow the OT Law to the letter. I believe Him, yo do not.

Do you have any Scripture to share or I am stuck with your vain theology?
Derf123

Con

Without petty finger-pointing (and I'm done posting arguments after this), you're confused about the whole 'Jesus was man but God at the same time'. I believe He was God, hence I take His Word in the New Testament (the new understanding of God) as the Word of God. The previous understanding of His Word in the Old Testament was wrong, and his mission was to tell people (who largely rejected Him) about the new understanding. Quoting from the Old Testament, therefore, makes you come across about 2000 years behind the rest of the Christian world.

'You're ignoring Matt 5:17-19...' Again you are mistaken because I didn't ignore it, I answered it subtly. No surprise that you missed my meaning again, all too common from PRO . In Matt 5:17-19, He tells us not to abolish the law and the prophets, but says something radical: he has come to FULFIL them. Until His mission has been fully fulfilled and 'all is accomplished', everyone should keep the commandments. He adds later (and how much more explicit can God be): "On these 2 commandments depend all the law and the prophets"... Matt 22:36-40.

His mission is partly (half-way) fulfilled in the resurrection, the rest comes at the end of time, when all humans called to follow Him will be judged according to His Will. So we're almost there (half-way) and people can relax their 'to the letter' Old Testament understandings in favour of the new Covenant between mankind and God. I'm not sure what persuasion of Christian you are, but Christians mainly find their answers to questions of justice in the New Testament.

(Read Matt 22:23-40 for Jesus' rebuttal to Sadducees who question Him about Old Law and understandings)
Debate Round No. 4
ViceRegent

Pro

But you deny Jesus is God when you deny He is the Lawgiver per Scripture and say He did not exist prior to 0 AD.

There is no new understanding of the Law, which is why Jesus said to follow it to the letter. Again, you ignore Matt 5:17-19.

Yes, Jesus came to complete (i.e., fulfill) the Law, which is WHY it is valid and binding until heaven and earth pass.

And the fact that Jesus quotes the OT Law shows you your error, but you are too blind to see it.

It is like con thinks Jesus made a mistake when He commanded man to execute sodomites. He does remind me of the Pharisees in Mark 7:6:13, who Jesus said were hypocrites for claiming to follow God and yet denying His Law, including His Law that commanded man to execute kids who dishonor their parents.
Derf123

Con

The human dimension of God (i.e. Jesus) didn't exist on earth in the flesh before 0 A.D. Here's hoping you can accept this basic fact.

Christians believe that His Laws are given new meaning with His life and mission. His mission, described by Him in the New Testament, wasn't about passive acceptance of His fate but about active criticism of old ways of thinking about the Law. He places emphasis on the interior struggle and individual morality. Christianity is based on forgiveness and compassion.

So contrary to Pro, there is a new understanding of the Law manifest in the life of Jesus Christ. He instituted a new Covenant, membership to which is by faith, not by ancestry. It's contained in the New Testament. Jesus did not come down to tell us obey the old Law 'to the letter'. He taught His followers to follow his way of life while keeping the commandments. Thou shalt not kill.... Again, if love God and love your neighbour is the basis for our understanding of Law, then it follows from the essence of this, and the just conduct of Jesus/God on earth, that it is wrong to execute children for any reason.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Peepette 1 year ago
Peepette
RFD Cont. RFD. Cont. S&G tied, there were no obvious issues on either side. Conduct tied, both conducted themselves in a mutually respectful manner. Neither side utilized citation, tied on Sources.
Posted by Derf123 1 year ago
Derf123
I appreciate your analysis, thanks Peepette!
Posted by ViceRegent 1 year ago
ViceRegent
Nonesense, Con never posted Scripture. And given that I cited Scripture that commands man to execute sodomites, I met my BOP.
Posted by Peepette 1 year ago
Peepette
RFD: Pro contends that sodomites should be executed as stated in the Old Testament. Con rebuts that the NT revises the Old and killing is wrong. The rest of the debate goes off track arguing which version of the bible should be adhered. Both agree on the premise that Jesus (God) is the same throughout the OT and NT. What differs is Con contends Jesus fulfilled the OT covenant bringing a new understanding negating some OT doctrine. Pro stands on the other side that laws given by God should be adhered, not to do so negates Jesus as God. With equal weight, both sides rebut and counter rebut using scripture to make their points but, Pro fails to meet the BoP that sodomites should be executed. The topic is dropped after the second round. Win to Con. S&G, conduct and sources tied.
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