Kylo Ren vs Darth Maul
Debate Rounds (4)
I will be defending Kylo Ren, while my opponent will be defending Darth Maul.
Kylo Ren was born Ben Solo. His family is very strong with the force. His mother, uncle, and grandfather, Darth Vader, were strong figures in the force and lightsaber combat. Let's first talk about abilities:
Force Abilities: Most of this content will be coming from Canon sources. Kylo Ren is extremely powerful with the force. This is already understood, because his grandfather had the highest midichlorian count ever. In the beginning of Force Awakens, Kylo Ren abuses the ability of force immobilization to defeat his enemy. He stopped a laser from hitting him, and immobilized Poe. He is also seen as very advanced in torturing his opponents through the force. He is able to read minds, and torture them. These abilities have never been seen before. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi Wan, Anikan, and Darth Maul have never been seen to manipulate the force like Kylo Ren has.
Lightsaber Combat- Kylo Ren is extremely skilled in lightsaber combat. One might dispute these claims, because of his defeat with Rey. I may remind you that Kylo Ren slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices with his lightsaber. Kylo Ren is very experienced, and has eliminated all competition. He killed them all, and became the Master of The Knights of Ren. We only see a image of this mysterious group in Rey's force vision. It is believed that their are over 10 of these knights. The idea that Ren was better than all of these people, and became a master is very impressive. Kylo Ren also achieved the rank of one of the head commanders of the first order. Snoke also has noted that Kylo Ren is the most gifted of his students. Back to his combat skills, Kylo Ren would use the ability of force rage which was used in his duel with FInn and Rey. You many also remember that his grandfather before he was burned used this against Obi Wan. This power is very unpredictable and vicious to an opponent. Kylo Ren was skilled in this. Kylo Ren was able to beat FInn in between 30 to 40 seconds, and pursued Rey after that. The main complaint about Kylo Ren is that he was beat by Finn and Rey. Note that he was shot by Chewbacca before the duel which leads me to by next point.
Pain Tolerance: Kylo Ren is very resistant to Pain. This is seen in the force awakens. Chewbacca's bowcaster is very deadly. Han Solo was freaking out about the weapon earlier. This weapon would kill people in one shot. This weapon was instrumental in helping Han, Chewie, Rey, and Finn escape. Kylo Ren was shot by this weapon in his stomach. Not only did it not stop him from fighting Finn and Rey, but he used the injury as an advantage. He got anger from the injury, and he was able to fight off Finn and Rey.
Explanation for why Kylo Ren lost to Rey: The main argument for Kylo Ren loosing every duel to every duelist is that he got beat by Rey. Kylo Ren's objective was to never kill her. Kylo Ren was trying to be like Vader, and trap her, so he could bring her to his master. However, he was not as strong as vader, and did not succeed in doing this. Note that he was winning in the beginning of the fight, but Rey surprised him after she said the force. Kylo Ren not only suffered an incredible injury that should have killed him from the bowcaster, but was also hit by the lightsaber a few times by Finn. Kylo Ren was not in his prime when he was fighting. If Ren was in his prime, the fight would have ended in seconds with Ren coming out as the victor. We are comparing both Ren and Maul in their prime. Kylo Ren in his prime would be an unstoppable nightmare.
Note that you can only use canon sources in this fight. You can only use Phantom Menace and the Clone Wars for Darth Maul. If their is a novel that is canon about Darth Maul, then you can use that.
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Darth Maul certainly is not the strongest with Force abilities. I don't need to take 1000 characters to explain what everybody already knows. He did use the Force a few times, but certainly never developed that part of his game as much. He didn't need to though. His skills as a fighter and assassin did not require excessive Force usage.
I must counter your assertion that Kylo Ren is so powerful with the Force. From what I can see, Kylo uses his Force abilities more like a carnival barker. That's probably due to his Solo genes, which seem to mix badly with the more spiritual Skywalker side. His blatant immaturity contributes to his clumsiness with the Force as well. In short, Kylo Ren is something of a nitwit.
As far as lightsaber combat goes, Darth Maul would simply kick Kylo Ren's pretty boy bee-hind. An acrobat and master of weapons, This wouldn't be a fair fight in any galaxy. Contrast Maul's double-sided lightsaber with Kylo Ren's shoddily crafted piece of junk. Maul was able to combine the Force with his superior athleticism, making him a pure killing machine. Kylo Ren on the other hand, his lightsaber is just not well thought out. It's a wonder he doesn't lop off one of his own appendages with that clunky thing.
I also disagree that Ren would have defeated Rey had he been healthy. Of course he could not, we still have two more movies left in this series.
In summary, Darth Maul was a creature of pure evil incarnate, who took joy in killing and only killing. Kylo Ren is a spoiled little brat (a Prince of Alderaan, actually) who more than once shows that he can't control his temper and is probably going to self implode at some point. We're expected to feel sorry for him and his messed up upbringing and that's why he turned into such a sorry Vader wannabe, but in the end he's just a pretty boy loser. In the parlance of 1980's heavy metal - Kylo Ren is a Poser.
Darth Maul would crush Kylo Ren, given the chance.
My opponent tries to counter my argument on how Kylo Ren is strong with the force. Too bad my opponent was a complete failure at trying to bring up one example of how he is weak with the force. Ren extremely powerful with the force. He is able to manipulate midichlorians in an individual's body to cause a freezing effect. He did this to Poe and Rey. Let's call this ability force immobilization. If one can use this ability, than he can also use abilities such as force choke, and force throw which is the most basic.
By the way, how dare you insult Han Solo.
My opponent claims that Darth Maul would be able to easily kick Kylo Ren's you know what with his superior athleticism(superior dance moves). Alright, well how did superior athleticism help Darth Maul when fighting a padawan Obi wan Kenobi. A padawan was able to beat Darth Maul. Kylo Ren is already in tune with the dark side. I can already see Maul underestimating Ren, because Ren has padawan training. Maul would probably throw a quick insult at a rage in fused Ren. Ren would quickly use his anger to give me power throughout the battle. I can see this battle playing out a lot like Ren's battle with Rey. Ren is Darth Maul. Rey is Kylo Ren. Maul would probably try to pursue Kylo Ren, while Ren is running away. Kylo Ren and Darth Maul would than get into a lightsaber lock similar to that of Ren and Rey. Maul would probably throw an insult at Kylo Ren probably calling him a Prince of Alderaan or something to make Ren feel unworthy. After Maul insults Ren, Ren gives into his untapped rage, and comes out to overwhelm Darth Maul. Kylo Ren with all his rage could have a fighting style similar to that of his grandfather when he was fighting Obi-Wan. Darth Maul would be easily overwhelmed, and in the end defeated. One might think that this has way too much speculation and chance in order for this to happen. But, you would have to refer to Maul's battle with the padawan Kenobi. Kenobi came out with strikes that overwhelmed Maul. People like my opponent would think that Maul would destroy Kenobi in 20 seconds. No, Kenobi fights until Maul kicks him down a weird area. As we all know, Kenobi jumps and cuts Maul's body in half. Maul underestimated Kenobi's chances. It would be the same underestimation that would make Maul loose to Kylo Ren.
By the way, Kylo Ren would defeat padawan Kenobi if he had the chance, but that would be another interesting debate.
Pain Tolerance: My opponent did not mention anything about Ren's pain tolerance. If Maul cuts into a few places, Ren will just use that to his advantage in the battle. He took a bow caster for crying out loud.
Rey nearly killed Ren who in your words "is extremely powerful with the Force" even though she literally has zero Jedi training. Ren, who was being tutored by none other than Luke Freaking Skywalker, couldn't even beat a girl, and wasn't even able to dispatch of Finn. You think Darth Vader would have let Finn live? Not a chance. So clearly Ren's "midichlorian count has been severely hampered by his Solo DNA. Did he do a force choke in the movie? Nope never happened.
Ren is such a putz.
The next part of your argument, your little fight scenario, uses 1872 characters to say pretty much nothing. It's basically all just a bunch of jibberish your throwing in there because you have no real argument.
Darth Maul would dispatch weak sauce Kylo Ren with the quickness. Everybody knows it.
Ren's pain tolerance won't do him much good when Maul's double-sided lightsaber goes through him like a hot knife through butter.
Of course he survives, there's going to be two more movies. Duh. He is badly hurt though, which leads him to summarily get whooped by an untrained Rey.
Untapped power? You're just assuming he has this due to his lineage. I argue his lineage has been diluted, first by Padme's blood, then by the Solo blood. So at this point he's only 25% Skywalker. Hardly untapped potential and more than likely why he seems like he's already hit his Force ability ceiling.
What you call "Force Rage" (you made that up, it's not an actual canon thing) is really just Kylo's immaturity as a human.
"It would be unfair to Pro if opponent tries to address these arguments" - Jesus, you're a real whiner aren't you? While you can try to pre-emptively shut down my final argument, that's not why we have 4 rounds. There are 4 rounds because we get 4 rounds, and as the acceptor of this debate you concede that I get the final word. That's how it works, Turbo.
Maul does indeed underestimate Kenobi, but hey that's Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan who deftly fought Darth Vader before bowing out to become even more powerful (argument could be made he actually won that one) even as a decrepit old man. Maul killed Qui-Gon pretty easily, and any of them could make an easy victory battling silly Vader wannabe Kylo Ren.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by FlamboGus 9 months ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Pro. Spelling & grammar = push. After reading arguments, Con pokes many holes into Pro's theories about. Much of Pro's argument is based off opinion of one movie. Link provided shows Maul's light saber ability.
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