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L_M Classic (UTW Tournament) Grand Finale. Feverish V Puck

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/4/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,969 times Debate No: 12486
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After the months of waiting, after the excitement, the upset, the intrigue and of course the endless procrastination, we have at last reached the historic final debate of this remarkable and gruelling tournament.

A pallid sun rises and a cold wind blows through the deserted streets of indestructible New York. Soon this urban jungle will become the battlefield for ten fictional warriors, whose exploits will be verbally animated by my opponent and myself.

For those with no idea as to what is going on here, this is the long awaited final round of a tournament begun by that mysterious figure of DDO folklore, the Logical_Master himself.

Details of this tournament can be found here:

It takes the format of Ultimate Team War debates, a style introduced to the site by the user MTGandP. For a brief description, see here:

Greetings and best of luck to my opponent, the well respected Puck.


Up until now, I have been sticking with my original team selection but my opponent's team is so awesome and his debate skills so devastating, that I have been forced to pull out all the stops and make two substitutions in my team. This is approved by the rules and by Con in PMs.

The rules stated that we could choose a potential sub from each of our previous debate opponent's selections. I have chosen to use Spawn, who was originally used by my first opponent Patsox and Sentry, as used by my semi final opponent Yraelz.

This is my team:

1. Predator (street-level).

The Predator alien on my team is of the same race and has the same basic weapons and armour as seen in the Predator films and in the expanded universe.

However as this is a war he has a few items of warrior or military level equipment but not some of the most powerful and not more than he could reasonably carry.

In addition to equipment issued to all Predators, I will specify that my character is also armed with a point defense system, multi-missile system, shoulder mounted plasma caster.

2. Boba Fett (street-level).

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away... Ok, short version: everyone knows the galaxy's favourite Bounty Hunter right?

He is at the peak of human fitness and ability with amazing armour and weaponry. Plus his ship Slave 1 can be controlled by his voice commands.

3. Sun Wukong aka The Monkey King aka Monkey.

The spirit of Monkey is irrepressible. He has super-human strength and speed, flies on a magic cloud, is a powerful magician, possesses a magical staff that can change size, fight independently and more. He has single-handedly defeated armies of gods and demons, all methods of execution have failed against him, he can see through what others can not, has a powerful range of abilities associated with his body hair and much, much more.

4. Spawn.

Undead anti hero Al Simmons is one bad MF. His necroplasmic powers include superhuman strength, speed, agility, senses and durability as well as ectoplasmic manipulation and various magical powers including flight and energy blasts. He's virtually immortal but, to clarify, I am using him after he has renounced his temporary godly status.

5. Sentry.

The Robert Reynolds character is often described as Marvel's answer to Superman, but of course they had to take it one step further. Sentry has the power of one million exploding suns, his molecules move ahead of the normal timeline and he is virtually indestructible.

My opponents team:

1) Deadpool
2) Sage
3) Spiral
4) Mr Sinister
5) Engineer



Okay, my opponent's team has some awesome abilities but one crucial category where my guys definitely have the edge is speed.

I'm not going to use Yraelz's intriguing physics argument for Sentry attacking before the battle begins but I am going to say that he's gonna react and move way sooner than anyone else.

Now Sentry is probably my most powerful character but he's also extremely mentally and emotionally unstable, therefore potentially highly vulnerable to psychic attacks from Team Con.

Bearing that in mind I've decided to launch a full on kamikaze attack with Sentry from the word go.

It is established that Sentry holds his molecules together within his body by sheer force of willpower. In his absolute loyalty to me, he will make the ultimate sacrifice and allow his body to be ripped apart as he unleashes the full power of a million supernovas in an exploding arc at Team Con.

Flying above the city he will be able to locate and obliterate them in an instant.

Assuming there are any survivors (Puck will have to explain how there possibly could be), Spawn and Monkey are no slouches either with speed and reaction times far surpassing those of Team Con.

These two virtually indestructible characters will launch themselves into the aftermath of the solar megablast.

Spawn will target the immensely powerful Mr. Sinister (or his charred remains) and should be able to rip him to shreds and crush him like a jellybean with necroplasmic energy before he reacts.

Monkey will go for Engineer, but even as he leaps, he will already be ripping off chest hairs to create clones of himself, a fractal multiplication of Monkey Kings will engulf and eliminate Angela, (should she have survived Sentry's attack) and in fact rapidly engulf most of NYC.

Spiral should certainly be dead but just in case, Fett will be targeting her with his ship. Slave 1 will accelerate at full velocity towards the honorary X woman with laser cannons blasting and simply crash on top of her, where it will presumably explode.

Lastly in the unlikely event of Deadpool surviving this far, Pred and Fett will stalk him with the respect a fellow hunter deserves and fill his sardonic hide with holes.

I'll leave it there for now and eagerly await my opponent's response to this onslaught that must surely have overwhelmed his team.

Thank you.


Congratulations to Feverish on making the final (finally)! A job well done. Feverish has already posted the links to the debate rules and format, so let's begin. As rightly stated, my team is unchanged from its inception.


Mr Sinister:


A1. Sentry.

Sentry is an interesting character. Feverish states the ‘million suns' line as a basis for his power level however there are several issues with this. Firstly it is a singularly undocumented power level apart from those who talk about it i.e. it exists in Marvel Universe as word of mouth only. Sentry's powers are from the sun, yes, (he psionically absorbs if stable) - his power as Feverish lists is highly questionable however. It appears to be an artifact of speech much like "man of steel" is for Superman.

What evidence is there for this? As noted such power has never been shown - Marvel themselves don't appear to agree with this power level either. Official Marvel stats below. Note energy power is slightly above average (3 - for a frame of reference, Cyclops is 7).

The burden is upon Feverish to show he is indeed capable of such power at the start of the battle. If he wishes to destroy Sentry, by all means it is welcome. I'll argue defeating Sentry based upon Feverish's arguments next round, if applicable.

A2. Catch me if you can.

Feverish's opening argument relies upon my team being static upon Sentry's arrival, static since the start of the battle. Not the case.

Upon the start of the battle, Spiral teleports the team to a sealed location within the city. Sinister throws up force fields congruent to the start of the battle, Engineer goes defensive. Team are gone by the time Sentry can even arrive. Feverish thinks Sentry can both find and engage my team before I can act. I again disagree. Spiral's teleport ability has been shown to be instant. At the start of the battle they are gone.

B1. Let the real games begin.

Upon the new location, Engineer grants each member with nanite skin.

Begins clone production. Uses plans from Sinister to construct a Cerebro.

Spiral upon arrival shields the team. They are unable to be found.

Spiral teleports out both clones and nanite swarms - nanites being molecule sized machines. Clones activate defences.

A teleport sees Deadpool appear on a rooftop, Sage's rail rifle at the ready.

More nanites and clones go out, forming weapons platforms that patrol the upper limit of sky.

Sinister enters the psychic plane. Granting him supreme ability over the physical and mental, additionally boosted by the power of Cerebro.

Sage goes defensive.

B2. First contact.

Some of Engineer's clones seek out Monkey. Clone wars! Unfortunately for Feverish, Monkey's clones disappear if hit. [1] Engineer's clones have activated two abilities:

Monkey's clones will disappear before being able to strike, leaving only the King himself. Additionally Monkey will not use his hairs if threatened by fire. [1] Clones use long range explosives, flame throwers etc., while closing in.

If Monkey attempts to evade he simply runs the risk of encountering any number of molecular nanite swarms flooding the battle arena and the same effect will be had as when a clone actually gains contact, or Monkey attempts to fight. Namely, nanites will swarm over Monkey himself, covering his body, denying him use of his hairs. In addition covering his mouth denying him use of his verbal component for magic. [1] Monkey has also been stopped by severing his lute bone (larynx) which the nanites promptly do. [1] Spiral teleports Monkey to one of the waiting weapons platforms that promptly elevate him out of the height limit for the battle.

B3. Sinister engages Spawn. Spawn has a susceptibility to certain metal attacks of which Sinister is able to emulate.

Sinister systematically destroys Spawn's memories, his mind, making him a shell for which Sinister can ply his, well, sinister trade. Spawn is remade, simply and quickly shifting outside the battle arena at Sinister's command. Should this fail, Sinister resorts to more crude methods, using the advantages of the psychic plane to rip his head off.

B4. Mopping up the street.

Feverish hopes to gain advantages through the use of his street levellers' spacecraft. Once again I will have to disappoint him. Engineer is the bane of opposing technology and puts her abilities to good use. Upon the first appearance of either ship they are made quickly redundant.

Contact with the ships will additionally see them stripped of all metal components.

Predator and Fett are taken out by any number of the weapon platforms, clones, nanite swarms, Deadpool shooting, Sinister mind destruction/commands to sleep...

[1] Monkey. Wu Ch'eng-en. Penguin Classics.
Debate Round No. 1


Thanks to Puck for his stimulating response, it's a real pleasure to finally have this final underway.

Just as a quick note, my final picture source in round 1 was supposed to be this one:

These pictures are of course intended to be humorous 'artistic' interpretations of the situations my arguments describe and the degree of realism varies.


A1. Sentry.

Puck states that the common description of Sentry as having "the power of one million exploding suns" is merely a linguistic device, comparing it to the standard description of Superman as the "man of steel".

The problem with such an assertion is that these are both pretty accurate descriptions of the characters, the only hyperbole in either description being the use of the word "of".

Superman is not actually made of steel, but his body does have many of the properties of steel and if you punch him, it will be like punching solid steel. Similarly, Sentry does not have the power "of" the exploding suns, but he does have power equivalent to them.

I am intrigued by the fact that Puck's link to supposed proof of how "Marvel themselves" rate Sentry's power level, is in fact a link to a jpeg hosted on imageshack. I don't understand why Puck hasn't provided a link to an actual site where the legitimacy of the stats could possibly be verified. I'm not suggesting that my opponent has doctored the image himself, but as presented, we have no way of discerning it's origin or reliability.

I know that on some sites such stats are voted on by ordinary users, and in any case, Marvel is not one distinct entity. Many different writers have written the different storylines and may portray characters somewhat differently. We must consider all the information available rather than appealing to the authority of one opinion.

Consult any online description of Sentry and one will find that he is unanimously confirmed as one of the most powerful characters in the Marvel universe. The million exploding suns reference is so widely agreed upon that it is presented as clear fact in an uncontested wikipedia article.

We know that Sentry "possesses powers of tremendous energy projection, from both his hands and eyes, capable of harming even the Hulk (in his Green Scar incarnation), who has withstood the equivalent of solar flares unharmed" and that "Most of Sentry's mental abilities are used to maintain his physical form." We also know that "He generally greatly restrains his full power" which could explain any under-rating of his energy projection abilities.

It is true that Sentry has never executed the type of kamikaze attack that I have him performing here, but it is clearly well within his power range to do so. In this instance, he relinquishes the effort of holding together his molecules and unleashes them in a huge burst of energy.

Sentry's power has been shown to overload the Absorbing Man, he has battled gods such as Thor and gained the upper hand and even torn gods to pieces in the case of Ares. According to Spiderman, he once battled Galactus to a standstill and Norman Osborn describes him as a "human H bomb". Marvel wikia goes on to say that it is "conceivable that Sentry's powers are practically limitless, and may even rival those of the Thor's, Silver Surfer's and Phoenix's".

Puck knows as well as I do that Sentry is capable of pulling off this attack, and he should attempt to outline a plausible survival strategy for his team.



Puck's suggestion that his team will be able to evade Sentry's attack by teleporting fails on several levels.

Puck's assertion that Spiral can activate her teleportation power in an "instant", is contradicted by his own sources. shows Beast (looks like Beast) being able to complete his sentence, a full six syllables, in between him grabbing Spiral and her teleporting away. This would provide ample time for Sentry's attack.

Similarly the second image describes a "blur of motion" when Spiral teleports, which to be visible must take up some amount of time. In the third image, Spiral is forced to engage her opponent before she has time to teleport.

There is also no evidence of Spiral being able to teleport a group of people as quickly as she can teleport just herself.

Even if team Con was able to teleport faster than Sentry could attack (bear in mind that Sentry can fly to the sun and back in minutes, thereby surpassing the speed of light) it would be to no avail. Sentry's molecules move ahead of the timeline and he would be reacting to the teleport before it even happened. His hyper-consciousness, enhanced vision and reaction times would allow him to easily adjust his attack if required to by the imminent teleportation.

With no characters with enhanced speed or reactions, team Puck is totally vulnerable to the lightning kamikaze attack of Sentry and will be wiped out.



It's a shame, but Puck's exciting battle plan won't have a chance to be put in motion here. If he can establish Spiral being able to teleport his team quickly enough to evade Sentry, then I may consider his strategies here.



Puck's link to supposedly reference his claims about Monkey's clones, is a link to a book review rather than the actual text and the source contains no information to back up his unfounded allegations. Here is a link to the actual text of Journey To The West in PDF format:

Unless Puck can direct us to an extract confirming his claims, then there is no reason to accept these assertions, which aren't mentioned in the encyclopedic material.

What the text does tell us (chapter 3, p.37) is that Monkey can create "hundreds and thousands" of his clones from one body hair. I would love to see evidence of Engineer cloning at anything approaching this volume or frequency. The clone wars can only lead to a simian victory.

The suggestion that Engineer could do so much in so little time is ludicrous and, oh yeah, she will already be toast from Sentry's attack.



Sinister is certainly capable of mind wiping Spawn but how will he have the chance?

In all Puck's sources, Sinister is shown wiping the minds of people only when they are already in his power and he has ample amounts of time to monologue about his evil intentions.

Unfortunately for him, should they engage (Sinister having already been nuked by Sentry) then Spawn will not exactly be pausing to exchange pleasantries, he will be tearing Sinister to pieces.

Unless Puck can provide evidence of Sinister wiping the mind of a super fast character who is attempting to speed blitz him, then this strategy is doomed to failure.



So as well as coating her team mates with nanite skin, as well as producing numerous clones and nanites, as well as constructing a mutant detector (seems kind of pointless as the only Marvel style mutant on my team is Sentry and he has made his location pretty obvious) and as well as battling Monkey, Puck also thinks Engineer can interfere with Slave 1 and strip it down, all within the first few moments of the battle?

I would dispute this for obvious reasons of time and practicality.


I think that as things stand now, team Puck consists of little more than a few piles of solar ashes. Spirally, sagey and sinister piles of ash maybe, but still piles of ash.

Thank you.


A1. Sentry's powers.

Feverish agrees that Sentry's powers are not what he named - however he has a singular issue in this sense. He is still required to validate what Sentry's powers are - "Sentry's power is not a million suns, sure, but it is a million suns worth of power" - is problematic and all without attempting to prove it as so.

Marvel sides with me. The power grid I linked to was from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe series (hence the pic and not the book itself). It clearly shows what Marvel considers ‘normal' Sentry to be at - the same grid can be seen at:

I was forestalling ‘oh it's just a wiki' arguments by using the actual source to validate my claims. Note that Feverish has not validated his claims that 1. Sentry can move the speeds he says, and 2. That his power is anything equitable to what he states in regards to Sentry exploding (strength feats are irrelevant). Note the entry provides a very specific speed range for Sentry to move in whilst on Earth - one that provides Spiral ample time to teleport. Note that Sentry's energy level is as I state, only 3. He does not have the ability to undisclosed sun number energy explode.

A quick note on Sentry's "faster than light" - note it hasn't been shown - it's an incorrectly inferred speed that you find on comic forums - such a speed has not been noted, Marvel certainly doesn't agree with Feverish and the feat in question was partially observed within the comic - an impossibility at FTL.

Note for judges that all of these arguments are only relevant for the ‘if Sentry hits first' scenario - his suicide is wasted if my team is not there. In addition, Feverish is trying to assert his character as being banned level entity for this debate. The reason it was never brought up in R1 is because Sentry as per Marvel, states he is not this level normally (hence no banned level argument). If feverish wishes to disregard rules regarding banned level entities he is welcome to - the repercussions are his, and Sentry is not yet proven to be that level normally in any event (the opposite is true)- nor would he have the time to in the debate scenario.

A2. Spiral's teleport.

Unfortunately Feverish does not understand how panels work in comics. Image one with Beast is Beast holding Spiral. Next panel, Spiral is gone. Time frame is Beast talking then ~gone~ - not Spiral spends all that time while Beast is talking preparing. You will note my position is confirmed in both other images - he conveniently disregarded the final one, that is, Spiral's teleport is near instantaneous, and a "blur of motion" far supercedes the distance Sentry needs to travel and the speed at which he is noted at can travel. Asking for more is simply an attempt to shift the goal posts, no matter however. The same can be seen below, between one panel and the next, there is no preparation, it simply occurs.

It's not a unique comic tactic. It's a method designed to show speed in a static format.

B1. Feverish fails to contend pending what I can only guess is the Judges decision on the matter of Spiral. :P

B2. Again Feverish questions my sources (a bit wtf but whatever - if he thinks I'm a person likely to cheat so be it).

I linked to the source I read. That source is copyrighted, hence no "this here is the book to read link" - the link in question was simply to show what the book was. Still again, no matter.

From his source (translations differ):

"it came whistling down, caught the three or four dozen little monkeys who were hairs transformed and turned them back into their original form"

"It may do me no harm, but I can't save those hairs of mine. If they are caught by the fire they'll burn the way hair does."

Even if Feverish disagrees with the ‘hit > disappear' the text is quite clear on the fire aspect. And Engineer's clones are more than capable of continual fiery attacks.

On multiple copies: Monkey either takes one hair says "Change!" to transform into a copy or he chews hairs to make actual multiple monkeys. Either way, none can feasibly withstand molecular severing (see image R1), or Monkey's fear of fire in regards to his precious hairs.

"The suggestion that Engineer could do so much in so little time is ludicrous and, oh yeah, she will already be toast from Sentry's attack

Puck also thinks Engineer can interfere with Slave 1 and strip it down, all within the first few moments of the battle?"

Strawman. My tactics clearly arise from within my time frame of events, not yours. Note where the ship section occurs. It's a tactic that's in place for whenever your ships are brought into play and contact any nanites. Simply, they can't escape when the battlefield is flooding with clones and nanite swarms, both of which can initiate tech interference rendering them useless and additionally strip them entirely - and within my time frame these are the only things available for the ships to possible target.

B3. Sinister vs. Spawn.

Feverish leaves out some important details in attempting to save Spawn. Note he explicitly agrees that in the event of Sinister vs. Spawn, Spawn has lost.

"interface helmet that could amplify its user's telepathic abilities."

There is a reason why Cerebro was used here, it's the "adds additional power" aspect - not find the mutants one. Sinister can find Feverish's team easily without.

In addition I place Sinister within the psychic plane. Why is this important? Because it's psychic doomsday on Feverish's team. Sinister in the psychic plane:

Note he engages them without the "in my power" caveat that Feverish states is necessary. It is simply false - the psychic plane allows Sinister to engage the physical world in terms purely on the psychic. There is nowhere Feverish's team can hide from this.

B4. Addressed above with Feverish misrepresenting how my team is working - in particular, Engineer. It matters not when any nanite aspect engages the ships, just that they will.

C1. If, then.

If Judges deem Sentry fast enough, please note that contingent with the start of battle I had both Engineer and Sinister provide defences. Sinister is able to construct psychic walls - which I had him do. Sentry would need to break those (solar > psychic), an ability Feverish has not demonstrated. In addition Engineer went defensive too :

^ Easily deflecting massive solar flares.

Refer to beginning of round for issues with Sentry. My team is shielded if Sentry arrives. In addition Sinister would be easily be able to hold him.

A small mental flick to toss the held Sentry out of bounds would follow.

Spiral's teleport still occurs.

C2. Also, if, then.

If Feverish wants to argue Sentry doesn't suicide he has several issues. Firstly he explicitly kills off his own character. The only relevant article in this regard is how soon he gets there and what can he do once he is.

Upon the event that Sentry lives and Judges allow retcon of arguments (they shouldn't) - Sinister goes to work. Sentry is extremely susceptible to suggestion. Small task for Sinister whose boosted powers by the psychic plane and Cerebro allow him to appear as Osborn to Sentry easily manipulate him to fly out any remaining non street level characters of Feverish's on the field alongside himself.
Debate Round No. 2


Thanks Puck.


Puck states that I am "still required to validate what Sentry's powers are" but as I have already noted, the top limit of his powers is very hard to pin down, with the Marvel wikia (the source Puck also refers to) acknowledging that it is "conceivable that Sentry's powers are practically limitless".

As I have pointed out already, the common description of the power of (or equivalent to, if you want to get picky) one million exploding suns is generally accepted and fits in with the character's feats, background and how other characters refer to him. There are plenty of references to this in my previous round that Puck has not responded to.

Since the story in a comic is generally told to us by the characters themselves and we learn about their world through them, I think it is entirely reasonable to consider what characters say about themselves and others as fairly reliable, unless of course the plot indicates deception.

Puck: "Marvel sides with me."

No, the researcher who compiled the power grid may side with you but the writers and the content of the comics themselves seem to agree with me. As I said, the bizarre under-rating of the power grid could perhaps be due to Sentry often holding back his powers, which he won't be doing here.

Puck claims that the wikia provides a speed range for Sentry that would give Spiral plenty of time to teleport, so let's see what it says. "The Sentry possesses the ability to think, move, and react at superhuman speeds. He has been observed catching bullets and has also been seen moving far in excess of supersonic speeds; his speed on earth is enough to be gauged as fast enough to move at orbital velocity (5 miles a second). It should also be noted that the Sentry has numerously been depicted as able to fly to the sun in a matter of moments (where it takes light over 8 minutes). This shows that his speed during inter-stellar travels is several times in excess of the speed of light, or (alternately) demonstrative of an ability to enter hyperspace."

So he has been shown to move at orbital velocity but is also clearly capable of FTL travel. He is not only able to move at enhanced speeds but also to reason and process information at speeds way beyond a normal human (or mutant). Since in launching this attack, all he needs to do is fly vertically a few hundred feet while locating Puck's team with his super vision and hearing and then launch his molecules in their direction, it will take just a fraction of a second. The light energy that he exudes, will of course travel at light speed.

Puck: "such a speed has not been noted, Marvel certainly doesn't agree with Feverish"

Puck denies Sentry's FTL abilities although they appear in black and white on his own preferred Marvel source (above).

Interestingly, Puck seems to invalidate his own arguments about Sentry's power level, by going on to suggest that Sentry could be too powerful for this tournament. It seems to me that he can't have it both ways. Puck is clinging onto the power grid reference that understates Sentry's powers, but he knows as well as I do that Sentry is insanely powerful and reveals his true opinion of the character here.

Referring to the tournament rules, it is clear that while many specific characters are banned, the only general power level restriction is on god-type characters such as Dr Manhattan. This rather vague category is clarified further by L_M here: as covering anyone "seemingly omnipotent". There is no power level basis on which to disqualify Sentry.

Although it has been suggested that Sentry is more powerful than the seemingly omnipotent Molecule Man, as he can't fully control his powers that contradicts the whole 'all powerful' concept of omnipotence.

Yraelz made it all the way to the semis pulling power moves with Sentry. It was only through mental manipulation that my team was able to defeat him. For this reason I'm not giving Puck the chance, hence the suicide mission.


I think I do have a basic understanding of how comics work but I confess to not comprehending Puck's point about panels and timeframe here.

Beast clearly speaks with the intention of grabbing Spiral, whether he is actually holding her the whole time he speaks, as it appears to be, is pretty incidental. Clearly Spiral's teleport does not work instantly. Puck claims that I did not respond to his third source but careful re-reading will show that I said "In the third image, Spiral is forced to engage her opponent before she has time to teleport."

Puck has not responded to my point about teleporting a group being a very different matter from teleporting just oneself.

Spiral has normal human reactions and reasoning. Before teleporting she will need to take note of her team-mates location, as well as presumably other factors such as their bodyweight. She will also need to locate and select a suitable "secure location" to teleport to, all before she activates her ability. All this will certainly not be accomplished instantaneously and nowhere near fast enough to evade The Sentry, who's attack time I have discussed above.


Puck has not bothered to suggest what will occur if Sentry's attack does hit his team, so I don't feel the need to respond to his proposed preparation plans here.


I certainly wasn't trying to suggest any dishonesty on Puck's part, I was just requesting a reference to a source that could be verified online. Since I knew there was a PDF, I referenced it.

It would be great to get some page/chapter numbers for the quotes Puck offers. I can't quite place them offhand and they seem to go against what is implied elsewhere in the text.

Any fear Monkey has for his precious hairs getting burnt should be overridden by his ultimate loyalty to me.

In any case, this should be pretty irrelevant, as I've already explained how Engineer won't get the opportunity to carry out her preparations.

The Slave 1 attack was scheduled for the very start of the battle.


I would like to know where I stated that "in the event of Sinister vs. Spawn, Spawn has lost."

I didn't say that. I explained how Spawn's speed and power would be far too much for Sinister.

Again, Puck has no response to the speed blitz because he has selected a team that, while incredibly powerful, is just way too slow for my superfast characters.

Spiral won't be able to teleport Sinister to safety and even if he can somehow activate his shields in time and survive the Sentry megablast, he surely won't have time to "enter the psychic plane" before Spawn shows up.


Doesn't exist in my timeline.


Puck suggests that Sinister's psychic walls would withstand the Sentry's attack but Sentry is noted to have easily shattered the magical shields of Dr. Doom by wikipedia, so I would expect him to overpower Sinister's constructs too. Remember Sentry was powerful enough to overload the Absorbing Man and surely there must be some limit to the power of Sinister's shields.

I'd also like to know how he will be aware of the threat and how quickly he can activate his shields. If he can somehow survive Sentry, he will still have to face Spawn.

It's not really clear what Engineer "going defensive" entails, but again, if she survives the megablast she still has to contend with the multitude of Monkeys and no time to get her nanites together.

Since Puck provides no defence for his other three characters, I can only assume that he acknowledges their obliteration.


Unfortunately for Puck, I have no intention of cancelling Sentry's attack.




A1. "Sentry's powers are practically limitless"

Again Feverish wishes to play the ‘most powerful guy in the Universe' card. Two main issues with this. The first is the clear illegality of the character - the second, narration of potentiality isn't a power level. Marvel themselves obviously don't agree with the claim either - otherwise we would see a much more impressive stat line than is the case. The ‘official Marvel Sentry' is a legitimate character, backed by legitimate feats, measured at a legitimate level. It's a singularly unimpressive arrangement of ability and limits Feverish can not back up. Stating ‘I am God' doesn't make me so. Having my friend confirm it, doesn't make it any better.

"No, the researcher who compiled the power grid may side with you but the writers and the content of the comics themselves seem to agree with me."

The wiki is constructed from Marvel themselves, from *comics Sentry is in*. If it was so there should be abundant imagery and rhetoric from comics themselves to back Feverish up. This isn't the case. Feverish is arguing that the writers are in essence ‘leaving out the important stuff' - problem being he hasn't shown any of this to be the case and if it is the case it prohibits Sentry from the tournament level. Sentry as defined from Marvel is tournament legal, clearly not street level and has abundant powers and I don't have an issue with that at all. The problem is the amorphous, I am godly, Sentry that Feverish wishes to use.

Sentries speed: There is a reason I had no issue linking it in the prior round. "This shows that his speed **during inter-stellar travels** is several times in excess of the speed of light"

We are on Earth, Sentry has limited speed whilst on Earth. A claim otherwise I call no limits fallacy on. It is *specifically* noted that it is *limited* to interstellar speed, and unless Feverish can show otherwise that's where it is limited to (speeds were they true on Earth would be demonstrated on Earth - they are not; it's not an empty claim that he is limited in this regard). We can see this equally with the power grid itself and his speed of 5 (7 would be > light).

"Interestingly, Puck seems to invalidate his own arguments about Sentry's power level"

Not in the least. As I explained, the official Marvel stats and bio show him not to be the power level Feverish wishes him to be. The argument is, if Feverish's case was true, then it is also true that it is a banned level entity; not, that Sentry is that powerful, therefore he is banned level. My argument is that Sentry is not that powerful. Marvel agrees.

"Puck is clinging onto the power grid reference that understates Sentry's powers, but he knows as well as I do that Sentry is insanely powerful and reveals his true opinion of the character here."

Incorrect. Nowhere have I agreed with Feverish's interpretation of Sentry, nor have I implicitly done so. See above.

"There is no power level basis on which to disqualify Sentry."

Correct there isn't there is no explicit list which is considered banned level. We do however have clear levels from *whom* is banned. Galactus for example, and Feverish himself claimed he is the equal of Galactus.

"Although it has been suggested that Sentry is more powerful than the seemingly omnipotent Molecule Man, as he can't fully control his powers that contradicts the whole 'all powerful' concept of omnipotence."

Power level is the issue not ones control of it. And Feverish specifically states Sentry has control of his power to be able to *lose control* as per the initial attack. Contradicts his prior assertion above, too. Omnipotence is clearly not the defining factor given the actual banned list.

"Yraelz made it all the way to the semis pulling power moves with Sentry."

I am not here to debate all of Yraelz's rounds nor analyse any mistakes his competitors made - his arguments are not Feverish's to shortcut simply by virtue of ‘Yraelz made them'.


Beast has grabbed Spiral. Beast is talking. Next panel, Spiral is gone. There is no transition. Note Feverish ignores the Deadpool link showing the exact same style of time that occurs between panels - panel 1 no action, panel 2 action has occurred and the time frame is action between panels i.e near instant.

"teleporting a group being a very different matter from teleporting just oneself."

The image is in the initial set - a group teleport that occurs within ‘a blur of motion'. Spiral is the result of constant body modification- she has above human senses, agility and speed. - Super speed is distinct from teleport as list of abilities.

"Spiral is forced to engage her opponent before she has time to teleport."

Rogue intercepts Spiral who had just thrown down another character. Between Rogue throwing the punch and it landing, Spiral has teleported. Again there is no indication of preparation.

"she will need to take note of her team-mates location ... other factors such as their bodyweight."

Until shown as a requisite, then no. Her source of powers are tech/magic, so I'm not sure why body weight is an issue. Team's location is known to her, she is on the team after all.

"She will also need to locate and select a suitable "secure location" to teleport to, all before she activates her ability."

Spiral's teleports occur along the webway - a superimposed dimension on ‘normal space' that allows her to travel anywhere - it's also why teleports to and from are instantaneous - it's not that the teleport is instant as is, she travels along the webway which is timeless and exits into the normal world (hence instant teleport). Plenty of time for either Sage or Engineer to choose a location, (or herself).

"All this will certainly not be accomplished instantaneously"

See above.

B1. Unrelated to Sentry attacking - it is my teams setup in a new location.

B2. I quoted the exact relevant text from Feverish's source as asked - a pdf reader should have a search function. The quotes indicate a set of vulnerabilities that my team takes full advantage of.

"Any fear Monkey has for his precious hairs getting burnt should be overridden by his ultimate loyalty to me."

You use the character, Monkey. Using Monkey against ‘this is Monkey' is relevant. Monkey does not gain new thoughts simply because he exists in this debate, just like Sentry doesn't become emotionally stable because he has "ultimate loyalty". Whether, Monkey uses the hairs or not, they will burn if they are used.

"The Slave 1 attack was scheduled for the very start of the battle."

Only relevant under the condition Engineer dies - Feverish concedes as much below that she doesn't. If the ship is in play, to be active, it is vulnerable to Engineer, no matter where she is, whether in his time line or mine. Nanites, can and will destroy the ship.

B3. "I would like to know where I stated that "in the event of Sinister vs. Spawn, Spawn has lost."

From R2: "Sinister is certainly capable of mind wiping Spawn"

"I explained how Spawn's speed and power would be far too much for Sinister."

Specifically it was that Sinister would need to have control of Spawn. See R2 psychic plane arguments.

B4. I assume that if judges deem that time line accurate then his team is finished.

C1. Magic =/= psychic, and that feat is strength based. Again, show that solar > psychic.

"I can only assume that he acknowledges their obliteration"

Both Sinister and Engineer are capable of shielding the entire team. If Sentry hits he is blocked, teleport occurs. DP and Sage would be adequate to the task even so.

C2. Ignored.
Debate Round No. 3


Thanks to Puck for a great debate.

It seems that the outcome of this battle rests almost entirely on whether Sentry can pull off his attack.

Puck apparently assigns ultimate authority to the Marvel wikia's power grid but seeks to disregard all its other content.

Most of my points that he has contended come straight from this source.

Puck begins the previous round, omitting the "it is nonetheless conceivable that" from the start of the "Sentry's powers are practically limitless" quote and then says "Marvel themselves obviously don't agree with the claim".

This quote along with many others that Puck disputes is from the same Marvel Wikia and as Puck himself says: "The wiki is constructed from Marvel themselves... Sentry as defined from Marvel is tournament legal, clearly not street level and has abundant powers and I don't have an issue with that at all"

Puck states several times that Marvel support him and that my arguments are unsupported but let's look at some of the quotes I've already used and others that support them, all from the very source that Puck places faith in:

>"Though most of his powers and their limits are still unknown, the Sentry has been said to have the power of a million exploding suns"

>"Depending on how mentally stable he is, he could be powerful enough to fight off Cosmic Threats."

>"The Sentry blasted through nine levels of the complex carrying Carnage into space, where he ripped the alien symbiote in half"

>"Sentry engages the God of War. After a short skirmish where the Sentry has the upper hand, he rips Ares in half from head to toe to the shock of everyone on the battlefield. Osborn then sends the Sentry to battle Thor. Sentry gains the advantage in his fight against Thor"

>"His unrestrained power overloaded the Absorbing Man."

>"The Sentry can generate light, heat, force, and other forms of energy as powerful blasts and explosions of a yellow color... The maximum power of these blasts is unknown."

>"The experimental serum creates a phase-shift in his molecules, causing each atom to step an instant ahead of the current timeline"

>"The Sentry can react at superhuman speeds exceeding several times the speed of Sound. Sentry was able to catch a sniper bullet from an advanced Skrull gun"

>"Utilizing his superhuman speed to fly far above supersonic speeds (above mach 4). He has demonstrated traveling to the Sun and back in a matter of moments which would require him to fly at speeds faster than light"

All from:

I have not tried to make Sentry move FTL in this battle and to suggest otherwise would be a straw man. I pointed out that it was an ability he has, even if he has never demonstrated it within Earth's atmosphere. As described in the previous round, Sentry does not need to cover any great distance to launch his attack and the light energy his molecules are composed of will of course travel at light speed.

Sentry reacting instantly with molecules ahead of the timeline, flying a few hundred feet vertically at Mach 4 and his energy blasting a few miles at the speed of light will clearly take much less than a second.

Puck's logic seems to be that Sentry is perfectly legal, as long as he is incapable of pulling off his attack. If judges agree with me (and the weight of Marvel evidence, excepting the strangely inaccurate power grid) then Sentry somehow becomes "banned level".

Puck seems to think that the list of banned characters indicates some kind of specific power level that can't be exceeded, however it's clear that these are just a list of banned individuals rather than a basis on which to judge others. The only excluded power level is apparent omnipotence, which we know Sentry doesn't possess.

Puck claims that Marvel wikia doesn't place Sentry on a "level" with any banned characters in this tournament, however it does explicitly state: "it is nonetheless conceivable that Sentry's powers are practically limitless, and may even rival those of the Thor's, Silver Surfer's and Phoenix's." Silver Surfer is of course banned from this tournament but Sentry clearly isn't.

Puck says: "Omnipotence is clearly not the defining factor given the actual banned list."
Tournament organiser L_M disagrees here: "By god, I mean people who are seemingly omnipotent. Essentially, people like Dr. Manhattan or the Living Tribunal or anyone who cannot really be defeated."


Puck: "Beast has grabbed Spiral. Beast is talking. Next panel, Spiral is gone. There is no transition."

This makes no sense. A transition is a change from one stage/situation/event to another. For the two panels to be connected and on the same timeline, there must clearly be a transition from one to the other.

I don't think many people would speak five syllables in less than a second, probably closer to two, so as Beast clearly speaks before Spiral teleports, it seems that her ability will take at least a second to activate, by which time she will be cooked by Sentry.

The comicvine link states: "Spiral casts many of her spells by dancing or using her swords, the more complicated the spell the more elaborate her dance is."

This suggests that Spiral can't generally activate her abilities instantly, contrary to Puck's claim. Teleporting herself out of a dangerous situation is clearly a much simpler spell than teleporting a group of characters (especially one that she is not used to working with) to a specific location. Remember that with zero prep time, Spiral and her team mates will just be materialising in New York. She will have to take stock of her surroundings and team-mates and make the decision before casting her spell. The near-instant attack of the time-phased super fast Sentry will already have taken place.

Time travel is illegal in this competition and travelling through a "timeless dimension" to circumnavigate the normal timeline would certainly qualify as such.


Puck claims that Sinister and Engineer could both shield his entire team, but offers nothing to suggest that either could perceive the threat and erect strong enough shields quickly enough to save the team. Again the reaction times of these characters and the time it would take to perform such actions need to be weighed against the speed of the Sentry. I see no indication that either character's shields would be strong enough for a million exploding suns anyway.

Other arguments seem fairly irrelevant once the solar megablast has hit and I guess this battle really does just come down to the speed and power of the Sentry vs. the responses of Puck's far slower team.

Spiral won't be in any condition to teleport anything when her particles are blowing in the New York wind and Engineer won't be unleashing any nanites tonight. The edge in speed that Monkey and Spawn have will easily be enough to sweep up the remains of any hard-core natural survivors like Deadpool.

Thanks again to Puck and also to the judges, anyone else reading and of course L_M himself, wherever he may be.



Thanks to Feverish for a challenging final!

Are Sentry's powers practically limitless? Not really. Sentry's status in Marvel Universe: deceased. Sentry depowered by: being hit by ship.

Should Sentry have limitless powers? Depends - his super level feats are galactic level; Sentry is a being that needs to psionically absorb sunlight (see R1) - since the feats Feverish wishes to use appear on the galactic level - it follows then that he requires massive amounts of solar absorption - something he doesn't get on Earth (hence Marvel's "normal" Sentry level) and consequently something unavailable to Feverish's Sentry. Note the prior rounds where I made this point repeatedly. Sentry dies on Earth, where his power is limited. Sentry's super level feats do not occur on Earth. There is a clear relevance to Sentry's location and power level (see prior rounds).

Do I dispute "the quote"? No. My argument was that Sentry *as normal* is X level as defined by Marvel, supported by comics and as expressed by the grid. The corollary to that was - should Feverish wish to use ‘not normal Sentry' such power levels disqualify Sentry from the tournament (Feverish himself puts Sentry's power on equal to the most powerful being in Marvel Universe - Galactus -, banned at this tournament). The second corollary argument was has Feverish shown that his wished power level translates to the battle field? The answer is no. Feverish's singular lack of defining Sentry's powers is his problem. He concedes that "million suns" was a verbal device much like "man of steel", it fails to adequately to describe anything concrete and Feverish continually fails to define what his power level was in regards to energy projection. In addition, there was a distinct issue with translating that into the Sentry suicide attack i.e. it does not follow that Sentry dying = explosive force of any level let alone one of ‘undefined level' attack. The only relevant information Feverish includes to this attack came last round:

"The Sentry can generate light, heat, force, and other forms of energy as powerful blasts and explosions of a yellow color... The maximum power of these blasts is unknown."

Here Feverish admits by it's usage he has no idea what Sentry's power level is in regards to explosive force (that's the only relevant force in his suicide attack, since that was his argument). So what do we have to go on then? The power grid. Which clearly defines Sentry's powers in terms of explosive force/energy output. None of the super feats Feverish lists has anything to do with explosive energy either - all we have is a clearly defined article on what that level is, and it's not that an impressive level overall.

So, have I disagreed with the wikia article? Not at all. I simply argue it is contextual (and the evidence backs this up). It is however Feverish's argument that he wishes to use ‘the wikia is right till I want it to be wrong'.

Can Sentry move ahead of the time line? Not here. There is no "free" timeline prior to the battles start to move ahead into. The start of the battle is time = 0. What speed does Feverish use? R1 he doesn't indicate any speed, R2 he does however: "bear in mind that Sentry can fly to the sun and back in minutes, thereby surpassing the speed of light" - so I'm not sure what Feverish wished to argue other than ‘I want to use him to go faster than light' - the R4 retcon is simply that, a retcon of a prior argument about Sentry's speed. To state otherwise is the argument ‘Sentry moved at the speed I want in R4.' We then have the additional problem of evidence for Sentry's speed *on Earth*. The wikia provides a very specific speed, from very specific feats that determine Sentry's speed on Earth, and light speed isn't it. The speed Sentry can fly on Earth is defined at "5 miles a second" - plenty of time for Spiral to teleport, and my teams defences to be in play otherwise. Do molecules moving *ahead of the timeline* constitute as time travel? Certainly.

Is sentry's level banned? Yes, see Galactus. Is omnipotence the defining characteristic? No. Sailor moon characters, Silver Surfer, Squirrel Girl, Dr Strange the list goes on. None of these are omnipotent, they do however have vast powers and none are gods. L-M defines what he constitutes as a god, not that god is what constitutes solely as banned (traits is plural after all - see R1 link for list; nor is omnipotence even in that god list the defining characteristic given Thanos' multiple defeats even with the infinity gauntlet).

Spiral's teleport is clearly indicated to be near instant. Nowhere is there any image of preparation, nor any need for preparation. The images clearly show between panel speed effects for the teleport use and on panel speed effects for the teleport use (i.e. my argument is consistent).

"two panels to be connected and on the same timeline, there must clearly be a transition from one to the other."

Yes it's the same timeline, the events occur in a linear fashion - the *effect* of using between panels is to introduce speed into a static format. Feverish contends the Beast image is about preparation, and I disagree. Beast is talking. Beast finishes. Next panel Spiral is gone. There is no indication or sign that any preparation was occurring (and the other images agree!). Again Feverish ignores the DP image that shows the exact same technique. Even so, at Sentry's speed of 5 miles a second it is ample time to execute before he arrives.

Some of Spiral's complex spells require preparation e.g. cross dimensional travel (if Feverish thinks any of the images I linked show ritual dancing then he is wrong - only complex spells require complex actions, and the images clearly show no such preparation needed - neither dance or her swords are needed). Are her teleports tricky? Not shown anywhere and Feverish's arguments are simple conjecture without any backing at all i.e. a lot of ‘should' arguments without any basis. Spiral's teleport skills are defined by the comics where she is in, and nothing I've linked has Feverish used to support his claims, nor provided anything himself (essentially asking me to disprove a negative) and the images I link show no such issues - she teleports in direct combat (Rogue) after all.

Does Spiral time travel? No. There is a difference between no time and moving faster than time (e.g. Sentry) or travelling directionally in time e.g. to the future or past, none of which Spiral does. All teleporters work in this fashion, a transition of location within a null time frame, and teleporting isn't banned.

Engineer/Mr Sinister both engaged defences for my team at my behest. Their precognition of anything from Feverish's team is not a requisite, or every battle would be each team standing around. Engineer's defences that can block heavy solar attacks - Feverish never argued that Sentry's attack would defeat this once I introduced it. Again, Sinister can erect a psychic forcefield to cover my team and again Feverish never argued how Sentry would break a psychic barrier. Feverish also never argues that DP and Sage would not survive either (last round). Sentry's attack is a futile one, resulting in his own death and nothing more.

Never argued was the Monkey evidence regarding fire and being hit (I provided the evidence as asked, direct form his source). Nor that Engineer would easily defeat them resulting in Monkey's removal from play. Feverish also never contends that Sinister would not gain easy control of Spawn in the psychic plane, resulting in his removal. He never argues that the ultimate demise of his team's ships would not occur if Engineer is on the field, nor that his street level members would be easily disposed of.

Thanks to Feverish, L-M, the Judges and of course my team:
Debate Round No. 4
36 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TUF 5 years ago
this deserves more votes!
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
Hey, thanks for voting Atheism, hope you enjoyed the battle! Don't know if an official decision will ever be made on this debate but good to know that it is getting read.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
Do you think we should make a forum thread or a group PM with the judges to try to hurry them along a bit?
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Not that I know of.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
Has anyone else submitted an RFD for this debate?
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
It says I voted for the debate to be a tie. That's because I voted, but then unvoted because I decided that I don't want to reveal my decision until LM publishes it.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
@wjm: The DDO lyrical throwdown (rap battles tourney) also got succesfully completed recently, although it was admittedly on a much smaller scale and wasn't really a debate tournament.
Posted by LeafRod 7 years ago
Let's do a big wrapup at the end. Can I get some kind of acknowledgment for going into the tournament with a rock, an atom, and three users from this site?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Well, it's kind of sort of. "If" clause. Yeah, that sums it up I think. Anyway, I'm off to bed. This tournament seemed to manage itself well enough without need of constant moderation. I'll be back when we've got a winner (or beforehand if this process takes a while).
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Hmm. Misread that part of the debate so it would seem. Not an argument about Sentry being banned.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
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