The Instigator
Clockwork
Pro (for)
Tied
33 Points
The Contender
mongoose
Con (against)
Tied
33 Points

L-M Classic: Clockwork v. Mongoose

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/25/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,675 times Debate No: 9041
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (58)
Votes (12)

 

Clockwork

Pro

This Ultimate Team War debate is part of Round 2 of the LM classic tournament. Information about the tournament, including rules and guidelines, can be found at http://www.debate.org.... If disputes arise on the interpretation of the rules, quotes from the list of Tournament Rules should preferably be used.

The tournament judges for this debate will be feverish and burningpuppies101.

CLOCKWORK

1. Darkseid (Genesis Series)

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.superherodb.com...

Darkseid possesses superhuman strength, stamina and durability slightly surpassing Superman, as well as wielding an advanced intellect. In addition, he wields the Omega Effect, beams fired from his eyes that act either as an extremely destructive concussive force or to destroy almost all matter that it comes in contact with. Anything destroyed by the Omega Effect can be restored by Darkseid at will.

Darkseid has vast powers of telepathy and teleportation; he has moved entire planets. He can transmute matter and has vast mind-control powers, being capable of controlling over three million Daxamites at once.

2. Apocalypse (X-Factor Series)

http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)
http://www.superherodb.com...

The Wikipedia link doesn't seem to be formatting correctly; the correct article is Apocalypse (comics).

Because of his access to Celestial technology, Apocalypse's armor grants him total control over the atomic structure of his body, enabling him to increase his size and shape at will as well as allowing him to transform into nearly anything. He is able to mold his body so that projectiles pass through his body unscathed. Through this shape shifting ability, Apocalypse can gain almost any physical power.

Further powers granted to Apocalypse by Celestial technology include advanced technopathy, energy manipulation, teleportation, accelerated healing factor, and powerful psionic powers. Apocalypse also possesses a superhuman intellect with especially deep knowledge in genetics and biosciences.

3. The Green Lantern (John Stewart) (Green Lantern Series)

http://en.wikipedia.org...(John_Stewart)
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...(weapon)

Again, there are some slight formatting problems with certain Wikipedia links, so a bit of site-searching may be needed to reach the correct page.

While John Stewart is by no means a normal individual, possessing considerable intellect and extraordinary willpower, his true power lies in the Green Lantern Power Ring which he wields. Dubbed "the most powerful weapon in the (DC) universe", the Oan Power Ring enables the user to do a seemingly endless number of things, only limited by the user's willpower and imagination. Stewart, being an architect by trade, usually creates "green-light structures" of deep complexity because the power ring is effected by the personality of the bearer. Additional abilities granted by the ring include flights beyond the speed of light, force field generation, invisibility, and remote access to the Book of Oa, a supernatural database containing a comprehensive history, past and future, of the universe. The full list of powers is quite lengthy and can be accessed by the above links.

4. The Green Arrow (The Green Arrow Series)

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.superherodb.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Green Arrow is renowned as a master archer, capable of firing 29 arrows per minute. His shots do not seem to be bound by common laws of physics, often shooting in dramatic curves and at extraordinary speeds. In addition, he keeps an arsenal of "trick arrows" which include everything from a cryonics arrow to a technology-disabling arrow to a miniature nuclear warhead arrow. A list of such trick arrows can be found in the last link above.

5. Hiro Nakamura (Heroes)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Hiro can manipulate the space-time continuum, enabling him to reverse, accelerate, or slow down time at will. Note that Hiro does not have the ability to stop time, but he rather makes the speed of time relative to his own speed, making time pass millions of times slower. Hiro's powers can be extended to other people; this is, he can prevent the time-stop from affecting people in his immediate vicinity.

My opponent's team:
1. Special Agent Leroy Jethro Gibbs (NCIS)
2. Master Hand ( Crazy Hand if allowed) (Super Smash Bros. series)
3. Ganondorf (Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess)
4. James Bond (Movies)
5. Agent K (Men in Black)

I will allow my opponent to further explain his team abilities next round. For now, I will outline a simple strategy. Further strategies will be outlined int he rounds to come.

ZERO TIME

Both teams have no foreknowledge of their opponent's abilities; they know nothing other than the fact that they have five enemies to defeat. At zero-time, Hiro "stops" time, making sure to leave his fellow team-mates out of the time-stop.

With all Team Mongoose members immobilized, the the Green Lantern uses the power ring to access the Book of Oa to locate the members of Team Mongoose and to learn about their abilities. Darkseid, Apocalypse, or the Lantern teleport Team Clockwork to the locations of Agent Leroy, Crazy Hand, James Bond, and Agent K. These four members of Team Mongoose are easily eliminated due to the fact that they are virtually immobilized and due to the power of Team Clockwork.

The Green Lantern will then use the Book of Oa to locate the Master Sword, Ganondorf's weakness. Team Clockwork retrieves the Master Sword and easily eliminates the incapacitated Ganon.

TEAM MONGOOSE: ELIMATED

Team Clockwork wins.

Any objections will be addressed next round. For now, I leave the debate in the hands of my opponent. I wish him luck and look forward to a good debate.
mongoose

Con

I would first like to ask my opponent a few questions:

Which of your characters are "street level?" I can't tell. They all seem more powerful than street level.

How is Hiro not unlimited? By slowing time down to such an extent, it would take years for my team to take a single step. That is rediculous.

John Stewart is also unlimited. If his imagination is his only "limit," then he would be able to imagine my team dead, and win.

I believe that Darkseid is too close to omnipotent. "Darkseid is among the most powerful New Gods, sometimes depicted with a variety of god-like abilities at his disposal." So he is definitely regarded by all as a God, which is against the rules.

TEAM MONGOOSE:

1. Special Agent Leroy Jethro Gibbs (NCIS)

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://cbsncis.wetpaint.com... Gibbs

Gibbs is the leader of a team of NCIS agents. He was formally a Marine sniper, and was in project Desert Storm. He makes his own coffee. His greatest weakness is that he leaves his front door unlocked. He knows sign language. His gut tells him almost anything when his life or someone else's life is threatened. He can speed up any process to fit a time limit, and always appears whenever and wherever he is needed.

2. Master Hand (Super Smash Bros. Series)

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...

Master Hand can make toys and trophies come to life. He can go through solid objects at will, and shoot lasers and bullets from his fingertips. The lasers also go through solid objects. He is a floating right-hand glove. He is large. See Video 1 for size.

3. Ganondorf Dragmire (Legend of Zelda Series)

http://zelda.wikia.com...

Ganondorf weilds the Triforce of Power, giving him large amounts of strength and magic. He can only be defeated by the Master Sword. He can posses people. He has a sword. He can transform into a giant, boar-like creature. He can create magical barriers.

4. James Bond (Movies)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

James Bond is a special agent. He has gone on many missions. If there is an evasable danger, he evades it.

5. Agent K (Men in Black)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Agent K is a member of a secret group called Men in Black. He is a well respected member. He has very powerful alien technology, including the ability to erase minds and convince people that something different just happened.

STRATEGY:

1.When Hiro attempts to slow down time, James Bond's extreme luck causes for him to mess up, as it seems he has done many times before, and warp his entire team outside of New York City, meaning that TEAM MONGOOSE wins.

2. Gibbs uses his power to speed things up so that the rest of TEAM MONGOOSE is not slowed down (he can't use this on himself).

3. Agent K presses a button on his wrist. This activates a neuralyzer inside the Statue of Liberty, so everybody except for Agent K (having alien technology sunglasses) and Master Hand (having no memory) lose their memories. Agent K convinces TEAM CLOCKWORK that they are tourists, and on their way out of New York City. They exit. TEAM MONGOOSE wins.

4. Master Hand brings to life a lot of toys in a random toy store. This includes Super Man action figures. They charge at TEAM CLOCKWORK. Ganondorf creates a barrier around TEAM CLOCKWORK, such that they must defeat all of the toys to escape. Master Hand also fires lasers at them.

Further sources will be supplied if you do not believe parts of it.
Debate Round No. 1
Clockwork

Pro

In answer to my opponent's questions:

The Green Arrow and Hiro Nakamura are my street-level characters. To quote the rules forum topic:

"Each debater must have at least two street-level characters on their team... people who spend their time dealing with local adversaries AND/OR are essentially on a human level." Examples including Lelouch Lamperougue (http://en.wikipedia.org...), Spider-Man (http://en.wikipedia.org...), and Solid Snake (http://en.wikipedia.org...) are given as examples of street-level characters.

Both Spider-Man and Lelouch possess extraordinary abilities; Solid Snake does not. However, all examples given are characters who are on a reasonably human level (as opposed to Apocalypse or Superman) and are characters who battle local adversaries (such as the Green Goblin in Spider-Man's case) as opposed to extremely powerful, intergalactic enemies.

The Green Arrow plays the part of a vigilante, taking down local villains like Count Vertigo (http://en.wikipedia.org...). Street level characters can still possess significant technology (Snake, Master Chief) and skill, so the significant arsenal and abilities of The Green Arrow do not mean that he is not a street character; quite the opposite.

As for Hiro Nakamura, his powers are reasonably limited, just like Spider-Man's or Lelouch's, and some main antagonists for him in the series include people such as Arthur Petrelli (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

According to the regulations set out, both Hiro and The Green Arrow are clearly street characters.

In response to my opponent's "unlimited" claims:

Hiro's powers are by no means unlimited, as the time-stop is much less effective for those who possess superhuman speed, although they are still considerably slowed. Hiro often runs into a woman called Daphne who holds the power of enhanced speed, and her speed is shown to be comparable to Hiro within the time-stop.

My opponent has further misconstrued the implications of The Green Lantern's ability. The simple fact that the comic book series can hold a plot shows that the Oan power ring has it's limits. On the Power ring link I gave earlier (http://en.wikipedia.org...(weapon)), there is even a whole subsection dedicated to "Limitations".

To go more in depth, the willpower and creativity of the wielder greatly influence the potential of the ring; when The Green Arrow once used Hal Jordan's power ring to create a green-light arrow, the effort put into creating just one arrow left The Green Arrow exhausted. Only a righteous willpower can capably utilize the ring's potential. Furthermore, the ring can only tolerate so much power. When John Stewart tried to reconstruct a destroyed planet in Green Lantern V4 #26, he recieved a message telling him that his "willpower exceeds power ring capabilities." The power ring energy can only manifest itself in certain ways (as already listed in previous sources), so my opponent doesn't have to worry about Stewart "imagining" him dead.

Lastly, my opponent has failed to differentiate a "New God" from a "god" in relation to Darkseid's abilities. Although I can't go into the many intricacies of the DC universe, it stands to mention that the forbidden godlike characters possess abilities that literally enable them to do anything TO anything (i.e. limitless matter and energy creation/destruction), while the New Gods are simply a very powerful set of superhuman beings that cannot die of old age. All New Gods, however, can be killed, and Darkseid has been killed (with difficulty)

OBJECTIONS AGAINST MY OPPONENT

-Several of my opponent's team members abilities are not actual abilities, such as James Bond's "extreme luck" ability and Gibbs' "speed-up time" ability. Such abilities are not listed anywhere in their respective canons or in the provided sources.

-The strategy involving Master Hand reanimating toys is invalid, as this debate is a battle between the five team members, not the five team members and however many allies they can pull in. If Master Hand is permitted to reanimate Superman dolls, then my team wold be allowed to summon it's extensive list of allies, including tens of millions of Daxamites, the Green Lantern Corps and Apocalypse's Horsemen.

-Hiro has never sent himself spiraling through time while attempting to stop time, as the time-stop is a relatively simple outlet of his powers. Hiro's powers have only ever faltered when using more complicated abilities such as teleportation or time travel.

REFUTATION

If Hiro's time-stop is not broken, team Clockwork is practically handed an auto-win. Although the time stop has not been adequately refuted by my opponent, I will now present further strategies that do not involve Hiro stopping time, including defensive measures.

Firstly, we must realize that none of team Mongoose's team members can teleport. Thus, with the time before Team Mongoose would be able to locate team Clockwork, The Green Lantern would have accessed the Book of Oa, which includes everything that has and will happen involving members of the Green Lantern Corps. Thus, before team Mongoose can even locate team Clockwork, the latter will know of all their opponent's strategies. They will accordingly fail to fall into Agent K's trap at the Statue of Liberty.

Once Master Hand reanimates the toys, Darkseid will use his mind-control abilities to possess most (if not all) of the minions. If any SuperMan dolls fail to fall under Darkseid's control, they can easily be eliminated by The Green Arrow's kryptonite arrow or by The Green Lantern's simulated Kryptonite radiations. Ganon's barriers will also fail because Darkseid, Apocalypse, and The Green Lantern can easily teleport all of Team Clockwork outside of such barriers.

Using the Book of Oa, or simply by using the Oan power ring to scan for any life forces in NYC, the three secret agents on my opponent's team are eliminated. Master Hand and Ganondorf remain.

The Green Arrow, Darkseid, and Apocalypse team up on Master Hand and work on subduing Ganondorf while The Green Lantern Teleports off and locates the Master Sword. Judging by the video provided by my opponent, it takes Captain Falcon (http://en.wikipedia.org...), not a particularly strong character, exactly one minute to defeat Master Hand; with the much more powerful members of Team Clockwork on the job, Master Hand's 300 HP would be gone in a matter of seconds. Then Apocalypse or Darkseid can teleport Ganon outside of NYC, or they can fend Ganon off until The Green Lantern returns with the Master Sword to eliminate Ganon.

TEAM MONGOOSE: EILIMINATED

Team Clockwork wins. remember that this above strategy is assuming that the time stop is not effective; my opponent has not yet been able to prove that it wouldn't be effective, so thus both this strategy and the strategy used in R1 by Team Clockwork still need to be refuted by my opponent.
mongoose

Con

I disagree that Hiro's powers are limited. They are insane.

I quote my opponent's comment on his profile: "*Laughs* Not to mention Hiro's time-stop Stewart's Book of Oa = instant win."

He is much to powerful to be street level. Think about it. Him, along with another character with super-speed, against anything, is auto-win. That is cheap, and shouldn't be allowed.

My opponent does not believe that James Bond has extreme luck. This is ridiculous. He hasn't died yet, even though he should have been killed hundreds of times, and has lived through twenty-two movies. He has luck. You can't truly deny it.

I've looked through the NCIS quotes website, but I can't find the quote I'm looking for. I don't remember what episode it was from, so it seems I can't give him his "speed-up" power.

You can't summon the Daxamites, Green Lantern Corps, and Horsemen because they aren't already there. This is like how rats are still in New York City. Toys are still there too, and Master Hand can bring them to life, under his control.

"He also inadvertently teleported to Japan from Texas just as he and Charlie were about to kiss and then could not teleport back, no matter how hard he tried." He can mess up even when he's not trying to use any powers, so he warps TEAM CLOCKWORK away on accident.

Now to refute my opponent's refutations.

"If Hiro's time-stop is not broken, team Clockwork is practically handed an auto-win. Although the time stop has not been adequately refuted by my opponent, I will now present further strategies that do not involve Hiro stopping time, including defensive measures."

Would Hiro be able to have time slowed down already, the instant the battle starts? I believe that it would take him a little bit of time to do so. During this time, Agent K could already press the button on his wrist to wipe clean the memories of TEAM CLOCKWORK, Gibbs, Bond, and Ganondorf, so he can convince your team that they are tourists, who are going to Mexico to spend the holiday. If that fails, he could tell them that they joined my team.

"Firstly, we must realize that none of team Mongoose's team members can teleport. Thus, with the time before Team Mongoose would be able to locate team Clockwork, The Green Lantern would have accessed the Book of Oa, which includes everything that has and will happen involving members of the Green Lantern Corps. Thus, before team Mongoose can even locate team Clockwork, the latter will know of all their opponent's strategies. They will accordingly fail to fall into Agent K's trap at the Statue of Liberty."

http://dc.wikia.com...

Nowhere does it mention anything about the future. Also, knowing what the Statue of Liberty does can't help you. It's like if you were tied to a train track, and you saw a train heading towards you. You know that the train is going to run over you. Does this knowledge let you escape? No.

Also, Ganondorf can teleport. At the beginning of Video 1, he teleports and turns into Beast Ganon.

"Once Master Hand reanimates the toys, Darkseid will use his mind-control abilities to possess most (if not all) of the minions. If any SuperMan dolls fail to fall under Darkseid's control, they can easily be eliminated by The Green Arrow's kryptonite arrow or by The Green Lantern's simulated Kryptonite radiations. Ganon's barriers will also fail because Darkseid, Apocalypse, and The Green Lantern can easily teleport all of Team Clockwork outside of such barriers."

You can't mind-control things without minds. It doesn't work that way. Toys don't have minds. They bend to Master Hand's will, whatever that is.

"Using the Book of Oa, or simply by using the Oan power ring to scan for any life forces in NYC, the three secret agents on my opponent's team are eliminated. Master Hand and Ganondorf remain."

So by scanning NYC with a power ring, my agents are dead? What? That makes no sense.

"The Green Arrow, Darkseid, and Apocalypse team up on Master Hand and work on subduing Ganondorf while The Green Lantern Teleports off and locates the Master Sword. Judging by the video provided by my opponent, it takes Captain Falcon (http://en.wikipedia.org......), not a particularly strong character, exactly one minute to defeat Master Hand; with the much more powerful members of Team Clockwork on the job, Master Hand's 300 HP would be gone in a matter of seconds. Then Apocalypse or Darkseid can teleport Ganon outside of NYC, or they can fend Ganon off until The Green Lantern returns with the Master Sword to eliminate Ganon."

Ah, you forget Master Hand's master strategy. He hides in the ground and shoots lasers at you. How do you destroy him now? Also, simply having the Master Sword does not eliminate Ganondorf. You have to stab it through his chest, repeatedly.

"TEAM MONGOOSE: EILIMINATED"

TEAM CLOCKWORK: ON VACATION IN MEXICO

"Team Clockwork wins. remember [sic] that this above strategy is assuming that the time stop is not effective; my opponent has not yet been able to prove that it wouldn't be effective, so thus both this strategy and the strategy used in R1 by Team Clockwork still need to be refuted by my opponent."

Team Mongoose wins. Remember that Hiro can't stop time entirely, and he must think before doing so. K can press the button before he does this. That is all I need to win.
Debate Round No. 2
Clockwork

Pro

CONCERNING HIRO'S POWERS

My opponent's exaggerations on the unreliability and randomness of Hiro's powers are taken out of context. Mongoose quotes the Wiki article with "He also inadvertently teleported to Japan from Texas just as he and Charlie were about to kiss and then could not teleport back, no matter how hard he tried", but fails to mention that this was very early on in the series. The same article goes on to say "By 'The Hard Part', Hiro has improved his skill in teleportation, as he uses it twice without traveling any discernible distance through time." Further notice that, because extending his powers to other people requires a greater use of concentration, all falterings including the above mentioned incident have only resulted in Hiro himself being whisked away.

CONCERNING MASTER HAND'S POWERS

My opponent has falsely attributed Master Hand with the power to reanimate toys and trophies. Master Hand seems to have the power to do such in Super Smash Bros.: Brawl, but in fact, Master Hand was merely being controlled by Tabuu (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...), and Tabuu was the one with the powers of reanimation. reference the first video to see Tabuu channeling and controlling Master Hand using the chains of light. ("Ganondorf's body hits the puppeteered Master Hand, thus breaking him free of his Chains of Light. Master Hand also charges at Tabuu, but to no avail. Tabuu uses his Off Waves to turn everyone into a trophy as soon as they approach.")

Furthermore, any toys or trophies reanimated by Tabuu are not even bent to do Master Hand/Tabuu's will, because Tabuu/Master Hand does not possess the ability to turn trophies into living beings. Because of this, this power is offensively used to turn sentient characters into trophies, not the other way around. Tabuu never reanimates any characters he turns into trophies; characters are only freed from their trophy-state by one of King DeDeDe's badges.

CONCERNING THE "NO-LIMITS" RULE

My opponent is intent on focusing on Hiro's "unlimited" abilities, even though I have shown that his abilities are significantly limited, and most teams (perhaps even my opponent's, if he looks hard enough) have members capable of either escaping the time-stop or or super speed. My opponent himself has also pointed out that Hiro's powers are limited by protesting that it takes some time for him to activate his abilities.

However, I would also like to take this time to point out the irregularities in the "unlimited abilities" clause in the original UTW rules. As I see it, the no-limits rule was created (before the tournament) to ensure that no "godlike" characters were used, similar to the "restricted characters" section in the tourney rules. Indeed, I could protest that Agent K has unlimited "alien technology" abilities or that Master Hand has unlimited "laser-firing abilities". However, this is not very well in the spirit of the debate, as other rules in place ensure that

A recurring element of my opponent's attack strategy is Agent K deploying a neuralgic toxin inside of the Statue of Liberty, causing my team to lose their memories. There are several eyebrow-raising problems with this tactic.

Firstly, there being no prep time, how did Agent K know that my team would be in the statue of liberty, and how did he have any time to set up the device in the Statue?

Secondly and perhaps more importantly, why is my team in the Statue of Liberty in the first place? To quote LM's thread:
---------------------------------------------------------
"Where do both teams start, anyways?"

"I'll let both debaters decide that. Though if there can be no mutual understanding, both teams will begin the battle on opposite ends of the battlefield (on solid ground presumably)."
----------------------------------------------------------

My opponent made zero attempt to settle a starting point before he accepted the debate or posted his first round; therefore, we must assume (in accordance with the rules thread) that both teams are on separate ends of the battle field, in a location that is initially unknown to their opponents. There is no reason why my team would be in the Statue of Liberty at all.

DEFENSE

I will now defend myself against any points that my opponent has made that have not already been covered above.

"My opponent does not believe that James Bond has extreme luck. This is ridiculous. He hasn't died yet, even though he should have been killed hundreds of times, and has lived through twenty-two movies. He has luck. You can't truly deny it." - Although James Bond does seem to fall into (and escape) some extraordinary circumstances quite often, I cannot find any source that attributes this to any sort of controllable ability. We must then assume that Bond's luck is either a plot device or a result of his extensive experience as an intelligence agent.

"You can't summon the Daxamites, Green Lantern Corps, and Horsemen because they aren't already there. This is like how rats are still in New York City."- Noted. See above; neither can you.

"Nowhere does it mention anything about the future." (In regards to the Book of Oa)

For some reason I can't seem to find the quote on the Green Lantern Page, but here are several relevant sources:

(http://en.wikipedia.org...) and (http://glspotlight.blogspot.com...) - Some time later, new recruits of the Green Lantern Corps were shown the Book of Oa, a book kept by the Guardians of the Universe which told tales of Green Lanterns past, present, and future.

(http://www.comicbookresources.com...) - Sinestro's hunger for knowledge led him to visit Oa frequently, studying from the Great Book of Oa, which told the complete past, present and future of the Green Lantern Corps.

"Also, Ganondorf can teleport. At the beginning of Video 1, he teleports and turns into Beast Ganon."- Very well, but teleporting does little good if Ganon does not know the locations of his enemies; and once Ganon does find Team Clockwork, Darkseid or Apocalypse can simply teleport away again.

"So by scanning NYC with a power ring, my agents are dead? What? That makes no sense."- My apologies for the misunderstanding. I simply used the power ring to locate your secret agents, who, being secret agents, were presumably hidden. Any one of the first four of my team members could then take down the operatives with ease.

QUESTION

You stated earlier: "Ah, you forget Master Hand's master strategy. He hides in the ground and shoots lasers at you. How do you destroy him now?" Is there any chance you could show a video or other evidence showing Master Hand being capable of shooting lasers underground? It seems to be a rather stange claim consideirng it mentioned nowhere in your current sources.

Also, considering your team's heavy use of Agent K but insistence that I will not be able to defeat Ganon, could you provide some specific method in which you plan to use Ganondorf?

NEW STRATEGY 1

Step 1: The Green Lantern uses the Oan Power Ring to scan for any significant lifeforces in NYC, thereby locating the members of Team Mongoose.

Step 2: Darkseid uses his incredible powers of teleportation to cast the members of Team Mongoose into the sun. All Team Mongoose members have left NYC: Team Clockwork wins.

NEW STRATEGY 2

Step 1: Locate Team Mongoose members using Power Ring.

Step 2: Darkseid, Apocalypse, and The Green Lantern fend off Ganon and Master Hand while The Green Arrow uses a cryonics arrow to freeze Mongoose's secret agents

Step 3: Darkseid uses the Omega Effect on Ganon and Master Hand.

Step 4. Any members of Team Clockwork can kill the now-frozen secret agents.

That'll do for now.

Back to you, Mongoose. It's been fun so far.
mongoose

Con

CONCERNING HIRO

"Further notice that, because extending his powers to other people requires a greater use of concentration, all falterings including the above mentioned incident have only resulted in Hiro himself being whisked away."

I would think that this would make it easier for him to mess up, because it is harder to do. Also, just because you do something twice without fail does not mean that you can do it all the time without fail.

CONCERNING MASTER HAND

See Video 1? He brought Yoshi to life.

CONCERNING "NO-LIMITS"

Okay then. I guess I'll just have to do everything before you have enough time to think.

My opponent's entire argument about Agent K is absurd. The memory erasing occurs throughout all of New York City and part of New Jersey, not just inside the Statue of Liberty. Did you watch the video?

As for Ganondorf's teleportation, it can let him escape his opponents if they find him.

I would use Ganondorf to use his sword and black magic to try to defeat your team. I don't know how specific I would make this. I could also transform into Beast Ganon and run into you repeatedly. Notably, the Master Sword can only be used by the good guys.

Master Hand can go through solid objects.

http://www.debate.org...

He can also fire lasers through solid objects.

http://www.debate.org...

"NEW STRATEGY 1

Step 1: The Green Lantern uses the Oan Power Ring to scan for any significant lifeforces in NYC, thereby locating the members of Team Mongoose.

Step 2: Darkseid uses his incredible powers of teleportation to cast the members of Team Mongoose into the sun. All Team Mongoose members have left NYC: Team Clockwork wins."

You are not allowed to teleport members outside of New York City.

"NEW STRATEGY 2

Step 1: Locate Team Mongoose members using Power Ring.

Step 2: Darkseid, Apocalypse, and The Green Lantern fend off Ganon and Master Hand while The Green Arrow uses a cryonics arrow to freeze Mongoose's secret agents

Step 3: Darkseid uses the Omega Effect on Ganon and Master Hand.

Step 4. Any members of Team Clockwork can kill the now-frozen secret agents."

I use Gibbs to snipe the Green Arrow when he is in range. Also, the Omega Effect wouldn't work on Ganondorf, as you must defeat him with the Master Sword.

Or, I could use my strategy:

Step 1. Agent K presses the button.

Step 2: TEAM CLOCKWORK, Gibbs, Bond, and Ganondorf lose their memories.

Step 3: Agent K convinces TEAM CLOCKWORK that they are tourists, who are going on vacation in Mexico.

Step 4: Watch TEAM CLOCKWORK go to Mexico.

That will do for now.

This has been fun.
Debate Round No. 3
Clockwork

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for an interesting debate, and would like to remind him that, in accordance with UTW rules, he cannot post new arguments in his final round as I will not be able to respond to them.

I would like to knowledge that I, never having seen either of the Men in Black movies, misunderstood the nature of the neuralizer, and thus, through my rudimentary etymological knowledge, misunderstood it to be a chemical agent as opposed to a visual light that erases memory. However, the nature of the neuralizer actually makes for an easier Team Clockwork victory.

Firstly, Darkseid and Apocalypse possess highly developed psychic powers and all attempted alterations or assaults on their minds have failed miserably, even when psychics such as Jean Grey (http://en.wikipedia.org...) and Professor X (http://en.wikipedia.org...) against Apocalypse, have failed miserably. With such strong defenses against mind manipulation, the neuralyzer would fail to work against Darkseid and Apocalypse. That still doesn't stand as the only obstacle in my opponent's strategy.

(http://stubbornfacts.wordpress.com...) "Once the neuralizer has flashed there is a window of around 30 seconds in which an official can verbally tell the spectator what they have missed. Therefore, in doing this they can set up a false memory of what happened in the time that was erased."

If Team Mongoose's plan is to work, they must immediately deploy the neuralizer, and Agent K must be able to get to the opposite side of NYC and tell my team that they are tourists returning to Mexico. NYC is obviously of a considerable length, and Agent K does not know where my team members are. The very idea that he could manage to accomplish the strategy contradicts common sense.

We must assume that the neuralizer is set to erase several hours (or perhaps a day or two) of my susceptible team member's memories, as that is what it was set to in the movies (assuming we couldn't have the entire NYC population with a lifetime's worth of memories gone) and because there is no prep time during which the period of the memory wipe could be changed. Darkseid and Apocalypse could easily ask Hiro to stop time and could then clue the neuralized members in before proceeding as above.

Even if we incorrectly assume that all five members have their memories wiped, if a mass of enemies come in attacking Team Clockwork, they would obviously respond to such attacks and Team Mongoose would be easily decimated as already demonstrated.

CONCERNING HIRO'S POWERS

"I would think that this would make it easier for him to mess up, because it is harder to do. Also, just because you do something twice without fail does not mean that you can do it all the time without fail."

Hiro's powers very in difficulty, with the list from easiest to hardest being (judging by TV series):

-Area-specific time manipulation
-Stopping time
-Stopping time, with others chosen to be left out of the time-stop
-Teleportation
-Teleportation with others included
-Time travel
-Time travel with others included

Hiro is least likely to falter when dealing with the lesser powers, and when he does falter, the effects are usually related to the lesser powers. If Hiro can teleport twice without problems, it can be reasonably assumed that he can also stop time with little mishap, especially considering that Hiro has never faltered in the way that you implied within the span of the series. His accidental screw-ups, to my knowledge, have never been extended to effect other people.

CONCERNING MASTER HAND'S POWERS

"See Video 1? He brought Yoshi to life."

Very well, but because Yoshi (and presumably all the other playable SSB characters) moved around after reanimation of their own accord, we must assume that they do in fact have brains (in contrast with your previous argument) and we return to the strategy where Darkseid or Apocalypse mind-control your reanimated Supermen, using Kryptonite from the Oan ring simulations or The Green Arrow's arrows to level off any remaining Supermen, although it is an unsupported stretch to assume that any toy store would have over three million Superman toys in stock.

My opponent claims that Master Hand can hide inside of and shoot lasers through solid objects. Though this canonically-unsupported argument is easily attributed to an effect known as "polygon prioritization" and is easily recognized by anyone who programs or plays video games, Master Hand could still easily be eliminated once located, as The Omega Effect can travel through matter.

IN RESPONSE:

"You are not allowed to teleport members outside of New York City."

Although you failed to provide a source, and I can't find anything close to this in the rules, I'll let it slide; most of my other strategies have yet to be adequately refuted.

"As for Ganondorf's teleportation, it can let him escape his opponents if they find him."

This is easily countered in a number of ways; The Green Lantern could scan NYC again to locate Ganon, after which he would be aerial-bombed by Apocalypse or remote-attacked by Darkseid's Omega Effect. Running away endlessly isn't a likely way to do any damage against my teammates, either.

"Also, the Omega Effect wouldn't work on Ganondorf, as you must defeat him with the Master Sword."

Incorrect; although my team would, as already stated, have little trouble finding the Master Sword by means of the Book of Oa or by aerial view. I only need the Master Sword if I wish to KILL Ganondorf; the Omega Effect would eliminate Ganon from existence.

CONCLUSION

UTW debates involve both Pro and Con making the positive prima facie statement that their team can defeat their opponent's team; thus, the burden of proof lies on both participants to prove that claim.

The majority of my opponent's arguments fail to prove anything. His arguments are stretched to the possibility of chance by fault of his weak arguments. Such arguments include "Hiro might mess up the time stop" and "Agent K might be able to push the button before Hiro stops time". However, this is a debate and not a roulette table; my opponent must show why his team WILL win, instead of why his team MIGHT win. His two arguments that didn't involve ridiculous stretches of luck have been conclusively negated.

My opponent has pushed these barriers throughout the debate, often contradicting himself in the process. He has failed to show how a team which is (physically) dependent on Master Hand and Ganondorf can defeat such titans such as Apocalypse and Darkseid. Apocalypse alone has surpassed the powers of the Harbinger (http://en.wikipedia.org...), who was able to defend himself against Cable and the Avengers at the same time. Darkseid has bested Superman by a long shot time and time again. The two giants together could easily combine their powers to eliminate the weak (see opponent's video) Master Hand and find the Master Sword to defeat Ganon, and my opponent has thus far dedicated zero time to arguing otherwise.

The burden of poof has failed to be satisfied by my opponent, and the arguments that have stood have been hopelessly refuted. The outcome of this battle is clear; vote Pro. Thank you.
mongoose

Con

"Firstly, Darkseid and Apocalypse possess highly developed psychic powers and all attempted alterations or assaults on their minds have failed miserably, even when psychics such as Jean Grey (http://en.wikipedia.org......) and Professor X (http://en.wikipedia.org......) against Apocalypse, have failed miserably. With such strong defenses against mind manipulation, the neuralyzer would fail to work against Darkseid and Apocalypse. That still doesn't stand as the only obstacle in my opponent's strategy."

This isn't mind manipulation. This is simply erasing it. It wouldn't be the same, as manipulation would involve someone else actively changing something. The manipulation doesn't begin until after they have lost their memories.

"If Team Mongoose's plan is to work, they must immediately deploy the neuralizer, and Agent K must be able to get to the opposite side of NYC and tell my team that they are tourists returning to Mexico. NYC is obviously of a considerable length, and Agent K does not know where my team members are. The very idea that he could manage to accomplish the strategy contradicts common sense."

Or, he could use the neuralyzer over and over before your team can regain their memories. So, he can get in his flying car and search for them. Between Gibb's gut, which can help him have an idea of where they need to go, and Bond's luck, they should be able to find them after some point of time. They would proceed to convince TEAM CLOCKWORK that they need to go to Mexico.

"Even if we incorrectly assume that all five members have their memories wiped, if a mass of enemies come in attacking Team Clockwork, they would obviously respond to such attacks and Team Mongoose would be easily decimated as already demonstrated."

Ah, but TEAM CLOCKWORK wouldn't identify TEAM MONGOOSE as enemies. They wouldn't be attacking. He'd go up to them and say, "Hey, you're tourists, and your life's dream is to go to Mexico and stay there." They wouldn't put up a fight, because they aren't in danger. While they would lose the battle, they would get to enjoy a life in Mexico.

"Very well, but because Yoshi (and presumably all the other playable SSB characters) moved around after reanimation of their own accord, we must assume that they do in fact have brains (in contrast with your previous argument) and we return to the strategy where Darkseid or Apocalypse mind-control your reanimated Supermen, using Kryptonite from the Oan ring simulations or The Green Arrow's arrows to level off any remaining Supermen, although it is an unsupported stretch to assume that any toy store would have over three million Superman toys in stock."

Actually, Master Hand would still be controlling Yoshi. They don't move of their own accord, they move to the player's accord, which, in this case, would be Master Hand.

"My opponent claims that Master Hand can hide inside of and shoot lasers through solid objects. Though this canonically-unsupported argument is easily attributed to an effect known as "polygon prioritization" and is easily recognized by anyone who programs or plays video games, Master Hand could still easily be eliminated once located, as The Omega Effect can travel through matter."

Master Hand can go through matter. There is no reason to believe otherwise. You would have a hard time locating him (except for the fact that there are lasers coming from that point, oh well).

"Although you failed to provide a source, and I can't find anything close to this in the rules, I'll let it slide; most of my other strategies have yet to be adequately refuted."

Found it.

"15) Teleporting out of NYC is prohibited."

"Incorrect; although my team would, as already stated, have little trouble finding the Master Sword by means of the Book of Oa or by aerial view. I only need the Master Sword if I wish to KILL Ganondorf; the Omega Effect would eliminate Ganon from existence."

Although Ganondorf has been removed from existence many times, it is still not fun, and would leave him defeated.

"The majority of my opponent's arguments fail to prove anything. His arguments are stretched to the possibility of chance by fault of his weak arguments. Such arguments include 'Hiro might mess up the time stop' and 'Agent K might be able to push the button before Hiro stops time'. However, this is a debate and not a roulette table; my opponent must show why his team WILL win, instead of why his team MIGHT win. His two arguments that didn't involve ridiculous stretches of luck have been conclusively negated."

The first one I have decided is too much a stretch into the unknown to work. The second one should work. How long does it take to press a button on your wrist? About 1/100 of a second or so. My opponent has conceded that Hiro's powers take some time to use. "My opponent himself has also pointed out that Hiro's powers are limited by protesting that it takes some time for him to activate his abilities." Agent K would press the button first, so Hiro would forget what he was doing, and not use his power.

"My opponent has pushed these barriers throughout the debate, often contradicting himself in the process. He has failed to show how a team which is (physically) dependent on Master Hand and Ganondorf can defeat such titans such as Apocalypse and Darkseid. Apocalypse alone has surpassed the powers of the Harbinger (http://en.wikipedia.org......), who was able to defend himself against Cable and the Avengers at the same time. Darkseid has bested Superman by a long shot time and time again. The two giants together could easily combine their powers to eliminate the weak (see opponent's video) Master Hand and find the Master Sword to defeat Ganon, and my opponent has thus far dedicated zero time to arguing otherwise."

For one thing, Apocalypse and Darkseid are both EVIL, and thus cannot wield the Master Sword, it being the Blade of Evil's Bane. For another, Agent K's mind-erasing device would work.

"The burden of poof has failed to be satisfied by my opponent, and the arguments that have stood have been hopelessly refuted. The outcome of this battle is clear; vote Pro. Thank you."

You say that I have not met the BoP, when you have given no reason for Hiro's powers to work before Agent K's. There is no reason to assume that Hiro would have stopped time before Agent K has pressed the button. There is nothing my opponent can do against the Statue of Liberty. Clearly, the losing team is the one partying in Mexico, in some kind of non-victory party. The winning team is the one still in NYC. Vote CON. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 4
58 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Multi_Pyrocytophage 5 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
Oddly enough, both debaters voted for themselves.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
mongoose, incredible offense against god-level characters.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Well, the team matters, but the more important thing is what you do with it.

mongoose's only winning point here was that his opponent didn't correctly counter Agent K until way too late to be effective.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Considering Clockwork's team, it's surprising that mongoose won. Well done mongoose.

The more I read these, the more I think that the actual team doesn't matter.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
<"Conduct: Tie -- but of them were alright...no douchebaggery present.">

Pretty bad typo on my part -- "but" should obviously say "both."
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Mongoose rather. @.@
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Looks like it.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
A win for mongeese then?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD from patsox:

Conduct: Tie -- but of them were alright...no douchebaggery present.

Spelling and grammar: Both of them had mistakes here and there -- but overall, one person didn't really stand out from the other, so I'm going to say they tied here, as well.

Convincing arguments: I thought both sides put forth entertaining arguments -- but I think they both had holes in them, as well (I can elaborate on this if necessary); however, I found mongoose's arguments to be much more creative, so I'm going to give this to him. As for the sources, in the thread about judging paradigms, I said this: <"All else being equal, it'll go to the person who gets the points for arguments,"> and, well, I thought they were pretty close to equal, so in accordance with my paradigm, mongoose gets sources, too.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
SOURCES: This was the hardest section to call in this debate. Traditional UTW rules say the category should be an extension of 'arguments' but I have always felt that sources can play an important part in these debates. Both sides had some serious source fails in this debate but I felt Pro had more and they affected his strategies and his team's abilities (and even character selection).

After much deliberation, I decided to split the SOURCES category and give one of the two points available to Con. This may be controversial and not work in my favour for 'best judge' but I honestly feel it was the fairest decision to make in this category. Mongoose did not deserve two points here but he did deserve something.
12 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Multi_Pyrocytophage 5 years ago
Multi_Pyrocytophage
ClockworkmongooseTied
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Vote Placed by shadow835 6 years ago
shadow835
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Vote Placed by Clockwork 7 years ago
Clockwork
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Vote Placed by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
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Vote Placed by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
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Vote Placed by SaintNick 7 years ago
SaintNick
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Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
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Vote Placed by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
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Vote Placed by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
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Vote Placed by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
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