The Instigator
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points
The Contender
Puck
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

LM CLassic Semi-finals: Puck vs Logical-Master

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 9,092 times Debate No: 10600
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (60)
Votes (7)

 

Logical-Master

Pro

Here we go!

Greetings to the judges and to my esteemed opponent and welcome. With formalities out of the way, let us begin

===============
Team Logical-Master: |
===============

1) Apocolypse - http://x-men.wikia.com...
2) Amazo (base form) - http://en.wikipedia.org...
3) Doomsday - http://en.wikipedia.org...
4) Batman - http://en.wikipedia.org...
5) Spider-man - http://en.wikipedia.org...

Team Puck

1) Deadpool
2) Sage
3) Spiral
4) Mr Sinister
5) Engineer

A ful description of his team can be found here: http://www.debate.org...

Since my opponent is admittedly a tough customer, I'm gonna have to pull out all stops in order to stand a chance in this debate!

===================
PHASE ONE: SPEED BLITZ |
===================

Instantly as the battle begin, Apocolypse uses telepathy to locate every presence capable of producing thought in the city. Usually, something along the lines of cerebro would be needed to boost one's telepathic powers to the point of finding specific people in an entire city, but since the rules stipulate that combatants are the only people involved, this shouldn't be necessary.

Apocolypse locates Mr. Sinister, telepathically gives the location to Doomsday who starts the battle by heading in his direction with his incomprehensible speed. He then proceeds to grab the powerful psychic with his great strength and directly throw him out of the city as hard as he can. All of this is done in nearly an instant. With Mr. Sinister out of the city, he is disqualified.

Sources: Note my Doomsday link under the powers and abilities section as it clearly states that Doomsday is as fast as Superman. Given that the two have fought on many occasions with Superman going all out, only to barely escape the battle alive, this certainly seems to be the case. Also, observe this link: http://img367.imageshack.us...

It states that Superman is moving at the speed of light (nevermind the fact that this is WHILE being hindered by TWO black holes at once). Moving fast enough to take out Dr Sinister before he can react is WILL happen based on this information.

Since no one else on my opponent's team can move that quickly, he could very well do the same to the rest of them. But for the purpose of efficiency, I shall argue more than just that.

===========
PHASE TWO: Powering up Amazo |
===========

Apocolypse and Spider-Man allows Amazo to duplicate their powers. Amazo then proceeds to use Apocolypse's powers of bio molecular alteration to grow to a height large enough for him to have a good view of the in and outs of the city, but short enough to not exactly reach the cities height limit. Immediately, he notices Doomsday (who has just easily dispatched Mr Sinister) and duplicates his powers. Amazo now has Doomsday great speed and proceeds to monitor the streets of NYC searching out for the remaining participants of my opponent's team so that he may duplicate their powers as well. The fact that he now has telekinesis makes this task even simpler. And he shall be immune to sneak attacks as well as have an even higher level of awareness thanks to Spider-Man's precognition

========================
PHASE THREE: Finishing up the battle
=========================

Anyone who is located in any part of the various streets or outside areas shall quickly be dispatched by the powered up Amazo either by brute force (remember,Amazo now has the combined strength of Spider-Man, a rival of Superman and Apocolypse as well as their speed) or by the enhanced abilities provided by Apocolypse. In terms of strengthalone, we're talking about billions of tons of force (if needed, I shall provide scans to support this assertion). Based on the description which my opponent has provided for his characters in prior debates, it doesn't seem that anyone on his team (other than Deadpool, due to nigh-immortality via regeneration) can survive a direct assault on Super Amazo.

Nevertheless, if he begs to differ, I invite him to prove otherwise in the next round. Anyways, the only character who is stated to have psychic immunity is Deadpool, hence he couldn't be located by simple telepathy. Hence, while Apocolypse, Amazo, and Doomsday were out celebrating their victory, Spider-Man and Batm could spend a couple of hours searching for Deadpool. Being the world's greatest detective and having someone who has a general understanding of the man (Spider-man) due to prior teamups, Batman ought to able to find his location the old fashioned way (assumign Deadpool intends to hide). After a brief exchange of wisecracks, Spider-Man and Batman would have no problem besting the merc with a mouth in combat (Batman has studied every martial art known to man and Spider-man has fought well against the best of martial artist in the Marvel Universe and both are known for besting opponent's out of their league, not that Deadpool is). If they did however, they could always call Super Amazo in for backup who could proceed to toss the merc out of the city as was the case with Mr Sinister.

And that'll do it for now.
Puck

Con

Let's Dance!

"Instantly as the battle begin, Apocolypse uses telepathy to locate every presence capable of producing thought in the city. Usually, something along the lines of cerebro would be needed to boost one's telepathic powers to the point of finding specific people in an entire city, but since the rules stipulate that combatants are the only people involved, this shouldn't be necessary."

First Contact:

Sinister doesn't like mental trickery. At all. The first twinge of the mind of Apocalypse allows equally, Sinister access
to Apocalypse. Sinister uses the contact to remove Apocalypse from city limits (it's a short nudge after all). This ability has defeated highest level Marvel psychics, holding in check and manipulating the bodies of Nate Grey (Cable), Jean Grey, Madelyne Pryor and Psylocke, so apparently mental prowess is not the issue here in terms of defense (I can provide scans if needed of such events).

Should Apocalypse deem it appropriate to mount a psychic counterattack, such an event will backfire. Sinister is able to redirect such powers back at the opponent manifold. If Apocalypse resists, such a feedback presents serious hazard to several members of your team, notably Spiderman, Batman and base Amazo (you place this event first, prior to powering up). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

http://img169.imageshack.us...

The location of my team is unable to be given to Doomsday, which assumed on my opponents behalf a trouble free opening mental sortie. The issue of Sinister not being present is far from given and his mind is present defending all other members.

"Since no one else on my opponent's team can move that quickly, he could very well do the same to the rest of them. But for the purpose of efficiency, I shall argue more than just that."

Unfortunately (not for me) such delays as with the location of my team enables them to act in accord with Sinister's opening mental assault.

---------------------------------------------
Concurrent with the start of the battle:
---------------------------------------------

Sage boosts Sinister's abilities. Sinister's abilities are genetic based, Sage has the ability to over-boost genetic abilities. Her faster than super computer processing speed allows her to in short time power up Mr Sinister (this boost of course applies to any ongoing mental duel).

http://marvel.wikia.com...(Tessa)_(Earth-616)

Spiral creates a bubble around the team. Then Spiral becomes invisible.

http://img63.imageshack.us...

Engineer produces a multitude of nanite teams, then duplicates herself.

http://img63.imageshack.us...

Deadpool teleports to a sealed location, given by Engineer, and prepares.

"Powering up Amazo"

Granted at this stage Amazo has Doomsday and Spiderman's abilities, not so Apocalypse. No matter though.

After the initial stage, Sage locates the remaining members of the opposing team. Amazo's unique electronic nature (and now size :P) is enough to be found, the rest are organic and no trouble for Sage.

Spiral opens portal and the nanites are released.

One set is sent towards the Batman/Spiderman duo. Molecular sized nanites capable of transmitting paralysis inducing chemicals would appear to be a problem for this doomed duo. The nanites seek and deliver. Batman and Spiderman are rendered unusable, not even aware what took them out.

The second set head for Amazo. Android. Electronic. Susceptible to electronic disruption and Angela's nanites can do precisely that, able to put out a field that disrupts electronic based artifacts. At best Amazo is shut down, at worse powered down.

"Batman ought to able to find his location the old fashioned way (assuming Deadpool intends to hide)."

Old fashioned way? Detective work? What exactly would Batman find? Clues left lying around? Deadpool teleports and the duo (assuming they are still alive) have a whole city to search (inside and out).

"After a brief exchange of wisecracks, Spider-Man and Batman would have no problem besting the merc with a mouth in combat (Batman has studied every martial art known to man and Spider-man has fought well against the best of martial artist in the Marvel Universe and both are known for besting opponent's out of their league, not that Deadpool is)."

Deadpool has defeated an opponent who precisely knew his all his moves and precisely what moves he would make (the fight is not so clear cut and I can provide scans of such). Moot however since you have to survive molecular nanites and then find Deadpool who is preparing. :)

===

That will do for now. :)
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Pro

RE: First Contact: Part 1

CON states that Sinister would counter the first phase of my strategy with his ability to counter psychic contact in a manner that would result in Apocalypse being removed from city limits in this encounter. He goes on to state that this ability has bested Marvel psychics of the highest level, yet merely offers non cosmic level telepaths as examples.

First, I'd like for him to better explain him short nudging Apocolypse out of city limits (I.e. is this teleportation?). Also, I'd like for him to explain what kind of ability it is granted that he claims that it works regardless of one's psionic level of power.

Second, there is ample reason to believe that Apocolypse outclasses Mr. Sinister in mostly any regard

1) Sinister had been working under Apocolypse for centuries, resenting nearly every moment of it, yet unable to do anything about it. Even with all the preparation time he could ask for (the creation of a highly potent virus meant to remove all of a mutant's abilities and eventually kill them), the best Sinister could do was weaken Apocolypse, only to survive because Apocolypse ALLOWED it: http://img297.imageshack.us...

Sinister could have easily attempted to do battle with a WEAKENED Apcolopyse in the same manner at which my opponent refers to Mr Sinister having bested Psylocke, X-man and Cable (which would have been in his best interest, given that Apocalypse swore to end his life if they met again), but instead, he chose to flee in TERROR, hoping they'd never cross paths again.

2) Apocolyse establishes Xavier as being NOTHING to him even in regards to telepathy: http://static.mojefotke.si...

We should keep in mind that Xavier has shown himself telepathically able enter the mind of and even to resist even the powers of Galactus, even if merely for a few moments: http://img707.imageshack.us...
http://img33.imageshack.us... For him to be bested by Apocolypse so easily speaks volumes of what chance Sinister would have at even being able to think about taking him on.

Based on the above 2 points, it seems reasonable to conclude that Sinister's powers alone would be ineffective against Apacolypse's (especially him passing up on the opportunity to fight the foe in the weakened state)

RE: First Contact: Part 2:

CON suggest that Mr. Sinister could also redirect any psionic technique which Apacolypse employed, briefly sighting an instance of the villain redirecting Cabel's psionic energy. However, there are a few problems with this argument in particular. A) It borders on the no limits fallacy. Just because Mr. Sinister can redirect the energy of a small fry like Cabel (not in his prime) tenfold, it doesn't mean he can do the same to do someone who most certainly exceeds his power (again, refer to points in Part 1). 2) Apocolypse wouldn't be trying to search the deepest regions of Sinister's mind (which is how his trapped worked in the first place, hence the lines "Dig Deeper Nate Grey, dig deeper)). He's only attempting to learn of his location. This would take far less psionic energy and would not allow Sinister‘s trap to work. 3) His psionic abilities are great enough for him to CASUALLY detect even the Watcher's presence: http://img696.imageshack.us... (whose psionic powers of non interference make him undetectable by all but the most powerful beings of the Marvel Universe, unless willed otherwise)..

Thus, I hold that Mr. Sinister would be found and he would still be duly dealt with.

Of course, lets assume that CON is correct and that Mr Sinister counter to Apcolypse's opening mental assaults results in there being time for any of the other combatants on CON's team to get to work.

Contingency Plan: Batman uses his mother box power of detection or life sense (whichever can be used more efficiently to complete this phase of the battle)( http://dc.wikia.com... ) to do the job Apocalypse was supposed to do, fortunately not being hindered by the issue of having to have superior telepathic prowess. Apocalypse instantly reads Batman's mind, sees what he sees and knows Mr Sinister‘s precise location. Knowing his location, he then proceeds to telepathically tell Doomsday to clean Mr Sinister's clock via speed blitz and phase one of my strategy is still successful. Note: This also can be applied to Sage being successfully in boosting Sinister's abilities to a level which will enable him to fight on par with Apocalypse (unlikely given that he has failed to come up with his own method of doing this, in spite of having centuries as well as the knowledge that would come from working under him).

RE: CON's assault:

CON's team begins to attack after Amazo has already been powered up by Spider-Man and Doomsday. Given that Apocalypse has the powers teleportation, there's no reason as to why he couldn't simply teleport to Amazo's location (for that matter, no reason to believe anyone on Team PRO would be separated, assuming Doomsday has yet to blitz anyone at this stage.

Anyways, CON breaks his assault down to 2 stages.

1. Since Amazo now has Apocalypse powers as well, he proceeds to create either a telekinetic field or uses his energy manipulation to create an energy field around both Batman and Spider-Man. This is assuming Apocolypse himself is somehow still at a stalemate with Mr. Sinister (otherwise, he could do this himself). Nevertheless, the force fields make Sage's nannites ineffective. Even if the nannites were able to reach Spider-Man and batman before a force field was made, Spider-Man's super human reflexes and his spider sense would easily be allow him the speed and clairvoyance needed to avoid being tagged by these machines.

http://img505.imageshack.us...
http://img509.imageshack.us...

NOTE: Spider-Man dodges his blasts fired with the intention of killing (and surfers blast can move around light speed, meaning his precognition and reflexes are very refined), and said blast were augmented by the natural boost symbiotes give to their hosts

2. Amazo uses his powers of bio molecular manipulation to manipulate his body into a more organic state, incidentally no longer making him susceptible to electronic disruption, but not before already having created a force field that will stave off the nannite assault.

------>ADJUSTMENTS TO PHASE 3:

With CON's offense successfully dismantled, Super Amazo continues using the strategy listed in Phase 3. As insisted, if Apocolpse and Sinister are still duking it out, Batman's mother box should be the perfect substitute in hunting down the remaining members of Team CON (meaning even Deadpool can be located).

Super Amazo first engages Engineer, absorbs the energy out of the bubble field which Spiral had created as Apocolypse has shown himself capable of against Cyclopse: http://img94.imageshack.us... . With no force field, Engineer and her duplicate are defenseless against Super Amazo and is vanquished quickly. Spiral is the next to go with her invisibility being useless against telepathy and/or the mother box. Sage is taken down just as easily and then Mr Sinister, presuming Apocalypse could not deal with him.

I'll concede to detective work being moot when it comes to locating Deadpool, but Bats and Spidey have the motherbox, so locating him and reaching any location he is in (via boomtube) should not be a problem. Finally, if they do fight, Spider-Man tells Batman to grab some popcorn as he proceeds to single handedly beat the stuffing out of him. The webhead would be able to anticipate all of his moves (spidersense), has super strength/reflexes (10 tons) as well as genius level intellect. Either that or a more powerful member on my team handles this.

===

Till next round . .
Puck

Con

"yet merely offers non cosmic level telepaths as examples."

The best the X-men can muster on the field since cosmic level is banned here and Apoc is no where near cosmic level without his alien tech, unavailable to him here.

"I'd like for him to better explain him short nudging Apocolypse out of city limits"

Nope. A TP directional move.

http://img199.imageshack.us...

"what kind of ability it is granted that he claims that it works regardless of one's psionic level of power."

Simply because resisting gives Sinister fuel to add to the power as he is able to redirect an opponents usage against him. The more you resist the more feedback Sinister can apply to the ability.

"Sinister had been working under Apocolypse for centuries, resenting nearly every moment of it."

Working together? No. They part company soon after the origins of Sinister.

"Even with all the preparation time he could ask for (the creation of a highly potent virus meant to remove all of a mutant's abilities and eventually kill them), the best Sinister could do was weaken Apocolypse, only to survive because Apocolypse ALLOWED it"

Sinister at that stage was unmodified. After he parts with Apoc he spends the better part of 200 years *adding* to his abilities. Sinister is able to absorb the abilities of another's genetic material whether by touch or self experimentation, giving him his large breadth of abilities. The Sinister of when you mention is not the Sinister here by any stretch.
http://img301.imageshack.us...

"Sinister could have easily attempted to do battle with a WEAKENED Apcolopyse [...] flee in TERROR, hoping they'd never cross paths again."

See above.

"Apocolyse establishes Xavier as being NOTHING to him even in regards to telepathy"

And Sinister taught The Professor at university, besting even those Xavier is wary of.

"We should keep in mind that Xavier has shown himself telepathically able enter the mind of and even to resist even the powers of Galactus"

See above and resistance argument. Sinister's abilities are not Apocolypse's nor Xavier's but the culmination of 200 years of genetic self enhancement.

"Apocolypse wouldn't be trying to search the deepest regions of Sinister's mind ... He's only attempting to learn of his location."

Irrelevant since *contact* allows Sinister the opportunity to move Apoc. If he doesn't resist he is removed, if he does, feedback. Not a one off specific ability, nor of the depth required as you argue.

http://img301.imageshack.us...
http://img121.imageshack.us...

"His psionic abilities are great enough for him to CASUALLY detect even the Watcher's presence"

Your pic shows nothing of psychic knowledge.

"Batman uses his mother box power of detection or life sense (whichever can be used more efficiently to complete this
phase of the battle)to do the job Apocalypse was supposed to do"

Is this standard Batman equipment? It certainly doesn't appear in issues of Batman.

http://dc.wikia.com...
http://www.comicvine.com...

If you can show that it is, then please do, otherwise it is a DC artifact not congruent with Batman.

Secondly the motherbox is an artifact of The Source, a banned level entity giving such powers to those holders of:

Omniscience, Omniprescence, and the skill "Regenerate Others" grants apparent invulnerability "Manipulate the life-force of a host to sustain it past fatal injuries"

Such an artifact, if a character would be grounds for banning and the same goes for the artifact here, which grants such abilities.
http://dc.wikia.com...

I will argue 'even so' however to be complete.

"he then proceeds to telepathically tell Doomsday to clean Mr Sinister's clock via speed blitz."

As soon as Doomsday approaches the team he is enveloped by Spiral's bubble, putting him in stasis. Spiral can paralyse him there.
http://img41.imageshack.us...
http://img532.imageshack.us...
http://img532.imageshack.us...

"This also can be applied to Sage being successfully in boosting Sinister's abilities to a level which will enable him to fight on par with Apocalypse"

You make no real argument against Sage's boost, merely reciting the same argument underpowered Sinister defence. Sage's boost will allow Sinister's ability to magnify, making underpowered arguments moot.

"CON's team begins to attack after Amazo has already been powered up by Spider-Man and Doomsday. Given that Apocalypse has the powers teleportation, there's no reason as to why he couldn't simply teleport to Amazo's location."

Spiral can portal the nanites anywhere, Amazo's location is irrelevant.

"Since Amazo now has Apocalypse powers as well, he proceeds to create either a telekinetic field or uses his energy manipulation to create an energy field around both Batman and Spider-Man."

It's as good as saying: "hey let's go back in time and replay my strategy." Your R1 Amazo *did* have Apoc's powers to use and applying them post argument is a sneak tactic as you had sentry specifically *not* do the aforementioned things. The nanite attack occurred without any TK shielding and applying the shield in an attempt to subvert that argument is moot, since you specifically did not in R1.

The same goes for Batman and Spiderman, whom you had traipse around the city unshielded. It's only after my argument that you post apply the defence again, however again moot by your own arguments of their use.

" Spider-Man's super human reflexes and his spider sense would easily be allow him the speed and clairvoyance needed to avoid being tagged by these machines."

The nanites are atom sized however, meaning there is nothing there to "evade" in the sense of a blast or attack (surviving atomic strength blasts). Indeed Spidey's senses are not infallible; "can confuse it by making it seem the danger is all around Spider-Man rather than a specific threat" - and the nanites are exactly that, a swarm of atom sized machines.
http://img21.imageshack.us...
http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_powers_and_equipment#Enemies_immune_to_the_spider-sense

"Amazo uses his powers of bio molecular manipulation to manipulate his body into a more organic state, incidentally no longer making him susceptible to electronic disruption..."

Again applied post argument. Disruption of Sentry occurred prior to your mounting the defence to it (it's not reactionary either so you can't argue that - it's a ploy to apply arguments before your prior arguments).

"meaning even Deadpool can be located"

See above for Mother Box issues.

"absorbs the energy out of the bubble field which Spiral had created as Apocolypse has shown himself capable of against Cyclopse"

Optic blast =/= dimensional magic - not being energy, nor directed *at* Sentry or Doomsday, but around them (see relevant pic).

"Sage is taken down just as easily and then Mr Sinister, presuming Apocalypse could not deal with him."

See above.

"Finally, if they do fight, Spider-Man tells Batman to grab some popcorn as he proceeds to single handedly beat the stuffing out of him. The webhead would be able to anticipate all of his moves."

Deadpool has been preparing since he teleported in (see R1) as the duo appear, he detonates set explosives as he teleports to the next locale, preparing there. In a small sealed room in a city where rooms can not be damaged. The full force of the concussive blast is self contained, taking out the duo.

--
Engineer's clone is portaled to Deadpool's new location and the next clone is made.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Pro

>>>>>>>>>>RE: First Contact Part 1

Alright, the crux of CON's point here is that Sinister can just redirect Apocolypse's psionic energy no matter how weak or strong the technique is. Based on how this is described, the only way for me not to end up relying on my contingency plan is to provide reason for this technique being vastly overestimated.

In the very next issue (X-man #19), Nate Grey refers to Sinister's technique as an "ambush", hence proving my initial assertion regarding the attack

http://img130.imageshack.us...
http://img130.imageshack.us...

Also, the second link indicates that he used Grey's friend in advance to create himself a psi-map that would allow him easy access to Grey's mind. Sinister has no such advantage against Apocalypse.

Second, CON points out that my evidence indicating that Sinister stood no chance against Apocalypse is irrelevant since this took place before Sinister grew more powerful in having his abilities vastly augmented. In other words, if I can show evidence that Sinister feels the same even with his upgrades, my point is to be accepted.

Sinister still acknowledges his inferiority to Apocalypse not just in saying that the mutant will destroy all of his work in one fell swoop, but that he needs Cable's help in the first place . All of which is shown below:

http://img31.imageshack.us...
http://img9.imageshack.us...
http://img706.imageshack.us...

In regards to Xavier vs Sinister, Xavier is most certainly his superior. In X-men Legacy 214, the two have a psionic duel in Sinister's attempt to take over his body. Sinister loses quite badly and is possibly dead as a result.

http://img42.imageshack.us...
http://img132.imageshack.us...

Thus, it is fitting to say that Apocalypse >>> Xavier > Mr. Sinister. If Apocalypse can take down Xavier with a casual mind blast, just imagine what he'd do to Mr. Sinister during this battle. In addition, it should be noted that Sinister showed no ability to redirect Xavier's psionic powers during this encounter. The same should be noted during his battle with Cable. Given that this is the case, I'd once again like to refer back my explanation of Sinister's technique above.

Finally, in regards to my comment regarding Apocalypse detecting the watcher, the point is that Uatu's (The Watcher) powers allow allow him to uphold his strict code of ethics based upon strict noninterference. He supposed to be virtually undetectable by pretty much everyone in the Marvel Universe, yet Apocalypse can casually detect. My pic does indeed describe vast psychic power.

>>>>>>>>>>Batman's contingency plan.

The contender raises several objections which I shall address numerically.

1) In regards to evidence of the motherbox being an item which Batman actually owns: http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com...

In JLA Classified #1, Batman debuts his "boomtube gauntlet" (essentially, a motherbox and a sample of element X combined with his specialized glove, built by none other than Batman himself). With it being more than merely a mother box, it would explain why this item doesn't show up on those pages .

2) The motherbox is an artifact of the source; not the source itself. Furthermore, Batman is NOT the motherbox. The motherbox is nothing more than a tool, hence only being as powerful as Batman allows it to be. With this being kept in mind, as long as he restricts it's use (i.e. not using the abilities CON objects to, although omnipresence isn't listed as an ability and there is no way it truly has omniscience or else Darkseid would have found the anitlife equation long ago with his), there is no possible way for my opponent to argue that it violates the rules.

3) CON argues that Spiral can just contain Doomsday by placing him in a stasis field, yet if you'll look at his scans, Spiral has to be conscious of those whom she was using her stasis spell. With Doomsday capable of hitting speeds past light, she'd be unable concentrate on him, much less detect him. CON's only hope is to assure that Doomsday is never given the location.

4) My opponent accuses me of making no real argument against Sage's boost. Other than insisting that has had ample time and opportunity to acquire such power only to still be no match, no. Still, if CON could provide a description of how much Sinister's power would be increased, I'd better be able to answer this.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>RE: CON's assault:

Once again, I will respond numerically down the line in accordance to each of his responses.

1) CON's states that Amazo's location would be irrelevant, but this has nothing to do with the point I was making. Saying Apocalypse could teleport to Amazo's location was in response to him pointing out that Amazo doesn't have Apocalypse's powers at the time of his team's initial assault. Basically, he could quickly escape Sinister's entrapment via "contact" (presuming it's successful) simply through teleporting out of his energy field to Amazo's vicinity.

2) CON accuses me of deception based on my R1 Amazo having Apocalypse's powers and me supposedly acting like I changed my argument as if to only just now use this in response to one of his points, but I've addressed this above. Look back to CON's R1. He states "Granted at this stage Amazo has Doomsday and Spiderman's abilities, not so Apocalypse."

Furthermore, my R1 strategy has in no way changed. I specifically pointed out that Amazo would be immune to sneak attacks at this point in the battle with Spidey's spider sense. With spider sense, he is quickly prepared to act upon the counter measures I described in the previous round. He comprehends what's about to happen seconds before it does. Since Amazo isn't using to sense to counter specific movements, the spider sense should prove highly effective.

3) If the nannites can indeed swarm in such a vast area, then batman can alternatively boomtube the duo to an enclosed building after being alerted by CON's proposed attack (via Spidey's spider-sense). Still, since CON has provided us with no reason to believe that Amazo's telekinetic/energy field wouldn't do the job, this move shouldn't be necessary.

3) Regarding deadpool, see my response on CON's issues with the motherbox.

4-5) CON claims the bubble field conjured by spiral isn't energy but rather dimensional magic. However, isn't this still mystical energy? Nevertheless ... in response, if the bubble field isn't made of mystical energy, Amazo could alternatively use Apocalypse's powers of teleportaton to teleport into the bubble field. Con might argue that Spiral could simply reduce the overall size of the bubble field or just place bubble fields around each of her teammates rather than just have one big one surrounding them all. Amazo would merely need to decrease his shape/size to adjust to any such changes. In fact, there's really nothing to stop him from telefragging each member of team CON (i.e. teleporting into each of their bodes, preferably a vital organ, only to kill them from them inside with the full extent of his powers).

6) As he hits the detonator button, Spider-Man uses his super human reflexes to quickly web the explosives and dispel 99% of the blast. He was able to do this to two missiles being fired at him at close range, so it should be a simple task here: http://img515.imageshack.us...

Of course, both him and Batman could just as easily hide under his cape as it's set in it's explosive resistance mode as seen in the film Batman Forever. With the attempt failed, Spidey and Bats continue to follow Deadpool, with him having less time to prepare. Or again, Super Amazo could eventually take him out.

---

Till next round ...
Puck

Con

1 A. Attack on Nate Grey.

Whether an ambush or not is irrelevant to the discussion of what he can do. Apocalypse is not Nate, indeed both Cable and Jean Grey have bested Apocalypse, of which Sinister has defeated both as well. Also you ignore the fact I have showed outside of Nate the very same counter abilities present and used. The issue of a mind map is irrelevant since Sage can provide precisely that to Sinister. Such knowledge not only allows Sinister deeper access, but the ability to shut off abilities as well, and precisely that Sinister will do to Apocalypse, rendering him useless, allowing the original TP exit to occur, no matter where he teleports too (moot once teleport is shut down anyway).

http://img192.imageshack.us...

1 B. Sinister fears Apocalypse.

Sinister's raison d'etre is genetic manipulation (hence no mano e mano record, it's simply not in character). The initial Apocalypse virus was because Apocalypse was determined to wipe out humanity. The "all my work" line references Cable being the instrument of Sinister, whom he created, whom Apocalypse is determined to kill. Since he doesn't (Cable is underpowered even) and Cable has been shown to kill Apocalypse (death of Apocalypse) we can say Sinister's method is indeed superior to Apocalypses.

1 C. Sinister vs. Professor X.

Again, not the Sinister here. The Divided We Stand arc occurs after Messiah Complex where Sinister *dies*. Professor is battling a latent archetype of Sinister triggered upon his death, held by the machines power that only once destroyed allows Professor X to expel Sinister.

Let's not get sidetracked though, this is not a Sinister vs. Professor X battle, no matter what you may prefer. Your only reference to Apocalypse's power is a single self reference. Stating "I am God" does not make me one.

1 D. The Watcher.

It could just as easily be the ships tech. Tech of which Apocalypse is reliant upon for a quantity of his abilities such as regeneration. Still no psychic power.

2 A. Batman's Motherbox.

So a reduced Motherbox, an artifact specifically called "Boomtube" in the name. There is no reference that Batman creates the Gauntlets with the full powers of the listed Motherbox, indeed specifically created to form Boomtubes, not the rest. Until you can show the Gauntlets are equitable to the original MotherBox in ability the argument he can neither find Deadpool nor Spiral stands.

2. B. The Source.

Given the Gauntlets appear to be singular purpose in regards to Motherbox abilities, Source arguments are on hold till you show the Gauntlets capable of otherwise.

3. Spiral's Spell.

R1 I placed the spell into effect prior to Doomsday even deciding to attack. Spiral's dimensional magic is manipulation of time space and matter, of which is present everywhere in the city, including around my team. Doomsday enters an altered state, created by the spell, held in stasis, then paralysed. The argument Spiral must be aware of Doomsday is moot: 1. Prescience, 2. She creates the spell which Doomsday *enters* 3. Once in stasis, speed is entirely irrelevant.

http://img695.imageshack.us...

4. Sage's boost.

Sage isn't aligned with Sinister, asking for a boost scan for the two just isn't available. Sage's ability is depicted as providing higher levels of normal or latent abilities.

http://marvel.wikia.com...(Tessa)_(Earth-616)

In addition Sinister can engage Apocalypse on the Psychic Plane, where his powers are greatly manifest. Note Psylocke (high level psychic) top left, unaffected by being placed in the Plane, only Sinister's powers are made manifest large.

http://img25.imageshack.us...

5 A. Amazo's abilities.

You R1: "Apocolypse and Spider-Man allows Amazo to duplicate their powers. Amazo then proceeds to use Apocolypse's powers ... "

Amazo *with* Apocalypse's abilities, *minus* the use of them to TK shield in your R1.

My R1, I challenge the fact that Apocalypse remains after first contact, hence the "Granted at this stage Amazo has Doomsday and Spiderman's abilities, not so Apocalypse", referencing the current Sinister vs. Apocalypse struggle, *not* that you had not given Amazo, Apocalypse's abilities in your initial strategy.

The fact that you specifically change your R1 argument post mine, remains. Amazo was unshielded upon the nanite attack. Spiderman and Batman were unshielded upon the nanite attack.

Spider sense Amazo fails for the same reason that Spiderman's does; atom sized swarms do not present a 'known threat' to counter.

5 B. Batman's retreat.

Again a post argument applied. You initially have the duo stand and fight, again Spiderman has no real sense of what is there to dictate retreat from. Note, it is dropped that Spiderman can sense, can defeat the nanites themselves, a retreat is a tacit admission of defeat here.

6. Spiral and energy.

Spiral manipulates reality, not creates an extra 'energy' anything. Teleporting inside is moot since I specifically made it around my team for this very thing ("around the team"). There is nothing to teleport into apart from the space my team needs, indeed you simply teleport into the spell itself if you do so. Equivocation on energy occurs. What Cyclops can produce and what dimensional magic is are not equitable.

6 B. Teleporting into members.

Moot. Sinister's molecular control makes such damage irrelevant, plus touching Sinister = paralysis or he can command sleep. Same with Engineer, whose nanites regrow damage. Spiral is invisible. Sage can borrow Sinister's regenerative factor. Engineers nanites are sense organs, able to detect Amazo thus detailing it for destruction. Spiral can just as easily sense then target Amazo with spells there as well.

http://img200.imageshack.us...
http://img20.imageshack.us...
http://img23.imageshack.us...
http://img36.imageshack.us...
http://img200.imageshack.us...

7. Duo vs. Deadpool.

Deadpool detonates *as* they enter. There are no set explosives for Spiderman to web, they are exploding. Likewise, Batman is hit *as* he enter the room, the explosive force is occurring when they arrive. The duo are taken out.

==

Deadpool and Engineer clone are preparing, another clone sent his way ...
Debate Round No. 3
Logical-Master

Pro

Before I begin, I shall first address this issue (commonly linked to debate theory) which the contender keeps bringing up. CON has made multiple allegations of me changing my arguments at my convenience throughout this debate. First, I'd like to point out that even if you personally believe this, it's nothing more than a clear example of the style over substance fallacy at work. Let us remember that such issues have nothing to do with how convincing an argument is. The only area you could reasonable vote under while adhering to this criteria is conduct. Second, multiple times throughout this debate, my opponent has "adjusted" his position. For the sake of convenience, I shall list each instance in their appropriate sections below.

With that being said, on with the debate.

>>>>>>>>>>RE: First Contact Part 1

(1 A. Attack on Nate Grey.)

First, the ambush is most relevant as the situation (as described by my R1) is Apocalypse making the first move in reading Sinister's mind as soon as possible, only for Mr. Sinister to become aware once this happens. This differs from a situation where Sinister had made several unfair arrangements to be prepared for a mental assault that would have otherwise resulted in Mr. Sinister's not being victorious (as noted by Sinister himself).

Second, Apocalypse is not Nate, but was above Nate in power at this point in time. In addition, Apocalpyse has bested both Nate and Cable as well with ease (and he didn't need underhanded tactics). The two have only been successful while at their most powerful. http://www.debate.org...

Third, CON's link with Sinister's counter abilities does nothing more than establish the sources which I've provided. As we can see on the following link, Sinister studied each of the X-men extensively ("Sinister KNOWs us! He's STUDIED us!): http://img121.imageshack.us... . Once more, there doesn't exist any such advantage against Apocalypse. Not to mention that the level of psionic power is also a factor. As I've shown above, Apocolypse's powers even rival Nate Grey's at his best.

Fourth, CON states that the issue of the mind map is irrelevant since Sage can provide precisely that to Sinister. First, CON did not argue this beforehand. Initially, his counter strategy could be summed up as Sinister countering Apocalypse's telepathy, only to receive assistance from Sage afterwards. Second, even taking his argument into consideration, Sage would be unable to find a mind map. Based on what Sinister says regarding the mind map, he'd need for Apocalypse to read the mind of someone whose neuro locks he himself had designed: http://img682.imageshack.us... . Furthermore, even if Sage somehow could provide the mind map, there is the issue of time. Apocalypse reading Sinister's mind is his first act in this battle, whereas Sinister somehow countering would the 3rd.

1 B. Sinister fears Apocalypse.

1 C. Sinister vs. Professor X.

Sinister

And yes, this isn't an Xavier vs Sinister battle, but it wasn't a Sinister vs Nate Grey, Jean grey, etc battle either, yet my opponent has opted to use Sinister's victories against such characters as evidence for his position. This is precisely what I'm doing. If Apocolypse can beat Xavier in psionic power and Xavier can beat (or just equal, depending on what arguments you buy) Sinister in psionic power, Apocolypse is superior to Sinister in psionic power. Single reference or not, it confirms my position.

1D

Apocalypse's ship is nowhere near the vicinity, thus this is highly unlikely. Even if it were true though, there is nothing in the rules to indicate that his ship cannot be used (no different than Slave 1 or the Predator ship in Feverish's debates). Should CON argue that the ship is too powerful (which it isn't to my knowledge, but still . . .), this is no different than my prior arguments revolving around a tool only being as good as it's wielder allows it to be (in this case, Apocalypse merely boosting his cognition that allows him to detect even the Watcher.

>>>>>>>>>>Batman's contingency plan.

2 A. Batman's Motherbox.

Spiral doesn't possess psychic immunity. As for Deadpool, even if he succeeds in killing both Batman and Spider-man (or never encounters them), that just leaves him with Super Amazo, Apocalypse, and doomsday to deal with. Hiding =/= Winning. Technically, hiding for the remainder of the battle would render Deadpool unusable since he can't be used to win. If he tries to fight any of the above directly, he is as good as gone.

2. B.

Okay.

3.B Spiral's spell.

False. Spiral put the spell into effect before Doomsdays decides to attack, provided Sinister's counter to Apocalypse's initial telepathic search was impeded. If Sinister is unable to do this (which I've established), he gets thrown out of the city at light speed, while Apoccy rinses and repeats the strategy on any other member of team CON (just so that no one gets the idea that I'm in any way changing my argument here, note that I listed the blitz each member of CON's team approach as a strategy during R1).

Keep in mind the incantation Spiral has to make in order to set up the bubble field in the first place while keeping in mind the speed of Apoccy's own cognition as well as Doomsday's speed.

The only

4. Sages Boost.

All of that is understood. The question is HOW MUCH can Sage boost the Sinister's powers and how do we know that this will surely end any dispute in regards to the power difference between both Sinister and Apocalypse? My opponent expects more of an argument on my part other than what I've already presented, yet there is really nothing to argue against.

As for the psychic plane, this should be counted as instance of CON adjusting his argument. Second, the psychic plane is nothing more than a measure of one's psionic power as well as how skilled they are at manipulating it. There is no question that Sinister's powers are above Psylocke's, but Apocalypse is a different story. http://www.debate.org...

5 A. Amazo's abilities.

Keep reading my R1 and we see the following: "And he shall be immune to sneak attacks as well as have an even higher level of awareness thanks to Spider-Man's precognition."

Point: Amazo has precog. The nannit assault is a snek attack. With precog, he knows about the nannit blitz before it is even used, thus has ample opportunity to counter it.

As for his R1, he does challenge the fact that Apocalyps remains after his first contact, but I refute this by pointing out that even if Apocolypse is encumbered by Sinister's TP, that he can teleport out of it and into's Amazo's range of vision. Furthermore, I point out that there was never anything in my case to indicate that Apocalypse is even anywhere out of Amazo's sigh.

Judges, I have not changed my argument. Even if you buy this, the examples of CON adjusting his position should suffice in indicating that his point holds no weight.

As for Spider-Sense, I reiterate my comment in my previous round in that Amazo is countering the nannites specifically. The spider sense activating makes him aware that there is danger before the danger itself is present. Upon being aware of this, Amazo has reason to activate his TK/energy shield. This is nothing like my earlier argument where I insisted that Spider-man would dodge the nannites.

5 B.

My opponent initially has Deadpool stand and fight as well before the explosives tactic. His conduct here is no different than mine. Once again on the spider sense issue, CON's argument fails becuz the spider-sense is merely being used to learn of the danger, not how to counter it in battle. Thus, like Amazo, upon knowing that Danger will be present (regarldess of confusion), the duo escapes via boomtube.

6.
Drop.

6 B.

Sinister cannot move at lightspeed, thus cannot react quick enough. Amazo
Puck

Con

If L-M wants to give up a part of the voting then that is his prerogative. The ramifications of those arguments extend beyond conduct though and to what is valid within the actual debate.

The claim to a fallacy is incorrect. Style over Substance fallacy relates to how an argument is delivered (faulty speech, stammering, poor language use etc., being used as a measure of a poor argument). The claim was L-M backtracked
'time' on his characters to apply new arguments as to what they did.

http://changingminds.org...

The "adjustment claim" is not equitable. They were simply 'if that is insufficient Sinister does X'. *Not* if that fails then I start again and do over.

==

1. "First, the ambush is most relevant as the situation ... "

Once you allow Sinister the opportunity to battle Apocalypse the issue of ambush is moot, *especially* since you attempt the 'contact in secret' argument, meaning offense was never the intent; giving Sinister the first move.

Your DDO links are to no album. Imageshack link is to mine from prior round.

Cable vs Apocolypse:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net...

Sage and mindmap:

http://img94.imageshack.us...
Sage can fully map Apocalypse's structure providing it to Sinister. A mindmap is analogous to a smaller portion of the total Sage can provide Sinister.

Nate Grey is Omega level at the time we are discussing.
http://www.comicvine.com...

1 B. L-M dropped.

1 C.

I used Cable, Jean Grey, Madelyne Pryor to establish an minimum upper limit of Sinister's abilities. L-M has used a single self reference to set his bar as 'above Professor X'. L-M had 4 rounds to provide evidence of Apocalypse's supposedly profound mental feats and did not.

He has failed to establish his psychic level *at all* let alone on a level above the Professor. His "single reference" is not valid as it was not ably backed up.

1 D. "Apocalypse's ship is nowhere near the vicinity"

He is having a conversation about it, making it *post* event. The nature of how is not referenced in the frame at all. The issue of it being an alien tech possibility remains. Possibility is all that is necessary to make it a non valid reference to his skill level.

Access to his ship's tech is void. It exists outside NY city and the 1K sky limit above buildings (judges, read L-M's R1 with Amazo, where he references what we agreed to in PM; the sky limit set to 1 kilometre above the tallest building). Nor is this a debate about what other members of this tourney have argued, since it exists outside the bounds of this debate and our teams.

2 A.

L-M failed to prove the abilities of his Gauntlets. For this battle they can only provide the ability 'boomtube' and none of the other vaunted motherbox abilities L-M attempted to claim Batman would have access to.

"Spiral doesn't possess psychic immunity."

Irrelevant for this section since we are talking about what Batman can do.

"As for Deadpool, ... that just leaves him with Super Amazo, Apocalypse, and doomsday to deal with. Hiding =/= Winning."

Deadpool doesn't have to deal with other members of your team apart from what you send after him. If the nanites succeed, Batman and Spiderman never meet Deadpool. There is no other way you can access his location, meaning your team can *never* win, since Deadpool is never destroyed and immune to psychic awareness to find him.
http://img528.imageshack.us...

I never hide him away, he uses the landscape to his tactical advantage, setting traps in areas he accesses in the event of contact. It's a valid strategy as you yourself can attest to, having both Spiderman and Batman bear the brunt of it.

2 B. Source arguments rendered unnecessary.

3. "Spiral put the spell into effect before Doomsdays decides to attack, provided Sinister's counter to Apocalypse's initial telepathic search was impeded."

No provision at all. From R1: "Concurrent with the start of the battle:", "Spiral creates a bubble around the team."

The spell is in effect from the start of the battle and you have Doomsday *wait* for Apocalypse to give him directions, meaning even if Apocalypse has the upper hand, the spell is in place. Doomsday flies straight into it rendering him unable to advance/retreat making him easy picking for Spiral's paralysis spell.

"Keep in mind the incantation Spiral has to make ... keeping in mind the speed of Apoccy's own cognition ... Doomsday's speed."

You failed to provide any evidence for Apocalypse, let alone the speed at which he can cast his mind abroad. Speed arguments for Apocalypse > contact > Doomsday's instruction > my team are unfounded. Spiral cast the spell in a full battle with the full team of Avengers present. A waiting delay would have likely been fatal.
http://www.comicvine.com...

4.

How much Sage can boost is irrelevant since I only wanted to establish it as 'extra in case' vs. Apocalypse, and to establish a higher (any) level. Much like the psychic/astral plane argument, it goes against 'Sinister is X level' arguments where additional boosts serve the purpose of allowing presumably greater force to be brought to bear against Apocalypse.

If you hold that the manifestaion is a measure of one's power, that puts Sinister highly indeed.
http://img202.imageshack.us...

5 A. "And he shall be immune to sneak attacks as well"

The nanites are teleported *to* Amazo, meaning they are in effect when they appear, making any spider sense of them > action moot as upon arrival they are in effect. Amazo is depowered as they appear. Even so, Angela can also have the next batch teleported into Amazo for the same effect, bypassing a TK shield.

"With precog, he knows about the nannit blitz before it is even used"

Spidey sense relates to what is there to precog it (e.g. before a gun is fired at him point blank). Since the nanites teleport to him, precog is useless to him here.
http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_powers_and_equipment#Spider-sense

"I point out that there was never anything in my case to indicate that Apocalypse is even anywhere out of Amazo's sigh."

You in R1 use Apocolypse's abilities with Amazo, the only issue was resolving the initial Sinister incursion. As you teleport Apocalypse, and only grow Amazo, the 'pre' TK shield *before* nanites attack argument is void.

" examples of CON adjusting his position should suffice in indicating that his point holds no weight."

Addressed already. Note I don't contest that Apocalypse can teleport as it's an example of the flow of the battle (Sinister engages, Apocalypse to escape a TP push, teleports). Note how this is different than 'I did this' then 'No wait, I want to do it this way this time' which some of L-M's arguments were.

5 B. "My opponent initially has Deadpool stand and fight as well ... His conduct here is no different than mine."

False:
R1: Deadpool teleports to a sealed location, given by Engineer, and prepares.
R2: Deadpool has been preparing since he teleported in (see R1) [[[as the duo appear, he detonates set explosives as he teleports to the next locale,]]]...

6 B. "Sinister cannot move at lightspeed ... "

You have Amazo race towards my team *then* change size. Ample time for Sinister to prepare paralysis touch. Damage as per pic is irrelevant anyway. Rest of team strategy was not countered.

==
L-M never argues against the ability of my nanites, dropping arguments of Batman's and Spiderman's escape of them. They are out, and if not, Deadpool was capable. Deadpool was never engaged with.

Amazo is taken out by nanites, never argued against that could not. Or later at the telefrag attempt.

Doomsday was dealt with by Spiral.

Sinister takes Apoc.
Debate Round No. 4
60 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
No. As for your RFD, it's pretty unnecessary (I personally have no trouble grasping how I lost this debate :D), but if you really want to post one, be my guest.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Since Puck won, do you still want my RFD?
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Did you guys agree that there would be any prep time?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
That was from pcmbrown.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Hmm, yeah, that's 2/3. Puck advances to the finals.

RFD
B: L-M
A: Puck
Con: Tie. Both sides shifted their position.
Arg: Puck. He easily won the nanite argument, and while the Mr. Sinister/Apocalypse debate was nearly a wash, it fell in his favor as well.
Sources: Tie. Used well by both sides.
S&G: Tie.
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Teleportation isn't illegal under the rules, teleporting another out is.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Conduct: Tied
Teleporting was illegal, I thought, for both of you.
S/G: Tied
Rather poor grammar for both of you.
Arguments/Sources: CON
Puck established LM's attempts to turn back the clock as unfair. The nanites strategy overall seemed to work wonders.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
I see that you really need a judge. I will give you my RFD after I read this debate and write it up. If I haven't posted it in a week, please remind me since I probably will have forgotten.
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Any luck on those judges?
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Woot!
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