The Instigator
patsox834
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
feverish
Con (against)
Winning
32 Points

L-M Classic: patsox834 vs. feverish.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/28/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,875 times Debate No: 9069
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patsox834

Pro

This is an Ultimate Team War debate, which is part of round two of the "L-M Classic." Rules and other handy information can be found through the following link: http://www.debate.org...

That in mind, it's time to begin. Good luck to my opponent; I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

Now for my team...

Street level characters:

Buckethead (I've supplied a link for anyone who isn't familiar with his work) -- he's a guitar virtuoso, who was raised by chickens in a coup, and wears both a mask on his face and a bucket on his head. He can shred on his guitar so fast that it blinds whoever he directs it at. Furthermore, sound waves from his guitar can temporarily stun whoever he chooses.

Bugs Bunny -- I suppose we're all familiar enough with him...he's essentially a trickster -- not much more than that.

Trickster: 1. a deceiver; cheat; fraud.
2. a person who plays tricks.

Those two are pretty much the same thing, so yeah -- that's how I mean "trickster" to be taken -- merely as a person (or rabbit, as the case is) whose strength is deceiving and playing tricks on others.

Now for my other characters.

Mewtwo -- the canon I've chosen is the animated series; what he can do from in the anime is listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Mewtwo is highly skilled with Psychic powers. It can fly through use of telekinesis, speak telepathically, and take control of another living being's mind. Mewtwo is also capable of wielding various types of attacks (but to a slightly lesser extent than Mew)."

There is more information under abilities than that -- but nothing canonical.

Storm -- her abilities:

<"Storm is a mutant who possesses the psionic ability to manipulate weather patterns over limited areas. She can stimulate the creation of any form of precipitation such as rain or fog, generate winds in varying degrees of intensity up to and including hurricane force, raise or lower the humidity and temperature in her immediate vicinity, induce lightning and other electrical atmospheric phenomena, and disperse natural storms so as to create clear change. Storm can direct the path of certain atmospheric effects, such as bolts of lightning, with her hands. She has also demonstrated the ability to manipulate ocean currents, though the extent of this ability is still unclear.

Storm's control over the atmosphere is such that she can create certain effects over a specific area while shielding smaller areas within that region. For example, she can create a rainstorm around herself but prevent the raindrops from touching her. Storm can also create atmospheric phenomena over very small areas, such as creating a rainstorm small enough to water a single potted plant.

Storm can only manipulate weather patterns as they exist in nature. For example, she can end a drought in one area by creating torrential rains there, but that would necessitate robbing all available moisture from the surrounding areas. Storm is not able to create atmospheric conditions that do not exist naturally on the planet she is on. For example, Storm is unable to lower temperatures as far as absolute zero or raise them to solar intensities on Earth.

The limit to the size of the area over which Storm can manipulate the weather is not yet known. However, she once diverted the jet stream so as to create storms over the entire East Coast of the United States. She can create weather effects within indoor areas or within artificially maintained environments. Storm is limited by the force of her will and the strength of her body. It once took her several hours to stop a savage blizzard sweeping over much of Canada, and she nearly died from exhaustion in the process.

Storm is able to fly by creating winds strong enough to support her weight, the weight of others, and to propel her forward through the air. Storm can thus travel as fast as any wind can, and has reached speeds up to 300 miles per hour. Her powers over the atmosphere enable her to breathe at any speed, protect her from air friction, and grant her limited immunity to extreme heat and cold.

Storm is also able to alter her visual perception so as to perceive electrical energy patterns as well as those factors responsible for existing meteorological phenomena in her surrounding environment.

Storm's ability to manipulate the weather in her immediate vicinity is affected by her emotions; hence, if she does not maintain control, a fit of rage might induce a destructive storm. Storm also suffers from severe claustrophobia.">

http://marvel.com...

Maybe that much detail is unnecessary, but meh.

Lastly, Spawn -- his abilities, as listed on Wikipedia:

"Superhuman strength, speed, durability and endurance, immortality, flight, magical abilities, teleportation, shapeshifting, regenerative healing factor, necroplasmic energy blasts, resurrection, empathy, wears living symbiotic costume capable of evolving"

http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics) -- below his picture, you'll see where I got this information.

Spawn has various incarnations and transformations -- but I'm not using them; I'm only giving him the powers I listed above. Anything else isn't applicable, for the sake of this debate.

My opponent's team is as follows (I'll let him talk about them further):

1: the Monkey King.
2: Dracula.
3: Iron Man.
4: Boba Fett.
5: Predator.

Anyway...my strategies:

1: Storm uses her manipulation of weather to make the sun beat down intensely, which makes Dracula weak, and takes away some of his most notable powers, such as shape shifting. (1) After this, Bugs Bunny, of all people, runs up to the Monkey King dressed as a female monkey, which makes the Monkey King infatuated with the disguised rabbit (or maybe hare...meh.) This gives Mewtwo enough time to take over the Monkey King's mind, and make him attack himself using his own super strength -- the attack on himself doesn't stop until he's unable to continue battling; thus, defeating himself.

While this was going on, Bugs Bunny switched costumes into what would appear to a human female, and then went up to Tony Stark (aka: Iron Man), and worked the same "magic" on him.

Boba Fett, unfortunately, has an encounter with the much more powerful Spawn, who uses a combination of his superhuman speed and the chains on his "outfit" to get a hold of Boba Fett, who then gets pelted with a series of blasts of Spawn's necroplasm while at his mercy. Boba Fett down.

While all this is going on, Buckethead has been shredding away...it just so happens that he directed it in the direction of Iron Man, who was distracted due to Bugs Bunny, and who's now blinded thanks to Bucket's insane finger speed. Mewtwo takes advantage of this by hitting Iron Man with a confusion attack, and then taking over his mind, just as he did previously with the Monkey King -- Mewtwo then makes Iron Man fight Predator to the death. Whoever loses then gets to face Spawn, who can simply shape into a sharp object, killing the severely weakened member of team feverish.

The only member I haven't addressed is Dracula -- fortunately, since he was weakened due to the sun, this gave storm a chance to use her ability to strike Dracula with lightening. After the other members have been disposed of, Spawn simply does the same thing he did to the "winner" of the Predator vs. Iron Man battle, except this time, it goes through Dracula's heart; thus, defeating him.

Team feverish has been defeated.

(1) = http://en.wikipedia.org...
feverish

Con

Greetings to my opponent, to the judges, the readers and bewildered members of the general public.

The battle of indestructible New York is on.

====

Team Feverish:

1. Dracula.

This is Count Dracula from Bram Stoker's novel, not the Marvel character based on him or any other imitator to the throne. This is the real deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

>Count Dracula possesses numerous different supernatural abilities inherent in vampirism, along with additional skills derived from his abilities as a necromancer which allow him to commune with the dead. His age and potency make him far more powerful than the creatures of traditional Eastern European folklore. He has enormous physical strength which, according to Van Helsing, is equivalent to 20 men.

Being undead, he is immune to conventional means of attack. The only definite way to kill him is by decapitating him followed by impalement through the heart. He has powerful hypnotic and mind control abilities, and is also able to command the loyalty of nocturnal animals such as wolves and rats.

Dracula can also manipulate the weather, usually creating mists to hide his presence, but also storms such as in his voyage in the Demeter. He can shapeshift at will, his featured forms in the novel being that of a bat, a rodent (primarily a rat), a wolf, vapor and fog.

According to Van Helsing: "all the dead that he can come nigh to are for him at command". <

2. Iron Man.

This is Tony Starks on Marvel Universe 616. He has a range of super-powered armoured suits, most of which give him super-human strength, speed and flight and have a wide range of powerful built-in weaponry along with a host of other technological abilities (acute sensory perception, psionic shield, force fields, energy absorption etc.)

At the point in his history when I am using him (shortly before the 'Secret Invasion' events, he also has the power of the extremis elixir which makes his basic armour part of himself, enhancing some of his abilities further (super-human reaction times, control of machinery etc.)

It would use too much space to list his abilities and equipment in full.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. Predator (street-level).

The Predator alien on my team is of the same race and has the same basic weapons and armour as seen in the Predator films and in the expanded universe.

However as this is a war he has a few items of warrior or military level equipment but not some of the most powerful and not more than he could reasonably carry, although his mothership will of course be somewhere in NY (how else could he get there?).

In addition to equipment issued to all Predators, I will specify that my character is also armed with a point defense system, multi-missile system, shoulder mounted plasma caster.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

4. Boba Fett (street-level).

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away... Ok, short version: everyone knows the galaxy's favourite Bounty Hunter right?

He is at the peak of human fitness and ability with amazing armour and weaponry. Plus his ship Slave 1 can be controlled by his voice commands.

http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...

5. Sun Wukong aka The Monkey King aka Monkey.

The spirit of Monkey is irrepressible. He has super-human strength and speed, flies on a magic cloud, is a powerful magician, possesses a magical staff that can change size, fight independently and more. He has single-handedly defeated armies of gods and demons, all methods of execution have failed against him, he can see through what others can not, has a powerful range of abilities associated with his body hair and much, much more.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.china-on-site.com...

==

I would like to point out a technicality in my opponent's team selection. Spawn's suit is described as a separate entity, which violates the number of team member's.
As I don't think it will affect the battle much I won't be calling for Spawn's removal, I will merely note that a precedent for additional entities has been set.

Wow, now I have to make an argument with half my letters gone.
OK I'll attempt to prove team Patsox's strategies flawed by outlining my own.

--

DEFENCE/NEUTRALISATION STRATEGIES:

1. Whether the Storm.

Storm's abilities involve weather manipulation. Unfortunately for her Dracula is an incredibly powerfull sorcerer with much more experience in this field. Storm's abilities cause her great stress and exertion, by contrast the Count is not shown to exert himself at all with his weather control.

At the very least he should be able to severely limit Storm's powers to the point of little practical use.

2. Spawn again.

Spawn is undead, as such his loyalty belongs to Dracula. As Spawn is a powerful demon in his own right, I won't suggest that the Count can take control of Spawn outright or force him to attack himself but at the very least he will be slowed right down and relatively powerless.

3. Hide and Seek.

When battle commences my opponent's team have no idea of the location of my team, who are at the opposite end of the city and will not be easy to locate. The Predator has his well known cloaking device, Dracula will be in his mist form and Monkey and Starks are fast enough to evade danger.

My team on the other hand is superbly equipped to locate team Patsox.

Iron Man, Fett and Pred all have advanced scanning and tracking devices in their helmets and Monkey can see through anything to find the members of the other team.

Fett enters a building. Dracmist seeps into the sewers and Pred blends in with the scenery.

4. Bestiality.

Supposing Bugs could somehow catch up to Monkey or Starks and attempt to seduce them, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work.
Monkey's ability to "see through what others can not" extends to trickery. He has seen through the deceit of many demons and gods, only the Buddha himself was able to trick him.
Starks is irresistible to many women but seldom falls for their charms, he is the angry loner type. If this recovered alcoholic has the willpower to avoid the lure of the bottle, he shouldn't have much trouble resisting the charms of a rabbit in a dress.

--

OFFENSIVE STRATEGIES

1. Speed.

Spawn is the only one of team Patsox with superspeed and while every necroplasmic cell in his body fights the call to obey Dracula rather than Patsox, he won't be able to use it.

Meanwhile my superfast characters Monkey and Ironman can make short work of Team Pro.

First target is Mewtwo as two of my characters are vulnerable to it's mind control powers. It is too slow to react effectively and will be defeated in an instant.

Incidentally, even if Mewtwo had a chance to attempt mind controlling these two it wouldn't work. Starks has a psi-shield and Monkey's spirit is irrepressible.

Mewtwo: killed (they will have to make sure of it because of his regenerative abilities)

2. Annihilation.

With Mewtwo out of the way and Spawn and Storm powerless and vulnerable, my entire team can move in for the kill and most of my defence strategies won't be necessary.

According to my opponent's source Spawn can only be killed by being "beheaded by a weapon of heaven" fortunately Monkey's staff is just such an item and with enough force he should be able to take Spawn's head clean off, baseball style.

The combined awesomeness of the firepower wielded by my 3 armoured combatants plus air support from Slave 1 does not bare contemplation. Team Pro will hardly have time to launch a single attack.

Result: Shock and awe.

Team Patsox = mincemeat.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
patsox834

Pro

Thanks to feverish for a great response.

<"Spawn's suit is described as a separate entity, which violates the number of team member's.">

No, the suit is apart of the character's constituency; the suit is essentially what makes Spawn who he is.

<"Unfortunately for her Dracula is an incredibly powerfull sorcerer with much more experience in this field. Storm's abilities cause her great stress and exertion, by contrast the Count is not shown to exert himself at all with his weather control.">

Dracula may be more experienced -- but Storm's raw power should be able to easily counteract that. When she decides to make the weather blistering hot, then there's not much Dracula can do, especially after this occurs, when he'll be left severely weakened, and at the mercy of my team.

<"Spawn is undead, as such his loyalty belongs to Dracula.">

Technically, no -- team members are "absolutely loyal" to the individual facilitating the aforementioned team, which means no matter Dracula's powers, Spawn still holds loyalty to me, unless someone on team feverish can "pull a Mewtwo" -- that is, use psychic powers such as telekinesis to manipulate Spawn's mind.

Anyway, let's forget about the above point for just a second; let's assume my opponent's claim is correct (though I think I've shown how it isn't) -- why would Spawn stay loyal to Dracula? Spawn didn't stay loyal to entities much, much more powerful than Dracula could ever hope to be, namely Satan. Knowing this about Spawn, I really doubt someone who he is clearly much more powerful than could keep him loyal.

<"When battle commences my opponent's team have no idea of the location of my team, who are at the opposite end of the city and will not be easy to locate. The Predator has his well known cloaking device, Dracula will be in his mist form and Monkey and Starks are fast enough to evade danger.">

If this is what my opponent chooses to do, then I don't see getting them out of hiding too difficult -- remember, one of my team members (Storm) is capable of doing an awful lot with the weather; she could easily blow them out of hiding with winds, and maybe even a tornado.

In fact, if I really wanted, I could just use Storm's ability to create tornadoes to make an F-5, which would essentially blow team feverish out of Kansas...err...New York; thus defeating them.

Also, I do not think team feverish could locate my team easily at all. Remember, I have two members capable of teleportation (Spawn and Mewtwo), and another who can use the weather to move rather swiftly.

<"Dracmist seeps into the sewers">

Who invited him, though? My understanding is that Dracula cannot enter...well, anywhere, unless someone invites him in. In fact, my opponent's canon confirms this:

<"He is also unable to enter a place unless invited to do so; once invited, however, he can approach and leave the premises at will.">

http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't really see Dracula as too difficult to defeat -- combine how much the sun weakens him and how he's repulsed by a mere crucifix, and, well...he's easily taken down. Those particular weaknesses make Dracula awfully vulnerable.

Here's another quote from my opponent's canon that shows Dracula's very exploitable weaknesses:

<"He is much less powerful in daylight and is only able to shift his form at dawn, noon, and dusk (he can shift freely at night). The sun is not fatal to him, though. He is repulsed by garlic, crucifixes and sacramental bread, and he can only cross running water at low or high tide.">

Storm can easily make the sun shine down with great intensity. Putting together a crucifix wouldn't be too difficult, and...well, I'm going to assume that New York has places to buy food (wild assumption, eh?), which means that garlic is probably readily available, since it's relatively popular.

In essence, my team can exploit the glaring weaknesses possessed by Dracula to make him useless in battle.

<"Monkey's ability to "see through what others can not" extends to trickery">

Ah, but how many actual tricksters has he dealt with? Bugs Bunny mightn't be a demon nor a god, but his power is to deceive -- is that the same with the demons and gods who tried to pull the wool over Sun Wukong's eyes?

And, well...if he was tricked by Buddha, who isn't even a trickster by trait, then I'd imagine someone whose power is tricking could manage to do it, too. Further, the fact that Sun Wukong *was* tricked only shows that, although it's hard, he is susceptible to tricks; thus, making him vulnerable to Bugs Bunny.

<"If this recovered alcoholic has the willpower to avoid the lure of the bottle, he shouldn't have much trouble resisting the charms of a rabbit in a dress.">

But again, this is Bugs' ability; he's a trickster. His talent, power, whatever, is to connive. So I think my opponent is putting forth an absurd oversimplification here. Sure, Stark might have will power -- but Bugs Bunny's power is to trick, which I think can overcome a strong willed individual.

<"Spawn is the only one of team Patsox with superspeed and while every necroplasmic cell in his body fights the call to obey Dracula rather than Patsox, he won't be able to use it.">

Ah, but I've shown that Spawn wouldn't at all want to obey Dracula, especially when Dracula has been rendered useless by my team. Therefore, this point by my opponent holds no validity; Spawn can still use his superhuman speed.

<"Incidentally, even if Mewtwo had a chance to attempt mind controlling these two it wouldn't work. Starks has a psi-shield and Monkey's spirit is irrepressible.">

I don't see where in my opponent's canon it says that Sun Wukong has such a spirit.

As for a psi-shield...well, we're not talking about a mere sorcerer here -- this is one of the (maybe the) strongest Pokemon, and certainly the strongest psychic type. I see no reason why Mewtwo couldn't use the array of attacks he wields to dismantle this shield -- nor do I even see a reason that this shield can stop such powerful psychic attacks and techniques. Remember, if it can stop them all, then there really wouldn't be much of a limit, which would make Iron Man illegal.

<"With Mewtwo out of the way and Spawn and Storm powerless and vulnerable, my entire team can move in for the kill and most of my defence strategies won't be necessary.">

Ah, but I've already shown that this wouldn't be the case, which would put a pretty sizable hole in this point -- my opponent's strategy couldn't really work if Spawn was still alive and well, and Storm was still doing alright. Mewtwo would still be around, too.

<"According to my opponent's source Spawn can only be killed by being "beheaded by a weapon of heaven" fortunately Monkey's staff is just such an item and with enough force he should be able to take Spawn's head clean off, baseball style.">

For the purpose of this debate, that's non-canonical. The only abilities, powers, and attributes Spawn has are the ones I listed, and nowhere in what I listed does it say that Spawn can be killed with a heavenly weapon.

Even if Spawn could be killed, he's capable of resurrection -- defeating Spawn by "killing" him isn't going to be an easy task, especially when you consider that another canonical attribute of his is immortality.

Anyway, I'm running short on characters; I can't introduce any more ideas without going over the 8,000 allowed characters. So this will have to suffice for this round -- perhaps I'll put forth a couple ideas I have next round.

Back to my opponent.
feverish

Con

Thanks and respect to Patsox for a strong comeback.

Scrolling up and down that post, it seems that most of my opponent's points focus on accurate character portrayal and adherence to the specified canon. I think he has raised a few valid issues but also made many flawed observations.

He hasn't really offered any new strategies so in this round I'll pretty much stick with my original strategies too, though I may develop them a little.

--

1. Whether the Storm.

<"Dracula may be more experienced">

Dracula's superior experience is acknowledged, I emphasise that he has had centuries to master the powers that Storm developed in her adult life.

<" but Storm's raw power should be able to easily counteract that.">

The assumption that Storm has more raw power is unfounded. The extent of Dracula's weather control is unspecified but given the extent of his other powers I would not be surprised if it vastly outstripped Storm's. I maintain that it would certainly be strong enough to neutralise most of Storm's attacks.

The most compelling evidence is perhaps the fact that Storm's powers require intense concentration and are physically and emotionally draining for her, whereas Drac performs his feats with a marked nonchalance.

<"When she decides to make the weather blistering hot, then there's not much Dracula can do">
<"Storm can easily make the sun shine down with great intensity."

Storm's powers consist of affecting the weather conditions that already exist in her environment. Please explain how this allows her to make the sun shine brighter.

Also I would have thought it one of the easiest forms of weather control to manufacture a small dark cloud in the immediate vicinity to keep oneself in shadow.

--

2. Spawn again.

<"the suit is apart of the character's constituency">

I don't intend to labour the issue of Spawn's costume. Yes, it has become part of Spawn but is still specified as a separate entity in the source.

<"team members are "absolutely loyal" to the individual facilitating the aforementioned team">

Mind control (as my opponent attempts to use in this debate) is legal and clearly overrides team loyalty, semantics aside.

In addition the control Dracula exerts is an involuntary physical control, so Spawn's inner loyalty is irrelevant, moreover he is not even attempting to control or make him do anything, just restrain him.

<""pull a Mewtwo" -- that is, use psychic powers such as telekinesis to manipulate Spawn's mind.">

I think my opponent is mixing up his mind power jargon, telekinesis (psychokinesis) is moving objects with the mind, distinct from mind control and other forms of telepathy. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Incidentally, Dracula's powers do include mind control.

<"why would Spawn stay loyal to Dracula? Spawn didn't stay loyal to entities much, much more powerful than Dracula could ever hope to be, namely Satan. Knowing this about Spawn, I really doubt someone who he is clearly much more powerful than could keep him loyal.">

Comparing Dracula with Satan is irrelevant, Satan (I assume you reference the Judeo-Christian Bible) does not command the automatic loyalty or exercise control over the undead. We can debate about him another time.

You assume Spawn is more powerful than Dracs. Well, I can only say that that's not polite and he is known to bear a grudge. :)

--

3. Hide and Seek.

<"blow them out of hiding with winds, and maybe even a tornado.">

Tornadoes are wind.
Storm's winds would be neutralised by Dracula and would anyway not be a very effective means of locating a hidden enemy. If this is really team patsox's only detection strategy then they've no chance of finding my lads.

<"I have two members capable of teleportation">

Teleportation is indeed a potentially effective evasion tool. However Spawn is struggling with some inner conflict (on a molecular level) and Mewtwo is just not fast enough to react to guys like Starks and Monkey.

<"He is also unable to enter a place unless invited to do so>"

This is a fair point, I had always assumed that this limitation extended only to private residences rather than just anywhere as the source seems to suggest. It shouldn't be too hard however, depending on how you want to interpret it.

I could personally invite Dracula to enter the sewer or indeed any member of my team could, even if we insist that they have to pop open a manhole and jump in there first to invite him, it shouldn't be a problem. Lastly he could simply order a rat to invite him in.

--

3 a) Further Dracula dissing

Dracula is formidable but does of course have many interesting (fairly trivial) weaknesses, this is part of what makes him a fascinating character. The sun won't bother him under a cloud or in the sewer, he's in the form I want him in, he doesn't need to cross the river and being repulsed is hardly limiting.

The fact that I am repulsed by paedophilia makes me potentially more dangerous to a paedo than a lack of repulsion would.

One important fact to consider is that in the novel Dracs is rarely, if at all shown to exert himself even when controlling groups of other vampires or huge packs of wolves. Throughout the story he is merely toying with the protagonists. It is only his own arrogance and complacency, plus Van Helsing's extensive knowledge of his powers and weaknesses that allows them to defeat him.

Drac is the don. My opponent's attempts to belittle him represent little more than mortal terror.

--

4. Trickster Bugs.

Bugs' girl outfit trick only works on especially foolish characters such as Daffy Duck, Yosemite Sam, Elmer Fudd etc. Clearly not on the same intellectual level as Starks or Monkey. 5 year old kids (I have one) are well aware that it's still Bugs under the dress. Saying he's a trickster does not put him on the level of a supreme being like Buddha who is most definitely a trickster too.

<"the Zen tradition speaks of the Buddha himself, the great enlightened teacher, as a "trickster">http://www.pwf.cz...

If my opponent really wants to make seduction a key tactic then he'd probably have more luck trying it with Storm, who is at least an attractive, female human.

--

5. Spawn again, again.

<"Spawn wouldn't at all want to obey Dracula, especially when Dracula has been rendered useless">

Whether Spawn wishes to is irrelevant, in fact I assumed he would resist which is why the effect would be near incapacity rather than external control by my team. Again this power is shown to require minimum effort.

--

6.Meow.

<"I don't see where in my opponent's canon it says that Sun Wukong has such a spirit.">

My bad, it is his nature rather than his spirit but I don't see much distinction. It is mentioned in the spoken introduction to every episode. http://en.wikipedia.org...

<"I see no reason why Mewtwo couldn't use the array of attacks he wields to dismantle this shield">

Starks is the greatest inventor in the Marvel universe where psychics are abundant, his shields would be serious and the slow Mewtwo would not get through them fast enough before Tony blew him to bits.

Mewtwo looks like a bit of a pussycat to me anyway.

--

7. Spawn again and again and again.

<"that's non-canonical.">

I don't think my opponent can reasonably post a source and expect us to ignore the parts that disagree with his argument, I am not disregarding any of my character's weaknesses.

The source describes a method of permanently killing Spawn that my team could easily employ.

I should also point out that a source specifies a canon and is not a canon in itself.

--

I remain unconvinced by my opponent's arguments and consider my original strategies to have been effective with my team's victory the inevitable outcome.

Really enjoying the debate.

Over to you Patsox.
Debate Round No. 2
patsox834

Pro

<"I emphasise that he has had centuries to master the powers that Storm developed in her adult life.">

Yeah, Dracula did have more time to develop the powers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's anywhere as powerful. The natural power storm has is something that you probably can't acquire just by practice.

EX: David Eckstein is an athlete who currently plays in Major League Baseball. He's known for his great work ethic, and for looking like an eight-year-old boy (though I'm only mentioning the latter because I think it's funny.) Despite having worked harder, and likely longer, than plenty of other players, he still isn't all that good relative to them, because he doesn't have the natural talent they do. Dracula, in this case, is Eckstein; Storm is more along the lines of Manny Ramirez. While Dracula can practice and still end up developing skill, Storm's natural abilities and talents put her on another level; Dracula is batting .260, while Storm is on the road to the Hall of Fame.

<"The extent of Dracula's weather control is unspecified but given the extent of his other powers I would not be surprised if it vastly outstripped Storm's.">

This is just an assumption that Dracula's weather control is strong because his other powers are strong...well, in response, I think it must be remembered that powers can be very much independent of one another, which means that the extent of Dracula's other powers are irrelevant. Now, maybe some of his powers overlap with his powers over weather, but plenty of them don't, and, well...seeing as Dracula's powers have been discussed, I don't really think I need to go through them all again to show this; it would be redundant and a waste of characters (which I need.)

Also, without any specifications, I find Dracula's power over weather to be wishy-washy at best. I gave a source that went very in-depth over Storm's weather manipulation, so we know the extent of what she can do; however, with Dracula, the powers he possesses over the weather aren't clear, so I'm not sure how claiming he can hold off Storm's power can hold any merit.

<"Please explain how this allows her to make the sun shine brighter.">

From my canon: <"Storm can only manipulate weather patterns as they exist in nature. For example, she can end a drought in one area by creating torrential rains there, but that would necessitate robbing all available moisture from the surrounding areas. Storm is not able to create atmospheric conditions that do not exist naturally on the planet she is on. For example, Storm is unable to lower temperatures as far as absolute zero or raise them to solar intensities on Earth.">

She can lower or raise temperatures, since temperatures are apart of what makes up "weather patterns," but she can't raise them insanely high, nor crazily low; however, she *can* still raise them, and raise them enough to weaken Dracula (though that wouldn't be too hard, seeing as he's rather susceptible to sunlight.)

<"Also I would have thought it one of the easiest forms of weather control to manufacture a small dark cloud in the immediate vicinity to keep oneself in shadow.">

I'd think the opposite -- to do such a thing requires an awful lot of control over the atmosphere (of course, manipulation of weather, in and of itself would, too -- but to create certain weather patterns over one specific area while making it so that the rest of the surrounding area is unaffected takes a *lot* of control over the atmosphere, and, well...I've been given no reason to think Dracula's powers over the weather are that strong.

<"In addition the control Dracula exerts is an involuntary physical control, so Spawn's inner loyalty is irrelevant,">

I disagree. Again, Satan tried essentially the same thing on Spawn, and, well...it just didn't pan out for him. I don't see why it would for Dracula, then.

<"I think my opponent is mixing up his mind power jargon,">

You're right...I did. But I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Further, while I did screw up in my attempt to distinguish the means by which Mewtwo can control a mind, he still can, so yeah.

<"Satan (I assume you reference the Judeo-Christian Bible) does not command the automatic loyalty or exercise control over the undead.">

No. This Satan: http://en.wikipedia.org...(Image_Comics)

From that Wikipedia page:

<"Being the supreme ruler of Hell, every other Lord, including Mammon and Malebolgia, must answer to Satan's will. In his absence, Malebolgia served as the grand master of Hell, creating a massive army of Hellspawn to destroy Heaven.

It would seem that Satan is highly feared by the other demons in Hell. For example: with the recent reappearance of Satan in Hell, Mammon seems to have fallen out of his place of power. Even his former servant Thamuz seemed ready to turn upon Mammon and destroy him at Satan's command. However, Mammon manages to save himself from Thamuz by offering Satan a way to increase the ranks of Hell's army - namely triggering the San Andreas Fault.">

If Spawn can manage to tear away from him, then I don't think Dracula will give him much trouble.

And, well, I just don't understand how necromancy is an effective means of controlling Spawn, when you consider that necromancy isn't something that can be instantaneously summoned; it's a form of magic that takes practice and time, and since we didn't have any prep time, this ability would be next to useless. Further, necromancy isn't controlling all that is undead; it's a form of magic in which the user summons demons and spirits. Summoning them doesn't necessarily mean they'll be loyal, and while Spawn is undead, not everything that's undead is a demon or spirit.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

<"Storm's winds would be neutralised by Dracula and would anyway not be a very effective means of locating a hidden enemy.">

Well, I believe I've already covered how questionable it is that Dracula can "neutralize" Storm. And, well, even besides Dracula's questionable control over weather, the crucifix, garlic, and sunlight would be enough to make him rather weak, so he wouldn't be in any state to be attempting to control powerful mutants such as Storm.

And I disagree that winds wouldn't be an effective means -- they can be extremely powerful. Especially if Storm's winds are combined with Mewtwo's -- Mewtwo, as specified by my canon, can actually create winds powerful enough to destroy planets. With Storm and Mewtwo controlling the wind, I don't think blowing team feverish out of hiding would be too difficult of a task.

<"However Spawn is struggling with some inner conflict (on a molecular level) and Mewtwo is just not fast enough to react to guys like Starks and Monkey.">

I think I've shown why Spawn wouldn't be struggling, so...

And I think you underestimate Mewtwo -- he's not just some weird Pokemon; he's perhaps the strongest one. Teleporting away from enemies is something Mewtwo would be very accustomed to. And we must remember, Mewtwo is a vicious fighter and crazily competitive, so foes such as Iron Man and Sun Wukong would only unleash his competitive nature (his competitiveness can be verified on his Bulbapedia page.)

<"The sun won't bother him under a cloud or in the sewer,">

Well, if Dracula is hidden away from the battle, then he won't be bothering anyone else, either.

<"being repulsed is hardly limiting.">

Depending on the extent of the repulsion.

<"Bugs' girl outfit trick only works on especially foolish characters such as Daffy Duck, Yosemite Sam, Elmer Fudd etc. Clearly not on the same intellectual level as Starks or Monkey. 5 year old kids (I have one) are well aware that it's still Bugs under the dress.">

Even if Daffy and company aren't on their level, the power attributed to Bugs is the same one my opponent claims Buddha possesses, so...

Anyway, I'm out of characters, so I'll have to address the rest next round.
feverish

Con

Thanks Patsox.

No new strategies there and several of my points unanswered but let's have a look at my opponent's points.

--

Storm.

I presented clear arguments for Dracula's potentially greater power, based on his vastly greater experience as well as the extreme effort required by Storm against the minimal effort required by the Count.

My opponent has conceded the first point and chooses to completely ignore the second.

No evidence or even logic backs up my opponent's argument about Storm's raw power. Comparing the difference between the talents of human baseball players is pretty irrelevant when comparing an ancient undead sorcerer and a young mutant.

Pro describes Drac's powers as "wishy-washy", his justification being that the source was vague about specifics. I think this is a baseless conclusion.

<"temperatures are apart of what makes up "weather patterns," but she can't raise them insanely high, nor crazily low; however, she *can* still raise them, and raise them enough to weaken Dracula (though that wouldn't be too hard, seeing as he's rather susceptible to sunlight.)>"

Temperatures and sunlight are two separate aspects of weather, it is sunlight rather than temperature that can slightly weaken Dracula. Storm can control the weather patterns in her environment, she can not control the sun.

My opponent also suggests that to draw enough moisture from the air to create a small rain cloud over oneself would be more difficult than to alter the conditions of the whole city, which is clearly ridiculous.

Readers and judges will have to decide for themselves to what extent Dracula's powers can hinder or neutralise Storm's as it doesn't seem that we are going to reach a consensus.

I think it's reasonable to assume that they would effectively cancel each other out as each character would be able to foil a weather attack from the other.

--

Spawn.

Patsox continues to compare Dracula with the Satan character but careful reading of this source shows that the demons were loyal to Satan because of his status rather than because he controlled them through a specific superpower like Dracula does.

Spawn only defeated Satan when he was himself made a god (by Satan's mum). It is clear that in this debate Spawn is not a god.

Dracula exercises physical control of the undead (although he can control the minds of the living and the dead also) in the same way he can control wolves and rats.

http://www.literature.org...

When female vampires attack Harker in chapter 3 and Dracula repels them "as though he were beating them back. It was the same imperious gesture that I had seen used to the wolves." this suggests he has the same kind of control over them. It certainly doesn't require a lot of effort because in chapter 4 when he is persuading Harker not to leave: "Close at hand came the howling of many wolves ... as if the sound sprang up at the rising of his hand, just as the music of a great orchestra seems to leap under the baton of the conductor."

<"necromancy isn't controlling all that is undead">

Correct. It is a separate ability, also possessed by Dracula.

If I wished to misrepresent Drac's power in this area, I would have claimed that he could assume complete control over Spawn.

Similarly I could have argued that Dracula could have out-powered Storm to the extent that he had full control of NY's weather.

I believe I have offered reasonable compromises which my opponent has rejected without justification.

--

Dracula.

<"the crucifix, garlic, and sunlight would be enough to make him rather weak>"

How would any of team Pro get anywhere near Dracs with the garlic & crucifix, they would not even have enough time to locate these items (my opponent declined my offer of prep time), which in any case would merely repulse rather than weaken Dracula.

Again I say: The sun won't bother him under a cloud or in the sewer.

<"Well, if Dracula is hidden away from the battle, then he won't be bothering anyone else, either.">

This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. None of my strategies so far involve physical involvement from Dracula and he has been shown to use all the powers he utilises in this battle over significant distances.

--

Winds/Mewtwo.

Please specify where the source demonstrates Mewtwo's planet destroying winds.

<"I don't think blowing team feverish out of hiding would be too difficult of a task.">

The nature of indestructible New York alone would defeat this strategy. The city is impervious to structural damage so one would simply need to duck inside a building to be safe from even the most powerful winds.

My opponent has ignored my persistent explanations that Mewtwo is just too slow to react to be able to evade my super fast characters, it will be dead before it can contemplate teleporting, it's competitiveness not withstanding.

--

Bugs.

<"Even if Daffy and company aren't on their level, the power attributed to Bugs is the same one my opponent claims Buddha possesses, so...">

I would love to know where my opponent was going with this. Bugs' trickery is nowhere near the level of a god like Buddha or even a superpowered trickster like Monkey himself. Starks is a genius and Bugs doesn't even fool little children.

===

I believe I have already conclusively proved that my team would win, however for my own amusement, I will present some strategy variations that rely on different members of my team.

--

1. Technology TKO

This strategy uses only my armoured characters.

The instant battle commences Boba Fett instructs Slave 1 to drop a concussion bomb on the opposite end of NY, incapacitating Team Patsox.

Iron Man flies high above the city and uses his scanning devices to locate the members of Team Patsox.

The dangerous members of Team Patsox are then quickly eliminated, Storm and Mewtwo by conventional assassination and Spawn by physical expulsion from the city.

Bugs and Buckethead are allowed to come to their senses and are then stalked mercilessly as prey by the sadistic Fett and Pred.

This is all too much for kind-hearted Starks who finds some solace when he picks a lock and loots a liquor store.

--

2. Solo Monkey.

Monkey could defeat team pro single handed. No problem. So could several other characters in this tournament such as Apocalypse, Amazo and Dracula.

Monkey is super fast and a far superior fighter to any of team Con. The only one who would stand a chance is Spawn and he's just another demon to Monkey.

Monkey is immune to Mewtwo's mind control and although Storm could confuse him somewhat with water or smoke attacks, this has never succeeded in defeating him before.

--

3.Solo Drac

Even without the other members of my team, Dracula's powers would still be too much for team Pro.

I have already established how he can easily neutralise the powers of Storm and Spawn and it was established early on in the first LM classic thread that anyone capable of mind controlling others would be immune to mind control themselves, so none of team Patsox's powerful characters would be able to affect him.

Dracula would also have an army of rats at his beck and call.

No one is quite sure how many rats live in NYC but estimates vary from around 45 million up to 95 million. http://hypertextbook.com...

Picture a swarm of 10,000,000 rats attacking each of team Patsox. I don't see how they could withstand this.

--

4. Solo Pred.

A riskier strategy but could still possibly work.

Predator simply stays concealed with his cloaking device and picks off the other team using his hunting skills and devastating weaponry.

Spawn and Mewtwo are stronger than Pred but if they can't see or find him he will always have the element of surprise and the upper hand.

---
Ironman could probably do it on his own too but I'm out of letters.

Thanks.
Debate Round No. 3
patsox834

Pro

First, I'm going to address what I previously couldn't.

"Saying he's a trickster does not put him on the level of a supreme being like Buddha who is most definitely a trickster too."

What we have to remember is that being a trickster means you're highly adept at pulling the wool over others' eyes. And then we have to remember that Bugs is an excellent trickster; this is an attribute given to him. Knowing that he possesses this skill, the same one Buddha has, no less, it's not at all unreasonable to think Bugs can fool members of team feverish.

"My bad, it is his nature rather than his spirit but I don't see much distinction. It is mentioned in the spoken introduction to every episode."

Non-canonical. The attribute being given to Monkey is from a television show. My opponent is trying to mix and match the link he gave with his original canon.

"Starks is the greatest inventor in the Marvel universe where psychics are abundant, his shields would be serious and the slow Mewtwo would not get through them fast enough before Tony blew him to bits."

Mewtwo's slow according to the Super Smash Brothers games, which isn't apart of my canon. Mewtwo is a psychic warrior; he's no run-of-the-mill Marvel psychic. Again, he's arguably the strongest Pokemon, and the strongest psychic type. Yeah, Iron Man's shields are "serious," but Mewtwo's vicious powers are equivalent in "seriousness."

"I don't think my opponent can reasonably post a source and expect us to ignore the parts that disagree with his argument,"

I have not done so. With Spawn, especially, I've made it very clear what his powers and abilities are for the purpose of this debate.

"I should also point out that a source specifies a canon and is not a canon in itself."

But I did specify that the source I used to give Spawn his attributes for the purpose of this debate is a "canon within itself."

Onto feverish's last argument.

"I presented clear arguments for Dracula's potentially greater power, based on his vastly greater experience as well as the extreme effort required by Storm against the minimal effort required by the Count."

I think this is a falsehood. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Dracula's powers over the weather are on the level of Storm's; my opponent's canon is vague when it comes to this power, so we can't know how limited nor how powerful Dracula's weather manipulation is, which is why this specific power is wishy-washy. Moreover, my opponent's case for Dracula being stronger was already refuted, although he did say my analogy is "irrelevant," without giving a real reason why. This seems to be the common theme throughout my opponent's case. I'll touch on that soon enough, though.

"No evidence or even logic backs up my opponent's argument about Storm's raw power."

My canon does. It goes gives a long description about Storm's abilities; that's my basis for claiming she has more power than Dracula. Really, Dracula's powers over weather are very questionable; the magnitude of the aforementioned powers are very vague, so there's no real basis to the claim that he could match Storm.

"Comparing the difference between the talents of human baseball players is pretty irrelevant when comparing an ancient undead sorcerer and a young mutant."

As I said, my analogy is being called irrelevant with no real basis. I must ask: why is it "irrelevant?" That's what analogies do, though: find similarities between two (or maybe more) things for the purpose of comparison, such as the abilities of a baseball player and a "hero," though Dracula isn't much of a hero, but yeah.

"Pro describes Drac's powers as "wishy-washy", his justification being that the source was vague about specifics. I think this is a baseless conclusion."

Why? I've given reasons as to why it isn't.

"Temperatures and sunlight are two separate aspects of weather,"

No. Sunlight is the cause of high temperatures.

"it is sunlight rather than temperature that can slightly weaken Dracula."

But if the temperature is increased, then the sunlight has to be, as well.

"My opponent also suggests that to draw enough moisture from the air to create a small rain cloud over oneself would be more difficult than to alter the conditions of the whole city, which is clearly ridiculous."

Why is it ridiculous? I don't see why it would be.

"Patsox continues to compare Dracula with the Satan character but careful reading of this source shows that the demons were loyal to Satan because of his status rather than because he controlled them through a specific superpower like Dracula does."

More reading will show this:

"Being the supreme ruler of Hell, every other Lord, including Mammon and Malebolgia, must answer to Satan's will."

Spawn actually defeated Malebolgia in issue 100 of the Spawn comic book series, and then took over the eighth circle of hell, which was the part of hell where Malebolgia previously reigned. Spawn did turn down the powers that came with this crown, but even so, he was put in the position of being a Lord of hell, and even then, he didn't obey satan, both when he was a god, and when he wasn't.

Clearly, if Satan couldn't control Spawn when he was in a position where he was supposed to, then an attempt to do so by Dracula, who's much weaker than Satan, would be futile. Of course, we must consider Satan's powers: "Immortality, Invulnerability, Supernatural strength, Massive destructive as well as Virtual-omnipotent power while being the supreme ruler of Hell."

"It is a separate ability, also possessed by Dracula."

Neither will work on Spawn, though, as I think I've extensively shown.

"How would any of team Pro get anywhere near Dracs with the garlic & crucifix,"

A crucifix is easy to assemble, and garlic can be found by someone who can teleport (Spawn or Mewtwo.)

"The sun won't bother him under a cloud or in the sewer."

We have no reason to think Dracula's powers over the weather are great enough to create a cloud over himself -- even if it did, clouds are essentially composed of moisture; when Storm turns the heat up, clouds would simply advance in the water cycle.

"None of my strategies so far involve physical involvement from Dracula and he has been shown to use all the powers he utilises in this battle over significant distances."

If he's in a sewer while everyone else is battling, then yes, he's removed from the battle. And let's assume Dracula can use his powers over long distances (I'd like to see where it says that, too): I'm not sure how that's relevant. While he wouldn't be that far away, he wouldn't really know what was going on if he was standing in a sewer while everyone else was battling.

"Please specify where the source demonstrates Mewtwo's planet destroying winds."

Below the information I gave in my initial post.

"The city is impervious to structural damage so one would simply need to duck inside a building to be safe from even the most powerful winds."

If they're in buildings, then they won't be hard to locate.

"Mewtwo is just too slow to react to be able to evade my super fast characters, it will be dead before it can contemplate teleporting,"

I see no reason why this would be the case. Mewtwo has a high intellectual prowess, which its abilities rely heavily on. It'd be able to see what's coming *very* quickly, and then utilize its teleportation. Also, Mewtwo can just put up a barrier if he chooses, or he can reflect the attack back at team feverish.

We have to remember, Buckethead's abilities haven't been used all that much, but he is capable of stunning team feverish temporarily, which is enough to give my team a great chance to strike.

I'm about to run out of characters, but before I do: remember, Spawn is capable of using his cape to hide my whole team, which puts a hole in team feverish's schemes. It wouldn't be impossible to find them, but it'd certainly be difficult.
feverish

Con

From round 3:

The point about Bugs's trickster abilities is already refuted at the end of my last post.

<"Non-canonical. The attribute being given to Monkey is from a television show. My opponent is trying to mix and match the link he gave with his original canon.">

A source is not a canon and the TV show is where I know the character from. Whether you start from the TV show page (http://en.wikipedia.org...) or the novel page (http://en.wikipedia.org...) clicking on the main character takes you to the link I originally provided (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

The quote is in any case a paraphrasing of the novel, Sun Wukong is frequently described as irrepressible. http://docs.google.com...

<"Yeah, Iron Man's shields are "serious," but Mewtwo's vicious powers are equivalent in "seriousness.">

If they are equivalent then they will cancel each other out and Tony will be unharmed and able to shoot.

<"With Spawn, especially, I've made it very clear what his powers and abilities are for the purpose of this debate.">

So you find a source that specifies a character, choose the powers you want and insist the rest of the source does not apply. This would be like me picking Dracula for his powers and ignoring his weaknesses.

--

Patsox's sole argument for Storm's powers being greater than Drac's is that his source describes the weather powers in more detail.

<"a long description about Storm's abilities; that's my basis for claiming she has more power than Dracula.">

I believe that it is illogical to construe that detail = power.

Dracula has so many other important powers that weather is focused on less, whereas weather control is Storm's only real power.

As for my own arguments about their weather powers being evenly matched, Patsox claims to have refuted them but I must have missed this. Looking back I see that he conceded over experience and has consistently avoided responding to the 'stress and strain' argument at all.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough with my dismissal of the baseball analogy.

The two baseball players are both on a human level with human life-span, so the gap in experience and in talent can't be that large.
Storm is a human who developed powers through mutation whereas Dracula is a supernatural being who hasn't been human for a long, long time.

<"Sunlight is the cause of high temperatures.">
<"if the temperature is increased, then the sunlight has to be, as well">

Sunlight is not the only cause of high temperature. Warm air currents, different rates of heat refraction and humidity can all create increased temperatures without sunlight. Nowhere in my opponent's extensive source does it suggest Storm can control the sun.

<"Why is it ridiculous? I don't see why it would be.">

Affecting the weather of the whole city (and certainly affecting the sun) would involve asserting control over many more atoms and molecules than simply manufacturing a small cloud from nearby water droplets.

--
<"Being the supreme ruler of Hell, every other Lord, including Mammon and Malebolgia, must answer to Satan's will.">

Note the qualifier at the start of the sentence. The reason they answer to his will is because of his status as "supreme ruler of hell" not because of any innate ability such as Dracula has. Others who acquire this position are similarly obeyed.

<"A crucifix is easy to assemble, and garlic can be found by someone who can teleport (Spawn or Mewtwo.)">

This doesn't answer the question of how they find Drac or approach him with it and in any case they will be otherwise occupied.

<"If he's in a sewer while everyone else is battling, then yes, he's removed from the battle.">

Incorrect, the sewer is as much part of the city as a building. He can read the minds of my other team members to know what's going on and use his powers to shape the battle.

---

<"Below the information I gave in my initial post.">

I'm sorry but I still can't find the reference to Mewtwo's winds in your first round.

<"If they're in buildings, then they won't be hard to locate.">

I don't see what the reasoning behind this is. Surely characters concealed within buildings would be harder to locate than those out in the open.

<"Mewtwo has a high intellectual prowess, which its abilities rely heavily on. It'd be able to see what's coming *very* quickly, and then utilize its teleportation.">

Intellectual prowess has very little to do with perception and reflexes.

---

<"Buckethead's abilities haven't been used all that much, but he is capable of stunning team feverish temporarily">

I'm glad that Buckethead got to make a cameo appearance in that last round but I don't see his sonic blasts working on my fast characters or those in energy-absorbing armour. Plus his blinding shred technique is unlikely to be much use against those with visors or eyes that see through all.

---

I believe I have clearly shown why my team would win using several different strategies and that I have successfully refuted Patsox's critique of them, as it would be unfair to make additional arguments in this round I shall not.

Thanks again to my opponent, the judges, and the readers.

Con.
Debate Round No. 4
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
New votes on this now?

Could this mean a renewed interest in this still incomplete tournament?

Sadly I think not.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
I have been copy pasting MTG's RFD. To avoid confusion read from two posts down upwards.

(Now I've just made it more confusing doh!)

MTG's RFD continued:

4 Con: Your point about detail ≠power is a good one. This gives you the edge on the Dracula/Storm argument. Your case reinforces many of your earlier points and gives you a very solid grounding.

Conclusion: Though this was well played by both sides, I can comfortably say that Con won. His points on core issues were a good deal stronger, in particular his points about the very central Dracula/Storm controversy.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
MTG's RFD continued:

3 Pro: Your baseball analogy paints an interesting picture, but it's not very convincing. You don't say WHY Dracula is like Eckstein or why Storm is like Ramirez. Your point about how Storm can raise the temperature is good, but you don't say why that matters or how it can get through Dracula's cloud. It seems to me like a small cloud is easier to control than a large storm, and you don't really convince me otherwise. You make a good point about Satan trying to mind control Spawn and failing. I like your point about blowing Team Feverish out of hiding. Your point about Bugs ignores the fact that Buddha is way more powerful (as stated by feverish) and you didn't explain why Bugs would be on the same level. I recommend that you not wait a round to address arguments; if you are out of space, then you should try to shorten some of your previous arguments.

3 Con: You cut to the core of the Storm/Dracula controversy and handle it very well. You make a good point about Satan as well. In fact, all your arguments in this round are strong. But it's fishy to be providing entirely new strategies in round 3.

4 Pro: There is no such thing as a run-of-the-mill Marvel psychic. You don't really explain why Mewtwo is more powerful than Marvel psychics. Most of your case is just repeating things that have already been said. The reader would appreciate some new material. You are trying to shift the burden of proof with the baseball analogy. It is up to you to prove that it is relevant. Your claim that the sunlight has to be increased is false. Storm could simply manipulate the atmosphere's thermal energy or could manipulate greenhouse gases. You make a good point about Spawn's godlike power. Your point about Storm turning up the heat to cause Dracula's cloud to precipitate is a good one. In summary, your case in this round is a lot better than in your previous rounds.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Wow, the actual votes have been really close on this, I guess I was lucky to win (although I can't vote for myself of course).

I'm just adding MTG's fantastically detailed RFD which me, LM and Patsox recieved by PM.
As there is a prize for best judge, I thought he deserved his RFD made public.

1 Pro: This doesn't affect the debate, but it would have been nice if you had written Storm's description in your own words. Maybe you could have made it more concise and not so long. Your strategy takes too long to set up, leaving room for Con to respond. You can't assume that Con will just stand there while you're fighting.

1 Con: You have strong characters and strategies, but I would like more clarification as to why your strategies would work. Some of them did not seem obvious at all. Overall, your case was well-written, but had some serious holes.

2 Pro: You should give more reasons as to why Storm is more powerful than Dracula. Con said that Dracula is much older and more experienced, which I see as a convincing argument. You have made no such argument, and have only stated that Storm is more powerful and have not said why. Good point about Spawn's loyalty to Dracula, and about Satan. Your case about Bugs being able to overpower even a strong-willed character is rather weak. The Bugs I know would not be able to seduce just anyone. Saying it is his "power" does not change that fact.

2 Con: I like that you re-empasized the Dracula vs. Storm point. It gave you a strong edge. Your case about the whole weather deal is virtually flawless. Your point about how Satan does not command the undead is not very strong, since Satan isn't called the Prince of Darkness for nothing. And your lingo is fun.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
COND - TIED S/G - TIED ARG - CON Dracula was not successfully disabled, and was able to decomission Spawn. Bugs Bunny failed to serve an actual purpose, as did Buckethead. Con's team made short work of Pro's. Sources - TIED Sources weren't heavily weighted to either side. 3-0 win to Con.

-pcmbrown
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
That's a laughable RFD, but meh.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
MY RFD:

B/A - TIED/CON
COND - TIED
S/G - TIED
ARG - CON
It was fairly apparent that most of PRO's arguments did not last, and almost all of CON's contentions suceeded. With Dracula, the spearation of the Sun and temperature was all that was needed. With Spawn, the distinction between rank and power. PRO's comparison between Bugs and Buddha failed. Buckethead didn't really do anything.
Sources - CON
PRO's cherry-picking of powers from his source, as well as using a statement that I know to be very incorrect, at least from his canon, lost this point.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
Good last round, feverish.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
I usually get cut off at 95 characters.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
So, how was Team Patsox supposed to destroy Team Feverish in the end? I didn't see any step-by-step, just a list of refutations, plus some last-minute arguments.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by emigre 7 years ago
emigre
patsox834feverishTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 7 years ago
Vi_Veri
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Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
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Vote Placed by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
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Vote Placed by MTGandP 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by pcmbrown 7 years ago
pcmbrown
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Vote Placed by LightningRod 7 years ago
LightningRod
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Vote Placed by Youngblood 7 years ago
Youngblood
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Vote Placed by tribefan011 7 years ago
tribefan011
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