The Instigator
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Winning
45 Points
The Contender
mongoose
Con (against)
Losing
41 Points

LM Classic: Logical-Master vs Mongoose

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/9/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 7,049 times Debate No: 9454
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (55)
Votes (19)

 

Logical-Master

Pro

Greetings to the judges and to my esteemed opponent and welcome. With formalities out of the way, let us begin

===============
Team Logical-Master: |
===============

1) Revan - http://starwars.wikia.com...
2) Amazo (base form) - http://en.wikipedia.org...
3) Sora - http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com...
4) Batman - http://en.wikipedia.org...
5) Spider-man - http://en.wikipedia.org...

Any of their feats which I wish to support shall probably be supported when I cite them rather than unnecessarily cite them here.

My opponent's team consist of:

1)Special Agent Leroy Jethro Gibbs (NCIS)
2) Master Hand ( Crazy Hand if allowed) (Super Smash Bros. series)
3)Ganondorf (Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess)
4)Apocolpse (X-men)
5) Agent K (Men in Black)

=========
Strategy #1 |
==========

1) Firstly, as established in the film The Empire Strikes Back, a force wielder does not have to be in the presence of his/her victim in order to successfully perform a force choke; a force wielder only needs to sense them, which can even be as simple as monitoring someone via Holo net (as Vader did it).

Keeping in mind that force wielders can sense others across the entire galaxy even (as Darth Sidious had done so in the film Revenge of the Sith when it came to feeling Anakin in danger), sensing individuals in the mere confines of a city would be child's play for someone as renowned as Revan. In a mere instant, Revan could "feel" Agent K's and Jethro Gibb's presence and kill each of these mere humans via force choke.

2) Upon the three humans being killed, Amazo (who would have already copied the powers of each of the members on my team) would accompany Batman with his portable boomtube device and travel to Ganon Dorf's location immediately (keep in mind that finding Ganon Dorf would be simple on the basis that Amazo would be able to detect his presence through the force). Upon encountering the evil warlocke, Amazo could duplicate his powers (hence giving Ganon Dorf no chance against him in battle) and then dispose of him with his own copy of the keyblade which he received after duplicating Sora's powers. After all, the keyblade can repel those who are of the darknes. Given that Ganon is the epitome of Darkness in the Zelda games, it is quite reasonable to conclude that a blow from the keyblade would kill him instantly.

Of course, if you don't buy that, Batman could use his boomtube to boomtube Ganon into the sun. Either way, he is toast.

3) While all of this was going on, Sora and Spider-Man would make quick work of the master hand (whose location could be confirmed by Revan via telepathy). The video to the right demonstrates how easy it is to do this:

As you can see, even while facing two master hands at the same time and using someone as slow as Ike, it's attacks are easy to avoid through mere dodge rolls and it only contains 300% HP. Spider-Man, carefully utilizing his spider-sense, would be able to anticipate and evade each of the master hands attacks and counter with attacks of his own, constantly whittling down it's HP until it reached 0. Either that or he could simply web up the master hand and allow Sora to slice it into pieces.

Heck, an alternative to this would simply consist of Sora casting stopga ( http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com... ) and double teaming the master hand with Spider-Man aid before it even had the opportunity to respond.

4) Meanwhile (after dispatching the humans), Revan uses his nigh complete mastery of the force to use Midicholorian Manipulation (http://starwars.wikia.com...) and provide Apocolypse enough Midicholorians to become force sensative. He then proceeds to activate force speed, quickly assemble a Thought bomb ( http://starwars.wikia.com... ) and use it to utterly destroy Apocolype and trap his soul inside for the remainder of eternity.

Now this may possible kill amazo (assuming he couldn't properly defend himself with a force barrier), but it wouldn't matter consider Apocolypse would be dead as well.

An alternative to thiis would simply be to cast Force Plague (http://starwars.wikia.com...) or Torture by Chagrin ( http://starwars.wikia.com... ) to keep Apocolypse preoccupied with a slowed down mind/body or on the verge of insanity as all of his wost memories cloud his mind. While preoccupied, Amazo and Batman (and perhaps Sora and Spider-Man) could finish up their opponent and then finish off Apocolypse (the simplest solution being Batman utilizing his portable boomtube device to send Apocolypse into the sun and out of the battlefield.

And I think I'll leave it at that for now.

NOTE: I WILL be offering additional strategies in the next round.
mongoose

Con

Yay.

TEAM MONGOOSE:
1. Special Agent Leroy Jethro Gibbs
2. Special Agent K
3. Master Hand
4. Ganondorf
5. Apocalypse

http://www.debate.org...

Each character should have a good enough description in the other UTW debate.

I will start with refutations, then move on to other strategies.

My opponent says that Raven can simply force choke Gibbs and Agent K. However, the Force is "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." For this battle, it seems that the only ones left alive are rats. That doesn't leave much power for the force.

Next, my opponent tries to kill Ganondorf with the keyblade. http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com.... I see no reason for it to kill him, as it is not the Master Sword, and gives no mention of repelling evil in its wiki page: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com... . Also, "15) Teleporting out of NYC is prohibited." You can't send Ganondorf to the sun. Thus, he is not toast.

Next, my opponent goes after Master Hand. Master Hand can just hide in the ground, as seen in this picture: http://www.debate.org..., and fire lasers that can go through the ground, as seen here: http://www.debate.org....

Then my opponent says that Revan will assemble a Thought bomb and blow up Amazo and Apocalypse, though Apocalypse could teleport away from it.

Again, you can't teleport anybody outside of New York City.

Now for my strategies:

1. Agent K

See video 1, about 1:25. It shows Agent K using a special button on his watch or on his suit to erase the memories of everybody in New York City. He can use this on every member of team LOGICAL-MASTER at once. Then, he can board his flying car (see video 2, about 0:20) and convince each one that they are on team MONGOOSE. Every time it is about to possibly wear out, he can use it again. Also during this time, he can get the Master Sword and hide it somewhere of his choosing.

2. Ganondorf
Ganondorf can take control of anybody from Team L-M, as seen in video 3. He would take control of Batman, and use him to fight the rest of team L-M. Wouldn't be too hard.

3. Gibbs
Because Ganondorf now has the boomtube, he could give it to Gibbs, who could use it to warp wherever his gut tells him to, and from there, instantly snipe somebody, with his amazing sniping skills. This could easily work on Spider-Man, who is not bullet proof.

4. Apocalypse
Apocalypse could turn his arms into guns, and warp around shooting at Team L-M, constantly.

I reserve the right to use more arguments in the near future. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Pro

Opponent's rebuttal to Strategy #1 |
=======================

1) My opponent argues that since there are only rats in the city, there isn't much force energy, except by the amount found in the rats as well as the contestants. In response to this:

a) If that be the case, prove that the force energy found in ALL the rats in the city wouldn't be sufficient for Revan to perform any of the feats which I've claimed. Burden of proof belongs to those who make a claim.

b) This argument is bringing my opponent into more trouble than he can possible imagine for this debate as it is concluding that nothing out of New York City exist or can possible be used during this battle. Obviously, nothing in the official rules stipulate this (hence reason enough to dismiss it), but even if I were to pacify my opponent and agree to this, he'd have to admit defeat for his team granted that we'd have to conclude that the rest of the earth didn't exist (meaning NYC was just a floating city in an empty void), that there is no oxygen, no sun, etc. Such a state of existence would automatically deprive nearly everyone in this debate of life Sora, since the keyblade has demonstrated itself as having the ability to allow Sora to adapt/exist in any environment he is present in. Whether it be breathing under the sea in the Little Mermaid's world or battling entities in the void of space or even becoming a lion just to fulfill the rules of the world of the Lion King, the keyblade's magic insures Sora's protection (heck, his first fight was surviving the destruction of his own world in Kingdom Hearts 1). Hence, if we are to follow my opponents argument, he is essentially giving me the win since Sora would be the only one to survive (possibly Amazo if Sora allowed him to copy his powers in time).

2a) My opponent claims that he sees no reason for the keyblade to kill ganondorf since there is no mention of the keybade having the power to repel evil. However, he is quite mistaken as darkness and evil are one in the same (at least by Kingdom hearts standards). I specifically stated that the keyblade can repel those who are of darkness. In Kingdom Hearts, these kinds of beings are called "Heartless." http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com...

Specifically, those who hearts are consumed by darkness. As I've already insisted, Ganon's heart is consumed by darkness; he is the epitome of darkness in the Legend of Zelda universe. On the same page he cites, you'll notice that it is stated that the keyblade is very effective against both heartless and nobodies. Since Ganon possesses the same properties as these beings which are called heartless, the keyblade can effectively slay him. Pure and simple.

b) There is no such rule claiming that teleporting out of the city is not allowed. The final list of rules confirm this.

At best, we have this comment made by Logical-Master:http://www.debate.org...

In it, it states that he is leaning towards no. However, you'll notice that never actually declares that this tactic is not allowed. The purpose of my tactic here would be to force other contestants to leave the arena via teleportation, hence cause them to break the rules, hence cause them to be disqualified.

c) Granted, I understand that some judges may wish to adhere to the mindset that this tactic is not allowed. This is completely understandable, hence I shall provide an extra means of defeating ganondorf:

While Amazo is battling Ganon (and again, keep in mind that this would be an extremely simple task since he'd have ganondorf's powers as well merely after looking at him), Batman walks up to him and uses his knockout gas: http://members.fortunecity.com... (just hit control F and type in knockout)(this list is not the most up to date list in terms of Batman's gadgets, but it shall do). Since the rules stipulate that knocking an opponent out is all that is necessary for victory over them, Ganondorf is through. And since I see nothing which indicates that Ganondorf is by any means immune to this, I see no problem with this method.

3) CON states Master Hand could just hide in the ground and shoot lasers. First, I'd like for him to show some proof that Master hand can do both at the same time. I see no reason to believe so. Second, Sora could just cast magnet ( http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com... ) to force Master hand to come up from the ground and into the area of space where the magnet field was created and then proceed to finish him off as I've already described.

I would also like to point out that Spider-man's spider sense and superhuman reflexes would enable him to dodge the lasers quite easily ( http://img156.imageshack.us... ) and that Sora can easily deflect lasers (6:44 in first video on the right):

4a) My opponent states that Apocolypse could teleport away from the thought bomb Revan creates. If Apocolypse is indeed quick enough to do this, than the solution is rather simple: Revan simply subdues Apocolypse in the manner I previously listed (Force Plague or Torture by Chagrin). Once more, Apocalypse would be on the verge of insanity or in too poor of mental state to do anything. After successfully subduing him, he then proceeds with the thought bomb strategy.

4b) See what I have to say regarding teleportation.

OPPONENT's STRATEGIES

I've seen Video one. In fact, I very much anticipated it. The fact of the matter is that K wouldn't even have the opportunity to do this as he would be force choked before he could do anything about it. In a contest of speed, a skilled force wielder beats an ordinary human any day of the week. We know this given that we see them deflecting lasers via blaster bolts on a regular basis and know that they can just as easily use force speed to speed themselves and their perceptions of time up to super human levels. Watch 0:59 on the second video to the right: Notice how time appears to be slowed down and the jedi's movements appear to be much faster than normal.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that this memory erasing business would result in everyone on my opponent's team other than K and Master Hand as having lost their memories.

2. Resists a high tech military's mind control machine for 26 hours and with help comes up with a plan to break free

http://img18.imagevenue.com...
http://img142.imagevenue.com...
http://img43.imagevenue.com...
http://img12.imagevenue.com...

He is able to keep Martian Manhunter's brother out of his mind (JLA Classified #45)

http://img339.imageshack.us...
http://img228.imageshack.us...
http://img339.imageshack.us...

PLENTY more instances of similar feats can be shown here:

http://agent0x7.tripod.com...

Point being: Batman's willpower makes him HIGHLY resistant to mind control. Thus, there is ample reason to disregard the idea that Ganondorf would be successful in controlling Batman.

As for the other members of my team members, we must keep in mind that I have one of the greatest force wielders of all time on my team as well as someone who can duplicate his power. Either of who could easily monitor my other teammate's minds while fighting and intervene with any attempts at mind control. Thus, it would also be in CON's best interest to prove that Ganon's powers would be greater than the very power that binds the galaxy together (which Revan is state to be the heart of).

3. See above. Also, Spider-Man can easily dodge sniper rifle fire.

4. Upon having his mind invaded by Revan, he'd be harmless
mongoose

Con

1. The Force issue
I can't really prove anything here, so I guess I can't win this point. Although, I think Master Hand and Ganondorf could survive without oxygen or light.

2. a. Ah. I didn't know that they were "Heartless." Still, Ganondorf is not a Heartless, he is a Gerudo King of Evil. You can't prove that Ganondorf would be killed by a keyblade. He is not "ink-black in color, with yellow beady eyes" as the Heartless apparently are.

b. http://www.debate.org...
You have an updated rules list, which forbids teleporting outside of NYC.

c. New idea: Ganondorf creates a magical barrier around team CON, which they cannot walk out off through ordinary means. See video 1 for an example of the barrier.

3. I guess I can't. Instead, he shall hide in the ground and shoot bullets from his fingertips! In no way does your source state how powerful this magic is. It just says that it becomes more powerful as magic rank increases. Also, Master Hand is immune to the power of vaccuums and gravity, so it probably wouldn't work on him.

4. You still can't warp him away.

MY AWESOME STRATEGIES:

1. How fast can Revan find somebody using the force, then force choke him? It would take Agent K about a hundredth of a second to press a button on his wrist. Also, if you Force Choke him, Ganondorf could run over and press the button instead.

Yes, it would.

2. Okay, Batman has serious skills. Then he'll control Spider-Man. Ganondorf has the power of EVIL. This is very powerful.

3. I guess he doesn't get to warp... then he hides in a tall buildiing and snipes team CON while they are trapped in Ganondorf's barrier. Apocalypse can do the same.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Pro

=======================
Opponent's rebuttal to Strategy #1 |
=======================

1. CON concedes to my arguments regarding the force. As for the scenario where everyone is fighting in an empty void, I'd like for my opponent to provide evidence that both Master Hand and Ganondorf could survive without oxygen or warmth from the sun. Even if they could, neither would be a match for Sora (who would be perfectly adapted to such an environment due to the keyblades adapting powers. I've already explained why Sora is simply too fast for the Master Hand to engage and have explaned how easy it is to take it down in battle.As for Ganondorf, I maintain the argument that the keyblade's powers would prove rather effective.

2a. My opponent claims that Ganondorf is not ink-black in color with yellow beady eyes." This is not the criteria or being a heartless. For instance, Xehenhort (the final boss of the first Kingdom Hearts game) maintained a human appearance: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com... . Furthermore, my argument is not that Ganondorf is in fact a heartless, but that he possesses the same properties of one (having a heart consumed by darkness).

2b. I acknowledged that rules list, but have contested that transporting foes out of the city is not actually a stated rule. No one on my team would be teleporting out of the city. On the other hand, in my listed, I'd be forcing a member (or more) on my opponents team to do just that, hence violate the rules.

c. Batman chuckles and uses his motherbox to boomtube my entire team and himself out of the barrier. Either that or Sora simply uses to keyblade to tear down the barrier, since bypasing sealed interiors is one of its natural abilities: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com...

"The main power of the Keyblade, however, is the ability to seal or open the barriers between worlds, as well as "lock" a world's Keyhole, preventing the Heartless from attacking that world's heart. As an offset of this ability, the Keyblade can also be used to lock or unlock any lock, allowing the user to access any sealed interior, whether it be a locked room, gate, or treasure chest."

d. CON has dropped "c" from the previous round (that Batman simply uses knockout gas to knockout Ganon while Amazo is giving him a thrashing).

3a. CON must still provide evidence that Master Hand can hide in the ground and attack. So far, we've seen none and I doubt we will in this debate.

3b. The source does in fact state how powerful this magic is: "In Kingdom Hearts II, Magnega and Reflega are the only spells which can be used to harm the Sorcerer Nobody and Sephiroth. "

Sephiroth is indeed quite powerful. As Yraelz notes in this debate, the guy is fast enough to move across the solar system in seconds and is powerful enough to wipe out planets:http://www.debate.org...

If even a guy that strong cannot bypass such magic, it is doubtful that the mere Master hand would provide a better performance.

3c. CON states that master hand is immune to vaccums and gravity. I'd like to see some evidence for this assertion.

3d. Even if the above assertion were true, the power of magnet is neither gravity or a vacuum. It's sheer magic based based around the magical element of darkness.

4. That remains up to the judges to decide. Fortunately, I've offered an alternative contention that has nothing to do with warping him out of the battlefield. Thus, even if they don't buy that, it's not a problem for my position. Also, note that my opponent has dropped my alternative contention.

=======================
RE: CON's aweomse strategies |
=======================

1. Very fast. In the film Revenge of the Sith, Darth Sidious became aware of Vader's precise location as well as the fact that he would be in danger ON THE OTHER SIDE OF GALAXY before it even actually happened. Revan is more powerful than Sidious. Lines like: "Revan was power It was like staring into the heart of the Force" as well as that fact that Revan was regarded as being the most gifted force wielder of his time (during an age where force knowledge was far greater than the age of the prequals and the original trilogy) suggest this ( http://starwars.wikia.com... ).

Revan would know K's location and would be force choking him (and any other human) the instant the fight began.
As for it taking 1/100 of a second, it took him several seconds to prepare the button as well as to put on the glasses needed to avoid the effects of the ray. When taking into consideration the fact that he'd need to avoid erasing the memories of his teammates as well, set the device on a mode that doesn't just erase memories of UFO's or UFO related business (assuming the device can in fact do that) even more time would pass. Once again, this is in comparison to Revan moving at superhuman speed thanks to the force power known as force speed as well as the fact that he'd know team CON's location in an instant.

As for Ganondorf pushing the button, I see no reason as to why Revan couldn't start force choking him as well.
Granted, it probably wouldn't kill him, it would certainly keep him from pushing any buttons.

An alternative to this would simply be for everyone on my team "cover their eyes" or for Batman to boomtube the entire team into the NYC sewers as the fight begins., seeing as how eye obstruction seems to be all that is necessary in avoiding this memory erasing light.

2. Power of evil?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Take a gander at the abilities section. I see nothing about "power of evil." Yes, Ganondorf is indeed evil and was given the title "king of evil" for his accomplishments, but this power which CON speaks of simply doesn't exist.

In any case, the worst case scenario would simply be for Revan to cast "force stun" on Spider-man (hence preventing him from moving) until Ganondorf is dispatched: http://starwars.wikia.com... , though it is doubtful that this would even be necessary since there is nothing to indicate that Ganon's feeble powers are a match for the force.

3. Revan would detect him at the start of the battle and kill him just as he'd kill K. Also, even if by some freak accident, Gibbs escaped, Sora could take him out with the technique known as warp snipe. He used this technique to best a far more powerful sniper who was using friggin lazers.

1:39 in the video to the right is a good instance of this. He is shown deflecting lazers. Lazers > bullets. He could move at warp speed and deflect all of the bullets right back at him. And hiding is useless against someone who detect life and read minds.

I've already shown how Ganon's barrier is useless.

Till next round.
mongoose

Con

1. Master Hand has no reason to need oxygen. It's a giant hand. No lungs or anything. He clearly doesn't need it. Ganondorf has existed in the Sacred Realm. There isn't oxygen there. He has also existed as twilight particles, which wouldn't need oxygen. Also, it seems that the rules never say anything about nothing else existing outside of New York City, so anything referring to such is pointless. I was simply arguing about life form's existence, as it was less certain.

2.a. Let's assume that he is Heartless. That doesn't mean that the keyblade can defeat him. If he is Heartless, then we can assume that his evil minions are Heartless. They can be killed without the Master Sword. Ganondorf can't. His immunity to being killed by anything besides the Master Sword would extend to protect him from the keyblade. It wouldn't be able to kill him.

b. http://dictionary.reference.com... teleport: to transport (a body) by telekinesis. Clearly this can mean that the one initiating the teleportation is also "teleporting" in the sense that he is teleporting the other people away, thus doing such is against the rules, and Team L-M can't do it.

c. The boom tube involves travelling between dimensions. New York City is not in between dimensions, thus using the boom tube would be teleporting outside of New York City. http://en.wikipedia.org.... Sora may be able to bypass sealed interiors, but this not a barrier keeping them out, but in. It is a different concept, which would be completely different.

d. I didn't drop c, I merely tried a different approach to counter it. If the aforementioned plans don't work, he could transform into his god-like form and ultimately destroy Batman.

Also, it seems that Amazo can only copy mutants: "Each version of Amazo has differences, but all utilize "absorption cells" to duplicate the powers of any metahuman encountered". http://en.wikipedia.org...
This would not include Ganondorf and his magical abilities, as they are not mutations. This means that his copying powers have no effect on anybody on my team besides Apocalypse, as they are not mutants.

3. a. If you look at the first picture of Master Hand that I have provided, it is clear that he can go through the ground and fire bullets from his fingertips at the same time.

bd. All that does is show that this Nobody person can block everything else. This could just mean that all of the other spells are incredibly weak. It's not comparable to Master Hand. There is nothing saying anything about how this Magnet spell works. It just uses "Darkness." As nothing else moves Master Hand, I don't see why this would. Does this Magnet bring the walls of rooms crashing inwards? I don't think so.

c. Master Hand is obviously immune to gravity, as he floats with ease. It just doesn't affect him. Vacuums don't affect him either. http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com... None of these affect Master Hand.

e. Master Hand then outlasts Team L-M. After 5 minutes, Team L-M mysteriously dies.

4. Apocalypse could alter his body to copy the invincible Statue of Liberty, making him indestructible. He could then make thousands of machine guns protrude from her head, and fire at Team L-M.

MY AWESOME STRATEGIES

1. The fact that he knew he would be in danger would be more of a gut thing, as Gibbs does. I want to see a source as to how he could instantly find him and Force Choke him, as knowing what is happening is completely different than altering it. Watching a TV, you can know things in an instant, but you are powerless to do anything about it in that instant. Agent K would start out wearing his alien-technology sunglasses, as that is what he usually wears. He would not be able to prevent it from erasing the minds of his teammates, and there is no "non-UFO memory" or anything. All he's have to do would be to press the button.

http://starwars.wikia.com... Force Choke is only fatal if prolonged. K would still have time to press the button.

Ganondorf could transform into Twilight Particles and warp to a position where he is already pressing the button.

Covering one's eyes doesn't help for the Statue of Liberty one. It affected everybody in New York City, even the people who didn't see it. It would also reach the sewers.

2. Yeah, power of evil was a general term for "he is evil and powerful." It's more of power of the Triforce of Power, which would be a match for the Force. http://zelda.wikia.com... It is not "feeble."

3. Sadly, Gibbs is pretty much dead. Seems there isn't much for a mortal to do.

I've shown why Ganondorf's barrier is amazing.

Teleporting obviously requires going outside of the dimension, as it is going from Point A to Point B without going anywhere between Point A and Point B.

That is all. I do not reserve the right to create new arguments on the last round. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 3
Logical-Master

Pro

RE: OPPONENT'S REBUTTAL TO STRATEGY #1

1a. Don't have the space to continue this section. Fortunately, 1b makes this okay

1b. I agree (hence why I was the one who stated this initially); there is nothing in the rules which suggest that nothing exist outside of NYC. Since CON is agreeing to this, he has effectively conceded to his central argument against the force as being moot.

2a. Even if CON's reasoning here were sound, it would make no difference. The rules dictate that knocking an opponent out or subduing them in any other manner brings about their defeat. Even if Ganondorf cannot die, this says nothing about him being incapable of being knocked out or subdued. Since it's agreed that the keyblade works on him, enough blows would KO him rather than kill him.

2b. That source states that such is the case for telekinesis. The boom tube is merely one of the functions of a motherbox, not telekinesis.

2c. CON attempts to thwart my usage of the boomtube by claiming that it involves traveling between dimensions. However, CON has provided false information. Here's what his source states:

QUOTE: The "science" of boom tubes has never been explained, (as is normal for the New Gods, though Orion, in the first issue of New Gods, says that a tube "stems from the waves of the mind") but they allow people to travel interstellar distances, and between dimensions, quickly by creating an apparent tube between two points through which people can travel.

Note the phase " to travel interstellar distances, AND between dimensions." In other words, these are two distinct forms of travel (one to travel anywhere in the dimension the other to travel outside the dimension). I've yet to claim that anyone on my team would be traveling to another dimension. CON's source merely PROVES that boomtube usage is well within the rules. Also, there is no known science which explains the boomtube (hence ignore CON's attempt to explain it at the end of R3). Being wrapped in a bubble of energy and then moving at incomprehensible speeds is an easy explanation for going from A to B.

As for Sora, CON is playing semantics. The fact of the matter is that he is insisting that Ganondorf would seal my group inside of a barrier. In other words, an interior which they are sealed in.

d.

-Ganondorf would STILL be unable to get past Amazo (who would possess all of his abilities as well as the abilities of my teammates. CON would have to prove that Ganondorf was more powerful than himself (which is illogical) as well as everyone on my team put together.

-As for Amazo, he can do more than copy metahumans. I specifically stated that I was using the Amazo from the Justice League animated series (base form at that); my link goes right to JLAS Amazo. Last I checked, neither Superman or Martian Manhunter were considered Meta Humans (since they are aliens) and HawkGirl's (alien too) mace as well as Wonder Woman's braces are both magical in nature. You can confirm this in the link I posted in the 1st round. And in my opponents link, you'll note it being stated that he copied Zatanna's magical powers.

3a. No, the 1st pic shows him underground in a position preparing to fire bullets side ways. What CON is insisting is that MasterHand is going to be attacking upwards while protected underground. There is no such technique which enables him to do this.

3b. Heh, well the emphasis in my last response was moreso it working on Sephiroth than anything else. I took the time to point out how powerful Sephiroth was for a reason.

And no, it doesn't bring the walls of rooms crashing inwards as the purpose of the technique is to draw in enemies as well as AP orbs.

There is really nothing else to "know" about the technique.

3c. Gravity doesn't effect masterhand? SSBM disagrees with that ( 0:57 - 1:03 on 1st vid).
As for vacuums, a clear read of the link CON cites shall indicate what kind of irrelevant vaccum CON is talking about.

BOTTOM LINE: When MH is not flying, it is gonna come crashing to the ground like anything else. This idea that he is immune to gravity or can withstand being sucked in by Sora's magnet techniques (in spite of me showing that a far more powerful being can't resist it) is baseless conjecture at best and is thus to be dismissed without any hesitation.

e. No evidence.

4.

-Even if he could do this , it wouldn't matter as the thought bomb technique is ethereal. It's effect is to suck out the target's soul (quote from source, "The thought bomb sucked the souls of its victims into a sphere of dark side energy where they were trapped in an orb of dark torment until the end of time").

-Note that I have specifically stated that Revan would use force powers to render Apocalypse immobile ( hence " verge of insanity or in too poor of mental state to do anything"). This means no retaliation as CON insists

RE: CONs AWESOME STRATEGIES

1.

-It wasn't a "gut thing." He said he "sensed Lord Vader was in danger." See 5:07 on 2nd vid. Again, he sensed this BEFORE Anakin was even harmed. We're not just speaking in terms of 0 second instant; we're talking about negative seconds (precognition to be more precise). Still, since prep time wasn't agreed to, he At very LEAST instantly learns the location of the only 5 other being in the city. Also, he could even find their location faster than that by speeding up his perception of time via force speed.

- Out of space, thus am dropping the "UFO only" point. However, there are different settings on device to toggle through (minutes, days, years)

-About being powerless to do anything about it: I've already contested that Revan could activate his force power faster than K could push the button (both with battle sharpened reflexes to the point of deflecting lazers from blaster bots as well as usage of force speed).

-About force choke: Prolongation only applies when a force wielder is intended to torture his/her victim. Use of this technique at its strongest (which is more commonly referred to as force crush, found on the very page CON is citing) would remedy the issue of K having time to do anything, although use of force speed could also be used to speed up the process while using the weaker version of this technique.

-Once more, Revan could attack Ganondorf with this technique as well. Or heck, he could kill K and THEN starting gripping ganon before he even had time to move.

-At best, one can conclude that it effected everyone who was visually exposed to the light transmitted by the statue of liberty. However, in the lowest regions of the sewers where such light couldn't possibly expose? Or how about if one presses both of their hands over their eyes? This is baseless conjecture (no limits fallacy too :D ). Also, there is no statement which confirms that EVERY SINGLE person in NYC was mindwiped.

2. Ganon: http://en.wikipedia.org.... All known force powers: http://starwars.wikia.com.... Compare. :)

Note my R3 solution which doesn't hinge on this comparison. CON dropped it.

3. Extend.

VOTING ISSUES: CON's most dedicated argument boils down to a film's plot device (the neutralizer from MIB) while using the no limits fallacy (concluding that there are no precautions which could assure that one wasn't harmed by its effects other than the glasses). He offers no evidence which indicates that the rays of the device can penatrate one's hands, must less reach the lowest regions of the NYC sewers and fails to dispute my evidence of Revan simply being fast enough to either assure that the device isn't activated or grab the mother box to bomtube team-LM into the lowest regions of the NYC sewers. The rest of his position is mostly defensive in nature. I see no reason to reiterate/clarify on any other aspect of the debate.

Any new arguments by CON in R4 are to be dismissed.

Cheers. :D
mongoose

Con

1. ---
2.a. That is a good point. However, Ganondorf can sustain hudreds of bombs and still not be knocked out. He can be shot in the face a thousand times and still not be knocked out. It's kind of hard to do with anything besides the Master Sword.
2bc. It wouldn't work if he was just moving at incomprehensible speeds, because then he would be blasting a hole in a wall or anything else in his way.

3a. OK, so he can't fire bullets at you. He can still hide.

3b. Clearly Magneta does not work on everything. Clearly, Master Hand can't be moved by anything in Brawl besides Tabuu's one-hit KO move, while no enemy in Kingdom Hearts is not moved by Magneta. Now we have an irresistable force trying to move an immovable object. It just depends on who has the higher limit. Considering that Master Hand could also spend his time trying to move downwards to counteract the force, it would probably do nothing.

3c. That was not gravity that forced Master Hand down. It was Tabuu's attack. The vaccuum's mentioned in my link don't affect bosses. This includes Master Hand. Master Hand also can't be grabbed or pushed.

3e. See video 1. In the upper right hand corner, there is the 5:00. After five minutes of fighting Master Hand, the player instantly loses a life.

4. If this would truly make Apocalypse indestructable as it should, then he would not be able to lose his soul either. He could do this at the very beginning. This transformation would involve him not using any of his internal organs, so stopping him wouldn't be possible.

AWSOMENESS:

1. Clearly Lord Vader was in danger before he was harmed. He simply sensed that there were enemies near him. That does not mean that he can use the force to sense the future.

If he instantly presses whatever it is (minimun of minutes), then Team L-M would no longer remember to fight him. This gives him time to change it to whatever he wants, out of danger.

You only stated that he could sense using his force powers in an instant. You never responded to me wanting evidence of him using them to affect something else in a short period of time.

Any arguing of further points would be futile on my part. If K gets to do his job, I win this point. Otherwise, I don't once K is dead.

It is reasonable to conclude that it affects all of NYC, as that is what J wanted it to do, and K responded with it. It only works on human minds. This would be all of team L-M. Amazo would also be included, as he is still human. Even if you believed that his being a mutant would make him immune, remember that he copied the weakness of my team, which would include the fact that they are human.

That would be all.
Debate Round No. 4
55 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Infamy: Me > You.

;)
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
All the people who usually hated me didn't this time. It's not right.
Posted by Koopin 7 years ago
Koopin
lol
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Judge feverish RFD for L-M classic round 3, Mongoose vs. L-M.

S&G: Tied

Conduct: Tied.

Arguments: Pro. Mongoose seemed to present mostly defensive strategies and posted shorter arguments that didn't make full use of the character limit. L-M presented a wide range of attacking strategies with clear evidence and good examples to back up all of his points.

In round one Pro presents several strategies for defeating team Con. The only point that doesn't entirely convince me is that Revan would be able to only sense but also pinpoint the location of team Con. Con's strategies seem only vaguely defined in comparison and his main argument is the mind wipe, which is the only way I see his team having enough time to execute the other strategies.

As the debate goes on Pro proves most of the incedental points: Force energy, keyblade's powers against darkness/evil, Master hand and gravity etc. I don't think the locating function of Revan's force sense was ever established but Con's arguments seemed to focus on the physics of force choking vs. button pressing and Pro argued this point very convincingly.

Sources: Both used sources well but Pro takes this category for providing slightly more and for backing up all his points convincingly.

Pro wins.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
A few disclaimers. First, I'm tired so there may be a few typos below. Second, I usually read the comments before I vote as they may elucidate points I could have overlooked. However, it's late and there are 50, so...

C: Tie
S/G: Tie
A: Pro - I'd like to leave a more detailed reason but I'm pretty tired. When it comes to UTW's, I think it's reasonable enough to simply say I believe Pro's strategies were more convincing. In fact, aside from K's mass memory wipe, Con presented no real strategy. Even that was largely defensive in nature and I doubt it would even come to pass with the speed and power available on Team Pro.
S: Pro - I actually wasn't entirely convinced of some of Pro's explanations until I read some of his sources, so this vote goes his way.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
Dude, now you're just repeating nonsense you already spouted. All of what you said has been addressed -- learn how to read.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
"Ok, even if that were true, we're still back to square one -- Master Hand is evading the battle on purpose by hiding; thus, he forfeits."
However, that isn't even a rule. L-M could have made a rule against hiding on purpose, but he didn't. Therefore, all of mongoose's actions were legal, and neither L-M nor mongoose would win.

"It depends on what you view as stalling. Personally, I'd consider the enemy stalling as being subdued from battle. :D"
That would ignore the fact that Master Hand is willing to fight anybody who reaches him.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
If people did live down there, they would pay taxes.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
<"Actually, the problem for L-M is that he never established any of his characters to actually be able to reach Master Hand.">

Ok, even if that were true, we're still back to square one -- Master Hand is evading the battle on purpose by hiding; thus, he forfeits.

Further, I already explained how this strategy is utterly useless.

<"Because who else would claim it? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't let people live beneath NYC without paying taxes.">

Again...uh...you know how far down you can go down, right? And besides, they could try to claim it, but they haven't, and probably couldn't (I don't think the mantle is anyone's property...) People couldn't even live that far down, anyway.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
"Actually, the problem for L-M is that he never established any of his characters to actually be able to reach Master Hand. Basically, it's a stall-out draw."

I did. Sora has a technique to pull him in. Your argument against it was to compare it to a mere side effect in smash bros as well as to claim that master hand would somehow resist its effects and keep going underground.

"And L-M made no rules regarding stalling."

It depends on what you view as stalling. Personally, I'd consider the enemy stalling as being subdued from battle. :D
19 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by shadow835 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by mongoose 7 years ago
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