The Instigator
ktimbes1983
Pro (for)
Winning
50 Points
The Contender
gonovice
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

Kurt Cobain is overated as a musician because of his early death.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/16/2008 Category: Arts
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,330 times Debate No: 1874
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (40)
Votes (16)

 

ktimbes1983

Pro

Kurt Cobain's stature as a musical icon has been heightened by his early death. Many other bands drew the kind of attention and were as important as Nirvana. His skills as a guitarists were mediocre and he was arguably the second most talented member of his own band. Nirvana's following during the early nineties has been matched by many other bands and was surpassed by Pearl Jam who never got the kind of respect that Nirvana did because all of the members of the band are still living.

In short, Nirvana is judged based on what they would have done. Cobain has been glorified because he died for his craft. There are plenty of bands that accomplished what Nirvana did and more, however Cobain is a rock god because he died at the same age as the likes of Morrison, Hendrix, and Joplin.
gonovice

Con

Kurt Cobain, is a rock god. you obviously don't listen to them, since he is an amazing gutarist. his death was just as famous as he was before he died.

pearl jam didn't get the attention that nirvana did because they aren't half as good as nirvana ever did.

without nirvana, grunge probaly wouldn't exist without nirvana. if it did nothing would ever be as famous nirvana.

kurt cobain was also famous because of his relationship with courtney love. she is part of the reason that kurt got so much attention. but getting that sort of attention only made his band and his talent that much better and more important to the world of music.

morrison and hendrix have nothing to do with him or his death.
Debate Round No. 1
ktimbes1983

Pro

"Kurt Cobain, is a rock god. you obviously don't listen to them"

I have "Nevermind", "In Utero", "Incesticide", and "Unplugged". I also read the book about the conspiracy of Cobain's death called "Love and Death". I'm familiar with the band. That is also how I know that Cobain is a sub-par guitarist. Not sure you know this but true Grunge derives from punk. Punk guitar is mostly power chords and is known for easy to play guitar as most of the songs only have a few simple cord changes in them. Fast guitar does not equal good guitar. Punk is credited more for the drums. This hearkens back to my case that he was number 2 in his own band.

"pearl jam didn't get the attention that nirvana did because they aren't half as good as nirvana ever did."

Au contraire. Pearl Jam (and I don't want this to turn into a PJ-Nirvana debate, I use pearl jam because they are the perfect example) sold more records.

Ten came out at the same time as Nevermind roughly. Ten sold more.
Vs. came out at the same time as In Utero. Vs. sold more.

It is clear that Pearl Jam was more popular at the time. Before his death he was a rock star like several others from Seattle. Since his death he has been elevated to legendary status. His legend has grown while he's been in the ground.

Check out the Ten vs. Nevermind numbers.

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com...

"Without nirvana, grunge probaly wouldn't exist without nirvana"

I'll put the structure of that sentence aside for a moment.

Grunge barely existed with Nirvana. That is another of the myths that has risen around Cobain. People give him credit for all of the music that came out of Seattle, when most of it sounded nothing like Nirvana. Here is a common misconception about grunge music. "Grunge consisted of bands from seattle in the early nineties. The big four of grunge were Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and Alice in Chains." That entire quote is wrong. There are only 2 bands that made a name for themselves that were actually grunge are Nirvana and Mudhoney. Alice in Chains is metal. Soundgarden is metal and classic rock. Pearl Jam is classic rock. Like i said, Grunge derives from punk. Pearl Jam sounds a lot more like Zeppelin than they do the Sex Pistols.

"morrison and hendrix have nothing to do with him or his death."

Agreed that they have nothing to do with his death. However they have everything to do with his reputation. The Courtney Love thing goes along with this as well. Being linked with these other famous figures has elevated his status beyond that that he actually earned. I hear about how Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, and Cobain all died at the age of 27 all the time. Why I read a story about a year ago about how Jack White was in a pretty serious car accident, and he was 27 at the time. Of course Cobain's name was pulled up with all the others.

Morrison was the american poet.
Hendrix revolutionized the most important instrument to rock and roll.
Cobain just gave people something to listen to and rot in despair.

Some brilliant artist.
gonovice

Con

I agree with you about the morrison and hendrix thing, that is true. but just because they all died around the same time has nothing to do with his fame or why he is a legend.

Fast guitar=good guitar. if you can play that quick with that great of a sound that is talent. If you really listen to JUST the guitar then you will hear the talent behind it.

What does Zeppelin and sex pistols have to do with this debate? they are good bands, just like nirvana. technically, pearl jam is not classic. a song has to be 27 years old to be "classic". it's rock but not classic.

maybe grunge comes from punk originally but it is a lot different, if you REALLY listen to it.
Debate Round No. 2
ktimbes1983

Pro

"I agree with you about the morrison and hendrix thing, that is true. but just because they all died around the same time has nothing to do with his fame or why he is a legend."

It has everything to do with it. His name is regulary brought up with Morrisson and Hendrix. Being lumped in with those guys has done wonders for his legacy.

"Fast guitar=good guitar. if you can play that quick with that great of a sound that is talent. If you really listen to JUST the guitar then you will hear the talent behind it."

I promise you i listen to more music and for that matter more nirvana than you do, so please stop throwing out personal stuff.

Second of all i have learned to play a little guitar, very little. Guess what, i can play a lot of the stuff cobain did. Most of the song are 3-4 chords with simple easy chord changes along the way. There is a reason he hardly ever plays leads.

Cobain played faster than most, he didn't play extraordinarily fast.

Fast guitar does not equal good guitar. That's ignorant. AC/DC's "Thunderstruck" proves that point. I can play the intro to thunderstruck.

"What does Zeppelin and sex pistols have to do with this debate? they are good bands, just like nirvana. technically, pearl jam is not classic. a song has to be 27 years old to be "classic". it's rock but not classic."

Please read my argument. You were talking about all that Cobain did for grunge. What did he do for the genre? His band was big. That's it. There is only one huge grunge band. I would argue that nirvana did nothing for grunge except profit from it. They certainly didn't help any other grunge bands. Mudhoney was around before Nirvana and they are the only other grunge band that made it at all.

Pearl Jam is classic rock, not grunge. "Classic" is a term applied to a sound as well as an age. In music it refers to the sound. Jet is another classic rock band as an example. So you are wrong again. My point anyway was that the thought that nirvana put grunge on the map is false. Nirvana is the only grunge band most people could name.

"maybe grunge comes from punk originally but it is a lot different, if you REALLY listen to it."

I do really listen to it. Just like the Killers are derived from 80's music but have their own sound, Nirvana is derived from punk. If you knew anything about Cobain, you would know that he idolized bands like the Sex Pistols and the Stooges.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Cobain wasn't much of a guitarist. I thing to be a great guitarist you have to be able to play a lead well. Cobain can't play a lead. He's not that good.
gonovice

Con

"His name is regulary brought up with Morrisson and Hendrix. Being lumped in with those guys has done wonders for his legacy."

Being lumped? I love Kurt Cobain, but he is nowhere near being as good as Morrison. Where do you get this stuff from?

How am I bringing personal stuff into it? How do you know you listen to more Nirvana then me, or even music in general? I told you that if you really listened to JUST the guitar then you would hear the talent behind it. that isn't personal. it's just true.

AC/DC sucks, if you didn't know. I used to think they were good, but that was before I listened to real music. Thunderstruck's guitar is mind-less. Nirvana is easy, but it defenitly isn't mindless.

I don't get what about Pearl Jam you think is so great, but oh well. The Killers aren't that great either. How do you figure they are derived from the 80's?

He could play lead, and he did it very well. You're not bursting my bubble, it's just your opinion, it's not like it means something to me, I don't even know you.

if you have anything to say to this round then put it in the comment box.
Debate Round No. 3
40 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by crushilista 8 years ago
crushilista
"I love Kurt Cobain. If you read the debate you saw that I have a bigger than average Nirvana collection. I also thing he is an amazing vocalist and writer"
Oh yeah, he wasn't a good guitar player honestly. I mean he's my favorite artist i've ever listened to, but he didn't excel in guitar. He made up for that in meaningful lyrics and a great voice. I admit that he may have become more popular when he shot himself, but that wasn't why he did it. If anything it was the reason he did it.
Posted by crushilista 8 years ago
crushilista
Ten has gone thirteen times platinum. I'm pretty sure that Nevermind went 26. That's 13 million more sold isn't it?
Posted by torqueman0 8 years ago
torqueman0
As a singer, songwriter, and professional guitarist, I think I have a little bit more insight on this topic than most "music listeners". This debate in itself is a waste of time because there is no moral implications or "life truths" being revealed by proving that Kurt Cobain deserves or doesn't deserve "Rock God Status" . Either way since everyone is arguing about how their opinion is right, I guess I'll give my humble opinion....

Kurt Cobain was a mediocre guitarist and has been quoted saying that he doesn't like classic rock or intricate blues based leads that classic rock revolve around. His chord progressions weren't anything special either mainly because of his simplistic approach to music. What made him an amazing artist, was his insight on simple truths about life. He was also born with a great ability to sing (and scream hah). His lyrics were cryptic yet insightful and the raw emotion he put into his songs was (and still is) unmatched by most bands.

As a composer/arranger, he did a great job at building tension and creating interest in hearing his songs all the way through, (basically creating a story without words). He had great hooks (musically and lyrically). Weather the more "intellectual" folks want to believe it or not, Nirvana, to most of the world, is synonymous with "Fathers-of-grunge". Kurt Cobain did that, and you cant take that away from him with irrelevant arguments like this. Therefore in my opinion he deserves his "rock-god-dom" because he did with Grunge what the other rock gods did with their genres. Thanks for reading.
Posted by theitalianstallion 8 years ago
theitalianstallion
Agreed.

Kurt Cobain=Horrid musician, okay song writer.
Posted by gonovice 8 years ago
gonovice
If you think I'm ignorant fine. I don't care. You don't know me, so get over it and grow up.
Posted by ktimbes1983 9 years ago
ktimbes1983
I think you're ignorant.

You are. Read.
Posted by gonovice 9 years ago
gonovice
yea, call me a name, you're really cool. I bet you actually think that don't you?
Posted by ktimbes1983 9 years ago
ktimbes1983
Well it's more like 15 douche.

You are ignorant because you have proven to know very little about the topic at hand. That makes you ignorant.
Posted by gonovice 9 years ago
gonovice
ignorance, are you frickin kidding me? that is ignorant if you ask me. i don't care about what you or your "3" people say.
Posted by Chuckles 9 years ago
Chuckles
good god, gonovice, chill. I never said you were "retarted" or even retarded! the comments just turned into a bitching column.
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Vote Placed by gonovice 8 years ago
gonovice
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Vote Placed by ktimbes1983 8 years ago
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