The Instigator
Pill_Junkie_Monkey
Pro (for)
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The Contender
FollowerofChrist1955
Con (against)
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LGBT Civil Rights

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/14/2018 Category: Society
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 347 times Debate No: 106692
Debate Rounds (5)
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Pill_Junkie_Monkey

Pro

I believe those that identify as LGBT should be given the same civil rights as non LGBT people. You present your argument first.
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

The purpose of civil law is to restore someone as far as is possible to the position that they were in prior to their legal rights being breached.

In other words it’s to settle disputes and help the person who feels their rights were breached to be able to go back to their everyday life

How does this have to do with the LGBT? Till only recently the Government acknowledged (based on FALSE information, a person’s right to be a degenerate Human Being! I would say that a women who sleeps with men out of wedlock is such a degenerate .. yes?

de·gen·er·ate

adjective 1. having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable; showing evidence of decline: "a degenerate form of a higher civilization" synonyms: debased, degraded, corrupt, impure, vitiatedantonyms: pure

2. lacking some property, order, or distinctness of structure previously or usually present, in particular: synonyms: corrupt, decadent, dissolute, dissipated, debauched, ... moreantonyms: moral

impure- morally wrong, especially in sexual matters: "citizens suspected of harboring impure thoughts" synonyms: immoral, sinful, wrongful, wicked, unchaste, ... moreantonyms: chaste

per·ver·sion

noun 1. the alteration of something from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended: "all great evil is the perversion of a good" synonyms: distortion, misrepresentation, falsification, travesty, misinterpretation, ... more

2. sexual behavior or desire that is considered abnormal or unacceptable. synonyms: deviance, abnormality, depravity, degeneracy, debauchery, ... more

Matthew 19:4-5 Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 1: 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

All of these correctly define the LGBT lifestyle. From antiquity this conduct and behavior was shunned as a completely dishonorable. That is of Course till the corruption of the Government leadership has taken hold at all levels. Now we are a Country of immorally bankrupt citizens, who Murder Babies in the Womb, have women who according to the dictionary are little more than whores. (see Definition)

Definition of whore

1 : a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute; also, informal + offensive : a promiscuous or immoral woman

2 : a male who engages in sexual acts for money

3 : a venal or unscrupulous person

A woman who slleps with several different partners would certainly fit that bill, as would any woman who LIVES with and has sexual intercourse without a marriage bond, would also fit that

Promiscuous- characterized by or involving indiscriminate mingling or association, especially having sexual relations with a number of partners on a casual basis.

They cried about those poor raped women might having to HAVE the baby of the rapist …. Then once it got through they altered it to include the indiscriminate murder of babies, from promiscuous irresponsible women as a whole!

At present They have Murdered by

In 2014, unmarried women accounted for 85.5% of all abortions (CDC).

Women in their 20s accounted for the majority of abortions in 2014 and had the highest abortion rates (CDC).

In 2014, women who had not aborted in the past accounted for 55.1% of all abortions; women with one or two prior abortions accounted for 36.3%, and women with three or more prior abortions accounted for 8.6% (CDC).

http://www.abort73.com...

you didn’t have the guts to make a stand then now look where we are! Now you’re doing it AGAIN!

It puts me in Mind of What Norman Niemoller, a German Pastor who opposed the Nazis, wrote.

First they came for the communists, and I didn’t speak out- because I was not a communist;

Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist;

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionists;

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew;

Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Now you want to give Civil Rights to people who are degenerates. Tell us where is there a Law that makes perversion normal?

The facts are that no government can dictate morality! Because it is subject to deterioration on a whim of chance. Look where we were 20 years ago, and the decadence of today.

People live together … no shame.

People sleep together … no shame

People kill babies in the womb … no shame

People sleep with same sex … no shame.

People steal and lie on their income tax … no shame

People lie and cheat on their lovers … no shame

You know how you can tell a Nation on the way to total annihilation? Watch its people … down the tubes, slow but sure, each generation more bankrupt morally than the one previous? What does the News tell you? Your living on borrowed time. The future? There IS no future. Only the stupid and the Blind cannot see it coming.

But, a mandated … you know what mandated is?

man·date/G2;manG6;dāt/

noun

  • 1. an official order or commission to do something: "a mandate to seek the release of political prisoners" synonyms: instruction, directive, decree, command, order, ... more
  • 2. the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election: "a sick leader living beyond his mandate" synonyms: authority, approval, acceptance, ratification, endorsement, ... more

verb

  • 1. give (someone) authority to act in a certain way: "other colleges have mandated coed fraternities" synonyms: instruct, order, direct, command, tell, ... more
  • 2. assign (territory) under a mandate of the League of Nations: "mandated territories"

God has that authority and God says:

Revelation 22

0Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done.…

Debate Round No. 1
Pill_Junkie_Monkey

Pro

"The purpose of civil law is to restore someone as far as is possible to the position that they were in prior to their legal rights being breached" - No, this is false. The purpose of Western law especially in the United States of America is to uphold individuals natural rights. In the enlightened nations, governments rule via the social contract which can briefly be summed up like this; Humanity absent of government survived in a very brutish fashion, and people consent to being governed, also the only purpose of a government is to keep order, and preserve people's natural rights. (This is extremely simple)

"In other words it"s to settle disputes and help the person who feels their rights were breached to be able to go back to their everyday life" - Yes, but their NATURAL rights. Not civil rights. Civil rights are things such as your right to a lawyer, which in the absence of a state is meaningless. Natural rights are things such as self ownership, with or without a state you have the right to self ownership.

"How does this have to do with the LGBT? Till only recently the Government acknowledged (based on FALSE information, a person"s right to be a degenerate Human Being! I would say that a women who sleeps with men out of wedlock is such a degenerate .. yes?" - Sure, they're degenerates, but degeneracy does not violate natural law/property rights. As long as the "degenerates" are not hurting others, then their actions are completely justified, and no force used to stop such actions be justified.

"Matthew 19:4-5 Jesus answered, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator "made them male and female" 5and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"?" - Ah, argumentum ad auctoritatem; aka appeal to authority, in this case a false/unproven authority. Bible verses carry about as much weight in a discussion as a piece of paper saying,"Unicorns are real, and they like potatoes" They are completely meaningless, and not an argument. All other bible quoting will be ignored; It is worthless.

"All of these correctly define the LGBT lifestyle. From antiquity this conduct and behavior was shunned as a completely dishonorable. That is of Course till the corruption of the Government leadership has taken hold at all levels. Now we are a Country of immorally bankrupt citizens, who Murder Babies in the Womb, have women who according to the dictionary are little more than whores." - Doesn't matter, religious scripture is meaningless.

"They cried about those poor raped women might having to HAVE the baby of the rapist ". Then once it got through they altered it to include the indiscriminate murder of babies, from promiscuous irresponsible women as a whole!At present They have Murdered by In 2014, unmarried women accounted for 85.5% of all abortions (CDC). Women in their 20s accounted for the majority of abortions in 2014 and had the highest abortion rates (CDC). In 2014, women who had not aborted in the past accounted for 55.1% of all abortions; women with one or two prior abortions accounted for 36.3%, and women with three or more prior abortions accounted for 8.6% (CDC)." - What does abortion have to do with LGBT rights? So, anyway "degenerates" are more likely to have abortions, so what? Someone that owns a firearm is more likely to commit a crime with a firearm, than someone who does not own one, does that make firearm owners immoral people? Of course not. They have not done anything wrong until they actually get an abortion!

"First they came for the communists, and I didn"t speak out- because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionists;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Now you want to give Civil Rights to people who are degenerates. Tell us where is there a Law that makes perversion normal?" - And Godwin's Law rears it's ugly head. Argumentum ad Hitlerum. Godwins Law states that any political discussion, especially online given enough time will eventually produce a comparison to Hitler or the Nazi party, and that is safe to assume that the person who made the comparison has already lost the debate. Comparing something to Hitler or the Nazis is a logical fallacy. It is not a valid argument. Also, the Nazi party wanted to infringe on the rights of Jews, and I wish to protect the natural rights of all humans. There is absolutely nothing wrong with degeneracy as long it does not violate others rights.

"The facts are that no government can dictate morality! Because it is subject to deterioration on a whim of chance. Look where we were 20 years ago, and the decadence of today." - You're right, morality is objective and can only be obtained by logic and reason. However the purpose of government is to protect natural law/morality. Better yet, look at where we were several hundred years ago. Philosophers worked on universalizing natural law to apply to slaves as well, and to force government to uphold this natural law.

"You know how you can tell a Nation on the way to total annihilation? Watch its people " down the tubes, slow but sure, each generation more bankrupt morally than the one previous? What does the News tell you? Your living on borrowed time. The future? There IS no future. Only the stupid and the Blind cannot see it coming." - I do agree, I believe governments ARE the biggest threat to humanity, and to natural law. The way I see it, either people must wake up and abolish government, or die. However, you are the one who wishes to violate natural law.

"God has that authority and God says:" - Going to have to stop you there. God is an unproven/false authority. Invalid argument.

Here are a few videos about natural law. It's mainly about property rights and the non-aggression principle, but they also touch on why the social contract is invalid, however the social contract for this discussion is not important. But if you don't want to see the logic behind natural law it can be summarized like this: You own yourself, and by extension you own the fruits of your labor, and the results of your actions. By this, it is immoral to violate these rights. This prohibits murder, rape, theft, and assault.

Stefan Molyneux -A Proof of Property Rights : https://www.youtube.com...
Shane Killian - Libertarianism and Property Rights from First Principles : https://www.youtube.com...
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

Your statement- "Yes, but their NATURAL rights. Not civil rights. Civil rights are things such as your right to a lawyer, which in the absence of a state is meaningless."

Sorry guy, can’t make up your own things. Right to lawyer, is Miranda!

What are the Miranda Rights? In 1966, the U.S. Supreme Court decided the historic case of Miranda v. Arizona, declaring that whenever a person is taken into police blah, bah, blah!

you further state " Natural rights are things such as self ownership, with or without a state you have the right to self ownership."

What a pant load! Just makin it up as you go huh?

Natural rights are also made up. There WERE no rights save survival of the fittest! Whichh ruled on through the old west! So what “Natural Laws” you getting at?

Your statement " Ah, argumentum ad auctoritatem; aka appeal to authority, in this case a false/unproven authority."

you state "God has that authority and God says:" - Going to have to stop you there. God is an unproven/false authority. Invalid argument.

Argumentum ignoramus- That YOU have “NOT” found God IS your problem pal! I have looked I speak from knowledgeable authority and as a witness to the same! My responsibilitiy has been accomplished, that yours hasn't doesn't make it unproven to anyone BUT to the persons having FAILED TO LOOK!

There is all kinds of proof … but SURPRISE … you have to go look. You haven’t I HAVE and I am under no obligation to do all the work FOR YOU! That’s my right!

2.2 Billion people on the Earth today HAVE found God! The rest are still looking except you walkin Dead of course! Case is closed ... your "not looking" doesn't count as reputable nor fact!

That having been said. Ignore what you want, you appear to be relying on the opinions of everyone else ... that's your mistake. There was a time I trusted only me now I don't even trust ME I trust God ONLY!? He is the only one who tells truth ALL the time!

Your statement "Of course not. They have not done anything wrong until they actually get an abortion!"

Listen to you. You don’t HAVE any argument Do You?

Your statement "And Godwin's Law rears it's ugly head. Argumentum ad Hitlerum. "

Your statement? “There is absolutely nothing wrong with degeneracy as long it does not violate others rights.”

That ends the debte right there! You just admitted appropriately so they ARE degenerates

You Further just capitulated that nothing wrong so long as they don’t violate other’s Rights … BINGO

My right to make them a Marriage cake got trashed. I lost my Right because of the degenrates LGBT

My right to serve in my place of business, also went down the tubes … that’s 2 rights the LGBT have trashed!

My right NOT to have my children exposed to their degeneracy is also now being trashed, That’s 3 of MY RIGHTS that have been trashed over these perverts!

So much for your complaining? When you kid comes home not knowing whether he’s a girl or a boy BECAUSE their teaching children their trash, you’re gonna be in a World of hurt, because instead of speaking up, you just through out Big Words while you were busy being brain dead!

You said quote” You're right, morality is objective and can only be obtained by logic and reason. However “

I’ll stop you right there philosophers don’t MAKE laws, You have “YET” to demonstrate you even KNOW logic and reason!

You wrote” I do agree, I believe governments ARE the biggest threat to humanity, and to natural law. The way I see it, either people must wake up and abolish government, or die. However, you are the one who wishes to violate natural law.”

Again with natural law … I already proven the only natural law is Gods, and violation of it-sends the violator to Hell, which unless you retract you cranium from your external/internal anal sphincter, your gonna have a close encounter of the worse kind … ‘Te Capito!

As to Degeneracy your “Quote“There is absolutely nothing wrong with degeneracy as long it does not violate others rights.”

I have given 3 VERY REAL RIGHTS in the News no less that were removed from the population over these degenerates? Don’t think the laws DON’T apply to you and yours? YOU now no longer HAVE the right to refuse services to these “Disgusting individuals” Harsh? Perhaps, but look at what’s been ALLOWED to happen because people refuse to speak out? Things are THIS BAD just since the Supreme Court failed us ALL, by politicizing their responsibilities and moral standing? Where will we be in another year of ignoring the consequences of maintaining a responsible civility among the peoples of the Nation? Will we HAVE another year?

Have you actually considered the results of a nuclear War and its ramifications? Best you start, cause emp kills all electrical systems for years, not days. No electrical grid, no water cause the pumps no longer work. No trash pickups, because all cars are fried electrical systems, No phones anymore, No food delivered to the Markets, what you have is what you WILL have till, the gangs of sinners, who have no problem with taking what’s YOURS, comes for you? Oh and that Natural Law your talking about … returns to Survival of the fittest. And your guns all but useless against a gang of thirty equally armed hooligans who have ONE THING on their mind your women and your Food!

Ask anyone who knows Nuclear, Biological and Chemical warfare. They’ll tell you! Not gonna be pretty, and Me? 2.2 Billion Christians who HAVE bothered to look and HAVE found and established a relationship with the one who controls it ALL. We will be in the Marriage supper of the Lamb, preparing to return in 7 Years after the only remaining 2.5 Billion of you that survived, the devastation, enter into The Millennial reign of the Lamb.

But according to you, none of that is true. I highly suggest you start paying much BETTER attention to what’s happening all around you, while YOUR NOT paying attention. If you DO? You will see that what the Bible said about the End days? Is happening all over the World, and you people not looking are gonna suffer the consequences of your Failures to care about the World you have been privileged to inhabit!

Debate Round No. 2
Pill_Junkie_Monkey

Pro

"Sorry guy, can"t make up your own things. Right to lawyer, is Miranda!" - Yeah, It is a civil right. Like I said. Miranda is a civil right.

"you further state " Natural rights are things such as self ownership, with or without a state you have the right to self ownership." What a pant load! Just makin it up as you go huh? Natural rights are also made up. There WERE no rights save survival of the fittest! Whichh ruled on through the old west! So what "Natural Laws" you getting at?" - Now I can tell you didn't watch this videos explaining natural law. You heard the name, natural law has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. But allow me to explain natural law from first principles of logic.

1.The Principle of Non-contradiction. This is the first principle of all logic and reason, and it is as it sounds. Claims cannot contradict themselves. If a posit contradict itself, it must be rejected as it is false.
2.The Consistency Principle. This is an extension of the principle of non-contradiction. If inconsistency is found in a posit, it must be rejected. Moreover if two things are true dichotomy, and one is falsified the other must be true. Here is an example and reinforcement for this principle. Take these two claims "Consistency is preferable" - "Consistency is not preferable," If consistency is not preferable, it is not preferable to consistently apply that posit, therefor consistency must be preferable.
3.Burden of proof is on the active side, not the passive side. If the burden of proof is on the passive side, then the passive side must justify everything they are not doing, which is impossible, since that posit is false, the other must be true. Therefor burden of proof is on the active side.
4.You own yourself. Otherwise, who gets to own you? If you are not endowed with self-ownership then how can you even justify your own existence? If only some people have self-ownership, how, and why? The posit of "You do not own yourself" is inconsistent and false. Therefor, you own yourself
5.You own the results of your actions, and the fruits of your labor. Otherwise, who gets to own those? The posit that you do not own the results of your actions and the fruits of your labor is false, therefor you own the fruits of your labor, and results your actions.
6.Thereby, any violation of these property rights are not justified, and this is where we get the non-aggression principle.

Unless you can find a flaw within this chain of logic, then property rights/natural law do exist, undeniably so.

"Argumentum ignoramus- That YOU have "NOT" found God IS your problem pal! I have looked I speak from knowledgeable authority and as a witness to the same! My responsibilitiy has been accomplished, that yours hasn't doesn't make it unproven to anyone BUT to the persons having FAILED TO LOOK!" - Shifting the burden of proof. Also, that isn't an argumentum ad ignorantiam. the argument from ignorance is used to support a posit. Of which, I've made no posit only rejected your (Totally bogus) posit of there being a God.

"2.2 Billion people on the Earth today HAVE found God! The rest are still looking except you walkin Dead of course! Case is closed ... your "not looking" doesn't count as reputable nor fact!" - Argumentum ad populum. Just because an idea is popular does not mean it is true.

"That having been said. Ignore what you want, you appear to be relying on the opinions of everyone else ... that's your mistake. There was a time I trusted only me now I don't even trust ME I trust God ONLY!? He is the only one who tells truth ALL the time!" - Personally I worship the giant spaghetti monster. ;D

"Listen to you. You don"t HAVE any argument Do You?" - I don't need one. I just must prove your arguments false, as you are the one attempting to use force.

"You Further just capitulated that nothing wrong so long as they don"t violate other"s Rights " BINGO My right to make them a Marriage cake got trashed. I lost my Right because of the degenrates LGBT My right to serve in my place of business, also went down the tubes " that"s 2 rights the LGBT have trashed!" - I AGREE WITH YOU HERE! :D The government should not force you to serve LGBT people. However, if you do not want your kids to seem something, it is your responsibility to shield them from it.

"So much for your complaining? When you kid comes home not knowing whether he"s a girl or a boy BECAUSE their teaching children their trash, you"re gonna be in a World of hurt, because instead of speaking up, you just through out Big Words while you were busy being brain dead!" - The likely hood of that happening is extremely low (in fact I've never met a transgender person in my whole life, that is how rare they are) That is nothing more than a preference, not a moral law.

"I"ll stop you right there philosophers don"t MAKE laws, You have "YET" to demonstrate you even KNOW logic and reason!" - Of course they don't, law makers do. However they do discover moral/ethical laws. Also, nice classic argumentum ad hominem. Attacking me personally really does not help your case.

"I have given 3 VERY REAL RIGHTS in the News no less that were removed from the population over these degenerates? Don"t think the laws DON"T apply to you and yours? YOU now no longer HAVE the right to refuse services to these "Disgusting individuals" Harsh? Perhaps, but look at what"s been ALLOWED to happen because people refuse to speak out? Things are THIS BAD just since the Supreme Court failed us ALL, by politicizing their responsibilities and moral standing? Where will we be in another year of ignoring the consequences of maintaining a responsible civility among the peoples of the Nation? Will we HAVE another year?" - I agree! We should be able to refuse service to them. However, they should still have the right to get married, and use PUBLIC domain.

"Have you actually considered the results of a nuclear War and its ramifications?" - Yes, it is part of the reason why I'm an Anarchist. Governments and their arms are the biggest danger to humanity.

"Best you start, cause emp kills all electrical systems for years, not days. No electrical grid, no water cause the pumps no longer work. No trash pickups, because all cars are fried electrical systems, No phones anymore, No food delivered to the Markets, what you have is what you WILL have till, the gangs of sinners, who have no problem with taking what"s YOURS, comes for you? Oh and that Natural Law your talking about " returns to Survival of the fittest. And your guns all but useless against a gang of thirty equally armed hooligans who have ONE THING on their mind your women and your Food!" - Argumentum ad baculum. Making indirect threats such as that are....Not an argument :D Also, to prove natural law wrong, you must prove the logic behind it to be wrong. Until then, natural law is valid.
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

You state “ But allow me to explain natural law from first principles of logic.”
Such crapola because some Scholar tells you an opinion don’t make it fact, especially tsince the beginning of time, AND as EVIDENCE not opinion has proven, vis a vis, what automatically happens immediately upon catastrophic occurrences, ie… rape pillage and plunder, (remember Katrina) , people will EAT EACH OTHER in desperate situations, gangs form and your pretended Brainiac’s, scramble for cover!
Don’t hand us some opinion garbage, when we are dealing with Real Life and Real World events! Everybody reading this knows that big talk amounts to nothing in light of realities! The facts are that Survival of the fittest IS at play and waits in the wings for the Next catastrophe, and everybody knows it without some person’s opinion. Most of us have lived long enough and witnessed real events enough to know you’re talking absolute lies!
That’s the flaw … it’s crap! Complete opinion and imagination in every way!
You state “Shifting the burden of proof”
I HAVE no burden of proof as I said. The Facts are simple. One who doesn’t look at all, cannot Claim knowledge of subject matter as if they know , especially when it is plain the person refuses to study for himself!

So as I said before, You CANNOT CLAIM knowledge of a Subject you have NEVER investigated except by opinions conjectures of OTHER people. This of course ... has nothing to do with some IMAGINED burden you liars (and that’s what that is … somebody somewhere lead you to believe that it is the Religious who have some imaginary responsibility to PROVE something to those to ignorant to look for themselves? WRONGO!

Tell me who dresses you? Who feeds you? Who teaches you? Nobody GIVES you anything it is YOU who MUST feed yourself, Dress yourself, Study the material provided to LEARN! So quit lying to yourself.

Allow me to PROVE the only thing I am obligated BY God Himself to tell you? That’s ALL Christians?

Mark 16:14 Later as they were eating, Jesus appeared to the eleven and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.…

Do you see anything about Burden of proof? Nope, it states plainly tell you … period. You don’t look? You don’t believe … CONDEMNED!

Romans 1-18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

You see God states He has put right in FRONT of your own eyes all the proof you need, that YOU deny it’s Him who has done them is YOUR error! To which God adamantly tells YOU, that YOU are without excuse! End of story … YOUR being held accountable BY GOD to look and learn!

Things that are useless are generally discarded! I AM the expert here not any other when it comes to God, because I KNOW God, you don’t, I have a relationship with the Real God, you Don’t I study to show myself approved having no need to be ashamed, dividing the Word rightly! You Don’t. Those who are wise will listen to Me because I know, and they ALL know that YOU don’t. They want to follow you to Hell? That’s their choice, it will have ZERO bearing upon me as I am held responsible for my actions alone!

That’s just simple Life Pro! You know this, you’re not completely stupid? You’re just deliberately closed your mind to facts, truths of Life no one can deny! You’re argumentative because you’re completely wrong. I’m telling you facts, not from someone else’s opinions, but from Real experience, you? All you’re doing is parroting some other yahoo, that has letters behind his name that you don’t even know!

So save the fake knowledge and get back into the real world … or don’t and STAY condemned, that IS your choice because it’s YOUR consequence! No one reading this is gonna answer for what you do but YOU! So may the force be with you Pro, cause God isn’t! HE is with ME!

I stated "Listen to you. You don"t HAVE any argument Do You?" You responded “- I don't need one. I just must prove your arguments false, as you are the one attempting to use force.”

See? Deluded to the core. Playing games, ducking, dodging … No facts at all. Just opinions, false conjectures, and an inability to see truth under any form. Your dead, Pro, ther’s no Life in you. You just a yes man in ayes World. Unfortunately for you. It will end badly for you.

I can feel bad for you, but I can also let you suffer the consequences of your actions, and just let you go to hell, precisely as you wish! Like God Himself, I won’t take away your right of choice … NOR The Right that you suffer the consequences OF THAT CHOICE!

You state” - The likely hood of that happening is extremely low (in fact I've never met a transgender person in my whole life, that is how rare they are) That is nothing more than a preference, not a moral law.”

UNLESS they walk around naked? How are you going to know? You’ve met one, you just didn’t know nor ask! Blinders Pro, you walk around with blinders on … why are you surprised that you DON’T know!

The only natural law is Gods, which you don’t know. You have shown no knowledge of this subject matter to argue with. In fact you have YET to argue at all. Throwing ad this and ad that as responses. As if I have some obligation of Burden of Proof. That’s how you people operate Pro. You sit there without knowledge, without Proof saying the same thing … I’m going to stay in my bubble till somebody GIVES me all the evidence … I refuse to seek it myself, and until and UNLESS someone Else assumes the responsibility of proving it TO ME, I refuse to believe anything but what I think!

That’s atheists in a nutshell Pro.

But here’s the thing. Nobody has a responsibility to you BUT you! If you don’t accept that responsibility, You cannot expect anything but pity, from the rest of the populace!

The point is and HAS been proven Pro, you can deny the Facts, but it doesn’t alter the FACTS.
LGBT should NOT BE given Civil Rights as they have DEMONSTRATED actions abnormal and Destructive to all civilizations in History past. Their depravity resulted in the total annulations of Sodom and Gomorra. Yeah I know Pro YOU DON’T KNOW? Not surprised at all Pro you don’t SEEM to KNOW anything at all, but other people’s opinions, you have never done your OWN research so YOU have nothing to actually SAY about most any subject!

Were I to look at your debates, Discussions over the internet, I bet I can’t find a THING you actually know about huh? Just a bunch of smack talk? Saying nothing just spouting Cliche, giving No REAL insights either. Nope ain’t gonna waste my time, Pro, you just don’t have anything important to say!
you have become irrelevant Pro. You don't say anything that's factual, just opinionated. You provide no insights, given no substance to this debate? I cannot see any point in continuing a discussion with one who is unlearned of the subject matter and going to continue to just spout nonsense.
I do believe I've carried MY responsibility to provide TRUTH in this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
Pill_Junkie_Monkey

Pro

"Such crapola because some Scholar tells you an opinion don"t make it fact, especially tsince the beginning of time, AND as EVIDENCE not opinion has proven, vis a vis, what automatically happens immediately upon catastrophic occurrences, ie" rape pillage and plunder, (remember Katrina) , people will EAT EACH OTHER in desperate situations, gangs form and your pretended Brainiac"s, scramble for cover!" - Ah, the ought/is fallacy. You cannot get an ought from an is. Natural law/property rights is PRESCRIPTIVE, not DESCRIPTIVE. It tells people how to act justly.

"I HAVE no burden of proof as I said. The Facts are simple. One who doesn"t look at all, cannot Claim knowledge of subject matter as if they know , especially when it is plain the person refuses to study for himself!" - Nope, you're still shifting the burden of proof. You made a posit with no evidence, and I rejected it. Logic 101 bro.

"So as I said before, You CANNOT CLAIM knowledge of a Subject you have NEVER investigated except by opinions conjectures of OTHER people. This of course ... has nothing to do with some IMAGINED burden you liars (and that"s what that is " somebody somewhere lead you to believe that it is the Religious who have some imaginary responsibility to PROVE something to those to ignorant to look for themselves? WRONGO!" - Still shifting the burden, and nice ad hominem, does not matter who makes a posit. The posit is either true or false regardless of who made it.

"Tell me who dresses you? Who feeds you? Who teaches you? Nobody GIVES you anything it is YOU who MUST feed yourself, Dress yourself, Study the material provided to LEARN! So quit lying to yourself." - Uhm, Okay. I agree. I have no right to force anyone to provide for me. (What the hell does this have to do with LGBT rights or natural law/property rights

"Allow me to PROVE the only thing I am obligated BY God Himself to tell you? That"s ALL Christians?" God is an unproven posit. You're shaping your world view based off of a falsity.

Mark 16:14 Later as they were eating, Jesus appeared to the eleven and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."Do you see anything about Burden of proof? Nope, it states plainly tell you " period. You don"t look? You don"t believe " CONDEMNED!" - I'm terrified, I've been condemned to an imaginary place. Also, all further religious tripe will be ignored, until you prove it's validity.

"You see God states He has put right in FRONT of your own eyes all the proof you need, that YOU deny it"s Him who has done them is YOUR error! To which God adamantly tells YOU, that YOU are without excuse! End of story " YOUR being held accountable BY GOD to look and learn!" - When I look infront of me, I see your sophistry, not God :D

"Things that are useless are generally discarded! I AM the expert here not any other when it comes to God, because I KNOW God, you don"t, I have a relationship with the Real God" - You have relationship with an imaginary friend...

"I stated "Listen to you. You don"t HAVE any argument Do You?" You responded "- I don't need one. I just must prove your arguments false, as you are the one attempting to use force."" - I don't, I only need arguments for my posits, of which I've only made one, that being the natural law posit, which I provided a unbroken chain of logic from first principles. Everything else, is rejecting your posits.

"See? Deluded to the core. Playing games, ducking, dodging " No facts at all. Just opinions, false conjectures, and an inability to see truth under any form. Your dead, Pro, ther"s no Life in you. You just a yes man in ayes World. Unfortunately for you. It will end badly for you." - Not an argument.

"I can feel bad for you, but I can also let you suffer the consequences of your actions, and just let you go to hell, precisely as you wish! Like God Himself, I won"t take away your right of choice " NOR The Right that you suffer the consequences OF THAT CHOICE!" - Not an argument

"UNLESS they walk around naked? How are you going to know? You"ve met one, you just didn"t know nor ask! Blinders Pro, you walk around with blinders on " why are you surprised that you DON"T know!" - Most trans are pretty obvious, also saying I walk with 'blinders on' is not an argument

"The only natural law is Gods, which you don"t know. You have shown no knowledge of this subject matter to argue with. In fact you have YET to argue at all. Throwing ad this and ad that as responses. As if I have some obligation of Burden of Proof. That"s how you people operate Pro. You sit there without knowledge, without Proof saying the same thing " I"m going to stay in my bubble till somebody GIVES me all the evidence " I refuse to seek it myself, and until and UNLESS someone Else assumes the responsibility of proving it TO ME, I refuse to believe anything but what I think!" - First, God has not been proven to exist. You have the burden of proof because you want to use force, and you make the posit of God (I have the burden of proof for natural law, which I have met) Again, if something is true, it should be easy to prove. You claim to believe in God, yet you refuse to prove it. I believe in gravity, and I will do a test to prove it anytime you ask me :D

"That"s atheists in a nutshell Pro." - Yes it, most atheists use logic and reason from first principles to reject your bogus posits.

"The point is and HAS been proven Pro, you can deny the Facts, but it doesn"t alter the FACTS.
LGBT should NOT BE given Civil Rights as they have DEMONSTRATED actions abnormal and Destructive to all civilizations in History past. Their depravity resulted in the total annulations of Sodom and Gomorra." - It'd be nice if you'd supported you posit with something that isn't FICTION.

"Were I to look at your debates, Discussions over the internet, I bet I can"t find a THING you actually know about huh? Just a bunch of smack talk? Saying nothing just spouting Cliche, giving No REAL insights either. Nope ain"t gonna waste my time, Pro, you just don"t have anything important to say!" - Not an argument. Either my posits are true or they arent

"You don't say anything that's factual, just opinionated. You provide no insights, given no substance to this debate? I cannot see any point in continuing a discussion with one who is unlearned of the subject matter and going to continue to just spout nonsense." - I've only made one posit, and that being natural law/property rights, in which I provided an unbroken chain of logic from first principles.

"I do believe I've carried MY responsibility to provide TRUTH in this debate." - Bro, you quoted bible verses, I called BS, and then you tried to shift the burden of proof.

All you've done is appeal to a false authority, personally attack me. You're clearly angry because you're losing the debate. You didn't expect to run into someone who would call you on your BS, eh?
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

Your lack of ability to submit ANY argument in support of LGBT Civil Rights, has prompted an ending to our discusiions I"m afraid. In review you have submitted nothing but scholastic opinion, nothing with which the LGBT can prove beyond a doubt at all that they are nothing MORE than a group of Societies most degenerate sort.

You grounds for suggesting to grant civil Rights to them has been destroyed in reality and fact, by the proof of the LOSS of the civil rights of the greater portion of Society in an attempt to appease the lesser, group, vis a vis:

1. LOSS of majority populations Right of operating Business in CONUS, (Continental United States ) to deny service to customers based on their business and ethical spiritual beliefs in a privately owned and operated business, now FORCED by government to Service degenerates against their better judgement as Business owners.

2. LOSS of right of Free speech, if and when it exposes the Degeneracy of this porion of Society, by denial of Right to place posters in their own businesses repudiating this group.

3. LOSS of Right to provide merely a toileting service but now are Forced To at their own expense provide SPECIAL toileting for this degenerate group of Societies minority!

4. LOSS of right to call EVIL what IS evil, forceably threatened to be charged as HATE CRIME any attempt to expose this group for what it actually is. Sexual depravity!

Additionally it is a proven Medical FACT. That the ability for a human being to CHANGE SEX is and always WILL BE a FALSE reality.
1. Human DNA is unchangeable by the sexes. Male DNA remains Male.

2. Male Skeletal form REMAINS Male in its totality, only flesh is altered.

3. Altered flesh cannot produce feminine functions and is cosmetic only, as no uterus with which to provide estrogen in a natural state is specific to REAL FEMALES ALONE. Forcing society to provide false avenues of estrogen, for these degenerate and perverse persons, Soley based on SEXUAL gratification ALONE!

4. The EXACT SAME condition is EXACTLY mirrored in the attempt of FEMALES to alter their sexes. Thay remain, WHOLE Female except in outward appearance. DNA=FEMALE, Skeletal sytem = FEMALE . Testosterone production = 0 meaning Society MUST provide FALSE replacement therapy!

5. Society is being FORCED to "PRETEND" that theses perverse and degenerate persons are in FACT REAL ALTERED sexes, when ALL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE completely contradicts such assertions!

In closing I have satisfied in empirical evidence the requirements of this debate, the valid reasons why the granting of Civil Rights to this group serves only to ROB the rest of Society of THEIR Right to a decent environment with which to raise their children, for the sole purpose of allowing sexual deviants the sexual gratification which has and WILL always be contrary to good order in every Society. This being proved by the imposition of DEATH to them in many countries!

Certainly I have dutifully provided the required proof requested by the initiator of this debate himself, in his own statement:

quote" Sure, they're degenerates, but degeneracy does not violate natural law/property rights. "
Quote "As long as the "degenerates" are not hurting others,"then their actions are completely justified" Unquote!

They have butchered the property rights of business owners everywhere, without due process of the greatest part of Society - the rights of freedom of expression, to acquiesce a group of persons bent on sexual perversions alone! Having already destroyed 3 recent Civil Rights of the majority of Society testified in News coverage everywhere, no less! And continues to ambush the greater good and civil order of Society as a whole!

I thank the readers for their attention and ask that they become involved in the fight to retain OUR Civil liberties which is rapidly being chipped away in the name of unethical, immoral, and perverse conduct of the group known as LGBT.
I remind you of your oaths to yourselves to be true to yourself. Nothing provided here do you yourselves "Not " already know, from simple biology, this is why Medical text are not required ... this is stuff you have known for years! That IS ALL the proof you need!

As to my opponent?
You attempt to skirt your own responsibilities as an adult, to some fantasy of a nonexistent right to prove things, you are unwilling to study for yourself. In short. Your boring as a debate opponent, devoid of merit, devoid of reason, devoid of knowledge, merely regurgitating rumors, scholastic unproven nonsense, without the slightest empirical evidence!

I have proven by your own admission, of your lack of responsibility to society as a whole to prevent degeneracy from escalating, 2nd I have proven by your own admission it should " Not" be granted to people when it infringes upon the rights of others!

The prosecution REST. Again, I thank you the readers for your kind attention! Unless evidence is forthcoming rather than mere conjecture, rumor and tabloid trash. My responses hereafter, shall consist only of a reminder that the prosecution has rested, as there is no point in playing games with this opponent. The CASE is for all intended purposes CLOSED!
Debate Round No. 4
Pill_Junkie_Monkey

Pro

"Your lack of ability to submit ANY argument in support of LGBT Civil Rights, has prompted an ending to our discusiions I"m afraid. In review you have submitted nothing but scholastic opinion, nothing with which the LGBT can prove beyond a doubt at all that they are nothing MORE than a group of Societies most degenerate sort." - While I agree it is weird, I have proven from first principles the validity of natural law/property rights, and how it pertains to LGBT rights. Also, the active/positive has the burden of proof within a debate. Force is active, therefor those who wish to use force have the burden of proof. You wish to use force to violate natural law/property rights, thereby you have the burden of proof.

"You grounds for suggesting to grant civil Rights to them has been destroyed in reality and fact, by the proof of the LOSS of the civil rights of the greater portion of Society in an attempt to appease the lesser, group, vis a vis:" - No, you don't know what rights are. Rights are in a complete negative sense, and cannot deprive rights from others.

"1. LOSS of majority populations Right of operating Business in CONUS, (Continental United States ) to deny service to customers based on their business and ethical spiritual beliefs in a privately owned and operated business, now FORCED by government to Service degenerates against their better judgement as Business owners." - This is unjustified, as it violates natural law/property rights. This is not what I advocate.

"1. LOSS of majority populations Right of operating Business in CONUS, (Continental United States ) to deny service to customers based on their business and ethical spiritual beliefs in a privately owned and operated business, now FORCED by government to Service degenerates against their better judgement as Business owners." - Again, you should be able to refuse service, that is not what I am advocating for.

"3. LOSS of Right to provide merely a toileting service but now are Forced To at their own expense provide SPECIAL toileting for this degenerate group of Societies minority!" - Again, there should be no force. It should be up to a business owner.

"4. LOSS of right to call EVIL what IS evil, forceably threatened to be charged as HATE CRIME any attempt to expose this group for what it actually is. Sexual depravity!" - First off, being LGBT is not evil. However, I do not believe anyone should be charged with a hate crime for speaking out.

"Additionally it is a proven Medical FACT. That the ability for a human being to CHANGE SEX is and always WILL BE a FALSE reality." - And? Appeal to nature? Just because something is natural does not mean it is virtuous or immoral.

"In closing I have satisfied in empirical evidence the requirements of this debate, the valid reasons why the granting of Civil Rights to this group serves only to ROB the rest of Society of THEIR Right to a decent environment with which to raise their children, for the sole purpose of allowing sexual deviants the sexual gratification which has and WILL always be contrary to good order in every Society. This being proved by the imposition of DEATH to them in many countries!" - First, empirical evidence is not need, and is invalid when discussing rights and ethics. Its called Hume's Law, or Hume's Guillotine., moreover I do not want violate others rights, only for the government to protect their right to: Self owner ship, and ownership of property.

" They have butchered the property rights of business owners everywhere, without due process of the greatest part of Society - the rights of freedom of expression, to acquiesce a group of persons bent on sexual perversions alone! Having already destroyed 3 recent Civil Rights of the majority of Society testified in News coverage everywhere, no less! And continues to ambush the greater good and civil order of Society as a whole!" - Again, I am not advocating this. Strawman, after strawman.

"As to my opponent?
You attempt to skirt your own responsibilities as an adult, to some fantasy of a nonexistent right to prove things, you are unwilling to study for yourself. In short. Your boring as a debate opponent, devoid of merit, devoid of reason, devoid of knowledge, merely regurgitating rumors, scholastic unproven nonsense, without the slightest empirical evidence!" - ad hominem after ad hominem.

"I have proven by your own admission, of your lack of responsibility to society as a whole to prevent degeneracy from escalating, 2nd I have proven by your own admission it should " Not" be granted to people when it infringes upon the rights of others!" - I AGREE! It should not infringe on others rights! I think there has a big misunderstanding here
FollowerofChrist1955

Con

Again here is no argument from my opponent" merely opinions!The CASE is for all intended purposes CLOSED!

"1. LOSS of majority populations Right of operating Business in CONUS, (Continental United States ) to deny service to customers based on their business and ethical spiritual beliefs in a privately owned and operated business,

Opponent respose" - This is unjustified, as it violates natural law/property rights. This is not what I advocate.

"3. LOSS of Right to provide merely a toileting service but now are Forced To at their own expense provide SPECIAL toileting for this degenerate group of Societies minority!"

Opponents response "- Again, there should be no force. It should be up to a business owner.

"4. LOSS of right to call EVIL what IS evil, forceably threatened to be charged as HATE CRIME any attempt to expose this group for what it actually is. Sexual depravity!"

Opponent-- First off, being LGBT is not evil. However, I do not believe anyone should be charged with a hate crime for speaking out.

You see he's been wrong on everything else! And has stated depravity is not wrong ... obviously if depravity in his view is "NOT" evil, his wood is wet!

"Additionally it is a proven Medical FACT. That the ability for a human being to CHANGE SEX is and always WILL BE a FALSE reality."

opponent response- And? Appeal to nature? Just because something is natural does not mean it is virtuous or immoral.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 2 weeks ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Vvanadium ;
Question: What DETERMINES the sex of and infant?
Answer: The presence or absence of the Y chromosome

Question: CAN this conclusion of HARD-SCIENCE be Surgically altered?
Answer:NO

Question: Can this fact of Hard-science be altered by OPINION?
Answer: NO

Question: Can it be altered by administration of Medications?
Answer:NO

Question: CAN it be altered by Ones THINKING?
Answer: NO

Question:Does there exist any know Hard-Science that effects this ESTABLISHED FACT?
Answer: NO

Conclusion Humanity is caught up in a LIE of undeniable FACTS, which at their core CANNOT deviate from REALITY!

The above proves ALL LGBT live a LIE based on a thought not a FACT! There is no such thing in REALITY as changing sex, doesn't exist, won't exist, you can claim the lie, but you MUST EMBRACE that it in ALL REALITY IS A LIE and nothing more! Why? is the Y.

in all DNA samples collected now and at the time of your death ... the existence Y confirms to humanity and before God ... aww it's A GIRL!

Now as to your QUESTION?
perversion
1. the alteration of something from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended: "all great evil is the perversion of a good" synonyms: distortion, misrepresentation, falsification, travesty, misinterpretation, ... more
2. sexual behavior or desire that is considered abnormal or unacceptable. synonyms: deviance, abnormality, depravity, degeneracy, debauchery

Normal-according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle
conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern

American Standard: The 2000 U.S. Census Bureau found that homosexual couples constitute less than 1% of American households.

Question WHICH catagory does GAY fit into according to the FACTS? not opinion ... TRUTH?

Normal or Perversion? Every Soul KNOWS the answer and CAN deny truth. But CLAIM and own LIAR if you DO?
Posted by Vvanadium 2 weeks ago
Vvanadium
FollowerofChrist1955:
How exactly is "Gay" a synonym for pervert?
Posted by MRAAJ.evil 1 month ago
MRAAJ.evil
Aiiii Follower'

Stop being a nuisance, and get back to your long neglected studies, child!

Good one, real mature
Posted by Nd2400 1 month ago
Nd2400
Hey FollowerofChrist1955, you are accusing pro for not being factual, but how about you? You not being factual, you are not correct on what you are preaching.

You still haven't answered my questions... I guess you would hate your child if he/she was gay. I guess you would send them off to hell if you had the power to do so.

So i guess you never heard of equal rights or even equal pay...
You didn't look at yourself in the mirror yet have you? Because if you had you would be looking at a empty soul, and a person who is lost....
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 month ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Nd2400;
Stop being a nuisance, and get back to your long neglected studies child!
Posted by Nd2400 1 month ago
Nd2400
I don't need you to teach me anything. You know why because what ever you are preaching is wrong. You should look at yourself in the mirror because you are the one who is sinning if you want to actually believe in the bible. And you don't want to argue because you are wrong... You have no real facts behind you. You are also don't believe in equal rights do you. No if course not.

And you didn't answer my questions what would you do if you had a child that was gay? Would you still love them? Or cast them as a outcast?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 month ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Nd2400;
I'm sorry but you don't know far to much for me to concern myself with attempting to teach you AND battle the sinners, your gonna have to accept responsibility for your LACK of walk, and do better on your own. Best wishes to you, otherwise your gonna be one of the 1 Corinthians 3:15 Christians and I can't prevent that!
Posted by Nd2400 1 month ago
Nd2400
How um i lost? When you don't even speak the word if God. You are actually speaking fir the antichrist.do you know gid loves everybody. But i guess i don't actually read the bible. You think everyone going to hel expect you because you don't like gays. You don't understand equal rights. You can't prove people go to hell. You have no evidence on who go to hell or who don't. Even the bible don't prove anything. The reason i mention the bible alot because you don't even attempt to follow the teaching if the book. Let me ask you something if you had a daughter or son and they were gay would you still love them? Or you would just kill them and wish they never were alive...
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 month ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Nd2400;
you should speak to argrange, your both equally ignorant of Gods word! A map and a Flashlight your still lost!
Posted by MRAAJ.evil 1 month ago
MRAAJ.evil
Yeh my man knew he couldn't win the other one, so he started again lol pathetic. DW well just keep at it lads.
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