Debate Rounds (4)
All peoples are protected under the constitution regardless of religion, beliefs, and/or cultural and religious backgrounds. If a someone wishes to express their beliefs in a non-harmful and non-violent way they are allowed to do so, whether it be advocating a certain behaviour or expressing their distaste against a behaviour . However, emergency services, State and Federal Government, as well as all those holding government jobs, must treat all with fairness and equality.
Proposition 1062 was very unconstitutional due to the fact that it not only allowed Government officials to discriminate against the LGBTQA community, but that it also allowed Police Officers, Firefighters, and Emergency Doctors to decline their services to members of the LGBTQA community. This could have been highly dangerous to members of this community as they will be unhelped in times of need.
This law is a form of unequal segregation and would have brought much harm to the LGBTQA community.
I am in agreement with the concept that the LGBTQA community should not be denied any services, because that is a clear attack on their human rights. However, the lifestyle that the LGBTQA community chooses to persue is blatantly sinful, and wrong in the eyes of God. It is stated clearly in the Bible that homosexuality, and other deviations of sexuality, are sinful (Leviticus 18:22). The Bible is also very clear that no homosexual will enter into the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is God's holy and perfect word, and that everything in the Bible is undoubtedly TRUE. God never intended for a man to lie with a man, or a woman with a woman; this behavior is detestable.
The LGBTQA community exhibits behavior that has changed the way God intended this world to function.
As I have expressed my personal views on this subject , I am extremely interested in knowing your personal views on the matter. What are your religious views on God, the Bible, and homosexuality?
I do believe in the existence of the Christian God.Although I believe in the Christian God, I do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I read the Bible more openly and take it more as a guideline for life rather than a literal account of the past.
As for Homosexuality in the Bible. It says that "The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality". is contrary to sound doctrine."(1 Timothy 1:10). This is showing that Homosexuality is not something that should be partaken in. However, the punishment that were given in Leviticus 20:13 was made void when Jesus gave his life on the cross, along with the other things banned in Leviticus (Seafood, touching dead pigs, etc.). These things, as show in these verses, were made null, John 1:16-17, Acts 13:39, Romans 2:25-29, 8:1-4, 1 Corinthians 9:19-21, Galatians 2:15-16, Ephesians 2:15.
We shouldn't persecute Homosexuals. Jesus did not teach bigotry and hatred. Jesus taught us to show compassion regardless of sin. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37)
You speak about homosexuality in the Old Testament (under Moses' law) and how the law was changed after Jesus' sacrifice. It is true that now we live by grace but homosexuality is still a sin condemned by God. I'm in agreement that the punishment given back then has been erased after the death of Jesus, but it' still an abomination before God(as we see in the New Testament too).We have no right to persecute homosexuals because Jesus forgave everyone "no matter what sin was committed. Like you quoted from the Bible "He will not cast anyone away." However, He did NOT forgive us so that we can continue sinning and going against God's principles. His grace is not a license to sin. Besides, we are only forgiven if we repent of our sins.
Homosexuals don't believe they are sinning against God. As a matter of fact, they believe God made them that way and therefore don't see it as a sinful choice. You state that you believe in the Christian God and that you follow the Bible as a guide. Does this mean you believe the Bible is God's Holy Word? Do you believe God has given us this book to instruct us on how to live a life that honors Him?What is unclear to me, is that you state you use the Bible as a guideline for life and not a literal account of the past. What are your beliefs about the past (which I take it, you're referring to the Old Testament)? Does this mean that even though you read the Bible and use it as a guideline, you disregard the Old Testament? I would appreciate a clarification in order to understand your argument better. Also, can you please clarify how you state in your profile that you support gay marriage and yet wrote in your argument that people should not partake" in homosexuality? I'm confused with the contradiction since you can't support what you don't believe in.
Thanks man! Looking forward to our next round!
(1) The Flood did not destroy civilizations that were around during the time it is estimated to have occurred (2500 BC). The Egyptians and the Chinese were still around.
(2) The Bible says the earth is flat. Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, Matthew 4:8
(3) Nazareth was not around during the first century AD. In the Book of Joshua (19:10-16) when it talks about the settling of the tribe of Zebulon if does not say anything about Nazareth, the Talmud does not speak of Nazareth even though it mentions 63 other Galilean towns, and no historian and/or geographer mentions Nazareth until the 4th century.
(4) The Bible claims bats are birds (Leviticus 11:13-19)
As for the Old Testament as a whole, I read it as a collection of proverbs that each teach a lesson (Genesis 37:1-36, Genesis 4:1-16, Judges 13-16) and it is good to follow most of these lessons and use them to help you in life, but because of reasons previously stated I do not take it as a literal account of history.
I would also like to apologize for appearing to contradict myself. I would like to further explain how I can not approve of Homosexuality, yet still advocate for their right to marriage.
My opinion on the homosexual marriage issue is that, although I do not 100% agree with a homosexuals actions, I will not deprive them of their right to do what they wish (as long as it does not cause harm to anyone). It is not the right of government to take away rights of one group in order to meet the wants of another. As Thomas Jefferson says in the Declaration of Independence "All men are created equal."
As Frederic Bastiat expresses, it is not the place of Government to pick and choose who is allowed to have liberty, their job is to ensure liberty for all (http://bastiat.org...). I consider the right to marriage a right that we should all possess and that right should be expressed by all (as long as they want to get married). However, I also believe in the right to deny services (as long as it is not in a life threatening situation) and think people that find Homosexuality, among other things, detestable can express their opinion in a non-harmful way.
"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)." -Ayn Rand
As for your discussion of the Bible, you make a good argument. Some of the examples given are a matter of interpretation. However, the Bible is filled with accounts and stories that are undoubtedly accurate. There are copies of manuscripts that show the Bible has been translated accurately. I will not get deeper into this because this is our last round and this topic alone needs a few more rounds. Instead, I would rather you clarify something else for me. Your opinions were not clear when I asked if you considered the Bible, which was written by men, but inspired by God, to be God's Holy Word? Or do you see it as a historical book with many contradictions? Here is where I am confused: You claim to be a Deist, from your profile, but throughout our debate you seem to contradict this. An example would be the fact that you quote the Bible; as a Christian would do to prove its validity. All your quotes about homosexuality and believing it is a sin come from the mind of God, which appears to be part of your belief system.
As I go back to an earlier round and see all your Bible quotes, including the death of Jesus on the cross, it all seems extremely contrary to Deism. You either believe the Bible and the Judeo-Christian God, or believe Deism. It is because of the Bible that we know of God. Which means if you believe He is the one true God, as you claimed earlier, you learned this from the Bible. We cannot pick and choose what we like from this Holy Book. If we claim to believe the Bible then we must embrace all of it. Deist believe God created us, but then sort of left us alone. They believe there is no interaction with Him through prayer, for example. They do not believe in miracles, The Trinity, prophecies, and so much more! Deists deny the immortality of the soul and they live their lives depending on their reasoning. What would be the point then to even read His word as a guide? Why did you state that you, a proclaimed Deist, use the Bible, God's Holy Word, as a guideline for your life? Were you raised as a Deist or a Christian? I would greatly appreciate that being clarified as we finish out our debate.
Bro, it has been a blast debating with you! Even though we have different views, you were never defensive or rude. You have expressed yourself intelligently and politely. Please be very clear in answering my questions in order for me to understand your personal views about Deism (not other Deists) since there are many belief systems when it comes to this religion. Thank you for your time and maybe we can do this again in the future!
My specific Deistic belief is that God caused the initial event that creates the universe (Big bang or whatever happened). However, God begins the event in such a perfect way as to allow for man"s eventual existence. After the creation of the universe Natural Law takes the reigns and the universe becomes how we see it as today.
After billions of years pass we see the emergence of basic life on earth. Evolution takes place and after another couple billion years the first humanoids walk the earth. God, proud of man, breaks man"s tie with Natural Law, giving him free will. Time passes and God sees that man misuses his free will. God, unhappy with the way man had lived, gives man guides on how to live his life so that all of mankind may live peacefully. God then let man make his own decisions so that man would be the one to seal his fate.
It sounds a bit silly now that it"s typed out, but I guess that"s what I believe. Not really sure if that is deism. If it"s not ,then can someone point me to what belief this is most close to in the comments.
As for picking and choosing parts of the Bible, I do so because I cannot believe that God would allow me to stone my wife to death or sell my daughter to slavery. I think that, although there is evidence showing the Bible has not been altered for a long time, things still were put in that was not according to God's will. There are also the scientific and historical errors that I mentioned before.
I do believe in the immortality of a soul and the existence of heaven and hell.
I was raised Christian, but I did not/ do not want to blindly believe things that don"t have any real proof besides one book. So I don't read the bible literally and take actual evidence as my account of the past. I don"t want to be an Atheist or Agnostic though, I like believing there is a God that cares for me instead of just nothing. I like believing that if I behave I will go to heaven and see my family happy. I guess I"m confused as to my religious standpoint because I don't really pay as much attention to it. I normally just study economics or politics and not religion.
Anyway, thanks for showing an Interest in my beliefs. It"s been nice talking to you, you were really nice. I guess we did get off topic, but this was more fun than a full out debate. Good luck on any future debates you might have!
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