The Instigator
Ariesx
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
Lord_Libertarian
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Ariesx
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/28/2016 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 568 times Debate No: 85672
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

Ariesx

Pro

Round 1-Acceptance, Round 2-Cases, Round 3-Rebuttals, Round 4-Defense
I will support the fact that Kylo Ren would be able to beat Luke Skywalker.
You may use any evidence that is Disney canon.
Lord_Libertarian

Con

Accepted.
Debate Round No. 1
Ariesx

Pro

There will be spoilers in these arguments, so you have been warned.

Kylo Ren was born Ben Solo. His family is very strong with the force. His mother, uncle, and grandfather, Darth Vader, were strong figures in the force and lightsaber combat. Let's first talk about abilities:

Force Abilities: Most of this content will be coming from Canon sources. Kylo Ren is extremely powerful with the force. This is already understood, because his grandfather had the highest midichlorian count ever. In the beginning of Force Awakens, Kylo Ren abuses the ability of force immobilization to defeat his enemy. He stopped a laser from hitting him, and immobilized Poe. He is also seen as very advanced in torturing his opponents through the force. He is able to read minds, and torture them. These abilities have never been seen before. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi Wan, Anikan, and Darth Maul have never been seen to manipulate the force like Kylo Ren has.

Lightsaber Combat- Kylo Ren is extremely skilled in lightsaber combat. One might dispute these claims, because of his defeat with Rey. I may remind you that Kylo Ren slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices with his lightsaber. Kylo Ren is very experienced, and has eliminated all competition. He killed them all, and became the Master of The Knights of Ren. We only see a image of this mysterious group in Rey's force vision. It is believed that their are over 10 of these knights. The idea that Ren was better than all of these people, and became a master is very impressive. Kylo Ren also achieved the rank of one of the head commanders of the first order. Snoke also has noted that Kylo Ren is the most gifted of his students. Back to his combat skills, Kylo Ren would use the ability of force rage which was used in his duel with FInn and Rey. You many also remember that his grandfather before he was burned used this against Obi Wan. This power is very unpredictable and vicious to an opponent. Kylo Ren was skilled in this. Kylo Ren was able to beat FInn in between 30 to 40 seconds, and pursued Rey after that. The main complaint about Kylo Ren is that he was beat by Finn and Rey. Note that he was shot by Chewbacca before the duel which leads me to by next point.

Pain Tolerance: Kylo Ren is very resistant to Pain. This is seen in the force awakens. Chewbacca's bowcaster is very deadly. Han Solo was freaking out about the weapon earlier. This weapon would kill people in one shot. This weapon was instrumental in helping Han, Chewie, Rey, and Finn escape. Kylo Ren was shot by this weapon in his stomach. Not only did it not stop him from fighting Finn and Rey, but he used the injury as an advantage. He got anger from the injury, and he was able to fight off Finn and Rey.

Explanation for why Kylo Ren lost to Rey: The main argument for Kylo Ren loosing every duel to every duelist is that he got beat by Rey. Kylo Ren's objective was to never kill her. Kylo Ren was trying to be like Vader, and trap her, so he could bring her to his master. However, he was not as strong as vader, and did not succeed in doing this. Note that he was winning in the beginning of the fight, but Rey surprised him after she said the force. Kylo Ren not only suffered an incredible injury that should have killed him from the bowcaster, but was also hit by the lightsaber a few times by Finn. Kylo Ren was not in his prime when he was fighting. If Ren was in his prime, the fight would have ended in seconds with Ren coming out as the victor. We are comparing both Ren and Skywalker in their prime. Kylo Ren in his prime would be an unstoppable nightmare.
Lord_Libertarian

Con

Luke Skywalker is the Son of Darth Vader, everyone knows the story.
Force Abilities-Luke Skywalker is a second generation Skywalker, which gives him a higher mediclorian count than Kylo, a third generation Skywalker, making him more powerful. He was not trained young, so he may lack some of the specific abilities Ren has, but I believe he is stronger in the force with what he knows. Also he had a long time in exile to further tone in his force skills.
Lightsaber combat-
In Return of the Jedi Skywalker shows his skill by beating Vader, Kylos idol, in Lightsaber combat. Meanwhile i spent 20 minutes on my rebuttal against Kylo Ren's Lightsaber skills, which I will save for round 3
Pain tolerance-Young Luke struggled with this, a lot, but I believe that if return of the Jedi-Sequel Luke got injured he'd do better than Empire strikes back Luke.
Debate Round No. 2
Ariesx

Pro

Note to my opponent: You can use return of the jedi Luke. That is the most recent version of Luke that we know of. We do not know however the force awakens Luke's skills.

He does have a higher midichlorian count, but that does not translate into force abilities. Luke might have had more more force potential than Kylo Ren, but Ren was more experienced in the force, and that is what counts. Kylo Ren is able to immobilize people, and torture his subjects mentally using the force. These are higher level abilities that Luke did not know. All we have really seen of Luke's force abilities were his training with Yoda. All he was able to do was lift rocks, and get visions of the future. Something Kylo Ren would easily be able to do.

Con uses the main defense for Luke which is the fact that he beat Vader. Now, Vader was a broken man by the end of Return of the Jedi. There was conflict within him. He also has been shown to toy with Luke throughout the movies. Vader could have easily killed Luke in Empire and in Jedi. Vader does not want to kill his son. Luke even says that he feels the conflict within Vader. The emperor even says "I hope your feelings on this matter are clear". That is why I would argue that the argument for if Luke can defeat Vader, than he can defeat Ren should not be taken seriously, Darth Vader had toyed with Luke, because Luke was his son. If Luke was not his son, Vader would have killed him in Empire, and in Jedi.

My opponent does not go into Luke's pain tolerance at all. He only says Luke would take it better in Jedi. Well, first we do not have any evidence as to how he would react. He probably would react better than his younger self, but that is not saying much. Kylo Ren would keep fighting even if he gets shot by a bow-caster. If Luke got shot by a bow-caster, Luke would die. Kylo Ren's force rage would overwhelm Luke.

Example: I can see this playing out a lot like Vader vs Luke in empire. The scene that has the most importance in the analogy to this duel would be when Vader comes out of nowhere, and starts to destroy Luke, This was at the end of the duel. Kylo Ren is Vader, and Luke is Luke. Luke would not be able to handle the temper of Kylo Ren's force rage. He would be overwhelmed, and defeated.
Lord_Libertarian

Con

You claim that Kylo Ren was weakened by chewy shooting him, however if he was strong in the force, he was holding his Lightsaber so he should've been able to sense and block it. Then you claim Kylo draws anger and strength from it, which he tries to , but clearly fails. You say Kylo wasn't trying to kill her, but it doesn't matter, he got beat, that doesn't matter until he wins the fight, which he didn't. Rey "surprised" him?, no she didn't Ren sensed her power so he shouldn't have been surprised. And him being hit a few times fighting Finn, Finn isn't a force sensitive, a good duelist would beat him quickly. ( that was a condensed version of what I spent 20 minutes on, I'm on my iPad so it's hard to type a long argument, so I keep my arguments shorter) The only way Luke loses to this guy is if he a-significantly lost skill or B, Sacrifies himself
Debate Round No. 3
Ariesx

Pro

Your whole rebuttal were basic attacks on Kylo Ren, though you never said anything about Luke. You failed to bring up anything that will prove that Luke would beat Kylo Ren.
Response:
You first argue that Kylo Ren is not strong with the force, because he was not able to sense Chewbacca's blaster? Your first attack makes no sense. Ren just killed his own father, and he had seconds to comprehend what he just did. Also, I could make the same attacks on Luke. How come Luke was not able to forsee Vader cutting his hand off. How come Luke did not foresee Palpatine electrocuting him when throwing his lightsaber. Your logic is pathetic and can fire on Luke too. Your next attack is on Ren's force rage. You claim that it failed. It kept him from worrying about the devastating blast he got. Just imagine if Ren was conscious about his blaster. Finn would best him. By the way, you never responded to my argument explaining how if Luke was put in the same circumstances, he would fail. You dropped that argument. Everytime something injures Luke, he cries like a little baby. I fail to see how your argument has anything to do with this debate. Kylo Ren got beat by Rey, because Rey surprised jim. Think about it from someone else's perspective which you seem to be very poor at. Kylo Ren was thinking that he had the upper-hand in this fight. It was a girl that never held a lightsaber before. Kylo Ren is trying to defeat her, and get her to Snoke. When Ren is at a ligbtsaber cross with Rey, he seems to think he is in control of the situation. Boom, Rey starts to strike him down. It was a very immediate response. A response that was similar to that of a padawon Kenobie defeating Maul.
Conclusion:
Con has done nothing in the previous round to attack my case. He has not compared skill in lightsaber, force ability, and pain tolerance. He has dropped all of these arguments. Ren would clearly win this fight. Vote Pro.
Lord_Libertarian

Con

Lord_Libertarian forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
not 2 be mean,but man this guy is pathetic
Posted by Ariesx 1 year ago
Ariesx
I have started it.
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
i think i'll still do luke. i have a million argument for him
Posted by Ariesx 1 year ago
Ariesx
Sure thing Jonan4tor. Though which star wars character would you do
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
Ariesx,can u do this exact argument,but challenge me 2 it? I would put up a better defense than this guy,no offense. But still ur doing a good job
Posted by Ariesx 1 year ago
Ariesx
It would be the same case for him. I would just re-word. If I copy and paste the rebuttals, than you have an excuse to be annoyed.
Posted by diarrhea_of_a_wimpy_kid 1 year ago
diarrhea_of_a_wimpy_kid
Are you really just going to use the exact same argument in every debate? It's like word for word from the Darth Maul debate. You'd probably copy the same Darth Vader was the grandfather argument when arguing Kylo Ren vs Darth Vader.
Posted by Jonan4tor 1 year ago
Jonan4tor
Well had I been in here,I would have multiple argument for Luke,but he seems to be doing a good jon for Kylo Ren
Posted by Dumy15 1 year ago
Dumy15
Damn. I think this already goes to Kylo Ren
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by BrendanD19 1 year ago
BrendanD19
AriesxLord_LibertarianTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by FlamboGus 1 year ago
FlamboGus
AriesxLord_LibertarianTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeited turn - Conduct to Pro. Pro put forth effort into both supporting Ren and arguing against Luke. While I disagree with his argument, his arguments were better reasoned and explained than Con's.