Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker
Debate Rounds (4)
Round 1-Acceptance, Round 2-Cases, Round 3-Rebuttals, Round 4-Defense
I will be defending Kylo Ren.
Force Abilities: Most of this content will be coming from Canon sources. Kylo Ren is extremely powerful with the force. This is already understood, because his grandfather had the highest midichlorian count ever. In the beginning of Force Awakens, Kylo Ren abuses the ability of force immobilization to defeat his enemy. He stopped a laser from hitting him, and immobilized Poe. He is also seen as very advanced in torturing his opponents through the force. He is able to read minds, and torture them. These abilities have never been seen before. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi Wan, Anakin, and Darth Maul have never been seen to manipulate the force like Kylo Ren has.
Lightsaber Combat- Kylo Ren is extremely skilled in lightsaber combat. One might dispute these claims, because of his defeat with Rey. I may remind you that Kylo Ren slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices with his lightsaber. Kylo Ren is very experienced, and has eliminated all competition. He killed them all, and became the Master of The Knights of Ren. We only see a image of this mysterious group in Rey's force vision. It is believed that their are over 10 of these knights. The idea that Ren was better than all of these people, and became a master is very impressive. Kylo Ren also achieved the rank of one of the head commanders of the first order. Snoke also has noted that Kylo Ren is the most gifted of his students. Back to his combat skills, Kylo Ren would use the ability of force rage which was used in his duel with FInn and Rey. You many also remember that his grandfather before he was burned used this against Obi Wan. This power is very unpredictable and vicious to an opponent. Kylo Ren was skilled in this. Kylo Ren was able to beat FInn in between 30 to 40 seconds, and pursued Rey after that. The main complaint about Kylo Ren is that he was beat by Finn and Rey. Note that he was shot by Chewbacca before the duel which leads me to by next point.
Pain Tolerance: Kylo Ren is very resistant to Pain. This is seen in the force awakens. Chewbacca's bowcaster is very deadly. Han Solo was freaking out about the weapon earlier. This weapon would kill people in one shot. This weapon was instrumental in helping Han, Chewie, Rey, and Finn escape. Kylo Ren was shot by this weapon in his stomach. Not only did it not stop him from fighting Finn and Rey, but he used the injury as an advantage. He got anger from the injury, and he was able to fight off Finn and Rey.
Explanation for why Kylo Ren lost to Rey: The main argument for Kylo Ren loosing every duel to every duelist is that he got beat by Rey. Kylo Ren's objective was to never kill her. Kylo Ren was trying to be like Vader, and trap her, so he could bring her to his master. However, he was not as strong as Vader, and did not succeed in doing this. Note that he was winning in the beginning of the fight, but Rey surprised him after she said the force. Kylo Ren not only suffered an incredible injury that should have killed him from the bowcaster, but was also hit by the lightsaber a few times by Finn. Kylo Ren was not in his prime when he was fighting. If Ren was in his prime, the fight would have ended in seconds with Ren coming out as the victor. We are comparing both Ren and Skywalker in their prime. Kylo Ren in his prime would be an unstoppable nightmare.
Luke is the SON of the man who had the highest midichlorian count ever. He was trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and by Yoda himself. Also, on his first time flying an X-Wing, he blew up the Death Star. Mind you, many more better trained pilots, like Red Leader and Gold Leader were shot down. He is shown to be a quick learner. Perhaps his most impressive feats was communitcating with those that had become one with the force. I don't know about other people, but talking to ghost is pretty impressive. Who else accomplished this?
Wookipedia describes him as a "extraordinarily gifted duelist". He defeated Darth Vader. Although I'm certain Pro will say Vader didn't mean to kill him, that's debatable. I mean, didn't Vader kill a bunch of kids? Seems pretty evil to me.
Luke survived extensive exposure to force lightning, which would kill the average person. He then walks away just fine after that.
I think I'm done here. Onto the rebuts!
I am sorry I did not say that in the previous round.
Force Abilities: Kylo Ren is the grandson of the man with the highest midiclorian count ever. Also, he idolizes the dark side version of him which was definitely stronger. Either way, Kylo Ren was stronger in the force than Luke. Kylo Ren is shown using telekinesis in the beginning of The Force Awakens, and using the ability of force immobilization(the ability to manipulate one's midichlorians to freeze them.) These are very advanced force abilities which Luke was never displayed showing in the canon universe. I think it is also fair to note that I do think Luke had more midichlorians than Kylo Ren. But, this really does not say much. Midichlorians just show force potential, but they don't show experience in the force. Luke just never was able to learn abilities that Kylo Ren has learned. Luke is a fast learner, but Kylo Ren's achievements go without saying. He is by the way twenty years old which is about the same age as Luke in ROTJ. Kylo Ren is the Field Commander of The First Order. He is the Master of the Knights of Ren. He also earned the nickname Jedi Killer. He also killed all of Luke's apprentices, and destroyed what he was trying to build. Kylo Ren has done far more than Luke Skywalker, and has way more power(in the real sense of the word) than him.
Con uses Wookipedia to describe Luke as a gifted duelist, but Wookipedia says the same thing about Kylo Ren. Wookipedia says something like that for almost every main star wars character, because there the main characters. I did say Vader did not want to kill Luke, because if he wanted to he would have. I hope me and my opponent can at least agree
that Vader was more powerful than both of these figures. Vader had immense power, and was 8/10ths of Darth Sidious. He babied Luke in lightsaber duels just to turn him to the dark side. He wanted Luke to be his heir. Too bad Ren was not around.
Pain Tolerance: Luke survived the force lightning, but it is listed in ROTJ novels that the Emperor was giving him one-third of his power just to see Luke being tortured. The emperor is cool like that. Also, Kylo Ren would clearly win on this, because he survived a bowcaster, and damage from both Finn and Rey.
How this duel would play out: This duel would play out a lot like it did in the end of Darth Vader vs Luke in Empire. Kylo Ren would start to use his force rage abilities on Luke. Luke would have a solid defense for about 30 seconds, but with Ren's unorthodox style, he would just take strikes at Luke. Luke would be overpowered, and outmatched by Kylo Ren. Vader wanted to tell Luke that he was his father, but Ren would simply kill Luke. Kylo Ren would just be too fast and unpredictable for Luke who has only really had experience fighting a father who is
2. Slow, but powerful
3. Defensive dueling
4. A father who does not want to kill his son
Kylo Ren is
1. Fast and Ferocious
2. Unorthodox lightsaber moves that could puzzle Luke
3. Up in his opponent's face
Luke would be confused, surprised, and outmatched when confronting The Master of The Knights of Ren.
I would like to argue that this wasn't a very special ability. After all, this is simply telekinesis used on a very fast moving object... It shows that he had training, but this isn't so special. In the Clone Wars series, which is confirmed Canon, it shows multiple times that torture has been done. Since midichlorian is shown to be genetic, it would be assumed that Luke would would have a lesser amount than Vader. Even more so for Ren, as he is the son of the child who is shown not to have powerful force abilities. Overall, I'd like to conclude that Kylo had at best has lesser force abilities than a Jedi from the prequels.
Pro's claim that he slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices is a very weak claim. After all, we've seen that Jedi training starts very young, so what did Kylo do? Kill a bunch of 10-year-old's? The Knights of Ren is a very mysterious topic. We can not say anything definitely about them, besides that they look pretty mean. It could just be a posse that Kylo has for himself. We don't know, so we can't say anything about them.
Finn and Rey point:
Pro repeating brings up that Kylo gained power from his wound. It still took him the greater part of a minute to beat him, and still a hit a bit. Remember, Finn isn't a trained swordsman. A First Order stormtrooper, the butt of many jokes, took him down in a few seconds. If Klyo is at least semi-pain tolerant, he should be degraded around to the abitly of that storm trooper. Needless to say, he wasn't.
Well, Pro has dug his own pit. Kylo was passed his prime in TFA, and still, he didn't finish his training. His prime would be earlier than TFA, meaning that some of his training wouldn't have happened yet. He wouldn't even have gone through the TFA battles! Luke's prime would be right after ROTJ.
How this Duel would play out:
I mostly agree, but this would be Kylo's first fight, before the TFA. He'd have no fighting experience, so would try force rage. Luke would go defensive, learning Kylo's style. Meanwhile, Kylo would tire, going defensive. Luke, noting the croosblades, would be careful to avoid him. Also, Luke would be trying to convince Kylo to join the Light side (Not so much as relatives, because I'd hope this fight would be as if they had no relations, but since he was originally good). After the initial force rage, Kylo's limited energy would be spent on dueling Skywalker. He wouldn't be protecting himself verbally. A combination of the two would make Kylo pause for a second, before Luke makes him follow the tradition of male Skywalkers. Disarmed (in all understandings), Kylo would be forced to surrender.
Con says that force telekinesis was not special. You can degrade this ability all you want, but you end up digging a hole for yourself. Luke Skywalker has never displayed this ability in canon sources. Also, you did not counter the assertion of force immobilization which is very effective in torture, and killing people with any method the user wants. I also would like to say that comparing the Jedi in the prequels to Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker is very unfair. The Jedi in the prequels would beat both Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker. Con also never really compares Kylo Ren to Luke Skywalker. All he really says is that since Luke is related to Vader, Luke is stronger in the force. I already responded to this argument in the previous round. I stated that even if Luke has more force potential, you cannot deny that Kylo Ren has better experience and training in the force. Kylo Ren received training from Skywalker, Knights of Ren(probably just killing Jedi), and maybe a few lessons with Snoke. Luke Skywalker in canon sources has only been shown with Yoda two times. Here are the force abilities:
Picking up things(Basic, and lower level force abilities)
Able to see visions of the future
Force Immobilization(Con has dropped this argument)
Force Torture(Used against Finn and Rey)
Force Rage(Luke cannot handle force rage as seen in Empire Strikes Back)
Picking up things(Kylo Ren choking one of his lieutenants)
The State of the Force(Kylo Ren was able to feel the awakening)
I conclude that Kylo Ren would win this point seeing as how Ren has mastered two more abilities than Luke. Luke has only the lower level abilities. Arguments made on Luke's genetics is irrelevant, because he has not displayed these abilities in canon sources. Kylo Ren has displayed all of these abilities in The Force Awakens.
Lightsaber Combat: Con claims that my claim was weak when Kylo Ren slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices. Pro says that Ren probably just killed ten year olds, when in the vision it shows Kylo Ren stabbing someone with a weird weapon. Kylo Ren also was apart of the Jedi Academy. This must mean that this academy must have had force sensitives with him that were his age. Either way, Ren probably got in a lightsaber fight with an Old Luke, or some Jedi students. All we know is that he killed all of them. Also, Con again never compares Luke to Ren. Luke Skywalker never really is seen having that much experience either. All he really does is fight Vader who does not want to kill him. I have already proven this. Kylo Ren on the other hand has had experience fighting with people that actually wanted to kill him such as Finn, Rey, and Jedi Students. When Vader is trying, Luke is usually outmatched. This is seen in The Empire Strikes Back where Vader just starts throwing tons of strikes at Luke. Luke falls in twenty seconds. If Luke can not even handle that, than he would certainly not be able to handle Kylo Ren's unpredictable style.
Finn and Rey:
If Con is going to attack Kylo Ren's abilities with these claims, than he has to address what I said in round two. I have already stated that Kylo Ren lost due to being shot in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster. Now, in TFA, the weapon is stressed has extremely powerful. When Han and Chewie are escaping, Han Solo almost always freaks about how powerful the gun is. It takes one shot to kill someone with it. Kylo Ren took the shot to the stomach, and proceeded in the duel with Finn and Rey. This already displays that Kylo Ren wins the point on pain tolerance. Kylo Ren is also shown moving slower in the duel, and taking his time addressing the wound which I do admit was a poor decision in the long run(hitting the wound). But, Kylo Ren also would have just defeated Rey I believe if he did not try to offer teaching lessons to Rey. Kylo Ren never intended on killing Rey, the same way Vader never intended on killing Luke.
Con claims that I have dug myself a whole, but all I was saying is that Ren would be a lot faster and ferocious if he had not been shot by Chewbacca. The circumstances are undeniably unfair to Kylo Ren in TFA. I bet if Luke was shot by a bowcaster, and had to fight Kylo Ren. Luke Skywalker would easily have been defeated. That is unfair to both sides. That is why I am not going to say to Pro. I am going to specifically compare Luke in A New Hope. That would be very unfair. All I am saying is that Ren would be a lot stronger if he was not in the circumstances he was in.
How this Duel would play out:
I appreciate how Con has considered Luke's personality in this, but Con still has not used any examples from canon sources. Luke Skywalker is shown to be in intense pressure whenever he is confronted with an aggressive duelist. This was shown in the Empire Strikes Back. Darth Vader just started to throw unpredictable strikes causing Luke to fall in 10-20 seconds. This same weakness would be exploited by an already unorthodox Kylo Ren. My opponent already has stated Kylo Ren would use force rage. He fails however to cite any canon sources stating how Luke would respond to force rage. Con says Kylo Ren has limited energy, but never cites TFA for an example of this. I would also like to note that Kylo Ren's pain tolerance would also play a big role in helping him win this fight. Luke might be able to put some jabs with his lightsaber, but that would just strengthen Kylo Ren's force rage increasing his unpredictability. I cannot see Luke winning this duel, because of Luke's experience and face it force orientation. He really would just fall, and be killed by Kylo Ren.
Points that Kylo Ren wins on:
Pain Tolerance(which Con dropped)
Force Potential(which is irrelevant, because it is never displayed in Canon sources)
Thank you Con for accepting this debate. I have enjoyed it as much as you have. I think that Kylo Ren and Luke are really fun to compare.
Sorry about this mistake. I misread what you wrote. It will be difficult now. I assume we mean at their abilities prime in the movies, since we're going only on Canon material, and that would be fairest. This would place Kylo Ren right he was shot, as he there possibly is at his greatest achievement. Placing Luke at ANH would be unfair, as it he has tiny lightsaber experience while Kylo had a large part of his life to. So, it would be fair at the end of ROTJ.
Luke, in Empire, is at his first lightsaber light ever. He loses an arm, but if one looks closely, Luke had a swing at Vader's arm, which didn't do anything because Vader's suit is lightsaber resistant. Imagine if the suit wasn't. The blade would have gone through Vader's arm and chest, doing a upper version of a Darth Maul kill. That was his first duel on a highly trained killing machine. That swing could've ended the battle. A swing on Kylo Ren like that would kill, if not severely maim (although, knowing Kylo, he would hit his arm stump). The point is, Luke did make a nice swing. Before my opponent screams "He didn't mean to kill Luke!", I would like to answer that this may be true, but that answers the question "Why didn't Vader kill Luke immediately". Remember, this was Luke's first battle. He is otherwise inexperience. It would be easier to understand it like this.
Pro shows why the person is better, and Con shows why he is bad. Each variable is considered equal because value of each is unknown, so they are presumed equal.
1. Holds his own for quite a bit versus Vader
2. Makes a serous blow on Vader that would kill someone else
1. Vader wasn't trying to kill him and Luke still lost.
As we see here, the first cancel each other out.
1. Fights and beats Finn with serious injury.
1. Takes much longer to defeat Finn.
2. Finn had a couple of strikes on him.
Visa Versa for Kylo. One would need to change a lot here to prove that Kylo is better.'
This is a last-ditch job. Pro did an excellent job, and I needed to do everything to disprove him. I congratulate him for debating so finely.
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