The Instigator
Kleptin
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
66 Points

Kleptin Brand "Pick Your Own Debate"!!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/27/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,091 times Debate No: 5548
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (36)
Votes (13)

 

Kleptin

Pro

This is a special debate in which the one who accepts the challenge will be the one suggesting the topics of debate.

There will be 5 rounds of this debate.

1A: This introductory post

1B: My opponent will suggest 3 topic of debate, of a wide variety of categories. The three topics of debate suggested cannot overlap in terms of topic of discussion, (ie. All three cannot be about Religion, All three cannot be about Politics, 2 cannot be about Music, 2 cannot be about Science), the topics cannot include both sides of a particular argument, and must be broad enough for a layman to be able to adequately debate with limited research (ie. No extraordinarily complicated Physical theorems).

2A: I will respond with my choice of the three, or rule that the choice of the three subjects violates rules stipulated in 1A. If I make that ruling, 3 new topics of debate will be given as a comment and I shall respond with my choice of those 3.

2B: After choosing one topic, my opponent will then pick a position, either PRO or CON.

If my opponent picks PRO, he/she shall use the rest of 2B as his opening post, and FORFEIT 5B by submitting, as his or her response, the phrase "Thank you for this debate" repeatedly until the character limit is satisfied.

If my opponent picks CON, he/she shall choose a position and wait for my opening post in 3A.

The rest of the rounds will be devoted to a typical 3 round debate.
Logical-Master

Con

1) Resolved: Dance Dance Revolution ought not to be included in Middle-School and High-School Physical Education classes for schools that can afford it. - CON

2) In the play "The Tragedy of Macbeth, it was the witches "telling Macbeth that he would be king" that caused him to conspire with his wife and kill the current king so that he would become king; the witches manipulated Macbeth. PRO

3) The villain known as Schneizal vi Brittania in Code Geass was overall a poorly crafted villain ( from a writers perspective) - PRO

NOTE: For the second argument, just in case you're thinking there is any real research to do (assuming you haven't read the book or seen the play), there isn't much. In fact, if needed, I can explain all you'd need to know within a paragraph.
Debate Round No. 1
Kleptin

Pro

I choose the substituted #3, in reference to the ending of Code Geass.

I await my opponent's initial post.
Logical-Master

Con

Engarde Kleptin Sama!

Alright, so in this debate, my goal as "PRO" is to demonstrate that the ending of the anime which is colloquially referred to as Code Geass was poorly contrived from a writer's respective. As a big fan of every part of the series prior to its ending, I recommend that you watch it as its a series which provides a bit of everything ofr its viewers. In addition, I would recommend that only those who may become interested in watching this series not read this debate as I am going to reveal quite a few spoilers. With that said, let us proceed:

>>>>#1. At no point in the series do the writers explain the "code carriers" (beings like C.C and V.V)(which makes the many "two second flashes of their existence" in many episodes pointless), they do not bother to explain the origin of the "code carriers" (such as they were spawned into existence), nor do they bother to explain the origin of the geass. Given how all three of these plot elements were amongst the plot elements most focused on in the series, such an explanation is necessary. On the part of the writers, this was very much lazy.

>>>>#2. The ending was unnecessary, a cop out and was deus ex machina.

Unnecessary: Lelouch wanted to atone for all of his sins. That's all fine dandy, but my question is this: How is uniting the world not a form of atoning his sins? For that matter, what was wrong with the idea of joining with the UFN, even if it meant sacrificing some of Brittania's power? If he were to have done that, then Scnheizal would have been targeted as the enemy of the world and peace would have still have come about in the fashion Lelouch had wanted.

In addition, when approaching the matter of him cleansing his sins, isn't it a bit "sinful" or 'selfish' for Lelouch to have himself killed, hence abandon his one and only sister as well as disregard all responsibility he had for the world that he changed. Indeed as something could very well happen in this world which he merely HOPES shall be peaceful. What if his actions are only going to serve a means of instigating even greater suffering than the world had already endured? Because of this, it would most certainly have been in character (that's right, I'm claiming that this was out of character on Lelouch's part) for Lelouch to either keep the position of leading Brittania or become Zero once more (rather than give the position to someone as foolish and non-leader like as Suzaku).

Copout: Because Lelouch died, the writers never had to resolve either of the prominent pairings in the series (Lelouch/Kallen and Lelouch/C.C). Indeed as the romantic interest was most certainly someone which they had built up and something which the fans had come to adore. Rather (like other pieces of the plot which I had talked about), the writers just threw all of that out of the window. This is not only extremely lazy, but also very disrespectful to the fans.

>>>>3: Deux ex machina and general writing errors: This one shall be quick and simple.

1) Suzaku survived after we had seen his knightmare explode. Up until this point in the series, we had been led to believe that a knightmare exploding entirely (ejection capsule included0 was to signify that the pilot inside had died. So how did Suzaku survive just to magically come back, dress up as Zero, and kill Lelouch?

2) How did nunally manage to see Lelouch's memories as well as recollection of the events which occured during the point where he had revealed his plan to Suzaku? Last I check, only C.C. could cause this when someone touched her.

3) When Nunally opened her eyes and was able to recover her vision, we as the audience were told that this was because Nunally's will was strong enough to break through the effects of a geass. So tell me, how did she NOT break through the effects of Lelouch's geass when he casted his geass spell upon her? If anything, this was just a convenient way to have Nunally open her eyes so that Lelouch could Geass her. Forget there being a chance for Nunally to surrender based on an actual discussion. Sheer laziness on the part of the writers.

4) Why is it that Jerimiah Gottwald (Orange) just happened to go along with Lelouch's plan to off himself? We had earlier been told that Jerimiah only joined Lelouch so that he may serve someone with Marianna's (lelouch's mother) blood? Yet he not only agrees with the plan (hence the line he makes when Suzaku jumps over him as Zero in order to kill Lelouch), but we no longer see him as a knight at the end of the series. Rather, for no reason whatsoever, he pairs up with Anya and is seen harvesting oranges.

5) Exactly what purpose was their to having Cornelia be "killed off" by Schneizal only to reveal that she (as well as Gilford) had been alive all along? Keeping her and guilford alive did nothing for the plot, thus, this was simply a waste of time on part of the writers.

6) Why is Schneizal (who is represented as someone on par or even above the level of Lelouch) defeated so easily? Much less, why is he defeated by a scheme that has already been used several times earlier in the series? Why not have him be defeated by a plan that is actually original?

7) Why is it that the writers made a big deal out of the mysterious illness of Xing-Ke? For that matter, why is it that he just suddenly vanishes from the plot in the final episode? Not only is his character left unresolved, but now, he is essentially represented as a worthless character.

>>>>CONCLUSION:

Thus, given the above errors, here is how the series should have ended (or at least, would have ended without succumbing to any of the problems suggested above).

First, Lelouch should have either gone with the plan to ally himself with the rest of the world (rather than make himself an enemy) or he should have hired a body double to pose as himself during the instance where he is "killed" by Zero. If Lelouch were to have gone with the second plan, he could take back up the mantle of Zero and govern the world from the shadows (with Nunally, Kallen, C.C, Orange, and Suzaku being the only ones to know of his identity). Orange and Suzaku would still be able to visibly serve Brittania and could merely provide the same story Lloyd and C�cile had provided (in that they were simply serving Lelouch). In this way, Lelouch wouldn't be contradicting himself when taking notice of all the times he has told others (such as Suzaku and Kallen) to "live on." In addition, Lelouch would bear eternal resposibility for what he started by seeing it through until the end. Finally, there'd be no need to shoehorn the nonsensical crap which revolved around Nunally (such as her seeing Lelouch's memories or even her being geassed by Lelouch in the first place).

Second, characters like Cornelia or Guilford would STAY dead. Again, resurrecting them serves no real purpose.

Third, Schneizal would have been a worthy opponent to the very end. Rather than make him apathetic towards the world, he should have lived up to Diertard's expections; he should have been just like Lelouch was, only to a level more extreme. In addition, he would have been given an actual reason for this villainy.

Fourth (and this one will be a bit hard to accept for some), in terms of pairings, Lelouch would have paired up with both C.C and Kallen. In other words, it would either be a "harem" resolution or Lelouch would have temporarily paired up with one of the girls only for them to die nobally in the end, thus leaving Lelouch with no option but to pair with the other.

Fifth, Suzaku's fake "death" on the damacoles would have been more believable OR this could have been the point at which he had died.

For these reasons suggested, we can only conclude that the ending to Code Geass was poorly contrived from a writers perspective. Keep in mind, some of these point may need elaboration. And that's all for now.
Debate Round No. 2
Kleptin

Pro

I'm going to try to make this as short as possible because I'm more interested in hearing what LM has to say than flowering up my responses (which will still be counterpoints, of course).

I personally believe that the ending for Code Geass is essentially as good as it can get. I'll start by responding to my opponent's points.

#1- The concept of the Code Carriers need not be explained here because they are immortal. Hence, this leaves the option of creating an R3 with new characters and a new plot. The plot of R1 and R2 is just the story of one mortal, whereas these Code Carriers have a much, much larger role in the world. To answer these questions little by little in a R3 or R4 would be the best way to expand the Geass universe.

#2A- Political ties here and there would still interfere. To simply be a part of a coalition is meaningless because as people die, or are assassinated, whatever was held together would break apart. The only way he could unite the world and KEEP it united, was to gather all the hate onto one person, and eliminate that one person, and that person was himself. As to why he could not join the UFN, Lelouch was still not finished by that time. If he joined the UFN, which is essentially a group of cowards, his vote would be limited. Lelouch needs all his cunning in order to beat Schneizal, as Schneizal is his older brother and the one person whom he could not beat in chess. Having restrictions on his ability to act would lead to the destruction of his entire plan, as Schneizal wanted to take the throne, and only let Lelouch take it because he thought he could reclaim it whenever he wanted and look like a hero uprooting the despot.

#2B- Nunally likes Suzaku, and his main focus is to create a future for her and thus, that future must include him. This is why he "wasted" his one Geass on commanding Suzaku to survive, because Suzaku had the nobility and goodness that he himself lacked. Lelouch was good at using power as a means, but Suzaku would be better using power for the good of the people. As for leadership, all of Lelouch's strategic prowess can be found in Schneizal, who has been commanded to obey "Zero". Thus, by handing the mantle of Zero down to Suzaku, he has given the world a perfect leader. Lelouch bestowed admiration and praise onto Li Xingke, the Chinese Swordsman, since he seemed to be the perfect person, as he had a mix of both Lelouch's intelligence and Suzaku's strength. In merging Suzaku with a loyal Schneizal, he essentially creates this person. As to why Lelouch himself could not stay in power, it is because he needed to die in order for the world to unite completely.

#2C- Romance was never the key point of Code Geass, and the only purpose of keeping it in was to fuel the actual plot as well as add fanservice. The Anime had been about much larger ambitions and worldwide events, so the glossing over of romance was a nod to how trivial other matters seemed in relation to what was going on politically.

#3(1)- Suzaku's command to survive leads him to perform the appropriate action to survive even against his own will, such as the firing of the FLEIJA bomb. That would be my explanation. I would not term this Deus Ex Machina *or* a writing error because there would be no way to incorporate Suzaku's survival without ruining the anime and Zero requiem was planned long before, he needed to be a part of it.

#3(2)- Lelouch did this on purpose, in order to show Nunally that he wasn't evil. He had developed the final stage of Geass and thus, was able to perform this feat.

#3(3)- This needed to happen for Nunally to hate Lelouch, she had to give the key to him unwillingly and she knew that Lelouch would never harm her. As for reasoning out *why* it was possible, there can be several reasons. First, both VV and Charles are dead and when the user and contracter of a Geass are dead, the Geass effects, if sustainable, are easy to break. Second, it could be that while Charles' control of Nunally's eyesight is sustained, Lelouch's mind control is a permanent shift that won't release unless shifted in the opposite direction say, by Jeremiah's geass canceller.

#3(4)- Gottwald was not originally supposed to be a part of Season Two. Writers planned to kill him in Season One but the fanbase was large, so it was rewritten to include him here and there.

#3(5)- The fans. If they don't have to die for the plot, they shouldn't, just to appease fans who want to write fics or to make for R3.

#3(6)- This part I am confused about. I found that Schneizal's defeat was pretty fair.

#3(7)- See above reference to Li XingKe

The problem with my opponent's suggested ending is that it lacks drama and closure. Lelouch is a tragic hero and the entire ambiance of the anime would have been ruined if Lelouch manages to attain what he wanted to without some major sacrifice. By having Lelouch killed in order to provide world peace, he impacts CC's own view of Geass and the meaning of Geass overall, that it isn't just a means to power and that wielded effectively, it can do good. This moral would be diluted heavily if Lelouch survives. Thus, I find that all of my opponent's suggestions in his conclusion would make the entire anime meaningless (or, rather, would make it considerably less dramatically effective), with the exception of Suzaku "dying" on the Damocles.

I would have made that change.
Logical-Master

Con

#1. PRO would like you to believe that the concept of code carriers would be best explored if the writers were to continue with another series, however, in response, I cannot help but point out that this is a bit too presumptuous on PRO's part as that assumes that there will be future seasons.

Also, not only does this technically conflict with one of his later points (which I'll get to in a moment), but PRO is essentially advocating that Code Geass continue onwards without Lelouch, which is simply the worst move possible as Code Geass without Lelouch is like the film "Spider-Man" having no Peter Parker or Death Note without Light Yagami. It just isn't the same as the fans are drawn to the series because of compelling and uncanny protagonist. Now sure, this series could attempt to create a new character, but when looking at series such as Yugio GX (a series which tried to top the original series) it becomes extremely apparent just how difficult it is to create a character on par or above the original character who kept the series going (especially when the original character is popular enough to be placed in top anime character awards) (yes, I'm saying Yugio GX is crap and I have ratings to prove it, if needed).

So unless PRO is willing to agree that killing off Lelouch was a bad idea, there's not much he can do here.

#2. I agree with the plan of KEEPING the world united through forcing all of the hate onto one person, hence why I suggested that Lelouch place all of the hatred on Schneizal. The man was willing to hold the world hostage with his massive supply of FLEIJA warheads. PRO has yet to provide us with any reason as to why Lelouch could not have simply picked the easier (and perhaps more fitting) target, Schneizal.

As far as joining the UFN goes, PRO was it not the Black Knights who nearly screwed up Lelouch's plan to combat the Damacoles (the Black Knights forced him to use his Mount Fuji contingency plan)? If not for the Black Knights, taking down the Damacoles would have been easier. In addition, Lelouch would have had the strategical genius Xing-Ke on his side, thus even more cunning to help him defeat his older brother. Since we were given no reason to believe that joining the UFN wouldn't prevent Lelouch from doing battle with Schneizal (who was a threat to the whole world, the UFN would have helped them), there would have been no consequences to siding with the UFN.

#2B: Incorrect. In the 18th episode of R2, Lelouch states the reason as to why he casted the "survive" geass on Suzaku and that was to escape the dire situation he was in. He said nothing about Suzuaku possessing nobility and goodness. If anything, Suzaku has been just as "evil" as Lelouch has in the series (heck, he even agreed that Lelouch's methods were correct after Nunally's fake death), so there's no reason to believe PRO's description of this character.

In addition, he also tells Kallen to "survive" before leaving the Black KNights, so if anything, this simply tells us that he is against the notion of someone throwing away their life and taking the easy way out (which actually makes Lelouch look like a hypocrite, hence another reason as to why the ending was bad).

I've already shown that Lelouch didn't need to die, so my point on Lelouch giving up his responsibility over his actions as well as his sister still stands. In addition, it is abundantly clear that PRO's earlier point on there being sequals to Code Geass doesn't mesh well with this argument as that would suggest that there would be conflict in the future (as conflict is necessary for every story). Thus, that would mean that Lelouch would have failed to create the peaceful world PRO is claiming he did, which would ultimately make his death appear meaningless (in contrary to PRO's belief).

#2C- Ah, but romance is what keeps the fanfics rollin. Even my opponent expresses this concern even for two "useless" characters.

#3(1)- That's fine and dandy, however, it was implied that the geass effects on him don't actually make him invincible as suggested during his first battle with the Knight of One. If he were shot in the head via shotgun, he'd surely perish. All the same, we see the Lancelot destroyed entirely. Essentially, this would be the equivalent to the writers not telling us how Mao had survived being shot several hundred times over. We as the audience can only suspend so much disbelief. As for there being no way to incorporate Suzaku's survival, this is simple. Orange was able to make it to the end of the series in spite of having previously worked with Lelouch, so providing Suzaku an ending similar to his would fulfill my opponent's desire to make sure the Zero Requiem is still pulled off (with Lelouch taking charage as Zero instead of Suzaku). Of course, this assumes that the Zero Requiem is even a necessary plan. As I've shown above, there was a far better alternative.

#3(2)- PRO states that Lelouch received this power through activating the final stages of the geass, but this is baseless conjecture at best as there is no evidence to support his claim that this is indeed what happens for the final stage of the geass.

#3(3)- If the geass caster being dead was what served as the catalyst for making the effects of geass failure possible, then what sense does it make for Lelouch to rely on Schneizal or Suzaku knowing that both of them will easily be able to break it? As for the second possibility, although it's an interesting possibility, we are never given any reason to believe this (which is actually the problem with both of these "possibilities"), so if anything, in using this argument, PRO simply manages to exploit another writing error.

#3(4) This doesn't answer the question though. The concern raised was not why Gottwald appeared in season 2 but why he acted COMPLETELY out of character in choosing to let Lelouch die?

#3(5) See my points on the possibility of R3 as well as how fan appeal can be used to justify an ending with a pairing.

#3(6) First, Schneizal was defeated by a simple strategy which Lelouch has used twice before in the series; it was used once against Kallen and once against Mao. If we are to belief that Lelouch and Schneizal are tactical equals, then its rather silly that the writers would expect us to believe that Lelouch would be able to use a strategy which could only be used on characters with a vastly inferior intellect (no offense to Kallen).

Second, we have little to no reason to really admire Schneizal as a villain. This is not only because there is really nothing legitimate that DRIVES him towards his villainy (contrary to well renowned fictional villains such as the Joker, Hannibal Lector, Professer Moriarty and Darth Vader), because he is not smart enough to take precautions against the geass (which at least the Black Knights had managed to do), but because he ultimately is not attached to anything, including his goals, hence, there is never any opportunity for their to be a dramatic dual to the death between the two brothers given that one will simply give up before things escalate so far.

#3(7) -The above reference doesn't answer why the writers simply end up "ejecting" Xing Ke from the series.

Finally, he says the entire ending would have been ruined if Lelouch managed to attain what he wanted without some major sacrifice, but really, killing himself is what Lelouch has wanted. He wanted his sins to be cleansed. When we look at the picture in that regard, it is clear that there was no real sacrifice from lelouch given that he got what he wanted how he wanted it. I agree with the issue that there should be a sacrifice and that sacrifice should have revolved around Lelouch sacrificing his pressing desire to atone and escape responsibility. Having Lelouch realize that he should take his own advice and live on would have been an excellent epiphany.

And, I'm running low on characters, so I'll address that bit about C.C
Debate Round No. 3
Kleptin

Pro

Kleptin forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Con

My opponent forfeits, therefore extend all arguments across.
Debate Round No. 4
Kleptin

Pro

Kleptin forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Con

Thanks for the debate. Vote for me. :D
Debate Round No. 5
36 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Laurcus 7 years ago
Laurcus
I agree that the ending sucks, but I also thought the argument had merit even though the creator said he died. The only thing i know for sure is they will bring him back if they think they can make money from it lol. Who knows i could see them saying o btw he is alive he was technicaly dead but now we are gonna show that he is alive. And then the reason they give is the exact same thing we just got done talking about. So i can rest assured if they think they can make more money off of bringing lelouch back than they can with another project they will do it and find a way to justify it after the fact cuz their a company and thats what they do. They screw up great shows to make more moneys
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
On second thought, having given it some thought, those arguments are pretty decent (granted, one of the blogs you provide debunks them). I shall not address them directly (I will note that they are well crafted), however, I will remind of the strongest reason to believe Lelouch has died and it is none other than what one of the bloggers had stated: Lelouch wanted to atone for all the sins which the took the burden of bearing. To not die would simply go against all of that.

Of course, in the end, regardless of what is argued, Sunrise confirmation pretty much makes all arguing pointless. I think that the reason there are so many arguing that he isn't dead is because they simply don't like the ending. Which I agree: The ending is BS (though as was R2 when you think about it).
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Oh yeah, almost forgot about this. I shall respond promptly.
Posted by Laurcus 7 years ago
Laurcus
lol that really really sucks :(
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
edit: 80% range
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
I'm in a bit of hurry, so I will respond to all of what you have said later, but I will reply to one thing:

"And if you don't mind me asking why do you lose so many debates simply due to the votes when you clearly have a better argument and most of your opponents forfeit after the first or second round? who did you piss off on this site lol."

Initially, I had a win ratio that remained in the high 80%, but then a troll who doesn't like me gathered a bunch of extra accounts and voted me down on all of my debates. So yes, I suppose you can say I did piss someONE off. :D
Posted by Laurcus 7 years ago
Laurcus
FOUND IT YAY!!!!!! here is the link
http://animeotaku.animeblogger.net...
also a couple other interesting sites i found
http://brianandrew.wordpress.com...
http://wiki.answers.com...
The funny thing is how the wiki answers one says that sunrise confirmed his death..... then they go on to talk about how he is alive for everyone that doesn't want to belive what sunrise said.
Posted by Laurcus 7 years ago
Laurcus
And if you don't mind me asking why do you lose so many debates simply due to the votes when you clearly have a better argument and most of your opponents forfeit after the first or second round? who did you piss off on this site lol.
Posted by Laurcus 7 years ago
Laurcus
O and a couple other things Nunnaly would have still cried about lelouch's fake death cuz she still has to live her life without her beloved brother. And i will attempt to find the forum that i thought had the best info though that may take a bit as im not sure what the site was called and i did visit like 5 when i got done watching the show lol but i will try to find it. also i would like to thank you again for your time and especialy for seting me straight on a few things such as there was no other 2 episodes. and a couple of fun facts consider it food for thought from what i heard the crane in japanese myth symbolizes two thing all things coming full circle and immortality. and the other thing the fact is charles did touch lelouch with his right hand the one that had the code on it after lelouch had a fully developed geass meaning if he did not get the code he came painfuly close.
Posted by Laurcus 7 years ago
Laurcus
thank you very much for the insight. now in a way i don't know what to belive as i can see both sides. the almost final definative piece of evidence is that the creator said he is dead, but I do want to make a couple things clear i do NOT think that Charles would help lelouch as he is a an a**hole. though some theorys i have heard on all the points you contest.
1 Charles might have given lelouch the code for a couple of reasons 1 he wanted to do a kind of live on and suffer thing were he forces immortality on lelouch or the other one which i find to be far more likely he was just angry and trying to strangle lelouch and in his rage did not realize that he gave him the code.
2 I can't remember this for sure but at one time in season 1 suzaku gets close to C.C. and sees her memories and later she said she let him see some of her more intense memories.... or something like that i never said i was good at providing the best info :) but if im not on crack that would imply that a code bearer can let people see parts of their memories and at least partialy control it.
3 C.C. was crying at the church cuz they did not know for sure if lelouch truly had immortality and they were gambling on that fact.
4 as for why lelouch just did not don the mask of zero himself after his fake death he could simply rest assured that suzaku would handle everything from now on and he finnaly gets some peace via a normal life with C.C. in the country, and he gets to enjoy the peaceful world he helped create while suzaku must remain zero forever.
Keep in mind these are other peoples theorys and im kinda split on the whole thing now. From a story standpoint the best thing in your favor is as far as i can tell you never acctualy see his code like you you do with other characters such as C.C. and Charles.
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Con for the forfeits.
Vote Placed by philosphical 6 years ago
philosphical
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by kevsext 7 years ago
kevsext
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by Johnicle 7 years ago
Johnicle
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Vote Placed by DiablosChaosBroker 7 years ago
DiablosChaosBroker
KleptinLogical-MasterTied
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Vote Placed by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
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Vote Placed by mastajake 8 years ago
mastajake
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