The Instigator
ForGrowthOfMind
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
brontoraptor
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

LGBT People Should Have Equal Rights

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/21/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 725 times Debate No: 92970
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (0)

 

ForGrowthOfMind

Pro

Sexual orientation should have no bearing on a person's rights. Although the morality of sexual orientation is different from person to person all men and women are equal regardless of who they choose to love or sleep with.
brontoraptor

Con

Right:

appropriate, condign, conscientious, deserved, due, equitable, ethical, fitting, good, honest, honorable, justifiable, lawful, legal, legitimate, merited, moral, proper, requisite, righteous, rightful, scrupulous, stand-up, suitable, true, upright, virtuous

www.thesaurus.com/browse/right

*

There is no feasable way to give every person of the LGBT community "equal rights".

Example?

There is no way to give a "born male" LGBT the right to give vaginal birth to a baby because there is no such available proccess.

*

There is no way to give a short LGBT person the right to be 7'6" tall because no known proccess exists to fulfill this concept yet.

*

Pro:

"Sexual orientation should have no bearing on a person's rights."

Not true.

If a "born male" LGBT has the surgery to become female, do they have the right to play female sports? Do they have the right to break women's world records at the Olympics? If they do, why can I not participate?

*

Does an LGBT person have equal rights with monkeys to climb up a tree like a chimp and swing from branch to branch while eating bananas and throwing poop? No. Only monkeys have those rights.

*

Does a "born female" LGBT have the right to get someone pregnant penis to vagina? No. It's not possible yet.

*

If a "born male" who claims to be a female trapped in a male body can go in a female restroom, why can't a straight man? The straight man could lie and declare himself "sexually confused" for whatever motive he might have defying the proccess. That's not equal rights anyways. It's giving the transgender person more rights, giving them rights to either bathroom when one has a longer line, etc.

*

Rights:

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.


*

An LGBT does not have equal rights with law enforcement in enforcement situations unless that individual is a part of law enforcement.

An LGBT does not have equal rights with military personel in combat situations unless they themselves are a part of the military.

An LGBT does not have equal rights with a teacher in his/or her class to teach the kids unless they themselves are the teacher.

An LGBT does not have equal rights with the President to execute Executive orders unless they themselves are the President.

An LGBT does not have equal rights with Olympians to run in the Olympics unless they are fast enough to make the team.
Debate Round No. 1
ForGrowthOfMind

Pro

CON:
"There is no way to give a "born male" LGBT the right to give vaginal birth to a baby because there is no such available process".

REBUTTAL:
While it is true a born male cannot give vaginal birth that in no way implies that if they could they wouldn"t have the right to. We as humans are forced to live in the physical world we inhabit, and with it comes certain impossibilities. I only argue that LGBT people should have the right to, not that all would be able to. Freedom of speech is a "right" of the people of America as written in the Constitution, however if a person is unable to speak, write, or "voice" their opinion in any way it does not mean that the right does not apply to them, it only means they are unable to accomplish it.

CON:
"Do they have the right to break women's world records at the Olympics? If they do, why can I not participate?"

REBUTTAL:
Equal rights does not imply equal acceptance into independent organization. A male who has an operation to become female, has every right to attempt to enter the Olympics to compete in a female sport. Just as every male who doesn"t have an operation does. An organization is its own social establishment and such it operates based on the rights of the people within the group, as long as it follow the rules it originally described. If a male wants to join the female sport and the group doesn"t want to accept them that is their own right to do so. The male can still run, or high jump, or do any other sport they wish to do, but the organization doesn"t have to consider it as a part of their organization. If however the rules simply state gender by affiliation instead of by birth then anyone who affiliates themselves as female should be allowed to join. Note my argument is for SEXUAL orientation and not gender.

CON:
"If a "born male" who claims to be a female trapped in a male body can go in a female restroom, why can't a straight man?"

REBUTTAL:
I would like to note again the debate is about equal rights of people of differing SEXUAL orientation, not gender. If a right is given to a person to use a bathroom based on the rules of a facility then everyone has the right to use the bathroom as described by the facility. Whether or not a transgender person should be able to use a bathroom of their choosing depends on the rules of the facility. If the facility states the only requirement to use a bathroom is gender affiliation then they have the right to use the bathroom of whichever gender they affiliate with. It is up to the laws of a facility and organization to determine the rights of the people who use them. I do not believe however bathrooms should be restricted because a person is gay, or of a differing sexuality.

MAIN REBUTTAL:
It is true if you are not a police officer you can"t legally arrest anyone, it is true if you are not in the military you cannot legally enter facilities meant for military personnel only. These are rules set up by the government, I am not arguing against laws. My argument is if a right is given to men and women to join the police, or the military, or whatever organization, be it based on gender or not, the person's sexual orientation should have no bearing on whether or not they qualify. If a person is transgender they should be allowed to follow the laws as originally described. If the law says gender of time at birth is what matters then they should follow that rule, if it simply says affiliated gender then both transgender, and non-transgender should be able to follow the rules of whichever gender they affiliate with. If a law is made or changed to be against a person based on sexual orientation however, that is unjust. What difference is there between an LGBT person and a straight person that should cause them to be discriminated against. Sexual Orientation Discrimination is not currently illegal based on our current laws, but it should be. The Equal Rights Amendments (http://www.equalrightsamendment.org...) covers issues pertaining to gender, although lacking in information on transgender. There however, needs to be an Equal Right Amendment for gay, lesbian, and bisexual people to have no fear of discrimination based on their sexual orientation. That is if a straight person of a specific gender has the right to do something a non-straight should have that same right.
brontoraptor

Con

Pro:

"Sexual orientation should have no bearing on a person's rights."

*

Pro:

"All men and women are equal regardless of who they choose to love or sleep with."

There is no equal anyone. It doesn't exist, nor should it. The words, "We should all be equal," are a utopian concept that does not reward hard work, rewards slothfulness, and suffocates greatness. If true equality existed, we would have never gotten this guy...

Michael Jordan, the greatest basketball player of all time-


Or this woman...

Ellen DenGeneres


Billy Graham, World Ambassador


-

Rudolph Guiliani-



-

Margaret Thatcher-


*

Adrian Rogers-


*

If the LGBT community wants "equal rights", they must fight for them. Reality dictates that for a group to get "equal rights", they will never get them for free, but will inevitably have to fight to the death for them.

The black rights movement-

Martin Luther King Jr.

"I have seen the Mountaintop"


Barack Obama-


Mia Love-


*

The Women's rights movement-

"I declare to you that woman must not depend upon the protection of man, but must be taught to protect herself, and there I take my stand."

-Susan B. Anthony

"Mr. President how long must women wait to get their liberty? Let us have the rights we deserve!"

-Alice Paul

Alice Paul-


Susan B. Anthony-


*

If the LGBT community truely wants real equality, here I administer some advice.

"There never will be complete equality until women themselves help to make laws and elect lawmakers."

-Susan B. Anthony

There shall never be another season of silence until women have the same rights men have on this green earth."

-Susan B. Anthony

"Unless women are prepared to fight politically they must be content to be ignored politically."

-Alice Paul

*

LGBT's have taken a position of inferiority in society. I believe the mistake has been allowing a divide between them and the majority that has planted an us against them mentality, which will never change anything for the better for them. It simply allows the carnal, flawed human side of the majority to lock the door of a two-way conversation. Attacking the majority's beliefs is defeating. They must appeal to the deeper, best part of the majority's beliefs. That is just reality.

The black rights and female movements appealed to the conscience of America, to the mindset of the majority. What majority? Christians...so shall it be neccessary for the LGBT community.

Jesus Christ-

"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin cast the first stone at her."

(John 8:7)

"Do not judge others, so that you will not be judged."

(Matthew 7:1)

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

(John 13:34)

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

(Matthew 7:12)

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

(Matthew 22:37-40)

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

(Matthew 7:2)

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

(Luke 6:37)

“And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, ‘Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

(Mark 2:17)

"Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved well. But whosoever has been forgiven little loves little."

(Luke 7:47)

"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

(Matthew 21:31)

"For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not believe him."

(Matthew 21:32)
Debate Round No. 2
ForGrowthOfMind

Pro

CON: "There is no equal anyone. It doesn't exist, nor should it"

REBUTTAL: You've taken a different interpretation to this sentence than I had intended, none the less I had left it very vague. To clarify I meant equality in reference to their rights. Men and women should never have their respective rights taken away based on sexual orientation. The gender of the person they choose to love, sleep with, or live with should have no bounds on their individual rights. And further more it is unjust and unrighteous that there are not laws currently in place to protect those of the LGBT community from discrimination.

CON: "If the LGBT community wants "equal rights" they must fight for them"

REBUTTAL: I do not disagree the world is full of many different types of people being discriminated against and if any group of people wants to make a change they have to fight against the ones who are keeping them from their rights. I did not mean to imply that it was easy to get equal rights. I did not say there would not have to be sacrifices made for the cause of justice. I only mean to say it is unjust that it is the way of the world.

Discrimination: "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person belongs rather than on INDIVIDUAL MERIT"(capitalized for emphasis) [www.dictionary.com/browse/discrimination]

My reasoning behind the unjustness of it is made from the definition of discrimination above. When the bases of why you don't allow equal rights to a person is based simply on the persons beliefs or the group they belong to, but has nothing to do with their merits as an individual that is the unjustice. If a group of people is seen as a danger to the social order and we'll being of others than special consideration should be given to see if they are truly a danger before we strip rights away from them. However, we have been working backwards, stripping the rights away from a group before they are proven dangerous and then fighting the groups who call for unjustice until enough blood and tears have been shed that they are given back the rights they should have always had. That is the way of today's world and the LGBT community needs to continue their fight if they ever wish to step above the discrimination, but I argue that there is no question about the unjustness of their situation.

CON: "The black rights and female movments appealed to the conscience of America, to the minset of the majority."

REBUTTAL: Yes it is a statistical fact that the majority of the American people identify themselves as Christian. This however makes it even more unjust that discrimination is continued against anyone. You stated the Christian supposed beliefs quite well I remark back to (John 13:34) (Matthew 7:1) (Luke 6:37). All the quations are examples that if Christians truly are the ones in control then regardless of how the LGBT community has acted it is nothing short of blasphemy to deny a gay man the same rights as a straight man. It is blasphemy to deny rights to anyone for any reason any where if a person is following the beliefs of the bible. However, there seems to be an impression that the LGBT community has failed to try and takes sides or appeal to Christians below I give examples of associations and groups who have tried to find a path both Christians and LGBT community members could follow.

1. http://www.gaychurch.org...
2. https://www.believeoutloud.com...
3. http://www.gaychristian101.com...

Unless their is warrant in the Christian religion to make claim that only special groups deserve the forgiveness, kindness, and acceptance that is so heavily claimed in the bible to be included in the lives of any true Christian then I claim descriminating against any group is unchristian and therfore any person who fights for laws that are discriminatory are not a true Christians.

MAIN REBUTTAL:
There is no excuse for discrimination against the LGBT community. It is true there are extremist groups that spread violence and hate, but those groups discriminate against others to fit their agenda and they reside on both sides of the argument. These groups who presue discrimination are unjust, just as creating discriminatory laws or refusing to create laws that prevent discrimination is unjust. Christians have the right to preach their beliefs and dislike any groups they wish. Freedom of speech is a right by law, but forcing an agenda on a country to descriminate against any group without just cause or merit is an evil agenda."
brontoraptor

Con

Pro:
"Christians have the right to preach their beliefs and dislike any groups they wish."


I don't particularly think that Christians in general "dislike" or hate people in the LGBT community. If the majority of Christians were as secularists try to convince themselves of, the 10 commandments would still be standing in public institutions, gay marriage would have never passed, secular people would be hard pressed to ever find friends, and blacks would not have equal rights. At the time of the Civil War, America was as close to 100% Christian as is reasonably possible and had a strong white majority. The racism and bigotry that some declare still strongly exists ignores a lot of facts to feed itself to make the psychology of it all well overexagerated.


False Dichotomy by ommission of "Declared Bigotry"-
Fact:
The Civil War was fought by Christians against Christians.


False Dichotomy by ommission of "Declared Racism"-
Fact:
The Civil War was fought by whites against whites. And... blacks had slaves.


False Dichotomy by ommission of "Declared Sexism"-
Fact:
The victory for Women's rights was strongly influenced by men.


*


Reality 101
There was a war and many movements for African Americans to get the right to be counted equal with Whites.


There were many movements and protests over many, many years for women to get equal rights with men.


Christians fought for the right to their beliefs and the simple right to exist. Quakers crossed the ocean to get to America for religious freedom. Early Christians throughout history and throughout the world were/are killed as amusement and were/are genocided for their beliefs.
*


Dictionary Definition-
Deserve:
"to have earned something"


*


With the fact that there are differing ideologies, opinions, beliefs, and political ideals, what is "moral", "correct", "good", "fair", etc is semantics. This is why we have an Executive, Judicial, and Legislative branch to vote and/or decide what rights people have.


Thus, if the LGBT community feels that it is being treated with a sense of "lack of equal rights", it needs to arm up and represent itself as other groups do.








*


The point? If you want something, go get it.
(Fight for it-short video)





(Matthew 7:7)
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you."
*


The point? If you do not fight, nothing will ever change. You want equality that you feel you are not receiving? March the Capital Building, campaign, become representatives, lawyers, and leaders. Shout out what you want. Demand what you think is right. Do whatever it takes, no matter what it takes. And...get help. There are millions upon millions of straight people, Christians, men, women who would stand with the LGBT community. But it will demand leadership and tremendous effort.


(Support for Orlando-short video)





(The U.S. shows support for Orlando-short video)


*


Dinesh D'souza and Jessie Jackson were once in a debate. In the debate Jackson spoke of the horrific racism in the United States today. When D'souza pointed out arguments contrary to Jackson's claim, Jackson said it was "unspoken racism". D'souza, who was of the same skin color as Jackson realized something in the debate. Jackson had been raised to feel this way. D'souza did not see it as racism because he was a foreigner. He had seen what racism really looks like. He said that Jackson was comparing America to a "Utopia" that did not and will not ever exist. D'souza was comparing America to other parts of the world that really exist. In my opinion Jackson had an overzealous version of the "racism" in the United States. Does serious racism exist here? Yes. From both sides, but not in the majority.


This is what real persecution looks like.





Here is a list of 10 countries where homosexuality is punishable by death.


*


I make this point based on my lack of knowledge of the LGBT "inequality" because I'm not sure what the inequality is exactly. Is it a serious offense by the non-LGBT community, or is it a baseless claim? Here's what I do know.


Gay marriage is legal in the U.S.


Homosexuals can adopt children.


They got these rights in a country where the majority of people are not LGBT.


They received heavy support from Christians and secular straight people after the shooting in Orlando.




http://www.bbc.com...


My point? How about giving the United States and Western society some credit. Only in this culture could we even have this discussion. The American non-LGBT community is not the enemy of the LGBT community. ISIS, nations under Sharia Law like Saudi Arabia where they administer beheadings, stoning and death for homosexuality, and the minority of the West who literally hate based on sexual preferences are the enemy.

Christianity is not the "great enemy" of the LGBT community. As Richard Dawkins, Atheist author once said,"The decline of Christianity is a conflicting thing for me because it may be a defense against something worse."

*

So...If the LGBT community needs us to do something:


1)They have to let it be known what it is exactly they need or feel slighted on.

2)Work with us on the Conservative side to protect this country from those who want to kill LGBT's, Christians, Atheists, and Agnostics, and help us stop the unvetted flow of people into this country who want to kill all of us. Allow us to monitor who is coming here and see if they come from "danger nations" that are incompatable with democracy and secularized law meant to work for the good of all.

In this debate we are yet to adrress what the inequality towards the LGBT community actually is.
Debate Round No. 3
ForGrowthOfMind

Pro

Con seems to be under the impression that I don't understand the hatred and violence towards people in other parts of the world. The death, desimbodiment, and the torture that people from other cultures face on a daily bases. The blood thirsty genocide that has run rampant, and left pieces of innoccent life thrown over the dirt like fertilizer. However, I know of the violence and brutality that is happening to people who live in true inequality. The wrongness of those crimes are evident in themselves and I agree they are more dire than marriage or housing rights. They of course deserve more attention than the LGBT community here in America. It has been that case for many years. Minorities of religion, sexuality, and gender face much larger challenges in other parts of the world. My argument however is that even the smallest amount of inequality based on sexual orientation is unjust. I apply this statement to any part of the world where any person is not granted the same rights as a person with the same gender based on a trivial thing such as sexuality.

Con states that you need to fight for what you believe in, again I do not have, nor ever stated arguments against this. Many people gave up their lives for the causes they believed in to get their rights. Con has posted many examples of this and again I acknowledge that the LGBT community needs to stand up and fight any issues of inequality that still remain. However there are many, many organizations fighting for the LGBT community. All you need to do is look at the Stone Wall riots of 1969 to see that LGBT community has been fighting for its rights.
Other organizations fighting in the LGBT communities interest:
"http://www.hrc.org...
"http://www.lalgbtcenter.org...
"http://www.milkclub.org...
"http://www.logcabin.org...

In regards to the lack of knowledge of LGBT "inequality". I don't mean to stand here and say to you LGBT community members are being dehumizaied and left dead in the streets. I understand full well the LGBT community has made great strides to change the inequalites that faced them. Without the work of the LGBT community gay marriage would not be as accepted state-wide, and adoption would not be possible. However, I still say to you there are other inequalities that still exist today. What inequalities you ask? For starts the Fair Housing Act does not cover protection against discriminating based on sexual orientation.
"(Source: http://portal.hud.gov...)
What does this mean? It means landlords can legally not allow an LGBT person to rent or buy a house simply based on the their sexual orientation. This also means LGBT people do not have protection from eviction based on discrimination.

LGBT people also do not have protection against workplace discrimination the private sector. (Source: http://www.nolo.com...) The ENDA act in favor of protecting LGBT people from discrimination has been trying to pass for years but has been shut down each and every time. ( https://www.congress.gov...). Do you still deny the LGBT community faces no inequality in this country?

Closing Argument:
I would like to bring this debate back to its original topic. People deserve equal rights regardless of sexual orientation. That is a simple idea. There is not logical reason to deny a man a right given to another man based on the fact that they are gay. It is unethical and immoral. That is my argument and that is why giving straight and gay men and women the same rights as eachother is the right thing to do. Do you deny this? Is your argument against equality? I agree that it is impossible to have a utopian like equality that is not what i am arguing for. My argument is if a man has a right all men should have the same right and if a woman has a right all women should have the same right. Unless there is a way you can prove that LGBT people don't deserve equality than there is no reason they should not have equal rights.
brontoraptor

Con

Pro:
"However, I know of the violence and brutality that is happening to people who live in true inequality."

Really? Which non-Western country are you from? I was born in Somalia.

*

Pro:
"it is nothing short of blasphemy to deny a gay man the same rights as a straight man."

Don't think so.

Blasphemy:
"an act of cursing or reviling God."

www.dictionary.com/browse/blasphemy

*

Pro:
"It is unethical and immoral."

Define unethical and immoral.

*

Pro:
"Is your argument against equality?"

What equality? They can get married, adopt children, and even get tax breaks as such. What else? Ability to give birth vaginally as a man? Gonna have to wait on science...

*

Pro:
"My argument is if a man has a right all men should have the same right and if a woman has a right all women should have the same right."

Which right do the LGBT community lack that heterosexuals have again?
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ForGrowthOfMind 1 year ago
ForGrowthOfMind
brontoraptor: on that we both agree on I see far too many lazy kids expecting handouts, but to put blame on the new liberal group would be like me saying conservatives are responsible for all the gun violence. It's a bias opinion that has little truth. I'm not a liberal by the way, just pointing out that it's both sides that are growing lazy. But then again I still see kids working night and day in the college libraries racking their brains trying to make a better tomorrow. All kinds of people are working to make the world better I wouldn't give up you faith in humanity yet.
Posted by brontoraptor 1 year ago
brontoraptor
The new mentality is , you don't haveto work for anything. It should just happen. Well, it doesn't just happen. The work ethic of 1960 America disappeared. Things should just magically happen. The new group of liberals live in fairytale land.
Posted by brontoraptor 1 year ago
brontoraptor
@ Spencercrat123. Then why aren't they?
Posted by ForGrowthOfMind 1 year ago
ForGrowthOfMind
Crede: How so, what groups are you referring to in particular that represent the LGBT community that are fighting for "extra" rights?
Posted by Crede 1 year ago
Crede
They already have equal rights. They want extra rights.
Posted by spencercrat123 1 year ago
spencercrat123
The LGBT community does not have to win over Christians to obtain equality just because Christians are the majority and had to withstand persecution. The battle for equality is most often won in the courts, where religious beliefs and opinions have no bearing.
Posted by ForGrowthOfMind 1 year ago
ForGrowthOfMind
Apologies for the misspellings my phone autocorrected a few words and I mistakenly hit post comment instead of spell check.
Posted by ForGrowthOfMind 1 year ago
ForGrowthOfMind
I don't disagree that biologically male born humans can a physical advantage over female born humans. That is a statistical fact. I again am not arguing gender equality. Your are correct that true utopian equality is unreachable. What I am arguing is that if a born male has rights than a born male of a different secular orientation should have the same rights. Obviously things get complicated with Transgenders. My argument for that is it is up to the organization or the facility to determine what the sex is and how the rights would work. Again this is not a case for gender, if the rules are gender as stated in the birth certificate than that's the rules. My argument is that if say they are considered a woman by law than they should get the same rights that apply to a woman who is not Transgender
Posted by Masonh928 1 year ago
Masonh928
Even if s/he does get surgery to fit their beliefs, that does not nullify that their body is still what it was born. It is also evident that male bodies have a biological advantage which should be taken into account, in the event that they should do so; moreover, that would not be fair to compete against natural born woman, who do not have that biological advantage.
Posted by Masonh928 1 year ago
Masonh928
Obviously as Con stated it's not possible; however, that would be as to define a 'right' which is subjective, therefor technically impossible to make a decision.
No votes have been placed for this debate.