The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Jingle_Bombs
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Kylo Ren is the weakest Sith of the 5 main (listed) Sith Lords

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after 2 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/24/2015 Category: Movies
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,371 times Debate No: 84260
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (2)

 

imabench

Pro

SPOILERS OF THE NEW STAR WARS MOVIE MAY END UP IN THIS DEBATE, READ WITH EXTREME CAUTION IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE NEW MOVIE YET.

The 5 main Sith Lords (Defined as Star Wars movie villains seen wielding a red lightsaber at some point) are:

Darth Maul (Ep 1)
Count Dooku (Ep 2 and 3)
Darth Sidious (Ep 3-6)
Darth Vader (Ep 3-6)
Kylo Ren (Ep 7)

Grievous is not included since he never had a red lightsaber, and for the sake of keeping this debate short and easy to read.

I will argue that Kylo Ren, the main bad guy/Sith Lord featured in Star Wars: The Force Awakens, is weaker then all 4 of the other Sith Lords listed before (Maul, Dooku, Vader, and Sidious).

All matchups are implied to be between all villains at their prime, meaning you cannot argue that Kylo Ren would beat Vader simply because Vader is dead. Basically no trolling.

Con only has to argue that Kylo is stronger than any ONE of these 4, not is the most powerful of them all. It is suggested that Con list which Sith Lord they believe Kylo Ren is more powerful than, in order to make the debate more focused.

3 rounds, 24 hours between rounds, 5000 characters per round

Arguments:



1) Vader's strengths

Darth Vader was the most prominent villain in the original trilogy of movies, having killed Obi Wan himself in Ep 6, killing the Emperor (Darth Sidious) in Ep 8, killing Count Dooko in Ep 3 when he was Anakin Skywalker, having a hand in killing Mace Windu in Ep 3 as well, and battling Luke to a tie several times in the original trilogy of movies.... Vader was the original 'chosen one' meant to bring balance to the force, indicating he was already destined to be the most powerful Jedi ever to begin with, and his lengthy battle experience with other Jedi, along with the highest Jedi kill count of any Sith Lord, while also being trained by Obi Wan and then Darth Sidious, arguably makes Vader the most powerful Sith Lord of them all.... A face-off between Kylo Ren and Darth Vader would therefore be laughably one sided in Vaders favor



2) Sidious's Strengths

Darth Sidious, the former Emperor/Chancellor in the prequel trilogy of movies, was one of just two Sith Lords to be able to shoot lightning from his fingers (The other being Dooku), who in spite of his old age took down 3 Jedi on his own in Ep 3, before taking down Mace Windu with help from Vader, fought off an assault from Yoda, and almost killed Luke Skywalker as well before Vader intervened on Luke's behalf. Sidious was trained by Darth Plagueis, a person who knew how to fight off death itself who taught Sidious everything he knew before Sidious betrayed him, indicating that Sidious actually benefits the most out of all the Sith lords in terms of training..... Sidious was also a powerful manipulator of people, making him an extremely powerful Sith Lord despite his frail appearance, indicating he could easily mess with Kylo Ren's mind in a battle between the two. It is indicated in the movie that Kylo has control issues/mental problems as well, which for a manipulator like Sidious would benefit him as just another way to weaken Kylo Ren should the two ever face each other.



3) Maul's strengths

Darth Maul's only Jedi kill was Qui Gon Jinn in Ep 1 (Liam Neeson), but his double sided lightsaber and cybernetic legs physically allows Maul to take on much more powerful Jedi than others could. In fact it was these traits that allowed Maul to battle both Qui Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time to a tie before almost killing them both individually. Darth Maul was also trained by Darth Sidious, like Vader after him, meaning that Maul has more than enough potential advantages to help him triumph over Kylo Ren in a duel



4) Dooku's strengths

Dooku is the only other person to be able to shoot lightning from his hands like the emperor, and while Dooku fails to kill a single Jedi, Dooku does succeed in battling Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker himself in Ep 2, managing to cut off his hand, before eventually being killed by Anakin early in Ep 3. Dooku has proved to be a match for Anakin/Vader, and possesses qualities unique only to him and Darth Sidious, indicating that Dooku could almost swiftly beat Kylo Ren in a fight.



(MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD GUYS)



5) Kylo Ren's weaknesses

Kylo Ren, in Star Wars 7, is shown to be prone to fits of uncontrollable rage when given bad news and has several other shortcomings. His trainer, Snoke, also admits to a general that 'it is time to complete Kylo's training', meaning that Kylo Ren is still literally an amateur who hasn't completed his training yet.... Han Solo also explains to Kylo that Snoke is manipulating him, which if correct (as is probably the case) indicates that Kylo can easily be tricked by others into doing their bidding, making him very susceptible to people like Sidious or Vader in a potential fight. Vader is also the person that Kylo literally worships, meaning that it would be especially hard for him to kill Vader since Vader is Kylo's idol.

Kylo also shows difficulty fighting people completely new to wielding lightsabers in battle as well, where in Ep 7 Kylo struggles in fighting Finn and Ren, when both have minimal experience with lightsaber fights in the first place. If Kylo cannot handle true novices in a fight, he would stand very little chance against someone with extensive fighting experience, such as Vader, Sidious, Maul, or Dooku

For these reasons, Kylo Ren is the weakest Sith of the 5 Sith Lords listed at the start of this round.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

Of all the Sith lords mentioned, Kylo Ren would clearly be the most powerful.

Here's why:

1) Skywalker Blood

When George Lucas first wrote the Star Wars saga, he made it clear that his original plan was to create a space fantasy epic centered on the destiny of the Skywalker family, and not specifically on the history of the Jedi or Sith at large (1). The result was that Anakin Skywalker was the literal Force Chosen One, and Luke Skywalker was the archetypical Jedi who would single-handedly defeat the Empire and bring peace to the galaxy.

Of the Sith lords listed, Kylo Ren (with the exception of Vader) is the only one who can claim direct ancestry to the Skywalker family through his blood relationship to Leia. This gives Kylo Ren -aka Ben Solo- an indisputable advantage over any other dark side force user, he is the nephew and grandson to the two most important and powerful force characters ever created in the Star Wars universe (Luke and Anakin); and as a main character himself, he is meant to play a much more serious role in the future fate of the galaxy than either Dooku, Maul, or Sidious.

2) Strongest Dark Side Affiliation

In George Lucas’ explanations of the Force, Jedi who followed the light side were meant to be warrior like monks who derived their powers from inner control of their emotions. Those who followed the dark side however, were intended to be the exact opposite. Sith followers are meant to be sufferers who give in freely to their impulses, their anger, their fear, and their hate. Emotional turmoil, in particular, gives dark side force users their force powers. Kylo Ren therefore is everything that a powerful Sith Lord should be.

Unlike Vader, Sidious, Dooku, and Maul who are cold, chilling, methodological, and calculating in their emotions, Kylo Ren is anything but stable. He is fiery, angry, sick, and resentful, always acting out of spite and rage. Kylo Ren literally loses his marbles and wrecks entire rooms with his lightsaber whenever something goes abrupt, or lashes out at all those around him. Furthermoe his soul and inner being is uniquely locked in a titanic struggle to live up to Darth Vader's legacy whilst struggling to separate himself from any family ties he might have had as Ben Solo. The result is that Kylo Ren is the single most emotionally charged and motivated villain ever created for the Star Wars movies. And if the Dark Side of the force truly draws its power from emotions such as hate, anger, fear, pain, and most importantly, passion, then Kylo Ren's unique emotional motivations may make him one of the strongest and most gifted dark side force users ever.

3) Superior Galactic Influence

Part of being considered powerful in the Star Wars universe is being able to influence galactic events (like Jabba the Hutt), and in this regard, Kylo Ren is certainly a contender for the top spot. Like Darth Vader, he is second in command to a fearsome galactic military junta, the First Order. Unlike Vader however, Kylo Ren is also master to the Knights of the Ren, a paramilitary group of assassins and dark side worshippers who take on explicit kill/capture missions from Kylo Ren himself. It doesn't hurt to mention either that the First Order has possesion of the Star Killer Base, a galactic superweapon more powerful than the Death Stars. Kylo Ren's unique leadership position in both these organizations therefore gives him unprecedented power to sway galactic events, where he is decidedly more important to the political fate of the galaxy than Maul, Dooku, Vader, and possibly Sidious.

4) Indomitable Will

Of all the Sith Lord's mentioned, Kylo Ren has the strongest will and is least likely to cave to mental pressures. Unlike Vader, Kylo Ren had enough mental resolve in him to kill an immediate family member (Han Solo). He also had the stubbornness and resolve to shut out Luke from helping him while demonstrating unbelievable dark side fealty by killing his young padawans. Kylo Ren's mental strength of course, comes from him his lifelong obsession to outdo Darth Vader's legacy. This motivation in particular, gives Kylo Ren the mental fortitude and perserverance of an Olympic athlete who will stop at nothing at perfecting himself until his goals are ultimately realized.

5) Best Physical Conditioning

Kylo Ren is the best conditioned fighter of all Sith Lords listed. The Emperor and Dooku themselves are old and past their primes. Sidious' body itself is ruined and scared by exposure to his own force lightning. Vader of course, is more mechanical and machine than man, and has trouble breathing and moving fast. Maul, while notably agile, has subjugated his body over the years to insane amounts of torture training and tattoo body piercings that deliberately keeps his body in a constant state pain. There can be no doubt then, that at just 30 years old, while having an athletic frame, Kylo Ren is the best conditioned fighter of the lot.

6) Best Lightsaber Weapon

Kylo Ren's weapon is a specially designed lightsaber which feature a fearsome crossguard. The plus side of a crossguard is that Kylo Ren is better defended against the infamous saber slashes that cut off the hands of Dooku, Vader, Luke, and Mace Windu. Though a few saber enthusiast might argue that Maul has the best weapon, the advantage of a single hilt over a dual blade two-hander will always be that the non saber hand is free to use force powers.

7) Most Successful Star Wars Villain

Of all the villains featured in Star Wars. Kylo Ren is arguably the only one to have bested all the main characters. He stopped Luke Skywalker's plans to return the Jedi to the galaxy by killing his padawans; he then demoralized Leia, Han, and Luke to the point that they each went on self-imposed 30 year exiles; and then to top if off, he helped revive the Galactic Empire in the form of the First Order, just when we had thought the Rebals had won in episode 6 and that the galactic civil war was over.

1)http://tinyurl.com...

Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

1) Bloodline

Kylo Ren is the son of Leia and Solo. Since Leia is the son of Vader, but Solo has no 'force' in him (in the original trilogy he thought the Force was a bunch of bull), then Kylo Ren actually has a WATERED DOWN bloodline in terms of the force, since only half of his parents have any 'Force' to them to begin with.

This makes him directly INFERIOR to Vader in terms of bloodline, since Vader was the original chosen one meant to bring balance to the force, and since Kylo is two generations away from Vader, and only 1 of his parents have any 'force' with them at all, Kylo definitely does not have a bloodline advantage over the other Sith Lords, ESPECIALLY Vader. In the movie itself, Kylo admits that he still feels the 'Light' in him, indicating that in the amount of Force he DOES have, some of it actually pushes Kylo towards the right side, not the dark side.

Kylo's bloodline therefore does not prove any definitive advantage he would have over other Sith Lords in terms of ability to use or feel the Force.



2) Dark Side Affiliation

"Kylo Ren is anything but stable. He is fiery, angry, sick, and resentful, always acting out of spite and rage"

That is an argument AGAINST him not an argument FOR him. The fact that he is always acting out of spite and rage and is sick by your own admission means that other Sith Lords skilled in playing mind games with people (Vader, Sidious, Dooku), gives those people an advantage over Kylo in a duel.



3) Rank

"Kylo Ren is also master to the Knights of the Ren, a paramilitary group of assassins and dark side worshippers who take on explicit kill/capture missions from Kylo Ren himself."

Sidious was an EMPEROR who had EVERYTHING under his command, including multiple death stars and all other Sith Lords listed in round 1. If we break down strength by where people rank, Sidious has Kylo Ren outclassed by miles.



"Kylo Ren's unique leadership position in both these organizations"

Kylo isn't a leader at all. He answers directly to Snoke, Snoke being the one who also commands Starkiller base, not Kylo. Even General Hux answers directly to Snoke when not answering directly to Kylo, meaning Kylo is just an ordinary low ranking general if nothing else.



4) Willpower

"Kylo Ren has the strongest will and is least likely to cave to mental pressures"

You literally mentioned earlier in your arguments that Kylo Ren is anything but stable.... Like you actually said word for word that 'Kylo Ren is anything but stable'..... He therefore IS very likely to cave to mental pressures, which Sith Lords like Dooku, Sidious, and Vader would be very good at utilizing against Kylo in a fight. Your previous remarks completely undermine your claim that Kylo Ren is the least likely to cave to mental pressures, and since Kylo is 'fiery, angry, sick, and resentful, always acting out of spite and rage', he clearly would be vulnerable to mind games from just about all of the Sith Lords mentioned before



5) Physical Conditioning

"The Emperor and Dooku themselves are old and past their primes. Sidious' body itself is ruined and scared by exposure to his own force lightning"

Sidious despite being hit by his own lightning, managed to fight off Yoda in Episode 3, and almost killed Luke himself in Episode 6. Dooku meanwhile was also the one who despite his age managed to cut off Vader's arm when Vader himself was in his prime, so even though Dooku and Sidious are old, they are still certainly capable of taking on Kylo in a fight.



"Maul, while notably agile, has subjugated his body over the years to insane amounts of torture training and tattoo body piercings that deliberately keeps his body in a constant state pain"

There's no evidence in Ep 1 that Maul was always in a constant state of pain. Even if it were true, the fact that he could take on two well-trained Jedi at the same time while in constant pain, killing one and almost killing the other, would imply that Maul could still take on Kylo in a fight, irregardless of being in constant pain or not.



6) Best Lightsaber Weapon

I recall Dooku and Sidious being able to shoot lightning from their hands, Vader being able to force-choke people, and Maul having a double sided lightsaber. Having a Crossguard on a lightsaber is a defensive measure at best that only pays off when in the hands of a very skilled user. Kylo had his shoulder and face cut several times by Rey in the lightsaber battle between the two of them, where the crossguards on Kylo's lightsaber proved to be very unhelpful overall.



"the advantage of a single hilt over a dual blade two-hander will always be that the non saber hand is free to use force powers"

Which is where Vader and Sidious and Dooku come into play since all of them have substantial non-force powers of their own...



7) Most Successful Star Wars Villain

"He stopped Luke Skywalker's plans to return the Jedi to the galaxy by killing his padawans"

Killing kids isn't that hard to do. Killing fully trained Jedi on the other hand IS, and in that department, Kylo can barely beat complete novices like Finn or Rey in battles. All the other villains have bested or at least thwarted even the most highly trained Jedi in battle, often while outnumbered... Kylo though has no victory of similar significance to his name.



"he helped revive the Galactic Empire in the form of the First Order"

It cant be proven that he revived the Galactic Empire via the First Order, its just as plausible that the First Order materialized on its own and that Kylo was simply indoctrinated into it by Snoke, his master, and the ruler of the First Order.





To summarize, Kylo is clearly weaker than the four other Sith Lords mentioned. He can be easily manipulated as Ep 7 strongly implies, he shows difficulty fighting people completely new to Lightsaber battles such as Finn or Rey, and by con's own admission Kylo is mentally unstable who acts out of emotional rage....

Jingle_Bombs

Con

R1 Rebuttals

"Kylo Ren is still literally an amateur who hasn't completed his training yet"

This is clearly an assumption. Most evidence actually suggests that Kylo Ren was trained by Luke Skywalker prior to betraying him.

"Han Solo also explains to Kylo that Snoke is manipulating him, which if correct (as is probably the case) indicates that Kylo can easily be tricked by others"

And yet Kylo Ren was able to resist the most charming, cleverest, and most manipulative scoundrel and smooth talker in the entire galaxy, Indiana Jones.

"Vader is also the person that Kylo literally worships, meaning that it would be especially hard for him to kill Vader"

A moot point. Kylo Ren would never have to face Vader. This debate anyways is more about who is the most powerful sith lord, not the best fighter.

"Kylo also shows difficulty fighting people completely new to wielding lightsabers in battle as well, where in Ep 7 Kylo struggles in fighting Finn and Ren, when both have minimal experience with lightsaber fights in the first place."

These fights came after Kylo Ren tanked a bowcaster shot from Chewbacca. According to the films, the bowcaster is arguably the most powerful hand-held blaster weapon in the galaxy. Furthermore, Ren appears to be a natural Force prodigy and possibly another Skywalker.

"little chance against someone with extensive fighting experience, such as Vader, Sidious, Maul, or Dooku"

Against Vader, Kylo would win. Kylo is in far better physical shape and has a crossguard lightsaber. Vader was defeated twice (once as Anakin) by having his saber hand cut off. Vader is also incredibly slow for a fighter and has difficulty breathing. Any damage to his suit could be catastrophic. And to close, Vader would have trouble finding the willpower to kill a family member and resisting his lightside, Kylo Ren on the other hand, would have no such problem.

Against Sidious, Kylo Ren would win. In the opening scene to ep VII, Ren used the force to hold still plasma energy fired from a blaster rifle in flight. He could use a similar force move to block force-lightning.

Against Dooku, Ren again would just cut off his hands like Anakin did. Ren has the advantage of a crossguard lightsaber.

Finally, against Maul, Kylo Ren would win as he has demonstrated in ep VII to a much more adept Force user than Maul. Darth Maul's force abilities appear to be limited only to force jump and basic forms of telekinesis. Ren can do all that as well as mind-read, force sense, and telepathically torture people. Maul also has the disadvantage of wielding a two-handed lightsaber, making force powers with the off-hand difficult, and is the weakest Sith lord in terms of rank and political power. Maul (unlike Dooku, Vader, and Sidious) has never demonstrated to be a leader of a galactic crime syndicate or anything more than a covert force operative working for Sidious. Therefore, unless Pro can demonstrate that Maul can influence galactic events in the same ways Dooku, Sidious, Vader, and Kylo Ren can, Kylo cannot be considered the weakest Sith lord.

1) Skywalker Ancestry

"Kylo Ren actually has a WATERED DOWN bloodline in terms of the force,"

Watered down means nothing. Kathleen Kennedy has confirmed that new trilogy continues the creative legacy of George Lucas by making the Skywalker family the focus of the new star wars films. By virtue of being a main character, and a Skywalker as well, Kylo Ren is by default one of the most important force characters in the star wars universe.

"Kylo admits that he still feels the 'Light' in him"

And yet he obsesses about Vader and has promised to finish what Vader started. Proving that Kylo Ren is a highly motivated Sith Lord who doesn't back away from filling some pretty big shoes. Ren has the mental perseverance and obsessions of an Olympic Athlete still in training and will stop at perfecting the dark side within him.

"That is an argument AGAINST him not an argument FOR him."

No. Darkside power is gained by giving into your fear, hatred, and emotions. Vader mentions to Luke many times in the Empire Strikes Back that "only your hatred can destroy me." Kylo Ren has much more hatred than the other Sith Lords.

2) Political Power

"Sidious was an EMPEROR who had EVERYTHING under his command"

This is possibly true. However, unless it can be proved that the other Sith Lords are more influential to the fate of the galaxy than Kylo Ren, Ren cannot be considered the weakest Sith Lord in terms of power.

"Kylo isn't a leader at all."

Kylo Ren is the Leader of the "Knights of Ren" where he succesfully led a rebellion against Skywalker. Kylo also leads several storm trooper raids in episode VII. Darth Maul, in comparison, has never led an army and commands no one.

3) Willpower

"Kylo Ren is anything but stable... He therefore IS very likely to cave to mental pressures"

It is a well known fact that people who are not stable cannot be controlled. This is why we have mental hospitals and court orders to detain people who are not stable. Rather than a combat weakness, Kylo Ren's emotional instability is a strength. He becomes unpredictable in nature and has a much larger and thicker sea of emotions to call on for dark side power.

4) Conditioning

"Dooku and Sidious are old, they are still certainly capable of taking on Kylo in a fight."

Kylo Ren tanked a bowcaster and still managed to fight in back to back fights. Han Solo has remarked that the bowcaster is the most powerful blaster rifle he has ever seen.

5)Crossguard Lightsaber

"Having a Crossguard on a lightsaber is a defensive measure at best"

Wrong. Severed hands is what directly led to the fall of Anakin, Luke, Dooku, Vader, and Mace Windu.

6) Most Successful

"Kylo though has no victory of similar significance to his name."

Kylo has no clear losses to his name. Vader, Sidious, Dooku, and Maul are all losers.

"the First Order materialized on its own and that Kylo was simply indoctrinated into it"

Ren deserves credit for leading the organization as its vader like enforcer.

Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

1) Kylo vs Vader

"Kylo is in far better physical shape and has a crossguard lightsaber"
"Vader would have trouble finding the willpower to kill a family member and resisting his lightside"

- A Crossguard Lightsaber provides minimal advantage in a fight against an experienced foe like Vader. It didnt help Kylo at all when he got whipped by Rey in Ep 7 and it most likely will have no effect in a fight with Vader
- Vader is Kylo's literal idol, it would be almost impossible for Kylo to try to kill Vader even if he was at Kylo's complete mercy since Vader's legacy is the main force driving Kylo to be a Sith
- Vader tried to kill his own son throughout the first trilogy, and Vader even killed both of his mentors (Obi-Wan and Sidious) who were family-life figures to him in his life. Vader would have minimal issue killing Kylo just because he is his grandson, the span of a rebel leader and a mercenary who both opposed the dark side.
- In Ep 7 it is revealed by Rey herself that Kylo's deepest fear is never becoming as strong as Vader and that he struggles to resist the light side as well.



2) Kylo vs Sidious

"Ren used the force to hold still plasma energy fired from a blaster rifle in flight. He could use a similar force move to block force-lightning"

- It is unfounded speculation that Kylo could stop force-lightning just because he managed to sotp a plasma blast, so it cannot be treated as fact that he could also stop force lightning
- Sidious can fight with a lightsaber as well, having fought off Yoda in Ep 3, killed several other Jedi in Ep 3 as well, and killed Mace Windu after getting an assist from Anakin/Vader. Sidious is very capable of killing experienced Jedi, Kylo does not
- Kylo is mentally weak and can be manipulated by others, and Sidious is the master of manipulating people to do what he wants. In a fight between Kyo and Sidious, Sidious would easily be able to weaken Kylo with mental tricks before finishing him off.



3) Kylo vs Dooku

"Ren again would just cut off his hands like Anakin did. Ren has the advantage of a crossguard lightsaber."

- Again, a Crossguard lightsaber would have minimal effect in a fight against an experienced Jedi
- Dooku fought off attacks by Obi Wan, Anakin, and Yoda in Ep 2 before being brought down by Anakin in Ep 3, making him 3-1 in Jedi fights. It would not be simple for Kylo to 'just cut off his hands' as you imply
- Dooku is also capable of force lightning like Sidious, and it is disputed whether Kylo could stop force lightning or not
- Dooku is also known for playing mind games, which against a mentally weak foe like Kylo would prove advantageous to Dooku



4) Kylo vs Maul

"Ren can mind-read, force sense, and telepathically torture people"
"Ren would win as he has demonstrated in Ep VII to a much more adept Force user than Maul."
"Maul also has the disadvantage of wielding a two-handed lightsaber"
"Therefore, unless Pro can demonstrate that Maul can influence galactic events in the same ways Dooku, Sidious, Vader, and Kylo Ren can"

- Kylo can only use torture techniques on people when they are heavily restrained and at very close distance. There is no indication he could do the same thing at a distance against someone who is unrestrained or is a powerful Jedi
- Kylo himself admits that there is still a Light in the force within him that he cannot distinguish. He therefore does not have any kind of force advantage over Maul since the force within Kylo is tainted to begin with.
- A 2 handed lightsaber is NOT a disadvantage, and to claim that it somehow is is ridiculous on con's part. It is very possible to wield a 2 handed lightsaber with one hand, and Maul did that several times in Ep 1
- Kylo CANT influence galactic events the way Sidious or Vader can, Kylo answers directly to Snoke on all matters and is just a pawn for Snoke to play with the same way that Maul is a tool at Sidious's exposure.



5) Other arguments

"Most evidence actually suggests that Kylo Ren was trained by Luke Skywalker"

Ep 7 clearly states that Kylo is still unfinished with his training, as admitted by Snoke, Kylo's trainer, himself



"Kylo Ren is by default one of the most important force characters in the star wars universe."

Doesnt matter. Only one of Kylo's parents have any Force qualities to begin (Leia) with while the other denied the existence of the force in the first place (Solo). Vader on the other hand was the original chosen one meant to bring balance to the force, indicating that he and every other Sith Lord are not at some sort of 'Force disadvantage' to Kylo just because Kylo is the nephew of Luke.



"Ren has the mental perseverance and obsessions of an Olympic Athlete"

By your own admission you admit that Ren is mentally weak who gives in to anger and frustration very quickly. He is therefore NOT an Olympic Athlete in terms of mental strength like you claim.



"unless it can be proved that the other Sith Lords are more influential to the fate of the galaxy than Kylo Ren, Ren cannot be considered the weakest Sith Lord in terms of power."

I only have to argue that other Sith Lords are at least equal to Kylo in terms of influencing galactic events, and then point to other qualities about the other Sith Lords to show that they are still more powerful. I have done exactly this as well.



"Kylo has no clear losses to his name"

He got whipped by Rey and was left to die on Starkiller base as the planet collapsed, that qualifies as a loss





In summary, Con has provided several arguments that are unfounded or are directly contradicted by earlier arguments he has made. Kylo is mentally weak as a person vulnerable to crafty opponents like Sidious or Vader, Kylo has not completed his training as a Sith either, and Kylo is not more powerful than any of the other four Sith I have listed, whereas Con has tried to argue that he is more powerful than ALL of them. All previous arguments indicate that Kylo is the weakest of all the Sith Lords listed, not the strongest

Vote Pro.




Jingle_Bombs

Con

Again, this debate was never about who is the strongest fighter, but who are the most powerful Sith lords. And If I am able to prove that Kylo Ren is at least stronger than one other Sith lord, I win this debate. However, I do insist that Kylo Ren is still probably the most powerful Sith lord overall.

Summaries:

1) Kylo vs Vader

1) Willpower - Vader struggled to kill Luke and was definitely manipulated by Sidious to join the dark side. Vader also has trouble ignoring his own lightside. In comparison, Ren made a conscientious choice to disavow his family, rebel against Luke, join the darkside, embrace the Vader legacy, and kill his father. Kylo Ren's resistance to Luke and Han's attempts to turn him back is especially telling of his own mental fortitude and commitment to the darkside. And contrary to Con's insistence that Ren might have a lightside (which in Ep 7 is still only an assumption put forth by other characters), Han Solo has remarked that growing up Ren has always had "too much Vader" in him to be a follower of the light.

2) Physical Conditioning - Con seems to have dropped the argument that Kylo Ren is in much greater physical shape than Vader. When Anakin Skywalker became more machine than man, he in fact lost alot of his force powers and midiclorians. As a melee fighter, Vader is also incredibly slow and totally dependant on his suit to breathe. Any damage to his suit is catastrophic, as shown in ROTJ when Luke could tank force lightning but Vader couldn't. In comparison, Ren successfully tanked a bowcaster.

3) Crossguard Lightsaber - when your two lightsaber defeats come from severed hands, a crossguard lightsaber could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Ren has the advantage here.

4) More Successful - Vader lost to Luke, lost the civil war, and inevitably abandoned the darkside. In contrast, Ren successfully demoralized every main character in star wars and sent them into 30 year exiles. Ren also stopped the Jedi from returning (killing Luke's students) and helped prevent a total Rebel Alliance victory over the Empire by playing a role in the rise of the First Order.


2) Kylo vs Sidious

Ren's key advantages over Sidious include;

1) Skywalker Ancestry - Kylo Ren is a direct descendent of Luke and Anakin Skywalker. Kathleen Kennedy has confirmed again that the Skywalker family will consist of the most important characters in the star wars universe (1). The star wars writers, therefore, will inevitably continue the tradition of making Skywalkers the strongest force users in the galaxy.

2) Stronger Darkside - Whereas Palpatine is even-headed, cold-hearted, methodical, and calculating in his demeanor and emotions, Kylo Ren is anything but. Ren is fiery, fierce, determined, and most importantly, emotionally charged. And if the way to the darkside truly is about giving into your hate, your rage, and your inner turmoil, then Kylo Ren may just be the Sith Lord with the strongest darkside ever seen in the star wars universe.


3) Kylo vs Dooku

Ren's main advantages over Dooku include the same ones as Sidious.


4) Kylo vs Maul

1) More Adept Force User - Ren has demonstrated to be far more proficient with the Force than Maul. Ren can read minds, force sense disturbances, and telepathically torture people. Ren has also demonstrated the unique force ability to stop blaster bolts in flight. Maul would have trouble utilizing the Force in a fight because of his dual-blade lightsaber which requires using both hands. Ren is also a Skywalker and is more naturally strong with the Force.

2) Political Power - Jabba the Hutt shows that you don't have to be a good fighter in order to be a powerful villain in Star Wars. And in terms of political power, Maul is the weakest of any of the sith lords. Maul's only claim to fame is that of a covert operative and assassin under the direct control of Darth Sidious. In comparsion, Kylo Ren is the leader of the Knights of Ren and has personally led several storm trooper raids. Ren is also an important leadership figure in the First Order, where he serves as 2nd in command to Snooke.

Other Arguments

"Ep 7 clearly states that Kylo is still unfinished with his training, as admitted by Snoke, Kylo's trainer, himself"

Con's original claim in R1 was that Kylo was "literally an untrained amateur." Yet Ep 7 suggests that he was trained by Snooke and Luke Skywalker himself. If still unfinished with his training, then it only means that Kylo Ren posses even more force potential.

"Doesn't matter. Only one of Kylo's parents have any Force qualities to begin (Leia) with while the other denied the existence of the force in the first place (Solo)."

Luke Skywalker has stated to Leia in ROTJ that force is strong with his family and that his sister has that power too. Plus, do you really think writers would ever make the Skywalkers weak? Nobody ever does that to their main characters.

"By your own admission you admit that Ren is mentally weak who gives in to anger and frustration very quickly. He is therefore NOT an Olympic Athlete in terms of mental strength like you claim."

Kylo Ren made a conscientious choice to embrace the Vader legacy and is the most motivated villian ever seen in Star Wars. He also had the mental fortitude to resist Han Solo's charms. Whereas Kylo Ren is unqiuely obsessed with perfecting the darkside within him and following his passions, he is like an Olympic athlete during training.

"I only have to argue that other Sith Lords are at least equal to Kylo in terms of influencing galactic events"

Definitely not Maul then.

"He got whipped by Rey and was left to die .., that qualifies as a loss"

Kylo fought back to back fights after tanking a bowcaster. Han Solo has remarked that the bowcaster is more powerful than any blaster rifle he has ever seen! Rey is also a natural force prodigy and could be another Skywalker. Importantlyy as well, Ren was trying to capture Rey, not kill her. This does not count as a decisive loss.

1)http://tinyurl.com...

Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
Apparently...
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
lol, people are still reporting votes on this debate?
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Sam7411// Mod action: NOT Removed<

3 points to Pro (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Awesome debate, but I think that Kylo Ren is not even close to the dueling, mental, force etc. abilities of the other listed Sith. In fact, he should not be considered as a Sith, as his training has not been completed and he stills struggles with the light side. Kylo's mental state is still at the point of "I don't like sand" and lightsaber tantrums. Darth Maul, probably one of the greatest duelists of all time, would destroy him in a fight. Count Dooku effectively undermined the Republic, Darth Sidious ruled an empire, and Darth Vader is arguably the most recognizable and imposing character of the Star Wars original trilogy. The only thing Kylo has going for him right now is light saber, which is arbitrary.

[*Reason for non-removal*] This debate is past the statute of limitations.
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Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Sam7411// Mod action: NOT Removed<

3 points to Pro (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Awesome debate, but I think that Kylo Ren is not even close to the dueling, mental, force etc. abilities of the other listed Sith. In fact, he should not be considered as a Sith, as his training has not been completed and he stills struggles with the light side. Kylo's mental state is still at the point of "I don't like sand" and lightsaber tantrums. Darth Maul, probably one of the greatest duelists of all time, would destroy him in a fight. Count Dooku effectively undermined the Republic, Darth Sidious ruled an empire, and Darth Vader is arguably the most recognizable and imposing character of the Star Wars original trilogy. The only thing Kylo has going for him right now is light saber, which is arbitrary.

[*Reason for non-removal*] The voter does point to multiple arguments to justify his decision, though admittedly gives minimal reason for dismissing Con's case. Nonetheless, it's sufficient.
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Posted by Robkwoods 1 year ago
Robkwoods
Dammit... I wanted to vote on this.

I personally think Jingle made better points. Very fun debate to follow.

*note* The Crossguard isn't for protection, although it can be used as such. The Crossguard is a product of necessary vents to keep the lightsaber from exploding, as the crystal is cracked.
Posted by AbuJarir 1 year ago
AbuJarir
He's silly when I saw this film at the day it xame out I was disapointed.
Posted by Theunkown 1 year ago
Theunkown
Kylo Ren losing to Rey made him a laughing stock of a Sith Lord. What a joke.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
A decent argument at least.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Makes sense. Well I'm sure someone could make an argument based on strictly movie canon.
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
I believe so to but others I know in real life think otherwise, hence the debate
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Sam7411 1 year ago
Sam7411
imabenchJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Awesome debate, but I think that Kylo Ren is not even close to the dueling, mental, force etc. abilities of the other listed Sith. In fact, he should not be considered as a Sith, as his training has not been completed and he stills struggles with the light side. Kylo's mental state is still at the point of "I don't like sand" and lightsaber tantrums. Darth Maul, probably one of the greatest duelists of all time, would destroy him in a fight. Count Dooku effectively undermined the Republic, Darth Sidious ruled an empire, and Darth Vader is arguably the most recognizable and imposing character of the Star Wars original trilogy. The only thing Kylo has going for him right now is light saber, which is arbitrary.
Vote Placed by TUF 1 year ago
TUF
imabenchJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: https://docs.google.com/document/d/189ZZtcwNrAHh6Z12dQGtRC9P8aNPFXkU5d6s-US3mtM/edit?usp=sharing