Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker
Debate Rounds (4)
I will be defending Kylo Ren, while my opponent attacks.
You can only use what Disney specifies as canon.
If you want to cite something from legends. Say it in the next Argument, and I will say in the next round if it is acceptable.
Lightsaber Combat- Kylo Ren is extremely skilled in lightsaber combat. One might dispute these claims, because of his defeat with Rey. I may remind you that Kylo Ren slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices with his lightsaber. Kylo Ren is very experienced, and has eliminated all competition. He killed them all, and became the Master of The Knights of Ren. We only see a image of this mysterious group in Rey's force vision. It is believed that their are over 10 of these knights. The idea that Ren was better than all of these people, and became a master is very impressive. Kylo Ren also achieved the rank of one of the head commanders of the first order. Snoke also has noted that Kylo Ren is the most gifted of his students. Back to his combat skills, Kylo Ren would use the ability of force rage which was used in his duel with FInn and Rey. You many also remember that his grandfather before he was burned used this against Obi Wan. This power is very unpredictable and vicious to an opponent. Kylo Ren was skilled in this. Kylo Ren was able to beat FInn in between 30 to 40 seconds, and pursued Rey after that. The main complaint about Kylo Ren is that he was beat by Finn and Rey. Note that he was shot by Chewbacca before the duel which leads me to by next point.
Pain Tolerance: Kylo Ren is very resistant to Pain. This is seen in the force awakens. Chewbacca's bowcaster is very deadly. Han Solo was freaking out about the weapon earlier. This weapon would kill people in one shot. This weapon was instrumental in helping Han, Chewie, Rey, and Finn escape. Kylo Ren was shot by this weapon in his stomach. Not only did it not stop him from fighting Finn and Rey, but he used the injury as an advantage. He got anger from the injury, and he was able to fight off Finn and Rey.
Explanation for why Kylo Ren lost to Rey: The main argument for Kylo Ren loosing every duel to every duelist is that he got beat by Rey. Kylo Ren's objective was to never kill her. Kylo Ren was trying to be like Vader, and trap her, so he could bring her to his master. However, he was not as strong as vader, and did not succeed in doing this. Note that he was winning in the beginning of the fight, but Rey surprised him after she said the force. Kylo Ren not only suffered an incredible injury that should have killed him from the bowcaster, but was also hit by the lightsaber a few times by Finn. Kylo Ren was not in his prime when he was fighting. If Ren was in his prime, the fight would have ended in seconds with Ren coming out as the victor. We are comparing both Ren and Skywalker in their prime. Kylo Ren in his prime would be an unstoppable nightmare
Force:Luke is very strong with the force. He was the last of the Jedi,but now he lives in isolation. In the movies he was able to use all the Jedi powers of course,but then there's a bonus. In the comics,he turned to the dark side just to betray emperor Palpatine,who lived on in a clone body. This means that not only Luke is a able to use just the light side of the force,but also the dark side of the force. But that's not all,to be able to beat Palpatine,Luke turned into pure force. That;s right,Luke was so strong with the force,he turned into the force. Correct me if I'm wrong,but Kylo Ren never does that. And if what my opponent argument is true about the midichlorian levels,then Luke would have higher midichlorian levels than Kylo ren for two reasons.
1. Luke is the direct son of Darth Vader, AKA, Anakin Skywalker;who had the highest midichlorian count ever. Even higher than Yoda's. But Kylo Ren is just the grandson of Darth Vader.
2. Princess Leia and Han Solo are Kylo Ren's parents,and Luke's not. Leia and Han Solo never seen exhibiting any force abilities. Now if Luke was his father,it would be different since Luke is strong with the force. But he's not his father,Leia and Solo are. So Leia and Han being his parents doesn't exactly help bring your midichlorian levels up. In fact,it might bring it down alittle. But that's just my opinion,and I'll save it for the rebuttals.
Now when you say the stuff about Kylo Ren stopping a blaster shot,I wil admit,that did look cool,but Darth Vader did the same thing. If you would look back to the Movie "The Empire Strikes Back",Han Solo shot at Darth Vader,but he stopped it with his hand. It's just another form of what Kylo Ren did,just in another way. Now Sith have used the force to torture people like Kylo Ren did,but definitely not at strong as he did. So I'll give that one to you.
Combat:Luke is very skilled in combat and has beaten various opponents. He was trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda,and since Darth Vader is his father,combat probably runs in his blood. He was even training a whole new generation of Jedi when Kylo Ren killed them all. But I think this mostly in part by it was a surprise,like Darth Vader killing those young ones in movie three. But what makes Luke even more of an opponent,is that he's craft. Like how he used those bones to defeat the Rancor,or used the plant's and his surrounding around him. But Luke always think's things through and usually has a plan most of the time,and a backup plan. Which is a little opposite of Kylo Ren.Kylo Ren was a little bitch and kept throwing tantrums and was whinnying all the time. But Luke stays calm most of the time,except for the end of movie six with Darth Vader,but I guess that could be Luke using force rage,because I already said that he can tap into the dark side,but I don't think Luke liked force rage. But getting back to the combat area,Luke has had 30 year to refine his skills and train. He's been training longer than Kylo Ren has been alive.
Now when it comes to pain tolerance,it's a little unclear. He got his hand cut off and whined a little,but you get your hand cut off and see how you handle it. But anyways Luke got it cut off but he was back on his feet very soon after surgery,and i'm sure that wasn't pleasant. But emotionally Luke is very good. If someone he's close to dies,he grieves later and fights first. You can't really trip Luke up emotionally. The only reason Darth Vader was able to sense Luke in movie six was because Luke was worried about his sister. Same could be said for Kylo Ren I guess since he killed his father cried a little bit,but fought it off.
1. Con uses the again the point that Luke is the direct son of Dart Vader making him already extremely powerful with the force. Luke uses the light side of the force, while Ren uses the dark side. I am not going to enter a pointless debate about the fact that the dark side has always proven to be stronger than the light side, but we all know that it is a fact that the dark side is the faster way to power. Kylo Ren would be able to access more of his abilities early on, than Luke did. It would be interesting to see though a dark side Luke vs Kylo Ren.
2. Con again seems to really depend on heritage to win the argument for Luke. Con attacks Kylo Ren's heritage claiming his parents to be weak with the force. There are theories than Han Solo has some force-sensitivity, because of the fact that he was such a good pilot. Usually good pilots such as Luke and Anakin are really strong with the force. Leia also was supposed to be the other hope if Luke failed. So, Obi-Wan and Yoda were prepared to teach her, and clearly Yoda at least had faith in the fact that she might be able to destroy the sith. Since this truth is self-evident, Leia must have also had a lot of midichlorians herself. This should have passed on to Kylo Ren.
Combat: It is true that Luke was trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda, but these 2 were out of their practice. Yoda wasn't the guy that jumped around, and Obi-Wan was poor in combat when he had to go up against Darth Vader. Con also admits the reality of Kylo Ren being trained by Luke. Kylo Ren is probably already familiar with Luke's fighting style. Luke probable gave some helpful tips to Ren that helped him kill all of his students. Con claims that this was probable by surprise. We don't know when this happened. Kylo Ren is already very young in force awakens. He is between 20-25 years old. He was born 10 years after the second death star blew up. That makes him pretty young. He is probably the same age as Luke in a new hope. It is reasonable that he killed all of Luke's students when he was a teenager. That is pretty impressive. Whether he was a cheap camper, or outright went in there with his light saber. For somebody that young is very impressive. Something Luke probably couldn't pull off.
Pain Tolerance-Con cannot provide that many significant reasons for how Luke is better than Ren in this category, so I think it is only acceptable that Pro gets the point here.
Example: As I stated before, I see this fight going down a lot like Luke vs Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Kylo Ren steps in for Vader, and Luke is Luke. This fight would start although at the end of Vader and Luke's duel. Kylo Ren would immediately start to overwhelm Luke, and Luke would try to defend against Ren's force rage. Kylo Ren would eventually cut off Luke's arm instead of hand, because he is not as precise as Vader, and Ren would kill Luke.
My opponent stated that Leia did have force heritage,and while I realized this IS true,then I can't really fight that argument. Han Solo would then weaken the midichlorians when they had Kylo Ren,but that means Padme' would weaken it for Luke,and as I clearly just stated,Luke is plenty powerful with the force. So sadly,my opponent wins this part.
Pro said that Luke might be more powerful than Kylo Ren when it comes to light sabers,and that Luke probably showed him his skilled. But you see,Kylo Ren most likely quit before Luke showed him everything and took up training from the Sith. So Luke didn't show him everything before he left. And when he says that Kylo Ren is more trained than Luke,this is not true. He's had 30 to train between the movies,and some of the most powerful Jedi are self trained. Some self trained Jedi have gone among big threats. See the wiki for more. Now Obi-Wan did give Luke that spark withing him to help him become a Jedi. And then Pro says that force rage is a powerfully attack that strengthens him,I counter this. When Anakin lost his limbs and got his suit,he raided his agility for strength. And then As you see in the sixth movie,Luke clearly had enough strength within himself and use the force to help him when he needs.You see this from the fourth movie and then on when he uses the force to launch the torpedo that blew up the Death Star. And remember,he can access the dark side to if he needs that to strengthen himself.
Well, I am glad I win on the force part.
I think my opponent tried to make an analogy to the revenge of the sith battle, but Luke is not Obi-Wan. Luke gets overwhelmed immediately whenever he encountered Vader. Kylo Ren would do the same. Kylo Ren would just overwhelm Luke. This battle would go a lot like the empire strikes back battle as I have said previously. Ren would immediately overwhelm Luke with force rage. Luke would just hold back until his inevitable defeat. If Luke accesses the dark side, Ren would probably have experience with dealing with dark side people. This is because Kylo Ren is the master of the Knights of Ren A master is another way of saying you are better than everyone else in that group.
I think it is clear that Kylo Ren would win this fight. My opponent did a good job defending a side that would always loose if put under the circumstance.
Thanks for accepting this debate.
Jonan4tor forfeited this round.
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